[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

Wed Jun 28 14:57:36 EDT 2023

The class rules or better common sences engineering rules gives you a way 
out.
If you can not full fil the rules it sayed: Do something equal safe. 

So the simple question is: If you can not build an hatch in - what will be 
equal from a saftey point?

The Titan answer was simple : No hatch. 

Carsten

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
Datum: 2023-06-24T19:57:51+0200
Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" 
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" 
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

Jon, agreed, I don’t know to what level Karl’s sub meets ABS standards.  I 
do know from many conversations with him, that he respects the  engineering 
rules.  He has done things I would not, but I am sure that is true the 
other way round.    If I felt his sub was unsafe like the experts did with 
Titan, then yes, I would suggest taking action.  Have the experts sent 
letters to Karl, I wonder.   When I say Karl is mostly to ABS rules, I am 
refuting the the pressure hull.  The pressure hull is the issue with Titan 
after all.  Titan seemed a nice simple design otherwise.  
Hank

Sent from my iPhone

    On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:38 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
    <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

    How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules?  Because Stanley
    says so?  

    As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines
    in the world; certified and non-certified.  If a sub is not certified
    it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep
    they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it
    meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it.  A non-certified
    vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be
    proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber
    that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard.  It is the
    certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all
    non-certified submarines equal.  I think we may all agree there can be
    obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of
    how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective.

    I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be
    reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and
    I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss
    we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double
    standards or hold everyone to the same standard.

    Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities,
    friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a
    non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000
    feet in an unsupervised environment.  Does PSUBS have a responsibility
    to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation
    because it might be unsafe?

    Jon

    On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via
    Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

    Sean raises a good point.  There is however a big difference.  Karl’s
    sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering
    guidelines.  My issue is not with being classed.  Classing a sub does
    not make it safer, it just proves it is safe.  The boiler plate waiver
    would apply and be sufficient in Karl’s case. 
    Hank

    Sent from my iPhone

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