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<div>Hi Steve,</div><div>I am having trouble understanding the risk with the aluminum tank. If you are diving at max depth your at around 110 lbs pressure. The tank will not collapse if it has 110 psi in it and it is almost empty by then anyways. If the tank did fail it would loose buoyancy, but your sub can easily survive that with the size of your mbt's. </div><div>Hank</div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, January 4, 2018, 7:36:48 AM MST, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:
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<div><div dir="ltr">Cliff, I bought an M60 aluminum O2 tank for external mounting (this was my "perfect" size but couldn't find in steel). However I am thinking about returning it because I have no "math" yet to support it can withstand say 180psi of external pressure (I do not know the wall thickness (yet, asked and am waiting, probably won't get)and the bottom is not rounded etc.). Probably being over concerned here but wanted to be able to defend my designs with data.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Did you have enough data on your aluminum tanks to do calculations?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Steve<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">---- Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote: <br></div><div dir="ltr">> This summer, 5 miles offshore of Islamorada Florida, I spend 5 hours in my<br></div><div dir="ltr">> psub with the hatch closed the entire time. My life was totally in the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> hands of my life support system that was on full automatic control<br></div><div dir="ltr">> throughout the dive. The system worked flawlessly. The oxygen I used was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> commercial welding oxygen I transferred from a cylinder that gets swapped<br></div><div dir="ltr">> out every time I take it into the supplier. I use a whip that connects<br></div><div dir="ltr">> from the HP port of a standard welding regulator to a Swagelok connection<br></div><div dir="ltr">> on an external 1/4" SS tubing manifold that connects four externally<br></div><div dir="ltr">> mounted aluminum medical grade cylinders (2 D size and 2 E size). The HP<br></div><div dir="ltr">> (2,000 psig) oxygen comes through the pressure hull and then has a 1/4"<br></div><div dir="ltr">> high pressure Swagelok valve for isolation. From there the HP Oxygen<br></div><div dir="ltr">> passing directly into small box I call the AMOC unit. AMOC is an acronym<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for Atmospheric Monitoring and Oxygen Control. All life support sensors<br></div><div dir="ltr">> are installed in the AMOC module. These include the O2 pressure, O2 and CO2<br></div><div dir="ltr">> concentrations, relative humidly, cabin pressure, cabin temperature and O2<br></div><div dir="ltr">> flow rate in SLPM. The purpose of the O2 and CO2 sensors are to measure<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the partial pressure of oxygen and of carbon dioxide so that the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> programmable logic controller (PLC) in automatic mode and the pilot in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> manual mode can make the adjustments necessary to maintain the O2 and CO2<br></div><div dir="ltr">> levels within acceptable limits. Because the PLC has data logging, after<br></div><div dir="ltr">> returning from the Islamorada dive I was able to go back and study the life<br></div><div dir="ltr">> support system as well as all the other systems. Having all the life<br></div><div dir="ltr">> support systems sensors in a single module makes it easy for maintenance to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> pull the AMOC box out of the R300 and install an extension cord for the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> electrical signals between the AMOC unit and PLC box and fire up the system<br></div><div dir="ltr">> on the bench. To confirm the life support system was working, I had six<br></div><div dir="ltr">> different volunteers over a one year period with different metabolisms and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> with body weights from 90 lbs to 240 lbs closed up in the boat for over 50<br></div><div dir="ltr">> hours with full data logging to test the system. This enabled me tune the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> PID controller for O2 makeup and give me confidence that the system was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> working. It would not be fun but I am 100% confident I could stay confined<br></div><div dir="ltr">> in my boat for 80 hours and survive.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Cliff<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Although I have worked with some Allen-Bradley type PLCs using ladder<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > logic in the distant past, I work almost exclusively now with programmable<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > automation controllers (PACs), which incorporate on-board<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > field-programmable gate arrays (FPGA) on the same die as a CPU running a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > deterministic real-time operating system (e.g. National Instruments<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > CompactRIO platform). These units are extremely versatile, although<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > considerably more expensive than a PLC. The FPGA, main real-time OS<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > program, and any PC / remote interface programs are all programmed with the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > same software suite, which while accessable to beginners, is unfortunately<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > not a "master it in a weekend" type of deal - I have been developing for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > these for twenty years.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > As for PLCs, I have been uninvolved for too long to give a useful<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > recommendation. Defer to someone who has done more recent research / usage.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sean<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > -------- Original Message --------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On Jan 3, 2018, 19:38, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Thanks Sean,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > good stuff, I feel more confident about using commercial O2 now.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the ABS 23.5 % is quite restrictive. The problem is one rule fits all<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > submarines.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > In a psub there is less that's likely to cause a fire than in a large<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > deisel electric<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ( like Carsten's). The chances of you emptying the contents of your O2 tank<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > & starting a fire at the same time are pretty slim.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > BTW have you come across the EZautomation Ezrack plc at all.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://www.ezautomation.net/ezrackplc/ezrackplc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ezautomation.net/ezrackplc/ezrackplc.htm</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I am looking seriously at it. It says it is fully American! Is that good<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > or bad?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alan<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sent from my iPad<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 4/01/2018, at 2:58 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Per ABS, the inadvertent release of the contents of any single pressure<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > vessel, if stored internally, must not raise the internal cabin pressure<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > more than 1 atm (101.325 kPa) above the normal atmospheric pressure, nor<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > raise the cabin air oxygen concentration above 23.5%. If an oxygen cylinder<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > does not meet these requirements, it must be stored externally.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > So, you can get away with storing any amount internally, provided you use<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > a greater number of smaller vessels.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sean<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > -------- Original Message --------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On Jan 3, 2018, 18:15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alan, It's a long list ! What I need to do is make a check list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > of things I have wrong ;-) and then "things I have wrong but can maybe<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > slide on" ! One question, right of the bat, with that O2 not being<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > able to fill the cabin space more than one atmosphere, I'm not<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > understanding the terminology , how can it be possible to release a volume<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > of air from a bottle WITHOUT raising the pressure above one atm if your are<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > already at one atm ?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I should go around my sub with a video camera inside and out and you could<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > really get an idea of what I need ! For instance I know I need an<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > additional ballast tank HP cylinder.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --- <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs." href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.">personal_submersibles@psubs.</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > org><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:52:57 +1300<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > fire away; there are a few people on psubs that are familiar with GL & or<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > ABS.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alan<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sent from my iPad<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 4/01/2018, at 1:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Great info Alan ! BTW I need to pick your brain on some of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Lloyd's or ABS regs or equivalent.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --- <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs." href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.">personal_submersibles@psubs.</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > org><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:22:59 +1300<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > here is a link with some info.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="https://www.padi.com/padi-courses/emergency-oxygen-provider" target="_blank">https://www.padi.com/padi-courses/emergency-oxygen-provider</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > The best way about it is to enquire at your local dive shop as they will<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > probably run a course if they have a few interested people.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alan<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sent from my iPad<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 4/01/2018, at 1:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I did an Emergency O2 providers course at a dive shop that sold O2.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Now have a card with my face on it.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I don't know if there are any regulations, but I get on well with the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > manager<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > & this is what he was happy with me doing before he would fill O2.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > This was the easiest option, cheap & Only a couple of nights.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I think if I went to any dive shop in the World & pulled out my Padi O2<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > card<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > they would be happy to fill. Also we are carrying O2 so are able to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > provide it<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > in a diving emergency, so thats an advantage to divers.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Medical O2 providers may also be convinced to fill for you if you have the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > card.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > The other option for me was to do a mixed gas diving course which is much<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > more expensive & intense.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Cheers Alan<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sent from my iPad<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 4/01/2018, at 12:16 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Alan, What's involved with getting a O2 cert for administering<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > O2 ?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Brian<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --- <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs." href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.">personal_submersibles@psubs.</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > org><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 11:21:46 +1300<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Steve,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > not the most experienced but this is what I'm doing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I have 2 steel O2 cleaned tanks. ( 2 tanks as per GL for redundancy)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I have O2 cleaned scuba regulators & get my tanks filled at a dive shop.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Had to have an emergency O2 provider cert first.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I believe Nuytco were using composite tanks at one stage.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > O2 tank options & fitting options here. (EMT medical)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://www.emtmedicalco.com/OXYGEN-CYLINDERS-ALUMINUM-" target="_blank">http://www.emtmedicalco.com/OXYGEN-CYLINDERS-ALUMINUM-</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > STEEL-COMPOSITE_c64.htm<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > You will need a tank fitting suitable for where you intend filling i.e.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > dive shop<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > or medical O2 supplier. Then you will need a compatible regulator . If you<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > were<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > heading across country for a few dives maybe have interchangeable fittings<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > or<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > spare tanks with different fittings if you need to switch between medical<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > & dive<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > suppliers. ( I haven't heard this discussed before)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I have heard people say that medical & commercial O2 tank swap people don't<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > like the idea of their tanks going under the water. They also may require<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > some<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > sort of certificate from you before they fill.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Have read of deaths from people using commercial rather than medical O2,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > but<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > this would be 100% O2 inhaled straight in to the lungs.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Phil offered to sell his O2 add system to Psubbers.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I am using a paediatric flow meter set at a minimal flow & are topping up<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > via<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > 3 x O2 sensors wired to my PLC & operating a solenoid valve on the low<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > pressure<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > O2 line. The PLC will be comparing the 3 readings & going with the average<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > the 2 readings closest to each other. The PLC will notify me when the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > range of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > one O2 sensor is out relative to the other 2 or the reading of the nearest<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > 2 differ<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > by a certain amount & may need replacing. I think the life of a sensor is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > only<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > a year or so depending on the heat it is stored at. Being a small one<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > person sub<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I need to be a lot more careful as the O2 % can change a lot more quickly.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Cheers Alan<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Sent from my iPad<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 4/01/2018, at 7:10 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I tried to search the archives but it wasn't very friendly. Sorry to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > again ask about something I know has probably been discussed.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I wanted to double ck. my O2 strategy. After some investigation it seems<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I will buy a new steel high pressure oxygen tank for external mounting. My<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > plan is to have it refilled with "commercial grade" O2 vs. medical grade<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > 02. As long as I keep my "personal" tank and not allow the filler to swap<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > tanks I should create a "chain of custody" that will help me feel good<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > about not having contamination.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > I am wondering how others are managing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Thanks,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Steve<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > 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