<div dir="ltr">Hank,<div>I would suggest that you take the hull section that was cut from your port frame and send it to a Materials Test Lab . ( probably the same company that is going to do your ultrasound can do it ) . Have them do a " Guided Bend Test " on the coupons they cut from it .</div><div> If you have it done professionally you will have unequivocal proof of your weld integrity . The lab is well practised in this type of test and has all the proper equipment . Without the coupon guide/bending jig that fits in the hydraulic press it is difficult for an individual to get reliable results .</div><div> When you send your sample to the lab ask them to do " Side Bends " on the coupons that they cut from your welded plate instead of "Face" and "Root" bends . Performing side bends puts you solidly in the realm of the rigorously high standards of ASME PVHO .</div><div> With a design depth of 914 meters (3000fsw) you are in the big leagues now and the peace of mind that comes from a professionally done test will be priceless .</div><div>Dan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
<div>River,</div><div>I agree the pressure test is of little value determining fatigue life. My goal was to establish if the engineering is good and if the welds would fail. Mission accomplished. Before the pressure test I was going to do an ultrasound test but decided to do a preliminary dye penetrant test. I figure why spend 1,000 dollars on a test that needs to be repeated after the pressure test. My next step is the ultrasound test and I have a hull section that was cut out for the port frame with the weld going through the middle. I will cut that piece up and bend it to prove the weld quality.</div><div>Hank</div><div><br></div>
<div id="m_6218710449529231267yahoo_quoted_6051933174" class="m_6218710449529231267yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a"><div><div class="h5">
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On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, 6:18:15 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
</div></div><div><div id="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622"><div><div><div class="h5"><p dir="ltr">Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds, overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys, the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions:</p>
<p dir="ltr">From the ABS rules (2017):<br>
Section 6/9:</p>
<p dir="ltr">Fatigue (2002) A fatigue analysis is to be submitted when it is anticipated that the life time full range pressure cycles N will exceed that obtained from the following equation: </p>
<p dir="ltr">N = [1160(3000 – T)/(Kfτ – 14500)]^2 </p>
<p dir="ltr">where</p>
<p dir="ltr">T = temperature in degrees C (degrees F) corresponding to application of the cyclic or repeated stress<br>
K = 5688 SI/MKS units (4 U.S. units) <br>
fτ = range of cyclic stress kg/mm2 (lb/in2) </p>
<p dir="ltr">Pressure cycles of less than full pressure are to be included in N in the ratio p/P where p is the actual pressure of the cycle under consideration and P is the design pressure. <br></p>
<p dir="ltr">Sean</p>
<br><br></div></div><div class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:</div></div><blockquote class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><div><div class="h5"><div>I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. <br></div><div> <br></div>All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine...<br clear="all"></div></div><div><div><div class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><div><div class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_signature"><div><br></div><div dir="ltr">-River J. Dolfi<div><br><div><a href="tel:(412)%20997-2526" value="+14129972526" target="_blank">412-997-2526</a></div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:rdolfi7@gmail.com" target="_blank">rdolfi7@gmail.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br></div></div><div class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="m_6218710449529231267yiv5214353622gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>><br>
To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles<br></div></div><span class="">
<<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question<br></span>
Message-ID: <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:674133299.2545129.1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank">674133299.2545129. 1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com</a>><span class=""><br>
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Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank<br>
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On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick?<br></span><span class="">
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan<br></span><span class="">
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank<br></span><span class="">
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br>
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?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even t!
housands
of pounds p!<br>
er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance<br></span><div><div class="h5">
On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank<br>
On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed.<br>
On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank<br>
On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts.<br>
1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness.<br>
Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem.<br>
Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight!<br>
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<br>
Best,<br>
Alec?<br>
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On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick?<br>
On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian<br>
<br>
--- personal_submersibles@psubs. org wrote:<br>
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From: Private via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs. org><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question<br>
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400<br>
<br>
Hi David,<br>
Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance.<br>
Best,<br>
Alec<br>
On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Hi David,<br>
In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips.<br>
Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank".<br>
Greg Cottrell<br>
<br>
From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs. org><br>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question<br>
<br>
Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated.<br>
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Best Regards,<br>
David Colombo<br>
<br>
804 College Ave<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404<br>
<a href="tel:(707)%20536-1424" value="+17075361424" target="_blank">(707) 536-1424</a><br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.SeaQuestor.com" target="_blank">www.SeaQuestor.com</a><br>
<br>
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On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs. org> wrote:<br>
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Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself".<br>
!!!!!!!<br>
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:alecsmyth@gmail.com" target="_blank">alecsmyth@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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Hi Roberto,<br>
I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Alec<br>
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg> wrote:<br>
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Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code,<br>
Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd )<br>
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