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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-NZ link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan, Sean, Hank,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks guys for bringing it up. It is this insidious creeping or lowering of standards which is happening with some people taking shortcuts and others buying equipment which is being dumbed down. It is not deliberate and often due to lack of knowledge but old-school procedures and tradesmen are getting more in short supply. I used to own and run an ASME shop for our vessels for compressors. Now I am guilty of buying welders that are not man enough for the job that we are in danger of using for some structural use on 300 hp recip compressor skids. We are farming these skids out to be made as I sold off all the gear I used to have. I am now just in the process of updating the drawings to include minimum weld specs as a result of this thread. Our old drawings were adequate because we used to have the right guys and the right machines. I know this sort of discussion has come up before but I am grateful for the reminder and I should not have to be reminded. We had 2 competitors one in Korea and one local whose skid frames were made of 10 inch RHS with nice looking welds. Both of them fell apart at the welds. They were subject to vibration but if they had been welded properly they would have held together. Hank, you are doing some awesome stuff but sometimes it is good to have these pro’s put some theory to the situation. We all have some really interesting stories to tell which are relevant to what we are doing. I would love to sit around a fire with you guys and some drink and hear them but I enjoy this forum in its place. Best regards, Hugh<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 20 September 2017 8:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>My feelings are not hurt at all ;-) I have big shoulders. About four years ago, I was asked to lift an 8 unit condo building and replace the foundations. An engineer on site told the condo board it could not be done. This is kind of the same thing to me. I respected the engineer greatly as I do your knowledge. By the way the owners of the 8 unit condo building are enjoying the new basements I installed under the building that could not get new basements.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>I did cupon tests as per your instructions and they passed perfectly. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Lets not waste anymore of your time on this and I will concede that Elementary 3000 is doomed ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Hank<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yahoo_quoted_6371163759"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 2:26:12 PM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div id=yiv0940607833><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Thank you River ! <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Very well said ! This is why I suggest that a licensed experienced welding engineer be consulted .<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Hank,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Yes, It's possible to produce a very pretty ( appearance wise ) multi-pass weld with a low end MIG welding machine . But there is a big difference between what is pretty and will be structurally sound over the long term . I will say it one more time , Yes it might be a very pretty weld but it is brittle and given the right circumstances it will fail . <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>The next time I get out to the west coast I will stop by your place . We will have you weld up a test coupon and I will show you how to destructively test to ASME standards . I am confident the results will surprise you . <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>I was hesitant to respond originally to this MIG welding reference in this thread because I knew there would be hurt feelings and possibly start a flame war . I can assure you I have better things to do with my time then argue about something like this . But I decided that if I can keep even one person from being harmed then it would be worth it . If we don't look out for the inexperienced people in the group the government will do it for us and we definitely won't like what happens next .<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Dan<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=yiv0940607833yqt62784><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single pressure test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the service life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture toughness (aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each cycle, as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool our money and buy an ultrasound machine...<br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>-River J. Dolfi<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>412-997-2526<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><a href="mailto:rdolfi7@gmail.com" target="_blank">rdolfi7@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#26282A'>Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.or g</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_submersi bles</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-request@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles-request@ psubs.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-owner@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles-owner@ps ubs.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)<br><br><br>------------------------------ ------------------------------ ----------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC)<br>From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>><br>To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles<br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question</span><br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:674133299.2545129.1505841822312@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank">674133299.2545129.15058418223 12@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br> Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a 60% duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the experts but Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day long but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested it a lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain my pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld sheet metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is it ;-)Hank<br><br><span class=yiv0940607833> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br> Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty factory fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel where the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it still looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a saying amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If it is a critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always have penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a pressure vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick "pun intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally or make darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick?<br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br>Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just relying on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday ! ?:)Dan<br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br> Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i would not want to encourage anything else.Hank<br><span class=yiv0940607833> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br> ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before doing so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p!<br> er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can hurt you " .Dan Lance<br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br> Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I hear all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to crank er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need sufficient penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded Elementary 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.Hank<br><span class=yiv0940607833> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs like full penetration where quality trumps speed.</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><br> Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material, the external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big difference is guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are professional welders.Hank<br><span class=yiv0940607833> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of about 1/8" is left between the two parts.</span><br>1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the air gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate thickness.<br><span class=yiv0940607833>Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem.</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight!</span><br><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Best,</span><br>Alec?<br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br>Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your first pass.Rick?<br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br>I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .?Brian<br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>--- personal_submersibles@psubs. org wrote:</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>From: Private via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Hi David,</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan Lance.</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Best,</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Alec</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Hi David,</span><br>In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips.<br><span class=yiv0940607833>Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank".</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Greg Cottrell</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span><br><span class=yiv0940607833> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span><br><span class=yiv0940607833> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question</span><br><br>Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped to northern California from southern California. even though its only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated.<br><br>Best Regards,<br>David Colombo<br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>804 College Ave</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Santa Rosa, CA. 95404</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>(707) 536-1424</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833><a href="http://www.SeaQuestor.com" target="_blank">www.SeaQuestor.com</a></span><br><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.%20org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself".</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>!!!!!!!</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth <<a href="mailto:alecsmyth@gmail.com" target="_blank">alecsmyth@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Hi Roberto,</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a project page or something so we can follow progress!</span><br><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Best,</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Alec</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.o%20rg">personal_submersibles@psubs.o rg</a>> wrote:</span><br><br>Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled ,code, non code,<br><span class=yiv0940607833>Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd )</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>______________________________ _________________</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.or">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.or</a> g</span><br><span class=yiv0940607833><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l" 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