<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/><title></title></head><body><p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">There are many dead aircaft'sin the ocean, </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">but there are no dead submarine's in the sky..<br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">:-)</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Datum: 2017-07-16T02:46:00+0200</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></p>
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<div>Hank,</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">I agree no rules; it's like putting traffic lights in at the junction of two</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">metal roads in the middle of Alaska. If there is no traffic it doesn't </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">justify it. I mean how many submarines do you see buzzing about!</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Aircraft can fall out of the air & kill innocent members of the public,</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">submarines just sink, so even that comparison isn't warranted. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Only issue I can see is surfacing, where you might come up in front </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">of a speed boat. Diving in shipping lanes or near underwater dam</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">outlets where you may get sucked in & block a pipe!</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Alan</div>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br />Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br />On 16/07/2017, at 12:16 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br /><br /></div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3744">Alan,</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3744" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3954">I think we might be over reacting if we think Psubs are dead with rules. I just had a look at Canadian rules for ammeter built aircraft. It is not a big deal, in fact you have to </span>demonstrate that at least 50% of the aircraft is home built. The ministry will consider any engine you want except solid rock fuel LOL</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3744" dir="ltr"> Basically you have to build with proper materials, demonstrate a design that is airworthy and have it inspected. </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3744" dir="ltr">It would not be the end of Psubs if we had to follow these rules, witch I highly doubt in Canada anyways. Not that I want rules--that is the last thing I want.</div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500163343609_3744" dir="ltr">Hank</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;"> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:16 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br /></span></div>
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<div>I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines. </div>
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<div>Keith T.</div>
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<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></div>
<div>Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00)</div>
<div>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></div>
<div>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3719">Hank,</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3718"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3717">you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.</span></div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3860" dir="ltr">The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned Underwater</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3963" dir="ltr">Vehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen <a href="mailto:willkohnen@hydrospacegroup.com">mailto:willkohnen@hydrospacegroup.com</a></div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_4010" dir="ltr">They have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, & MUV</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_4075" dir="ltr">have set up a committee to do this. So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we should</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_4121" dir="ltr">have been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved!</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_4136" dir="ltr">Regards Alan</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3881">Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals.</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3651" dir="ltr"><hr id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3657" size="1" /><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3658" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;"><strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></strong> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br /> <strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></strong> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> <br /> <strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></strong> Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM<br /> <strong><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform<br /> </span></div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500118513386_7485"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500118513386_7516">Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! Why do anything? Alan just say "In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons. I don't think (hope) they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore. A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.</span></div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500118513386_7484">Hank</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;"> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /></span></div>
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<div>Jon,</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">any thoughts on where we want to go with this?</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">in this regard. </div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that had</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulations</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I could</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of </div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Regards Alan</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature"> </div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature"><br clear="none" /><br clear="none" />Sent from my iPad</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3754"><br clear="none" />On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /><br clear="none" /></div>
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<div>Jon,</div>
<div>My two bits for what it’s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don’t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ‘primary contributor’ would miss the point – BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs – personal or commercial, in the first place?</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3757">As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements – I’d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door!</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500149500145_3761">Phil Nuytten</div>
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<div><strong>From:</strong> <a title="personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Alan via Personal_Submersibles</a></div>
<div><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM</div>
<div><strong>To:</strong> <a title="personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">Personal Submersibles General Discussion</a></div>
<div><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform</div>
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<div>OK get your point Jon on not being invited.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Lets insist in our inclusion.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">down the "Rules " path, where does it end!</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature"><br clear="none" />Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br clear="none" />On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /><br clear="none" /></div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5627">Alan,</span></div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"> </div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_10549">My thoughts.</span></div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"> </div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5430">Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it</span> rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee?</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan?</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question.</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Jon</div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5398" dir="ltr"><span id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5397" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;">On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /></span></div>
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<div id="yiv2254431868yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5307">Jon,</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">it.</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,</div>
<div id="yiv2254431868AppleMailSignature">where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps</div>
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