<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Jon,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">any thoughts on where we want to go with this?</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">in this regard. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that had</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulations</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I could</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Regards Alan</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div>Jon,</div>
<div>My two bits for what it’s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation,
regulations, etc., are just what we don’t need more of . . I am a life-member of
MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be a ‘primary contributor’
would miss the point – BTW, who asked MTS to become involved in subs –
personal or commercial, in the first place?</div>
<div>As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with
world-wide certification agency requirements – I’d hate to see yet another
player get their foot in the door!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Phil Nuytten</div>
<div> </div>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">Alan via Personal_Submersibles</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">Personal Submersibles General
Discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to
inform</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
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<div>OK get your point Jon on not being invited.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Lets insist in our inclusion.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers
have to abide by in the</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">boat building industry, that a private boat builder
doesn't have to.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you
make them rules nobody</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just
to interpret The G.L. rules</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified.
So as Carsten says if you go</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">down the "Rules " path, where does it end!</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">In general society doesn't care too much if you kill
yourself as long as you don't</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children
can climb trees without a </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America
I read that over a 10 year</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">period 10% of members of the hang glider association
died from accidents.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">If they were injuring others in the process that
would be where the rule makers</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">would step in. As I have said, the only difference
between a submarine & a small</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from
passengers) is if somebody </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the
law makers happy & just </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving
in shipping lanes!</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"> </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"> </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5627">Alan,</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span><br></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_10549">My thoughts.</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span><br></span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5430">Will Kohnen and I are not strangers,
neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended
their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find
it</span> rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting
personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and
without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of
it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel
assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is
given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting
system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because
they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their
committee?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Logic has to make sense
in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS
starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be
used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include
rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a
unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx,
Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the
rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going
to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they
hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them
they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical
plan?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">I have reached out to the
CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship
with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they
are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so
intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not
a rhetorical question.</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Jon</div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5304" style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5398" dir="ltr"><font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5397" size="2" face="Arial">On Friday, July 14,
2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>
wrote:<br></font></div><br><br>
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<div id="yiv6563331571">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5302">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5307">Jon,</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Scott said that if anyone wanted to
contribute to contact Will Konen.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Perhaps you could approach him on our
behalf & convey our desire</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">to be involved in the process. There
were a couple of Psubbers involved</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in the submersible side of UI when I
was there. I think Vance & Lance!</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Will had a slot to fill in the
lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so he seems to have a pretty positive
attitude toward us. As he heads the</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submersible side of the UI he has been
a target & questioned by groups</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">like Coast Guard about "what do we do
about submarines". They have been</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">wanting him to draught regulations for
years & he has been trying to avoid</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">it. </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In my thinking, the only real issue
with submersible operations is surfacing,</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">where a submarine may come up in the
path of a surface craft. Perhaps</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">some regulations on the support boat
having to display a dive flag & be</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in communication with the submersible,
or a buoy deployed from the </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submarine prior to surfacing in
autonomous use.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In N.Z. you can make a small boat in
your backyard & take it out in a howling</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">gale & 5 metre swells, with the
one proviso that you wear a life jacket;</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so I don't think making submarine
rules regarding sea-worthiness would be </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">relevant.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Alan</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"> </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"> </div></div></div>
<div> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>
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