<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>OK get your point Jon on not being invited.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Lets insist in our inclusion.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">down the "Rules " path, where does it end!</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"> </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5627">Alan,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_10549">My thoughts.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5430">Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it</span> rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Jon</div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5399"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5306" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5305"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5304"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5398"><font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5397"> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5303"><div id="yiv6563331571"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5302"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5307">Jon,</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">it. </div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the </div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket;</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be </div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">relevant.</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Alan</div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"><br></div></div></div><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>