<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Scott,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I met Will at the Underwater Intervention Convention 3 years ago,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">& he told me that authorities were pressing him for a set of rules /</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">guidelines for managing personal submersibles. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">He was resisting having to do this, & it looks like he has finally been</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">pushed in to it. A number of Psubbers know him & I am sure he would</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">be willing to put any draft regulations to the group for discussion if</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">we request that. Is Vance part of this board?</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Alan<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 13/07/2017, at 5:55 AM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><div>Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Scott Waters</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div id="composer_signature"><div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" dir="auto">Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone</div></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:#000000"><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Date: 7/12/17 12:30 PM (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform </div><div><br></div></div><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div></div><div>I have been following the conversation about the bathtub sub with definite interest. Thank you Juergen for sharing it. I definitely agree with the though raised by River and Steve that we may have a moral or ethical obligation to at least try to inform them about the serious danger of their boat. Ultimately I agree with Ludwig, Hank and Carsten that they really won't care about safety standards. As Hank suggested it does appear to be sort of a "joke" to them. I think that is accurate. </div><div><br></div><div>In regards to "informing" people interested in this hobby, I definitely think we would be the right group to do it.<br><br>I am currently the national chairman of the Federation of State medical Boards. We are a national organization created by individual state medical boards to create a forum to ensure and promote patient safety through appropriate licensing and discipline of United States physicians.</div><div><br></div><div>In fact we have no specific authority granted by government or otherwise but we have 112 year history of creating work groups, coming to consensus and then creating "best practices" documents that gets distributed back to our state medical Boards. </div><div><br></div><div>Very often, the documents that we create become individual state law without any changes but again this is only because the people receiving them respect the work that is done by the group and understand that lots of really informed people have come together to create something that protects patients. </div><div><br></div><div>In this regard, PSUBS would be the ideal group to come up with guidelines for safety when building. </div><div>If nothing else, it may help us down the road if regulation is considered to say "we don't need government. We already have a policy". Or if a policy IS enforced by government, maybe our policy could be considered and adopted which would at least allow us to control the conversation. </div><div><br></div><div>All of this is really just a long way to say "yes. I think it is a good idea." </div><div>At least we could then point to our guidelines when we approach guys like the bathtub builders. </div><div><br></div><div>Just a thought. </div><div>Thanks</div><div>Greg. </div><div><br>On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:03 PM, <a href="mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de">MerlinSub@t-online.de</a> via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><title></title><p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The bathtub itself is mabe not the problem. But look at the outfitting..</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Imagine seating under a hatch, flat and made from plywood. Say 0,45 x 0,6 meter or 0,24 m2 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Means a waterpressure of 240 Kg (500 pound) per meter or 1,44 ts at 6 meter deep. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Question - how many of you would like to seat under a sheet of plywood and somebody put 1,5 ts of lead bars on it?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">In the center of the plywood a hole with a plastic pipe periskop made of material for rain drain pipes.. Never designed for any pressure. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">I think this guys will not be intesst to build a real psub. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A real psub will be safe - and the video will be just shared by some 100 - 500 psubers in the world. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">And not 100.000 of kids. I think they want to be build something looking unsafe. And the best way to do is building something unsafe. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Carsten <span style="font-size: 8pt;"> -32 years of accident free submarine operations, okay.. somethimes it was tight..- </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;">Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Datum: 2017-07-12T16:49:46+0200</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Von: "via Personal_Submersibles" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">An: "<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></p>
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<div><span style="color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: small;"><span style="color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">I have a feeling they will be sticking to this adventure for a while. In the last video they had, they dove it down to 6 meters but I don't think they are planning on diving beyond 10 meters (The have it attached to a float on the surface) I already sent them a message but I think everybody should because since they are popular I have a feeling it's going to encourage some more people to do what they are doing. </span></span>
<div>Does anybody know what the strength of those tubes are? </div>
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<div>-Ludwig<br>
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> Sent: Wed, Jul 12, 2017 3:02 am<br> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine<br> <br>
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<div>Hi Ludwig,</div>
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<div id="aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1499845902749_3682" dir="ltr">When I first saw these guys in the first video, I thought the same. When I look at the latest video, </div>
<div id="aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1499845902749_3682" dir="ltr">I get the feeling this is just a joke to them and they are seeking youtube subscribers. They don't seem interested in being responsible at all, and I doubt they will listen to reason. We just have to hope they move on to their next attention seeking adventure before they get hurt.</div>
<div id="aolmail_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1499845902749_3682" dir="ltr">Hank</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;"> On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:15 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br> </span></div>
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<div><span style="color: black; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">I was just going to ask you guys about these people! </span>
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<div>I assume they are not members here, but I would say it's part of our "mission" to reach out and educate them and have them join this group. I think what they are doing is amazing and ambitious, and we should encourage what they are doing but help them make the sub safer before they go about injuring themselves and giving a bad images on personal homebuilt submersibles. </div>
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<div>Here's the link to contacting them through the website and I highly recommend everybody to contact them into joining this group so we can help them with their project.</div>
<div><a href="http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/">http://thereallifeguys.de/kontaktformular/</a></div>
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<div>-Ludwig<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none">
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none"> From: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> Sent: Tue, Jul 11, 2017 7:38 pm<br clear="none"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine<br clear="none"> <br clear="none">
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal">So I wonder if it helps (or is part of our mission) to reach out and educate (or warn).</div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal">Steve</div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong> Personal_Submersibles [<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org?" shape="rect">mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> <strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:44 PM<br clear="none"> <strong>To:</strong> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> <strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine</div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Carsten is right. Every time there is an accident (or a repeated story about an accident) we all get closer to being shut down.</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"> "<a href="mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de">MerlinSub@t-online.de</a> via Personal_Submersibles" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> <strong>To:</strong> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> <br clear="none"> <strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, July 11, 2017 11:45 AM<br clear="none"> <strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Its show just how important it is to design a proper submarine. </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">A drop weight will not help if the boat itself, or the hatch or the windows of such a trash submarine </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">will collapse in estimate 3-5 metre deep. </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">At the end of the road from accidents by such people will be a new law: </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Selfbuilding a submarine without certificate/classification forbitten. </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">And this will end all our hobby for cost reason. </span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">vbr Carsten</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New video of bathtub submarine</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Datum: 2017-07-11T14:57:52+0200</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Von: "Juergen Guerrero Kommritz via Personal_Submersibles" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Here is other video of the bathtub submarine showing an accident in the deep and the importance of the drop weigth</span></div>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="background: white;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51cx_fV5FRk" shape="rect">LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5</a></span></div>
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<h2 style="margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 3.0pt; margin-left: 0in; line-height: 14.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">LEBENSGEFAHR in unserem U-BOOT! | Mit dem BADEWANNEN U-BOOT nach Estland! #5</span></h2>
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<div class="aolmail_yiv4201391177aolmail_MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.25pt;"><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: #999999;">Eigentlich wollten wir im überfluteten Gefängnis in Rummu tauchen, allerdings ist es etwas zu tief - uns reißt i...</span></div>
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