<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div><span>Alec,</span></div><div><span>Your valve looks like it might be explosion proof, that would be an area to investigate.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492304138936_2945"><span>Hank</span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 5:13 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv2783534156"><div><div dir="ltr">Done, I sent you pics directly rather than through the list so I could send higher resolution.</div><div class="yiv2783534156gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv2783534156gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 6:24 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv2783534156gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="yiv2783534156yqt0141132718" id="yiv2783534156yqt53903"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492293097696_12284"><span id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492293097696_12283">Alec, can you send a picture, very interesting</span></div> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span class="yiv2783534156"> </span><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 4:15 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228y_msg_container"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264"><div><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div dir="ltr">I once had a whole box full of these 24V Red Hats, which I never used and ended up selling on eBay. I kept two of them just in case, and pulled them out just now. I believe they're an old style, they have a round body that I no longer see on the current ones, but they've never been used. Well, I just screwed a piece of pipe into one, stuck the end of the pipe in my mouth to "pressurize" the enclosure, and put it under water in the kitchen sink. No bubbles, it's properly airtight. This thing could be pressure compensated really easily. </div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264gmail_quote"><span class="yiv2783534156">On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"></span><blockquote class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264yqt4758913231" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264yqt63568"><div><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div>I have 3 of the red hat style 24V solenoid valves on the ballast tank of my ambient.</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature"> They work really well but they are a tiny bit more complicated than you think</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">& are susceptible to corrosion. Be aware that the most common types of solenoid</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">valves use water or air pressure to help them open, & so are no good on a ballast</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">tank.</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">Hugh, ( who owns a valve firm ) hadn't found a suitable product when we discussed</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">them a few years ago.</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature">Alan</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803AppleMailSignature"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from my iPad</div><div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264h5"><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div><br clear="none">On 16/04/2017, at 8:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div dir="ltr">I use a lot of the new ones - the ASCO "Next Generation" Red Hat valves with 24 VDC coils. The electrical characteristics are excellent, and they perform well in any position. I just use the standard enclosures, but you can get them in NEMA 4X. Don't know how these would take to submerged / compensated use, but they would be pretty easy to modify for that purpose. The housings come with an integral 1/2 NPTF for a conduit fitting - you could easily install a Swagelok tube fitting instead for dielectric oil compensation. ASCO does make a line of solenoid valves for naval / marine use, but these have only the basic coil electronics and a plastic housing that makes them submersible to fifteen feet. Not the ideal coils for battery power though. If I could modify the housing and / or compensate to make them work, I'd be more inclined to use the Next Gen Red Hats.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Sean<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264gmail_quote"><span class="yiv2783534156">On April 15, 2017 12:03:36 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492279326045_3095"><span id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492279326045_3094">I used the red hat valves on my ROV, they are very good quality, but I doubt they are air tight. </span></div> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span class="yiv2783534156"> </span><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803y_msg_container"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479"><div><span class="yiv2783534156"></span><div dir="ltr">There are some Red Hat solenoid valves !
that are
advertised as submersible to 15 feet and have the wires coming out an NPT port, so those could be compensated easily. But they cost a bit more than the air suspension ones.</div><div><div class="yiv2783534156h5"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479gmail_extra"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:27 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479yqt8782214697" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479yqt26369"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3475"><span>Alec,</span></div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3473"><span id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3474">The valves are not air tight, the coil sits in the water. It comes down to cost really. Sean has a nice idea but your looking at </span>thousands. An oil bath valve bank will cost around 500 dollars to set up. In my mind both will work, I am making an oil bath valve bank for Elementary just because I don't know if it might go in salt water. We are happy to fill our motors with oil, why not electro magnets.</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3473"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3473">Greg,</div><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3473">There are tons of air suspension valves on Ebay with switch panels even. I would go with the Valve bank type if your going to oil bath it.</div><div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479h5"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492276904899_3473"><br clear="none"></div> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:44 AM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009y_msg_container"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><span>Hank,</span></div><div><span>Where to get the valves? Thanks, Greg.</span></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt3984715331" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt87669"><div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> </font><hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, April 15, 2017 10:43 AM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] actuated valves?<br clear="none"> </div> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894y_msg_container"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844"><span>Alec,</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844"><span>If you want simple, look at electric solenoid valves for venting the tanks. You can buy 8 valves for 100 dollars. You can plumb the tanks together to create 4 zones or you can install one valve directly to each tank (12) The beauty of using more valves is </span>safety. If one fails, no big issue. You can wire 3 valves together so only need a 5 wire penetrator. The nice thing about this idea is it is cheap to experiment with and!
no
modification to the tanks or sub. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844">you will need check valves on the air feed lines so the tanks are not connected. No point in venting one zone if it can send or receive air to another zone. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844">If you are reluctant to use unprotected valves in fresh water, I can say the ones we used on our log salvage ROV never once gave us a problem in two years of operation. I am talking many thousands of dives, actually one dive every 7 minutes. </div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844">If your in salt water then you may want to go with an electric valve bank with four valves where the valve bank is in an oil tank with a bladder mounted behind the CT. That is how my hydrau!
lic
valve works for my new manipulator. It is fast and easy to set up, and is what I will do for Elementary. In the mean time you can use cheap valves to figure it all out. Your entire fix (experiment) can be under 200 dollars, then go to oil bath solenoids.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1492266198416_2844">Hank</div> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt8361358280" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt11062"><div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:12 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894y_msg_container"><div id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br clear="none"></div><div>I'm mulling over options for re-plumbing Shackleton's MBTs. I can go with re-positioned tubing or remotely actuated valves. In principle the tubing is easier, but I'm trying to think through all possibilities before deciding, and just thought of a new option. There's six tanks per side, and the tanks are small so it would be a challenge to put a mushroom valve inside each tank. Besides, that would be a dozen valves. However, I could also do!
just
two valves per side, mounted outside and above the tanks, with very short hoses or tubes leading from three tanks to each valve. There is space, and because the valves would be outside the tanks I have a lot more freedom for the size or geometry of the valves. Maybe even normal ball valves actuated by a little air cylinder. This system would allow for fore-aft and side-to-side control, and would be highly resistant to list-induced water blocking. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Anyone have thoughts on the KISSest way to control valves? For example, something that could work with unregulated 3K psi air?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br clear="none">Alec</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div></div>______________________________ _________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs. org</a><br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt8361358280" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yiv7500726894yqt34759">______________________________ _________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs. org</a><br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div><div class="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yqt3984715331" id="yiv2783534156m_-1992109030655588228yiv3927414264m_6237280628390813803yiv6312575479m_7110507215100221009yqt61508">______________________________ _________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs. org</a><br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none">______________________________ _________________<br clear="none">
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