<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3327"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3326">Sean,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3039" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3057">I have a plan for total failure of one HP buoyancy tank. Because the buoyancy is so great with two tanks, I need to add a substantial amount of weight to the chassis of the sub. (Elementary 3000) The chassis is the drop weight. With one tank flooded the sub could surface without using the MBT. The MBT would have enough flotation to orient the sub so the hatch could open while the sub is in the water. A layer of protective material can be added to the tank, or it can be encapsulated by fairings.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3039" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1472072822671_3534">Hank</span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:39 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv7845937541"><div><div dir="ltr">I would be very wary of using composite cylinders in submerged service. My understanding is that while the technology is now mature, composite cylinders originally marketed for SCBA use were not certified for SCUBA use due to the risk of cracks in the outer epoxy allowing water to infiltrate and increase the risk of a delamination failure. That could very well have to do with anticipated handling - obviously full submersible pressure hulls have been constructed from GRP etc., so what the real failure risk is I'm not sure. At minimum, I'd be inclined to inspect and possibly even recoat (epoxy) such cylinders on a regular basis.</div>
<div dir="ltr">That aside, I would be hesitant to use pressurized cylinders in this manner (as primary / integral buoyancy) at all, given that a failure of such a system is intolerable. (I assume you're talking about permanent, and not surface buoyancy?) Any crack, collapse or leaky plumbing to such a system results in a catastrophic unrecoverable failure. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Sean<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv7845937541yqt4782665458" id="yiv7845937541yqtfd80886"><div class="yiv7845937541gmail_quote">On August 22, 2016 12:27:57 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<blockquote class="yiv7845937541gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471890267091_3020"><span>Sean,</span></div><div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471890267091_3020"><span id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471890267091_3234">What are your thoughts on using type IV CNG tanks with 3,600 psi operating pressure as buoyancy tanks. The tanks would have full pressure in them at all times. They could also serve as reserve HP air if regulated to stay above ambient.</span></div><div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471890267091_3020"><span>Hank</span></div> <div class="yiv7845937541qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv7845937541yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, August 22, 2016 11:54 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv7845937541y_msg_container"><div id="yiv7845937541"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471886891417_6376"><span>Than you Sean,</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471886891417_6354"><span id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471886891417_6540">I have experimented with this idea already with uncoated wood and in 12 hr at full pressure the wood is no longer buoyant. I do think though, if it was encapsulated reliably it could serve as a cost effective solution. The trick of coarse will be encapsulating it reliably. Also the blocks would have to be in safe locations so they don't get dama!
ged.
I am quite comfortable with the compression of wood, fir in particular. I use fir shims when I lift buildings and I can tell you how heavy a building is by how much the fir compresses. BUT, you have a valid point. I will have to test a lot.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471886891417_6354">Hank</div> <div class="yiv7845937541qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv7845937541yahoo_quoted" style="display:block;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="yiv7845937541yqt4593431275" id="yiv7845937541yqt05432"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, August 22, 2016 11:27 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv7845937541y_msg_container"><div id="yiv7845937541"><div><div dir="ltr">Hank, the little f you are referring to I presume is the lb_f notation? This is an artifact of Imperial / US standard units, which in common usage do not differentiate between mass and force. In SI, the mass unit is the kilogram, and the force unit is the Newton. In Imperial units, the mass unit is actually the slug, but almost nobody uses slugs on a daily basis. Thus, the US standard adopted the pound as a unit of mass, differentiating it from the force unit with the subscripts lb_m and lb_f. That they are equivalent only holds true in standard earth gravity, so in any other gravity field you need to divide the lb_f by 32.2 ft/s^2 to get the mass in slugs, and then multiply by the actual local gravitational acceleration to get the force in lb_f. All in all, it's a mess, which is why I prefer to stick with SI / MKS units for
everything. In any case, 1 lb_m is the mass that weighs 1 lb_f in standard earth gravity.</div>
<div dir="ltr">That out of the way, getting to your actual question, be careful using published material property data, because it can be specific to shape or loading direction. Natural wood is an anisotropic material - it exhibits different mechanical properties in the grain direction than it does cross-grain. Dimensional lumber is usually milled longitudinally with the grain, so this may be what is quoted, but it is ambiguous. Also, while softwood lumber may have mechanical properties similar to that of epoxy foams, the water absorption properties will differ, as I'm sure you're aware from your log salvage experience. Any coating you apply to encapsulate a block of wood will have different mechanical properties than the wood itself, which could lead to a breach of the waterproof integrity, and subsequent water absorption by the wood. I would be very hesitant to consider this, unless you test a few samples experimentally, and also employ routine condition monito!
ri!
ng /
density checks of such parts in service.</div>
<div dir="ltr">Sean</div>
<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv7845937541gmail_quote">On August 22, 2016 10:31:10 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<blockquote class="yiv7845937541gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="yiv7845937541yqt3998157082" id="yiv7845937541yqt17143"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6732"><span>Hi guys, </span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6732"><span>I have forwarded a page with mechanical properties of Douglas Fir wood in this email. There is a rating for compressive strength and it has a little f in the </span>description. Not sure how to interpret that. Can I get an opinion on that. I need to know the compressive strength in psi. This could be a cheap form of buoyancy. I would make a glulam then fibreglass the exterior to waterproof the block. Of coarse as always i would make a sample and put it in my large pressure chamber.</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6732">Thank you in advance</div><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6732">Hank</div><div class="yiv7845937541qtdSeparateBR" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6733"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> <div class="yiv7845937541yahoo_quoted" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6752" style="display:block;"> <div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6751" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"> <div id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6750" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir="ltr" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6749"><font id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6748" size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, August 22, 2016 10:24 AM, xxx xxxxx <mp13@live.ca> wro!
te:<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv7845937541y_msg_container" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6756"><div id="yiv7845937541">
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<div class="yiv7845937541" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6879" style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px;"><font class="yiv7845937541" id="yiv7845937541yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1471882928036_6878" face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font:12.0px Helvetica;">Douglas-Fir | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification ...</font></div>
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