<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6896"><span>Hank,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6897" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8953">below is Herve Jauberts "Intruder" wet sub.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6897" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_9645">It has a can around the outboard motor shaft that is open at the bottom.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6897" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8954">So similar principle of air compensation.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6897" dir="ltr"><span>Alan</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_6897" dir="ltr"><img src="http://www.submarineboat.com/images/submarine/intruder_2.JPG" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8966" data-id="f11ae3f1-19e2-29d2-6b5b-0e9bc623b90e"><span><br></span></div><br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_7595"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_7594"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8608"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8955"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8957"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_8956">From:</span></b> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, June 9, 2015 10:53 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_7593"><br><br clear="none">I am expanding on Brian's idea to have the motor open to the water. A simple hose routed to create traps like your kitchen sink has. The oil can't escape because the hose goes vertical from the motor then loops back down trapping air at the top of the loop. Water can't get in because there is air in the line at the top of the loop. As long as you start with a large enough loop trapping air, the oil will never escape and the water won't get in the motor. Oh ya the hose is open at the end. The pressure is exactly the same on both sides of the seal all the time., An air bubble won't bother anything as long as the air in the hose loop exceeds the volume of an air bubble in the motor. <br clear="none">Hank-------------------------------------------<br clear="none">On Mon, 6/8/15, Private via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_7935">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none"> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433806922621_7596">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 6:28 PM<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Hang on, I'm not<br clear="none"> understanding Brian's suggestion. What exactly are the<br clear="none"> "oil traps"?<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:26<br clear="none"> PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Actually Brian's idea is picking up<br clear="none"> steam in my mind! The power loss your experiencing would<br clear="none"> not happen if the motor is open to the water because the<br clear="none"> motor is truly equal on both sides. <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> Hank--------------------------------------------<br clear="none"> > On Mon, 6/8/15, hank pronk via<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Subject:<br clear="none"> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none"> > To: "Personal Submersibles General<br clear="none"> Discussion" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 5:16 PM<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Alec,<br clear="none"> > I have the same<br clear="none"> problem with my drive on Gamma,<br clear="none"> > when<br clear="none"> returning to the surface the shaft tube is under<br clear="none"> > pressure. I have a ball valve mounted to<br clear="none"> the tube and even<br clear="none"> > a month later there<br clear="none"> is pressure until I open the ball<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> valve. I have tried a softer compensation bladder with<br clear="none"> no<br clear="none"> > luck. There has to be an air<br clear="none"> pocket that we are not<br clear="none"> > getting rid<br clear="none"> of. Brian's suggestion is not bad at all,<br clear="none"> > forget the bladder and rig an open hose<br clear="none"> with traps so the<br clear="none"> > oil can not escape. <br clear="none"> There would be an air space trapped<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> between the oil and water in the length of tube. That<br clear="none"> air<br clear="none"> > bubble would simply move in two<br clear="none"> directions depending on<br clear="none"> > depth. A very<br clear="none"> simple solution, more tricky for you because<br clear="none"> > your motors rotate. I think I will test<br clear="none"> this idea since I<br clear="none"> > have my tail assembly<br clear="none"> off for repairs anyways.<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> Hank--------------------------------------------<br clear="none"> > On Mon, 6/8/15, Alec Smyth via<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> > wrote:<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Subject: Re:<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none"> > To: "Personal Submersibles<br clear="none"> General<br clear="none"> > Discussion" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> > Received: Monday, June 8, 2015, 4:48<br clear="none"> PM<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > OK, let<br clear="none"> me<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > try to reason<br clear="none"> this through again. Lets say the standard<br clear="none"> > trolling motor shaft seal is watertight<br clear="none"> to 50<br clear="none"> > feet, and that<br clear="none"> > initially I had 1 cubic inch<br clear="none"> > of bubble in the system. Dive<br clear="none"> > to 250 feet<br clear="none"> > and<br clear="none"> what I would have thought would happen is<br clear="none"> > that the 1 cubic inch of air would be<br clear="none"> reduced<br clear="none"> > to 1/8th in3<br clear="none"> > due to 8 atmospheres of<br clear="none"> > pressure increase. I would have<br clear="none"> > expected<br clear="none"> > that the<br clear="none"> compensation bladder would have just been<br clear="none"> > squeezed by that volume, and that<br clear="none"> upon<br clear="none"> > surfacing the bubble<br clear="none"> > would go back to 1 in3<br clear="none"> > and the pressure in the motor to 1<br clear="none"> > atm.<br clear="none"> > However, what<br clear="none"> we found was that the motor upon<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> surfacing was significantly pressurized. The<br clear="none"> > compensation<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> bladder (i.e. hose) was<br clear="none"> > visibly<br clear="none"> distended by internal<br clear="none"> > pressure<br clear="none"> upon<br clear="none"> > surfacing. There was no leak at<br clear="none"> the hose<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > clamps,<br clear="none"> but oil was leaking from the shaft seal.<br clear="none"> > Since there was over-pressure<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > surfaced, clearly<br clear="none"> water had to have entered the system<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> during the dive, and as the hose clamps were<br clear="none"> > leak free and<br clear="none"> > the<br clear="none"> seal was not, I suspect<br clear="none"> > the seal. Now<br clear="none"> the question is<br clear="none"> > why water<br clear="none"> > would get in. Bubble greater than the<br clear="none"> compression<br clear="none"> > range of the hose? Seal<br clear="none"> offering less<br clear="none"> > resistance than the<br clear="none"> > hose to compression?<br clear="none"> > Shaft pumping water under the seal<br clear="none"> > during<br clear="none"> > operation<br clear="none"> due to abrasions? Thermal contraction?<br clear="none"> > I'm actually not sure - any theories<br clear="none"> are<br clear="none"> > welcome. One<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> interesting detail - the stern<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> thruster, which was not<br clear="none"> > working due<br clear="none"> to the<br clear="none"> > issue with the speed controller,<br clear="none"> did not<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > have any<br clear="none"> oil leaks. Both side thrusters, operating,<br clear="none"> > did.<br clear="none"> > The side<br clear="none"> > thrusters being feeble can be explained<br clear="none"> by<br clear="none"> > pressure on their<br clear="none"> > seals, or just by their<br clear="none"> > age and related wear on the<br clear="none"> > commutators. I<br clear="none"> > will<br clear="none"> be changing them, or at least their<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > internals.<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Best,<br clear="none"> > Alec <br clear="none"> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at<br clear="none"> > 2:54<br clear="none"> > PM, Jon<br clear="none"> Wallace via<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> > wrote:<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > It sounds<br clear="none"> like at some point water pressure at<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> the<br clear="none"> > seal was able<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > to<br clear="none"> compress the bubble of air in the tube,<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> the<br clear="none"> > opposite of what<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > was<br clear="none"> expected.<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> I'm kind of stumped by<br clear="none"> > the<br clear="none"> description of the<br clear="none"> > motors<br clear="none"> > performance<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> being<br clear="none"> > "feeble" however. <br clear="none"> This couldn't<br clear="none"> > have been primarily<br clear="none"> due to<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> pressure I don't think. Also,<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> isn't an easy<br clear="none"> > fix just to<br clear="none"> > "clamp"<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> the<br clear="none"> > tube any place where<br clear="none"> liquid appears assuming the<br clear="none"> > tube is<br clear="none"> held<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > in<br clear="none"> a vertical position and the bubble is at<br clear="none"> > the top<br clear="none"> > (ie vise<br clear="none"> grip<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> the tube).<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> Jon<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > On<br clear="none"> 6/8/2015 12:01 PM, Brian<br clear="none"> > Cox via<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> Hmm,<br clear="none"> > guess I'm not getting what<br clear="none"> is<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > happening<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > Brian<br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> > mailing list<br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > -----Inline Attachment<br clear="none"> > Follows-----<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yqt2016450967" id="yqtfd65768"><br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> > <br clear="none"> ><br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> > <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>