<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8038"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8371">Thanks Ken, </span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8036"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8037">I am pretty sure I have the schematic in one of my folders. Have moved recently:)</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8033">I have a couple of different BLDC escs, 3 phases. They are designed for the RC hobby</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8586">market, but some of the hobby motors are pretty serious units. There is a lot of hacking</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8640">going on, with people using the motors and escs for E bikes, scooters etc.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8953">Unfortunately our submarines tend to have longer wire runs than these other vehicles.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span>I need to learn a bit more.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span>Alan</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8032"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8031"><span><br></span></div><br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7659"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7658"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8029"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8254"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8030"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 8, 2015 12:51 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7657"><br><div id="yiv3513449662"><style>#yiv3513449662 #yiv3513449662 --
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#yiv3513449662 </style><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7656"><div class="yiv3513449662WordSection1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7655"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7822"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9369">I can dig it up if you think it would be helpful. I’m a little pessimistic about it helping.</span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7823"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_7654"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8086">Don’t know if your motor controller/Inverter is soft switching or not. I suspect it’s hard switching since they are lower cost.</span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8092"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8093"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8363">I assume it’s a drive for the BLDC motor? Three phases?</span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8104"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8094"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Ken Martindale</span></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8103"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv3513449662yqt4493437823" id="yiv3513449662yqt07719"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8097"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8096"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8095"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8102"> Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan James via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 07, 2015 6:37 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8098"> </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8100"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3631"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8099"><span style="">Ken,</span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3633"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8213"><span style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8212">I had a look on psubs for your motor controller schematic, but couldn't find it.</span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3635"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8218"><span style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8217">I may have copied it some time back, but will take a bit of finding.</span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3637"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8215"><span style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8214">My interest is in BLDC motor controllers, but I assume the " snubber" portion of the wiring</span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3638"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8216"><span style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8219">diagram would work for both.</span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3638"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8235"><span style="">Alan</span></div></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8253"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3644"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3643"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_3642"><div align="center" class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8358"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8357"></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8220"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8222"> Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8359">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8360">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 8, 2015 3:39 AM<br clear="none"><b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8221">Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4730"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8234"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv3513449662"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4733"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4732"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4731"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Alan,</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8252"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8251"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4734"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8231"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8230">Solving the voltage spikes from longer wire length is a difficult problem. If you add capacitors you have to make sure the ripple current in the added capacitors is within the capacitor’s ratings. Depending on where the caps are added they might not help.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8229"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_8228"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4736"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I looked at the caps in the link you sent. The caps look pretty good but they seemed to have a higher voltage rating than you might need.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9531"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9530"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4738"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The best technique is to add a snubber which can dampen the voltage spikes. Sometimes a transient absorber ( a kind of a Zener) can be used.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9533"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9532"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4740"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The easiest thing to try is making the leads to the motor shorter and or twisted. You might try a coax if you can find one that will carry the current.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The key thing on your wires is to run them side by side avoiding a loop between the wires. Making the wires larger can help a little but not usually enough.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4741"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">In my controller I used a fairly complex snubber to reduce the voltage spikes. I believe the schematic of my controller is somewhere on the Psubs website.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4742"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Anyway, good luck, not a simple problem.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4744"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Ken Martindale</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4746"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9536"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9535">PS For what it’s worth my controller never had a problem.</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9540"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9539"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yqt51076"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4750"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4749" style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4748"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9538"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9537"> Personal_Submersibles [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org">mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan James via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:47 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none"><b id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4751">Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4752"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4755"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3270"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Thanks Ken,</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3269"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433716068748_4754"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3269"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Is there an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually used?</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3269"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I was looking at this option.</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3269"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf">http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-charts-engl-deut.pdf</a></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3269"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Alan</span></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3340"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3339"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3338"><div align="center" class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9543"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9542"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9541"> Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <</span><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9544">><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <</span><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433724754170_9545">> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM<br clear="none"><b id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3342">Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3347"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3346"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3345"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3344"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes.</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3355"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3349"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Ken Martindale.</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3350"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yqt94512"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3352"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3351" style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3354"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> Personal_Submersibles [</span><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan James via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3465"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3442"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3464"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Thanks for the report Alec, great stuff.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3463"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">re the motor controllers; I've been reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery to</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3670"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">motor controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3461"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">This could be a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things like golf carts</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3459"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">& wheel chairs.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3458"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">My reading has been mainly about BLDC motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushed</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3456"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">motors would be similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the motor, there is a</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3454"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">current surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the wire run, the more the power in the surge.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3452"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">A water analogy would be turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes with</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3450"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">a "thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3449"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Hugh mentioned he had problems with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3447"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Attached is the problem & solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery wire; </span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3445"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">however there must be a better way.</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3444"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Regards Alan</span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433637403143_3676"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523">too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - RC Groups</a></span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662enhancrCard_0" style="margin-top:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;"><table class="yiv3513449662MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="675" style="width:337.5pt;border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr style="height:.75pt;"><td colspan="8" rowspan="1" style="background:#E5E5E5;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:.75pt;"><div 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colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="10" style="width:5.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="1" style="width:.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;"></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"> </a></span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12450"><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"> </a></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"> </a></span></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12453"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12452"><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12451"><div align="center" class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div align="center" class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br clear="none"><b id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_16533">To:</b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br clear="none"><b id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_16531">Sent:</b> Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM<br clear="none"><b id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_16528">Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca</span></a></span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yui_3_16_0_1_1433621245176_12454"><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"><br clear="none">Alec,<br clear="none">I don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode. <br clear="none">I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail.<br clear="none">If you want the controller send your address of list.<br clear="none">Hank<br clear="none">--------------------------------------------<br clear="none">On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none">To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br clear="none">Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Hello friends,<br clear="none">I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with<br clear="none">Dan Lance and thought I'd share how it went. This was<br clear="none">supposed to be a two sub trip with Scott Waters, but<br clear="none">unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it ended<br clear="none">up being just Snoopy.<br clear="none">On the way up the weather was terrible, with<br clear="none">driving rain so heavy I could barely see the lines on the<br clear="none">road. It had been raining heavily for several days<br clear="none">previously. Three times there were emergency announcements<br clear="none">about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer<br clear="none">I got the harder it rained. The problem with all that rain<br clear="none">is that in your typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility<br clear="none">for weeks. That is what happened last year when Trustworthy<br clear="none">and Snoopy rendezvoused at Summersville Lake, and it looked<br clear="none">very much like this would be a repeat. I'm happy to say<br clear="none">Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only reduced<br clear="none">the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those<br clear="none">were clearer than most lakes.<br clear="none">Here's a few things we learned:<br clear="none">1) Of props and shroudsThe stern<br clear="none">thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had<br clear="none">tested it successfully before leaving. I opened up the<br clear="none">enclosure, pressed down all the spade connectors, and found<br clear="none">it now worked - so attributed the issue to road bumps.<br clear="none">However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a<br clear="none">spare speed controller, so switched it out. <br clear="none">The replacement died within five minutes on the<br clear="none">second dive. This time at least the cause was obvious, the<br clear="none">prop was jammed by weeds. The current Minnkota props have a<br clear="none">little twist at the end of the blades, and Snoopy's<br clear="none">shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist to<br clear="none">the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and<br clear="none">shroud to jam tight, and had already smoked one controller<br clear="none">during the convention in the Keys. I'm going to put the<br clear="none">prop on the lathe and take off the tips to eliminate the<br clear="none">pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a little so<br clear="none">the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way,<br clear="none">the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little<br clear="none">below the controller spec current draw, so perhaps those<br clear="none">specs are optimistic. Anyway, as a result of the double<br clear="none">failure all of our dives were done on just the side<br clear="none">thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers.<br clear="none">Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a<br clear="none">controller bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple<br clear="none">on/off switches if a speed controller fails. They're<br clear="none">electronic, they will fail.<br clear="none">2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil<br clear="none">Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and<br clear="none">this has showed up a puzzling issue with the thrusters. They<br clear="none">were feeble during dives, one died altogether on one dive,<br clear="none">and they kept coming up leaking oil. At first we thought the<br clear="none">seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical<br clear="none">incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm<br clear="none">supply store that sold things like tractor spares (viva<br clear="none">trolling motor simplicity!) When I disconnected the bladder<br clear="none">hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. The motor turned out<br clear="none">to be pressurized. <br clear="none">Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity<br clear="none">of air left in the system it would not be an issue so long<br clear="none">as the compression volume of that air could be handled by<br clear="none">the flexibility of the hose (aka compensation bladder.)<br clear="none">Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the dive exceeds<br clear="none">the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a bubble<br clear="none">of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the<br clear="none">bubble stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble<br clear="none">squeezes oil and water back out until the pressure in the<br clear="none">motor falls to the "cracking pressure" of the<br clear="none">seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals are<br clear="none">fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small<br clear="none">bubble is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going<br clear="none">to put set screws on the motor caps so I can get rid of the<br clear="none">bubbles more easily.<br clear="none">3) An easy way to add<br clear="none">buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by<br clear="none">placing trawl floats in PVC tubes. On one occasion, the<br clear="none">oncoming passenger's weight required the addition of<br clear="none">just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more<br clear="none">than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't<br clear="none">suited up and the water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a<br clear="none">float under the lip of the forward MBT. It worked like a<br clear="none">charm, and the float even stayed in place throughout the tow<br clear="none">back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few floats<br clear="none">for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes<br clear="none">required.<br clear="none">Most of our dives were along a very steep<br clear="none">incline, not quite a wall but more like a series of ledges<br clear="none">and very steep slopes. Between the steep terrain and the<br clear="none">good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a really<br clear="none">good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using<br clear="none">very slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of<br clear="none">a skid on the slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging<br clear="none">trail of silt hanging motionless in the water and tracing<br clear="none">our path. The sub compresses with depth, so slightly<br clear="none">positive buoyancy at the surface turned into slightly<br clear="none">negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple<br clear="none">of pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact<br clear="none">at one point we stopped dead in the water four or five feet<br clear="none">above a flat bottom for about five minutes, just waiting for<br clear="none">a pre-arranged touch-point call on comms. The sub didn't<br clear="none">rise or sink an inch, she just hung there completely<br clear="none">immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility<br clear="none">would improve significantly, and the water changed from<br clear="none">green to blue. It looked like ocean instead of lake water.<br clear="none">I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to<br clear="none">put together. The only "incidents" we had were a<br clear="none">cold bath we took when we closed the hatch over a corner of<br clear="none">the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a log at 220<br clear="none">feet - fortunately reversing got us right off<br clear="none">it.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Best,<br clear="none">Alec <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org<br clear="none">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"> </a></span></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yqtfd66451"><div><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org<br clear="none">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523"> </a></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3513449662yqt07093"><div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=952523">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org<br clear="none">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv3513449662yqt29011"><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span></div></div><div class="yiv3513449662MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="yqt4493437823" id="yqt93740">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>