<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10617"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_11624">Thanks Ken,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10615"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_11187">Keith T mentioned the tuned inductor.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591" dir="ltr"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10596" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit</a><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591" dir="ltr">I am not familiar with it.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591" dir="ltr">In the article I posted it mentioned these sine current controllers.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591" dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_12946">http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/en_SinusStromRegelung.html</a><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591">These have been tested to 70 meters without capacitors, but very expensive.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10591">Alan </div><br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10145"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10144"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10588"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10590"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10589"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_13194"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_13193">To:</span></b> 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 8, 2015 3:14 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10143"><br>What's a tuned inductor?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Ken Martindale<br clear="none"><br clear="none">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_12942">personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none">Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 9:33 PM<br clear="none">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Also tuned inductors will help disipate the spikes caused by the controlers.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Keith T<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_10146">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">>Thanks Ken,I was nearly going to ask you to comment in my post.Is there <br clear="none">>an alternative to capacitors or to the electrolitic capacitors usually <br clear="none">>used?I was looking at this <br clear="none">>option.http://www.dialelectrolux.ru/files/file/electronicon/e61-data-ch<br clear="none">>arts-engl-deut.pdf<br clear="none">>Alan<br clear="none">> From: Ken Martindale via Personal_Submersibles <br clear="none">><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_12941">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <br clear="none">><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1433704715846_12940">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">> Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:19 PM<br clear="none">> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">>#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 -- _filtered #yiv9053454032 <br clear="none">>{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv9053454032 #yiv9053454032 p.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 li.yiv9053454032MsoNormal, #yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9053454032 a:link, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 a:visited, #yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-element {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032link-enhancr-view-on-domain {}#yiv9053454032 span.yiv9053454032EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9053454032 .yiv9053454032MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9053454032 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;!<br clear="none"> }#yiv9053454032 div.yiv9053454032WordSection1 {}#yiv9053454032 Adding extra capacitors helps reduce the magnitude of the inductive voltage spikes. Ken Martindale.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>From: Personal_Submersibles <br clear="none">>[mailto:<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org">personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] On Behalf Of Alan <br clear="none">>James via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none">>Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 6:48 PM<br clear="none">>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none">>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Thanks for <br clear="none">>the report Alec, great stuff.re the motor controllers; I've been <br clear="none">>reading a bit about inductance in long wire runs from battery tomotor <br clear="none">>controllers, that harms the capacitors on the controllers.This could be <br clear="none">>a problem that is unique to our submarines & not an issue with things <br clear="none">>like golf carts& wheel chairs.My reading has been mainly about BLDC <br clear="none">>motor controllers but asume PWM controllers for brushedmotors would be <br clear="none">>similar. Because of the rapid switching on & off of the power to the <br clear="none">>motor, there is acurrent surge hitting the capacitors & the longer the <br clear="none">>wire run, the more the power in the surge.A water analogy would be <br clear="none">>turning a valve off suddenly as washing machines do, sometimes witha <br clear="none">>"thunk" sound & a rattle of the pipes.Hugh mentioned he had problems <br clear="none">>with his Curtis BLDC motor controllers.Attached is the problem & <br clear="none">>solution, which is to put capacitors in parrallel along the battery <br clear="none">>wire; however there must be a better way.Regards Alantoo long battery <br clear="none">>wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds - <br clear="none">>RC Groups<br clear="none">>| |<br clear="none">>| | | | | | | |<br clear="none">>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precauti...Careful! <br clear="none">>| too long battery wires will kill ESC over time: precautions, <br clear="none">>| solutions & workarounds Electric Plane Talk | | View on <br clear="none">>| www.rcgroups.com | Preview by Yahoo | |<br clear="none">>| |<br clear="none">>| | | | | | | | |<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <br clear="none">><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <br clear="none">><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">>Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 12:20 AM<br clear="none">>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca Alec, I <br clear="none">>don't know what type of speed controller you are using, but I like and use Curtis golf cart controllers. They are rated for huge amperage and seem bullet proof. I have an extra 36V controller I can send you to try out. They use a 10 OHM potentiometer for the throttle. They also have a battery protection mode, a sort of get home conservation mode.<br clear="none">>I labeled the motor in Gamma for a jumper cable, so that I can get home without the controller. As you said it is electronic and it will fail.<br clear="none">>If you want the controller send your address of list.<br clear="none">>Hank<br clear="none">>--------------------------------------------<br clear="none">>On Fri, 6/5/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report: Snoopy at Seneca<br clear="none">>To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <br clear="none">><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">>Received: Friday, June 5, 2015, 6:16 PM<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>Hello friends,<br clear="none">>I just got back from a dive trip to Seneca with Dan Lance and thought <br clear="none">>I'd share how it went. This was supposed to be a two sub trip with <br clear="none">>Scott Waters, but unfortunately a business emergency intervened and it <br clear="none">>ended up being just Snoopy.<br clear="none">>On the way up the weather was terrible, with driving rain so heavy I <br clear="none">>could barely see the lines on the road. It had been raining heavily for <br clear="none">>several days previously. Three times there were emergency announcements <br clear="none">>about floods, large hail, and damaging winds, and the closer I got the <br clear="none">>harder it rained. The problem with all that rain is that in your <br clear="none">>typical lake, the runoff ruins visibility for weeks. That is what <br clear="none">>happened last year when Trustworthy and Snoopy rendezvoused at <br clear="none">>Summersville Lake, and it looked very much like this would be a repeat. <br clear="none">>I'm happy to say Seneca must be rain-proof, because the deluge only <br clear="none">>reduced the visibility in the top fifty feet or so, and even those were <br clear="none">>clearer than most lakes.<br clear="none">>Here's a few things we learned:<br clear="none">>1) Of props and shroudsThe stern<br clear="none">>thruster speed control was dead on arrival, although I had tested it <br clear="none">>successfully before leaving. I opened up the enclosure, pressed down <br clear="none">>all the spade connectors, and found it now worked - so attributed the <br clear="none">>issue to road bumps.<br clear="none">>However, it died within a minute on the first dive. I had a spare speed <br clear="none">>controller, so switched it out.<br clear="none">>The replacement died within five minutes on the second dive. This time <br clear="none">>at least the cause was obvious, the prop was jammed by weeds. The <br clear="none">>current Minnkota props have a little twist at the end of the blades, <br clear="none">>and Snoopy's shroud is made with almost no clearance. The little twist <br clear="none">>to the blade tip causes any object coming between prop and shroud to <br clear="none">>jam tight, and had already smoked one controller during the convention <br clear="none">>in the Keys. I'm going to put the prop on the lathe and take off the <br clear="none">>tips to eliminate the pinching effect and to reduce the amperage draw a <br clear="none">>little so the motor goes lighter on the speed controller. By the way, <br clear="none">>the speed controller was protected by a fuse rated a little below the <br clear="none">>controller spec current draw, so perhaps those specs are optimistic. <br clear="none">>Anyway, as a result of the double failure all of our dives were done on <br clear="none">>just the side thrusters because I was out of spare speed controllers.<br clear="none">>Lesson for next sub: Design the electrical system with a controller <br clear="none">>bypass, so I can operate thrusters with simple on/off switches if a <br clear="none">>speed controller fails. They're electronic, they will fail.<br clear="none">>2) Of air bubbles in compensation oil<br clear="none">>Snoopy is now routinely diving deep (250 ft) and this has showed up a <br clear="none">>puzzling issue with the thrusters. They were feeble during dives, one <br clear="none">>died altogether on one dive, and they kept coming up leaking oil. At <br clear="none">>first we thought the seals were failing, perhaps due to some chemical <br clear="none">>incompatibility. We found suitable seals at an Amish farm supply store <br clear="none">>that sold things like tractor spares (viva trolling motor simplicity!) <br clear="none">>When I disconnected the bladder hose I got quite well sprayed with oil. <br clear="none">>The motor turned out to be pressurized.<br clear="none">>Previously, I thought if one had a small quantity of air left in the <br clear="none">>system it would not be an issue so long as the compression volume of <br clear="none">>that air could be handled by the flexibility of the hose (aka <br clear="none">>compensation bladder.) Wrong. I now think what happens is that if the <br clear="none">>dive exceeds the pressure rating of the shaft seal and there is a <br clear="none">>bubble of any size, you will get water added to the oil and the bubble <br clear="none">>stores the pressure. Upon surfacing, the bubble squeezes oil and water <br clear="none">>back out until the pressure in the motor falls to the "cracking <br clear="none">>pressure" of the seal. Thus, you get an oil leak even though the seals <br clear="none">>are fine. Lesson: Zero tolerance with oil bubbles, even a small bubble <br clear="none">>is unacceptable if you are diving deep. I'm going to put set screws on <br clear="none">>the motor caps so I can get rid of the bubbles more easily.<br clear="none">>3) An easy way to add<br clear="none">>buoyancySnoopy's buoyancy is adjusted by placing trawl floats in PVC <br clear="none">>tubes. On one occasion, the oncoming passenger's weight required the <br clear="none">>addition of just one float (i.e. the new guy weighed seven pounds more <br clear="none">>than the one getting off). The support diver wasn't suited up and the <br clear="none">>water was 42 degrees, so I just pushed a float under the lip of the <br clear="none">>forward MBT. It worked like a charm, and the float even stayed in place <br clear="none">>throughout the tow back to the ramp. Lesson: You can easily add a few <br clear="none">>floats for buoyancy on a standard K sub, no special tubes required.<br clear="none">>Most of our dives were along a very steep incline, not quite a wall but <br clear="none">>more like a series of ledges and very steep slopes. Between the steep <br clear="none">>terrain and the good visibility, the K250 dome for once offered a <br clear="none">>really good view. We typically made our way down the slopes using very <br clear="none">>slightly negative buoyancy, trailing the back corner of a skid on the <br clear="none">>slope. Looking aft, you could see a zigzagging trail of silt hanging <br clear="none">>motionless in the water and tracing our path. The sub compresses with <br clear="none">>depth, so slightly positive buoyancy at the surface turned into <br clear="none">>slightly negative at depth, but we're speaking of just a couple of <br clear="none">>pounds and not anything that caused difficulty. In fact at one point we <br clear="none">>stopped dead in the water four or five feet above a flat bottom for <br clear="none">>about five minutes, just waiting for a pre-arranged touch-point call on <br clear="none">>comms. The sub didn't rise or sink an inch, she just hung there <br clear="none">>completely immobile for five minutes. At about 140 feet the visibility <br clear="none">>would improve significantly, and the water changed from green to blue. <br clear="none">>It looked like ocean instead of lake water.<br clear="none">>I'll post a video, but that'll take a few days to put together. The <br clear="none">>only "incidents" we had were a cold bath we took when we closed the <br clear="none">>hatch over a corner of the crew's shirt, and when we got hooked on a <br clear="none">>log at 220 feet - fortunately reversing got us right off it.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>Best,<br clear="none">>Alec<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br clear="none">><br clear="none">>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none">><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yqt2759118339" id="yqtfd63717"><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none">><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles </a> <br clear="none">>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none">><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none">><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none">><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>