<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15844"><span>Hank,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15846"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_16883">I mean when the fiberglass has cured & just the surface is tacky.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15848"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_16881">It is meant to be like this to form a chemical bond with the next layer.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15851"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15850">If you wait for the surface to dry (in time) then the next layer doesn't adhere as well.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15853"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_16879">I used clear cast polyester resin in art works, & you had to add paraphin wax in</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15853"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_17146">liquid form to stop the surface becomming tacky.</span></div><div align="JUSTIFY" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20728"><font face="Arial" size="2" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20729">There are two general types of polyester resin used for repair. Laminating or Bonding resin which cure to a tacky surface and Fiberglass or Marine Finish resin which cures to a non-tacky surface.</font></div><div align="JUSTIFY" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" class="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20724"><b class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20727"><i class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20726"><font face="Arial" size="2" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20725">Laminating resin </font></i></b><font face="Arial" size="2" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20723">(Evercoat # 100560, 100561) is used for initial coats on wood or for multiple applications with fiberglass cloth or mat. This resin is air-inhibited which means it will cure to a tacky finish and does not require sanding between coats. This is desirable in laminating because the layers adhere to each other better. This product should not be used as a final coat unless measures are taken to seal out the air during the curing process.</font></div><div align="JUSTIFY" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20442" class=""><b class="" style=""><i class="" style=""><font face="Arial" size="2" class="" style="">Marine and Fiberglass resin </font></i></b><font face="Arial" size="2" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20441" class="" style="">(Evercoat # 100553, 100552, 100554, 100517, 100518, 105499, 105498, 105500, and 105501) is non air-inhibited or <b class="" style=""><i class="" style="">waxed resin</i></b>. It is for the final coat. This resin cures with a hard non-tacky surface. When the catalyzed resin is applied as a final coat to the laminate coats of resin, the wax rises to the top, sealing off the air and allows the resin to cure to a hard finish, which can then be sanded, painted or gel coated.</font></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_15853"><b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" class=""><i class="" style=""></i></b><b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" class=""><i class="" style=""></i></b><b style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;" class=""></b></div><div align="LEFT" dir="ltr" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20716"><font face="Arial" size="2" class="" style="" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20717">NOTE: Cannot be used with aluminum, redwood and/or close-grained woods like oak or cedar. Do not use with Styrofoam.</font></div>Alan<br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20429"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20428"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20432"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20435"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20431"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 5, 2015 9:14 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fiberglass<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1430774638020_20427"><br><br clear="none">Alan,<br clear="none">Tacky means weak hardener ratio or poor mix. Tricky stuff!<br clear="none">Hank--------------------------------------------<br clear="none">On Mon, 5/4/15, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fiberglass<br clear="none"> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> Received: Monday, May 4, 2015, 5:11 PM<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Hi<br clear="none"> Alan,<br clear="none"> Interesting comment<br clear="none"> about the polyester being designed for one shot. The<br clear="none"> polyester resin I used is from 3M and the instructions say<br clear="none"> that it you restart the job on a cured layer you should sand<br clear="none"> it lightly first - so that's what I did, since it took<br clear="none"> about a month to get the desired number of layers on. It<br clear="none"> didn't seem to have any bonding issues with layers<br clear="none"> applied on cured material. This particular 3M polyester<br clear="none"> cures fully in 2 hours, and didn't feel tacky after<br clear="none"> that, so perhaps this is brand specific. <br clear="none"> Good point about the sections<br clear="none"> helping make the mirror versions of the MBTs. I made<br clear="none"> templates out of thin particle board to cut out the foam<br clear="none"> sections, and by flipping the templates was able to make<br clear="none"> mirror image tanks. <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Best,<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Alec<br clear="none"> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 4:33<br clear="none"> PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> Hi<br clear="none"> Scott,some great ideas<br clear="none"> from Alec there.I like his<br clear="none"> idea of using sandwiches of thinner sheets of<br clear="none"> polystyrene.You should be<br clear="none"> able to trace a shape on one sheet, cut it out,<br clear="none"> thencopy around it on to<br clear="none"> the corresponding sheet of the mirror imageballast tank, to get two tanks that are<br clear="none"> identical.When I did mine<br clear="none"> I marked the hull with a felt pen as to where<br clear="none"> theballast tank was going<br clear="none"> to fit against it. I covered this area with<br clear="none"> plasticfood wrap. I then<br clear="none"> draped glass mat over it & epoxied about 3<br clear="none"> layers over this. Polyester resin will<br clear="none"> disolve the plastic food wrap. This approach may be a<br clear="none"> problemon vertical walls & there<br clear="none"> may be a similar appoach that works better.You need to embed this shape in to the polystyrene<br clear="none"> section by wire brushingout the<br clear="none"> polystyrene untill it's a good fit. Because of shrinkage<br clear="none"> of the fiberglass& warping it<br clear="none"> won't nessecarily be a perfect match & may require<br clear="none"> additional work.Once you have the<br clear="none"> polystyrene shape done you cover it with fiberglass & go<br clear="none"> overthe area you formed against the<br clear="none"> hull.I used epoxy because it can go<br clear="none"> straight on to the polystyrene (test it first)<br clear="none"> &you can spend a month slowly<br clear="none"> building it up, whereas polyester resin is<br clear="none"> designedto be laminated in one shot. It<br clear="none"> is air inhibited & remains tacky on the outersurface unless it has a wax additive.I once made a 1/4 size ambulance out of<br clear="none"> polystyrene using mainly achain saw.<br clear="none"> Great fun but one hell of a mess.Alan<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> From: Alec<br clear="none"> Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> To: Personal<br clear="none"> Submersibles General Discussion <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Sent: Tuesday, May 5,<br clear="none"> 2015 3:33 AM<br clear="none"> Subject: Re:<br clear="none"> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fiberglass<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Hi Scott,<br clear="none"> Coincidentally your timing is really<br clear="none"> good, because I just finished four rather complex-shaped<br clear="none"> MBTs for the new sub. Since my sub is a one-off rather than<br clear="none"> a series production item, I used the method of glassing foam<br clear="none"> plugs that are then dissolved, rather than making molds. To<br clear="none"> summarize:<br clear="none"> - The plugs<br clear="none"> are a sandwich of many layers of pink home insulation foam<br clear="none"> from HomeDepot. When I did Snoopy's saddle tanks I cut<br clear="none"> out the sections with a hot wire, but this time I realized<br clear="none"> my jig saw does the job in about a tenth the time. Step one<br clear="none"> is to cut a whole bunch of sections and glue them together.<br clear="none"> If I weren't so tight-fisted, the ideal solution here<br clear="none"> would be to mill a single block of foam using CNC equipment,<br clear="none"> but I get by with what I have on hand if it'll save<br clear="none"> money - and a milling job would probably take quite a lot of<br clear="none"> it.<br clear="none"> - The glued<br clear="none"> sections are only a rough draft of the final form. Next you<br clear="none"> have to shape them until the steps between sections are gone<br clear="none"> and everything is nice and smooth. I use three tools to go<br clear="none"> from the draft to the final product, in this<br clear="none"> order:1) A plain old wood saw2) A<br clear="none"> Stanley Surform shaver, with flat and or rounded blade<br clear="none"> fitted depending on the surface. This thing is absolutely<br clear="none"> essential and I use it for 99% of the job. See <a shape="rect" href="http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=SURFORM+TOOLS+AND+BLADES&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=21-296&SDesc=Surform%26%23174%3B+Plane+Type+%96+Regular+Cut+Blade3" target="_blank">http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=SURFORM+TOOLS+AND+BLADES&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=21-296&SDesc=Surform%26%23174%3B+Plane+Type+%96+Regular+Cut+Blade3</a>)<br clear="none"> Sand paper<br clear="none"> I'm<br clear="none"> afraid I have no scientific answer to ensuring symmetry. I<br clear="none"> just put the plugs side by side and do a bunch walking in<br clear="none"> circles, taking measurements, and using a level. The plugs<br clear="none"> won't come out identical, but close enough to be<br clear="none"> functional. This part is more sculpture than<br clear="none"> science.<br clear="none"> - Next, paint<br clear="none"> the plugs with several coats of water-based paint. This is<br clear="none"> to prevent the resin from dissolving them. Water-based<br clear="none"> because if not you run the risk of the paint dissolving the<br clear="none"> foam.<br clear="none"> - Now apply<br clear="none"> layer after layer of wetted fiberglass cloth. I don't<br clear="none"> mean all in one sitting, I mean iteratively for about a<br clear="none"> month. There are two main considerations then, cloth and<br clear="none"> resin.<br clear="none"> I can't<br clear="none"> give you a specific recipe for cloth or the cost for cloth,<br clear="none"> because I used a combination of material I already had on<br clear="none"> hand and new stuff. I have purchased from <a shape="rect" href="http://www.fibreglast.com/" target="_blank">http://www.fibreglast.com</a><br clear="none"> in the past, but this time found lower prices on eBay for<br clear="none"> what turned out to be perfectly good material. Mostly I used<br clear="none"> 6.5 oz (quite light) cloth so that it would drape better,<br clear="none"> but that depends on the shape of your tanks. For instance,<br clear="none"> on the inside face that goes against the hull, you can get<br clear="none"> away with much heavier material since its a gentle curve in<br clear="none"> just one plane, and the same goes for any flat surfaces. But<br clear="none"> if you have compound curves or tight curves its way more<br clear="none"> challenging to drape cloth without forming air bubbles. I<br clear="none"> make the walls that go against the hull thinner, since they<br clear="none"> aren't going to be banging against things like the outer<br clear="none"> or upper faces will. On average I probably put down ten to<br clear="none"> fifteen layers of cloth. The pros use vacuum bagging to<br clear="none"> prevent bubbles. With my caveman fiberglass skills I just<br clear="none"> try to avoid them in the first place by selecting<br clear="none"> better-draping cloth, and when I get a bubble I remove it<br clear="none"> with a flap wheel before putting down the next layer. In the<br clear="none"> middle of my layup I put down several layers of Kevlar. This<br clear="none"> material is trickier to work with than fiberglass, it<br clear="none"> can't be sanded and once cured you can only really go<br clear="none"> through it with carbide tools. The idea is to increase<br clear="none"> survivability by making the MBTs puncture resistant. If I<br clear="none"> hit a rock or a dock I still expect the resin might crack,<br clear="none"> but it should be quite hard to put a hole in the Kevlar. You<br clear="none"> might think this hard layer should go on the outside, but I<br clear="none"> put it mid-schedule so I could sand imperfections out of the<br clear="none"> fiberglass layers above it. <br clear="none"> This job (new sub, not Snoopy's<br clear="none"> tanks) took ten gallons of resin. Everyone will tell you<br clear="none"> epoxy is stronger than polyester resin. However, epoxy is<br clear="none"> $76 per gallon vs. $34 for polyester, and Snoopy's<br clear="none"> polyester tanks have held up perfectly well for years. So,<br clear="none"> for me, this is a case of cheaper-is-sufficient and I went<br clear="none"> with polyester.<br clear="none"> -<br clear="none"> Iteratively sand and fix imperfections with a fairing<br clear="none"> compound. I used West Marine's #410 fairing filler (<a shape="rect" href="http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-system---410-microlight-filler--P004_120_004_016" target="_blank">http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-system---410-microlight-filler--P004_120_004_016</a>).<br clear="none"> You can do this with Bondo as well, but #410 is easier to<br clear="none"> sand.<br clear="none"> - Dissolve the<br clear="none"> plugs. When I made Snoopy's saddle tanks the pink foam<br clear="none"> dissolved instantly with gasoline. This time, despite being<br clear="none"> the same brand foam it was somehow gasoline resistant, but<br clear="none"> acetone did the job. <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Best,<br clear="none"> Alec<br clear="none"> On<br clear="none"> Mon, May 4, 2015 at 9:22 AM, via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Alec,<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> I was curious if you could go into details about the<br clear="none"> making of your saddle tanks?<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> *Where did you get the foam and fiberglass and what<br clear="none"> types did you use<br clear="none"> *How did you shape the foam to ensure symmetry <br clear="none"> *Was there any difficulty or anything you would do<br clear="none"> differently<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Thanks,<br clear="none"> Scott Waters<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yqt5019593455" id="yqtfd69726"><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>