<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:14pt"><div><span>Hank,</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>What you see there is the original Seehund arrangement, my intention is as you say, up higher. The aft cone on mine essentially now an MBT. Those lower volumes will be flooded in practice, but I am wondering if they could be blown down dry to help with trailer launching and recovery??</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Plenty, and I mean plenty of room along the centerline for keel ballast.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>I keep thinking about what you've told me regarding Gammas attachment, always in the back of my
mind!</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Thanks Hank!</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18.66px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>Joe</span></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div
style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Sunday, May 4, 2014 4:34 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container">Joe,<br>Your dive tanks are to low, they should be at the top of the sub. The way you have it will be less stable.<br>The motor pod should be okay, just like the K subs. You do not want your torpedo's to be buoyant, they should be as heavy as possible for stability.<br>Hank<br>--------------------------------------------<br>On Sun, 5/4/14, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical transition<br> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> Received: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 3:07 PM<br> <br> I've incorporated<br> some of the suggestions in the attached drawing. Still,<br> I've got a lot to think about here but I am also excited<br> about the possibilities and the potential outcome. This<br> image should give some idea of what's on my mind.<br> What you see is the water ballast arrangement<br> on the original Seehund, and how my proposed pressure<br> boundary fits into this scaled down version. The following<br> is a list of concerns and or design<br> considerations.<br> 1)<br> Clearly, I have no need to compensate for the loss of<br>
torpedoes<br> 2)<br> New pressure boundary provides for massive MBT volumes<br> (Low pressure compressor to blow down<br> volumes)<br> 3)<br> Torpedo battery pods may need to incorporate some free<br> flooding spaces to reduce weight, or perhaps reduce battery capacity to a single pod in<br> lieu of the former forward water ballast tank, then<br> completely free flood both torpedoes completely??.<br> (Boat will incorporate a gen-set)<br> 4) Questionable<br> reliability of external motor pod assembly.<br> 5)<br> Stability considerations<br> Thanks for the input<br> gents, It really helps me to take a step back on<br> occasion!<br> Joe<br> <br> <br> On Sunday, May 4,<br> 2014 10:19 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br> Joe,<br> When I mounted the tanks back on
Gamma, I changed the<br> mounting location to give a greater angle also I did what<br> Vance is saying on a small scale. I then poured<br> a gallon of paint in <br> each tank and rolled the sub slowly to ensure there was<br> complete paint coverage. If I was operating in salt<br> water I would mount some nipples to the tanks with<br> plugs. After a dive in salt water, remove the plug and<br> you have access to spray fresh water inside and rinse the<br> salt water out. A large panel is a good idea also because<br> you<br> can open it up after each dive and let it dry out. <br> If I had a K350, I would not copy the Nekton tanks<br> exactly. I would change the shape so they have more<br> volume at the top reducing the rolling effect. Also I would<br> consider making them from SS. Also SS heads solves the<br> problems entirely. Start watching ebay for ss heads. I<br> once saw a ss tank exactly the
same as a 500gal propane tank<br> for 1,500 dollars on ebay.<br> Hank<br> --------------------------------------------<br> On Sun, 5/4/14, via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br> <br> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical<br> transition<br> To: <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a><br> Received: Sunday, May 4, 2014, 8:32 AM<br> <br> Joe,<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Consider using an elliptical head back there, for<br> starters. You aren't building for much depth here, so<br> the K-350 size will be fine (.375" ish). The ellipses<br> are cheaper, do the same job, and give you a touch more<br> inside room. Then I would have
a cone rolled<br> with a short flange on the major diameter, maybe a couple<br> of<br> inches, to match the hull OD.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> The Nekton cone-to-dome caused a<br> pinch point that was always a hassle to clean and paint,<br> and<br> ultimately left some pitting in the pressure hull that had<br> to<br> be weld-repaired. A short cylinder on the sheet metal<br> would give you a little more room under there to sandblast<br> and paint during assembly and later for overhauls. I would<br> say for maintenance a couple of flush-mount, gasketed<br> panels<br> in the tank would serve you well. Don't make them too<br> ornery to remove or you won't do it as often as you<br> will<br> wish you had.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I'm wondering now about my own<br> boat and using tanks like that. Is there
anyone in the<br> group<br> who can plug and chug a metacentric height on Nekton tanks<br> installed on a K-350? Assembly would be so simple that<br> way.<br> And it would tow better, which is always a good thing. The<br> Nektons roll a bit, but are reasonably stable. A K with<br> the<br> pods should have plenty of weight down low. Hmm. Would it<br> work? I'm thinking yes. Anybody else have an opinion<br> on<br> that?<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Vance<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> -----Original<br> Message-----<br> <br> From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles<br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> <br> To: personal_submersibles<br> <<a
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> <br> Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 12:28 am<br> <br> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical<br> transition<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Vance,<br> <br> <br> <br> Rethinking that aft assembly to make it all soft tanks aft<br> of a hemi head ala Nekton.<br> <br> If I go weld-on to the head ala Nekton, how best to attach<br> to the head to allow for periodic access and maintenance?<br> <br> <br> <br> Joe<br> <br> <br> <br> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> From:<br> <br> <br> <br> via<br> Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>;<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> To:<br> <br> <br> <br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>;<br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Subject:<br> <br> <br> <br> Re:<br> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating<br> a conical transition <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> Sent:<br> <br> <br> <br> Sat, May 3, 2014<br> 2:03:36 PM <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Joe,<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> It<br> seems like an expensive and complex assembly for what you<br> get. Why not close the aft segment in a simpler way and<br> fair<br> the stern to the shape you prefer? A hemisphere with an<br> extended shaft housing to put the prop where you want it,<br> for instance.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> Vance<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> -----Original<br> Message-----<br> <br> <br> From: Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> <br> <br> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> <br> <br> Sent: Sat, May 3, 2014 8:17 am<br> <br> <br> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating a conical<br> transition<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> Sean,<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Yes,<br> a bolted flange with O ring.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I've<br> attached an image of what's on my mind. This hull is<br> 36" OD, cylinder length is 120". Anything bigger<br> in diameter, simply gets way to big and bulky for<br> handling.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I'm<br> thinking at this size, I must bolt at least two hull<br> sections together for outfitting and maintenance, and the<br> cones can be un-stiffened or perhaps only at the<br> joints.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> Joe<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Friday, May<br> 2, 2014 9:50 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via<br> Personal_Submersibles<br> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> wrote:<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Each cone section in that case is considered<br> alone, so if you were using stiffeners, you would need a<br> heavy stiffener at every joint. Depending on the size, it<br> may be simpler to use unstiffened geometry for such an<br>
assembly.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> The rules do not address bolting pressure<br> hull sections together, but I don't see why you<br> couldn't, provided you meet the requirements in terms<br> of<br> the stress analysis under the maximum combined loading<br> conditions, which are prescribed in the ABS rules.<br> Might<br> require some FEA to be sure. You're thinking an O-ring<br> groove seal? Or other arrangement? I think an ASME<br> code compliant flange would be a good place to start, but<br> I<br> would make sure that the cross-sectional area of each half<br> of the flange considered individually met the requirements<br> of a heavy stiffener per ABS, at a minimum material<br> location<br> (bolt hole). I would also be inclined to use SuperBolts<br> for<br> the connection. <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <a
href="http://www.nord-lock.com/superbolt/multi-jackbolt-tensioners/" target="_blank">http://www.nord-lock.com/superbolt/multi-jackbolt-tensioners/</a><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Sean<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On May 2, 2014 6:03:21<br> PM MDT, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> <br> wrote:<br> Sean,<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Would the heavy stiffener rule apply equally to several<br> cone<br> segments stepping down at different angles?<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Also, do ASME pipe flange specifications translate equally<br> to bolted
pressure hull sections? Have I missed a section<br> somewhere on bolted cylindrical sections?<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Very helpful Sean thank you!<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Joe<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> From:<br> <br> <br> <br> Sean T. Stevenson<br> via<br> Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>; <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> To:<br> <br> <br> <br> Personal<br> Submersibles General<br> Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>; <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Subject:<br> <br> <br> <br> Re:<br> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Terminating<br> a conical transition <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> Sent:<br> <br> <br> <br> Fri, May 2, 2014<br> 11:45:11 PM <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> 2:1 semi-elliptical heads are usually<br> fabricated with some length of straight flange (tangential<br> cylindrical section) beyond the axis of the ellipse.<br> Hemispherical heads may or may not have a straight flange<br> section, but in either case are
permissible to use<br> adjacent<br> to conical sections, provided all other requirements are<br> met. For stiffened cones, you must have stiffeners meeting<br> the "heavy stiffener" criteria at both ends, as<br> close as practicable to the cone-to-cylinder and<br> cone-to-head transitions. For unstiffened cones, the<br> length<br> L_c used in overall buckling calculations must be the<br> total<br> length between the next heavy stiffener to either side of<br> the entire compartment length, or between the 40% of head<br> depth points if otherwise<br> unbounded. Cone to head<br> welds are done in the same manner as cone to cylinder<br> welds,<br> and if your<br> head is supplied w!<br> ith a<br> flange, it is the same<br> thing.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Sean<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br>
<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On May 2, 2014 2:48:52<br> PM MDT, Joe Perkel via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br> wrote:<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I have<br> spotted the ABS diagrams and specifications for<br> re-enforcement and butt welds at conical to cylinder<br> transitions. I am somewhat unclear however as to<br> terminating<br> at the head.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> For<br> example, the diagrams in the 2014 ABS underwater vehicles<br> and hyperbaric chamber publication shows conical<br> transitions<br> either bordered by a<br> cylinder at either end, or simply
open<br> at the small end???<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> I want to terminate the small end of a conical<br> transition<br> directly to a small diameter hemi-head without another<br> straight section, but I am unclear as to whether or<br> not<br> that is acceptable<br> in practice.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Joe<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br> <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles"
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