<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Joe,</div><div>I have seen people make the box by putting cardboard around the</div><div>battery & fibre glassing over this. you need to have a cardboard or ply</div><div>lip included to clamp the diaphragm to.</div><div>Alan <br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 20/12/2013, at 11:04 AM, Joe Perkel <<a href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:14pt"><div><span>Alan,</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I've never bothered to price those Deep Sea units, but judging by the West Marine battery prices for standard use AGMs in a nice case can reach $800, I figure not to even bother.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>But, if we can copy what's being done safely and on the cheap, that's the way to go in my book.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Joe</span></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <br> <br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
On Thursday, December 19, 2013 4:50 PM, Joe Perkel <<a href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9139463462"><div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><span>Vance,</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>On my cabin cruiser, I ran lead acid because I did not like the cost of the higher end batteries. Of course gasoline fumes are more of a concern in a bilge than H1. Recently, I've been pricing the AGM's at West Marine and other places and not liking what I've seen, and this seven years prior to my build so imagine then. It seems to me that the batteries for a PSUB are the single most expensive repeat consumable item, so I'm very much liking this method.</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>The Busby
text (pg. 325) says that 48% of the submersible fleet at that time used this method compared to 32% inside and 20% external pods. This not being my line of work, I have to figure there are sound reasons for this
being the case, I'm a believer in paying attention to what industry does in whatever discipline.</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Looking at this over and over I have been coming to realize that the biggest advantages gained for a homebuilt affair are in cost, size and weight at the expense of convenience. Additional gains as you mentioned are lowering the CG with a concurrent gain in stability, jettison capability, and a added streamlining benefit along centerline, a standard K-350 tracks very poorly when towed as evidenced by builders on this very forum multiple times in the past. Add to this configuration a stabilizing fin ala Nautile, Shinkai, or even Delta, and a very towable submersible with a stable submerged station keeping ability in local conditions starts to emerge,. I'm liking it!</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Thanks
for that very helpful
post.</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Joe</span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div class="yiv9139463462yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div class="yiv9139463462yqt4405541919" id="yiv9139463462yqt01274"><div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:27 PM, "<a href="mailto:vbra676539@aol.com">vbra676539@aol.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:vbra676539@aol.com">vbra676539@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv9139463462y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9139463462"><div><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">
</font></font><div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">Joe,</font></div>
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In the short form, the answer is yes. And you have described possibly the simplest, cheapest, lightest, most compact, and most Ace Hardware friendly power pack possible. Be advised: I know zip about compensating AGMs, so this is about wet cells.
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">You wouldn't use hydrocaps. What you want is what we called "bubbler scrubbers". A screw on top with a can on it (about the size of a 35mm can) filled with small pvc beads and drilled through the top like a salt shaker with holes slightly smaller than your beads to keep them where they belong. Any hydrogen bubbles rising out of the cells will be wrapped in acid, and the bubbler is just a way to scrape the acid off as the gas moves through so you don't get it into the compartment. The acid sinks back down into the cells and saves you having to service the batteries so often. On the JSLs we only took the battery apart annually, or if a cell failed (which I personally never saw happen).</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">The nice thing about the acrylic top and separate compensator is that you can see the batteries and the condition of the oil. The JSLs have an inch thick top with a slight bow in it so there is a high point for a relief gas valve. They also run the electrical penetrators through the top itself. I like the plexiglas better than a membrane and I have NEVER had trouble with a compensator bag. You can make one out of a 3 quart ice pack bag from the drug store. It just ain't that hard.</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">As to operations with a compensated battery--okay, it CAN be a mess. Doing maintenance takes planning. You have to pump or drain the boxes to a drum and remove the top and yup, it's all oily and shit in there. Keep the shop rags handy. You'll need them. Did it more than once on the JSLs, Leo, and Pisces V. What they don't tell you is that it's not such a big deal. You just have to plan on it.</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">Overall, it's cheap and easy. That's the big draw, especially for shallow boats, where pods and all that add complication and expense. A K-sub, for instance, could have a half dozen 220 amp Trojans in a single string in one box for 36 volts. The box would be about 12"X12"X36". You could even make it droppable, and it would be simple to do.</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">That's a lot of power for one little box, and a lot of power for the normal needs of a K-sub. You could hang it between two 1' deep skids, lay your external HP bottles alongside and fair the whole thing into a nice tidy little package that would be streamlined and snag free and wouldn't make the hull sit any higher than it already is. Plug the batteries into the hull and be on your merry way for about...oh, what do you think? Two grand? And it would make a very neat little package, plus make the boat plenty stiff to offset rolling. The box would displace about 200 pounds in seawater and weigh...um...call it 500# air weight, so not a bad compromise for a battery like that. </font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">As to cables, which are horrendously expensive in high voltage variants, just have a look at what Snoopy got. Those are a mild upgrade from the bulkhead pins that HBOI used on the JSL battery boxes for nearly 40 years!!! Hard to beat that for field testing. And you can make 'em in your backyard shop on a Chinese lathe.</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">Vance<br clear="none">
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<div style="color: black; font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Joe Perkel <<a href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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<div><span>I notice some similarities as well as significant differences between that battery module and the Deep Sea units we've seen and discussed before. Aside from the lithium technology of course.</span></div>
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<div><span>Of note are the oil filled case, the case itself, and the transparent flexible membrane covering the whole works. The difference that catches my eye is that the electrical penetrations are through the case as opposed to through the membrane like those other units. That's significant because to my eye going through the case looks to me to be easier and more trouble free leak wise for the homebuilder.</span></div>
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<div><span>So my "idea man" brain has a question for the shop
wizards. </span></div>
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<div><span>Can a low cost relatively lightweight trouble free power module be reasonably built using?,....</span></div>
<div><span><br clear="none">
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<div><span>1) Low cost lead acid batteries with hydro-caps</span></div>
<div><span>2) FRP case with appropriate penetrations through the case</span></div>
<div><span>3) Oil filled case with membrane as opposed to reservoir compensation</span></div>
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<div><span>My thoughts are two independent battery boxes in tandem along the centerline, possibly jettison-able.</span></div>
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<div><span>Joe</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:21 PM, "<a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
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<div><font size="3">Couple of links for Ictineu 3. Video has subtitles (pause, start, pause, etc.).</font></div>
<div><a href="http://www.ictineu.net/en/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.ictineu.net/en/</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_6txom_wI</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: vbra676539 <<a href="mailto:vbra676539@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vbra676539@aol.com">vbra676539@aol.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: personal_submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2013 10:34 am<br clear="none">
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ictineu 3 launch<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv9139463462yqt0329979154" id="yiv9139463462yqt14311">
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<font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">The brother and sister team has finally water dipped the sub and done preliminary submergence and thruster testing. The announcements came out today on social media (FB, etc). It's worth looking them up if you haven't done so already. I talked to them for awhile at UI last year, and this thing is seriously impressive. 1200 meter depth capability with a big window, no less, and it only weighs 5 tons. That's pretty good going for a crew of three. Plus some really good looking lithium polymer technology. 10 kw/148 volts from a single box that isn't all that big or heavy (which they are advertising as for sale separately). Overall, it's a real beauty. The builder/designer is a fiberglass guy, and the fairings and whatnot are sheer art. Very nice.</font>
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<div><font class="yiv9139463462Apple-style-span" size="3">Vance</font></div>
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