<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top">I'm slipping, possibly because of the long hiatus I took from the PSUB community. Below is an excerpt from Woods Hole on Alvin's propulsion.<br/><br/><br/>Propulsion System<br/>Maneuvering of the submersible is accomplished with six electric thrusters. Three thrusters on the stern provide forward/reverse motion, two thrusters mounted amidships provide vertical motion and a final thruster mounted athwartships in the stern turns the submersible about an axis just aft of the sphere center line. Two of the aft-mounted thrusters can be rotated downward to provide additional vertical thrust at the expense of fore/aft thrust and some pitching. Each thruster provides up to 150 pounds of thrust. The battery power consumed by the propulsion system is a strong function of the submersible’s speed; the greatest range and endurance (bottom time) will be achieved by moving slowly (1.5 km/hr (0.8
kts) or less). <br/><br/>The pilot has various means to control the thrusters, the most commonly used being a joystick to effect fore/aft, vertical and turning motions. The submersible has only a limited ability to move sideways without turning. A “heading hold” autopilot is available to maintain a fixed heading under the control of Alvin’s gyrocompass.<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad</td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_">
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hank pronk <hanker_20032000@yahoo.ca>; <br>
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Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>; <br>
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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings <br>
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Sun, Oct 13, 2013 5:00:41 PM <br>
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<td valign="top"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div style=""><span style="">Joe,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma, new york, times, serif;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;"><span style="">I see no reason that a K thruster can not be converted to mag drive. The can would need to be longer and the tail section re worked.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma, new york, times, serif;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;"><span style="">Hank<var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
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<div class="hr" style="FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;"></div><font size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Perkel <josephperkel@yahoo.com><br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> "personal_submersibles@psubs.org" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 13, 2013 8:30:33 AM<br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings<br clear="none"></font></div>
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top">Hank,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I've been pricing DC motors to fit in those spam cans. So, Ive been interested in how best to mitigate the risk go salt water intrusion.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">To that end mag couplings seem to be the best solution for DC. Now to find appropriate matching hardware, (this is where published tech specs come in real handy) and figuring out the details.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Hydraulic on its face looks attractive for the same reason, to the detriment of complexity in associated systems.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">AC is a must for me, that little unit is the bees knees. But, I don't want this thing spiraling out of hand either so some sacrifices / compromises are a must.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I want to find out how to mag couple George's spam cans.<br clear="none"><br
clear="none">Joe<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad</td></tr></tbody></table>
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<div class="hr" style="FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span> </b>hank pronk <hanker_20032000@yahoo.ca>; <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span> </b>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>; <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span> </b>Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span> </b>Sun, Oct 13, 2013 1:49:41 PM </div></div>
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<div><span>Joe,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma, new york, times, serif;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;"><span>Yes, if you put in 10hp then count on 7.5 out. There are better pumps but lots more money. Remember, your pumping the oil then diverting it in a valve, sending it through oil lines then forcing through a motor. Lots of areas for loss. Alvin must be using hydraulic for deep sealing reasons perhaps. I am not saying hydraulic is bad, just the opposite, I love hydraulics. Just to hard on battery power for me.<var id="yiv5434485734yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma, new york, times, serif;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);FONT-STYLE:normal;BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent;"><span>Hank</span></div>
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<div class="yiv5434485734hr" style="FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;"></div><font size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Perkel <josephperkel@yahoo.com><br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> "personal_submersibles@psubs.org" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:21:32 PM<br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings<br clear="none"></font></div></div>
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top">Hank,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Is that 25% of input energy for the same output? <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Where is the loss, this is not my area.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Just mentioning it because of the choice of Alvin's systems.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Joe<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad</td></tr></tbody></table>
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<div class="yiv5434485734hr" style="FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span> </b>hank pronk <hanker_20032000@yahoo.ca>; <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span> </b>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>; <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span> </b>Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span> </b>Sun, Oct 13, 2013 2:37:10 AM </div>
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<div><span>Joe,</span></div>
<div><span>I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins.</span></div>
<div><span>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad.</span></div>
<div><span>Hank<var id="yiv5434485734yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
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<div class="yiv5434485734hr" style="FONT-SIZE:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;MARGIN:5px 0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;"></div><font size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Perkel <josephperkel@yahoo.com><br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b> Psubbers Mailist <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM<br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings<br clear="none"></font></div>
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<div>Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing <var id="yiv5434485734yui-ie-cursor"></var>videos.</div>
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<div>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-0">shelf</span> units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-1"><span>There</span></span> are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? </div>
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<div>If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling.</div>
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<div><span id="yiv5434485734misspell-2">Alecs</span> <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-3"><span>experience</span></span> has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-4"><span>convenience</span></span> means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons.</div>
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<div>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf">http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf</a> </div>
<div><span id="yiv5434485734misspell-5">Hmm</span>, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-6"><span>independent</span></span> re-<span id="yiv5434485734misspell-7"><span>charge</span></span> capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! </div>
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<div>So the question of the day is,...</div>
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<div>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / <span id="yiv5434485734misspell-9"><span>Caribbean</span></span> waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb?</div>
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