[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Wed Jun 28 18:38:36 EDT 2023
I have been on Carstens Sub and it was very responsible and very impressive.
The biggest thing for me was his procedures, attention to manuals &
inspector rating for Swiss Lloyds.
I too do not have certification but like others I have done the following:
Designed & manufactured pressure vessels to ASME VIII
Enlisted ABS and GL to understand the certification process.
Submitted my design to FEA expert George Laird of Predictive Engineering.
Bought Lloyds certified window domes
Had SGS monitor the PVHO build and pressure test.
Used certified materials
Employed ASME 9 weldors
Studied & complied with ASME PVHO
Studied Stachiws, bought plans of Kittredge sub,
Have full 3D Cad drawings in addition to 2D Cad drawings
Monitored Psubs.org
Listened to Peers through Psubs, Cliff Redus, Phil Nuyten, Karl Stanley,
Vance Bradley, etc
Restored and dived a submersible "Comsub"
Used approved Electrical through hull penetrators.
Used 2nd hand certified u/w Comms.
Utilised manual backup systems for getting to the surface.
Have a hull pressure test vessel and Test pool similar to Hanks.
Many reasons I would not get certification apart from cost.
Utilised industrial but uncertified valves.
Utilised LiFePO4 batteries in the PVHO
Utilised uncertified electric motors and propulsion systems.
So I would say that there should be a certification for the hull, Windows,
Hatch that recognises a responsible build.
The Electrical systems, manuals, procedures, etc which are also important
are where the majority of cost for certification is.
I would love to go through certification but there needs to be a class for a
responsible build.
The avenue is there with Swiss Lloyds through Carsten Stanfuss. IMHO This
needs to be promoted through P-subs
Cheers,
Hugh Fulton.
www.q-subs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> On
Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 9:40 AM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 53
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ABC News coverage
(MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles)
2. Re: Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
(Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles)
3. Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions
(via Personal_Submersibles)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:13:54 +0200 (CEST)
From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage
Message-ID:
<1687979634879.58746.0518ef37e54c2d0ced3c7367526b3892f170b6f8 at spica.telekom.
de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
And how many payed guest he let dive with it ? Carsten
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage
Datum: 2023-06-26T15:01:39+0200
Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Yeah, James Cameron "Mr. Expert". If I remember correctly his Deepsea
Challenger is not certified.
Jon
On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:58:21 AM EDT, Gregory Snyder via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
'There is no excuse for what happened here': Director James Cameron on
Titanic sub tragedy <https://youtu.be/e9YB31ElEFQ>
youtu.be <https://youtu.be/e9YB31ElEFQ> I hope this link is useful for
some.
Bob Ballard (who rediscovered Titanic) and James Cameron.
James Cameron couldn?t stop talking about the need to certify subs.
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?
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:14:19 -0400
From: Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
Message-ID:
<CAAeCABvoKzQqOSyoLoLk1H8PyH5_+iG2Qk2WVBvC-A0bgu-NjA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thank Carsten !
Very , very well said !
On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:53 PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> I do not know much about Karls sub.
>
>
>
> But I know a lot about my subs. And a lot of other people self build
> subs.
>
>
>
> Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds
> and ASME code from 1987.
>
> Is it classed ? No it is not. It is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use
> certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do.
>
> Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one
> reason I am in the Psubs group by the way..
>
> And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the
> begining.
>
>
>
> Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more
> backup systems than class required - yes it has.
>
>
>
> Would class accept my sub if I put the money for them in - no the
> would not - some equipment is second hand without
>
> papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th
> aviation gauges, intercom and so on.
>
>
>
> But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this
> purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine.
>
>
>
> Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for
> small private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill.
>
> So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels
> (Psubs) - but not for passenger vessels.
>
> (and not for the US-market for insurance reasons)
>
>
>
> But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not
> important to me.
>
> If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me.
>
>
>
> For me is important:
>
>
>
> - Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface?
>
> - Can the boat surface fully on it own?
>
> - Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of
> an emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him?
>
> - Is the hull proper tested?
>
> - Has it a proper navigation and comunication system?
>
> - Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years
> expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices?
>
> - And so on ..
>
>
>
> For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the
> titanic.
>
> This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was
> killed by a white old man ignorance..
>
> He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say
> say to make him get in?
>
>
>
> PS : I dont care about the controller either.
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200
>
> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley
> says so?
>
> As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines
> in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified
> it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep
> they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it
> meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified
> vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be
> proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the
> psubber that builds a non-certified
> K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves
> compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines
> equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an
> unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a
> non-certified submarine is, is subjective.
>
> I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be
> reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and
> I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss
> we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double
> standards or hold everyone to the same standard.
>
> Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities,
> friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a
> non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000
> feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility
> to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation
> because it might be unsafe?
>
> Jon
>
>
> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s
> sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering
> guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does
> not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver
> would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case.
> Hank
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ?
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:38:51 -0600
From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of
questions
Message-ID: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello, all,
First things first, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Mikael, a college
student studying mechanical engineering. I've had an interest in building my
own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my
robotics team and competing in the MATE championship.
The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and
dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering
challenge to myself.
1. What general advice would you give me to get started?
2. How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in
the room of the recent Titan tragedy - how do I avoid having that happen to
me? There's the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in
redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need
to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues
that might crop up?
3. What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I
have a little bit of experience with machining, I'd need to get better to
make parts I'd trust with my life. I can only assume I'd need to learn to
weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio
for any communications devices?
4. Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs
are involved in the process that I likely wouldn't expect?
5. How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I've heard of
people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn't really the
recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have
no idea how else you'd fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget.
6. What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I've picked
up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS
rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the
PSUBS website.
7. What other questions should I be asking?
Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that's a lot of
questions.
- Mikael
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