From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 06:12:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2023 12:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 1 15:53:12 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2023 21:53:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker Best insider description so far. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 01:00:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 13:00:11 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | > The New Yorker > > > Best insider description so far. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window > with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. > > According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be > would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 > mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. > A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. > Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering > the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. > > I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To > be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for around > 1000 m. > > With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: > > Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole outside ? ?614 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ?436 mm > > But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I > come to > > Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm > > Diameter front porthole outside ? ?530 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ?376 mm > > If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical > seat of 60? > > I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat? > conical frustrum window. > > According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm = > 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with > Conical Edge. and flat inside. > > The code has no figures for such a window. > > But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t =? > 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm > > To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got > (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test > 5 windows to destroy dephs > > and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. > > Carsten > > . > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 > > Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Hello Carsten, > for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for > 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short > term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be > fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we > can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be > checked but I believe it is 4x). > regards > Antoine > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > I come to the following rough figures: > > Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm > > Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original > designed as entrance..) > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding > the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo. > Jon > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, > MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can > imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As > I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 10:56:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 14:56:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1303090102.1490619.1688309765682@mail.yahoo.com> Pretty much my interpretation as well.? While I believe Rush owns 100% of the blame, I find the comments from industry experts sanctimonious.? There is a lot of hypocrisy in the industry which is one reason people like Rush don't listen them. Jon On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 01:02:14 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker ? Best insider description so far.? ? Carsten ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 11:42:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2023 15:42:03 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: The controller as a technical concern is a red herring, but the anecdote about having to remap the controller inputs during a dive in order to accommodate a thruster wired backwards speaks to a concerning general lack of attention to detail. This is something that should have been easily caught during a pre-dive inspection / checklist. Stockton is on record as saying that a primary reason that he chose to forgo classing was that the greatest safety concerns are procedural, as opposed to design / technical, and class doesn't address the latter. This isn't strictly true of course, but the thruster wiring fiasco further serves to suggest a bit of hypocrisy there. The article clearly reads as an op ed with an angle (i.e. condemning Rush and OceanGate), but I don't see the political connection? What about this is specifically left wing? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 1, 2023, 23:00, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. > > The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. > > The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> [The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen?fbclid=IwAR0CN7CyK3Ok72HX4Mf0n6sB6uc95sE-nH5_N1KDrqA5XHU1vx_k8eUCbfo) >> >> Best insider description so far. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 >> >> Von: ["MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"](mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles) [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. >> >> According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be >> would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. >> A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. >> Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. >> >> I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 >> >> Von: ["MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"](mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles) [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. >> >> With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 >> >> Von: ["MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"](mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles) [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: >> >> Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm >> >> But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to >> >> Diameter hull 1381mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm >> >> If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? >> >> I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. >> >> According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. >> >> The code has no figures for such a window. >> >> But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm >> >> To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs >> >> and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. >> >> Carsten >> >> . >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 >> >> Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >> >> Hello Carsten, >> >> for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). >> >> regards >> Antoine >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm >>> >>> I come to the following rough figures: >>> >>> Diameter hull 1600 mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm >>> >>> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) >>> >>> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic >>> >>> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 >>> >>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. >>> >>> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 >>> >>> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. >>> >>> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. >>> >>> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: > http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): > http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: > https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: > https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: > https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 13:49:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 19:49:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker Best insider description so far. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 17:29:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 15:29:19 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <99276125-C6A6-43C4-A89C-CC1C58AFF0E8@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 18:34:32 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 17:34:32 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 18:43:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 06:43:46 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <664c0873-40b0-c2f1-d112-2e02e53210b9@archivale.com> I mentioned The New Yorker's generally left-wing slant because it provides a built-in bias against individual initiative. Despite this, TNY usually adheres to standards of journalistic integrity, with at least this one exception. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 11:42 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The controller as a technical concern is a red herring, but the > anecdote about having to remap the controller inputs during a dive in > order to accommodate a thruster wired backwards speaks to a concerning > general lack of attention to detail. This is something that should > have been easily caught during a pre-dive inspection / checklist. > Stockton is on record as saying that a primary reason that he chose to > forgo classing was that the greatest safety concerns are procedural, > as opposed to design / technical, and class doesn't address the > latter. This isn't strictly true of course, but the thruster wiring > fiasco further serves to suggest a bit of hypocrisy there. > > The article clearly reads as an op ed with an angle (i.e. condemning > Rush and OceanGate), but I don't see the political connection? What > about this is specifically left wing? > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 1, 2023, 23:00, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > And the character assassination and innuendos are running full > blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something > more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. > > The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that > the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal > implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give > sufficient margin. > > The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless > harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to > this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to >> Happen? | The New Yorker >> >> >> Best insider description so far. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector >> window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. >> >> According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be >> would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it >> was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. >> A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the >> code. >> Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and >> considering the window was inside straight - means there was more >> material there. >> >> I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of >> view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with >> the real geometry. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for >> around 1000 m. >> >> With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: >> >> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole outside ? ? ? ?614 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ? ? ?436 mm >> >> But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 >> I come to >> >> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ? ? ?376 mm >> >> If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a >> conical seat of 60? >> >> I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside >> flat? conical frustrum window. >> >> According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm >> = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window >> with Conical Edge. and flat inside. >> >> The code has no figures for such a window. >> >> But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t >> =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm >> >> To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and >> got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to >> test 5 windows to destroy dephs >> >> and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. >> >> Carsten >> >> . >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 >> >> Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> Hello Carsten, >> for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been >> rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed >> for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps >> thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m >> rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO >> rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). >> regards >> Antoine >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm >> >> I come to the following rough figures: >> >> Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm >> >> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original >> designed as entrance..) >> >> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic >> >> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >> Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in >> that deep. >> >> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >> Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 >> >> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts >> holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo. >> Jon >> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, >> MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can >> imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. >> >> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not >> in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 >> bolts outside. >> >> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. >> >> Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 18:48:44 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 06:48:44 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> References: <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> <1688206356882.202179.ed33f4304c314a330ad96b867b6ecce6c9ce5b56@spica.telekom.de> <1688241192872.262605.a56b61161d2e166ba9039b73c2dbfec9ddc526b8@spica.telekom.de> <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <884537f5-bcaa-462b-8b03-609d7a21a136@archivale.com> I mentioned the relevance of the left-wing bias in another message. As for acoustic sensing, it apparently caught vibrations relating to the adjustment of individual fiber positions during the initial pressurization of the hull, and acoustic sensors continued to be used during dives. At least, that is how I interpreted what I have read. And as I understand it, the fibers used were carbon, though nobody says which kind... Marc de Piolenc On 7/3/2023 1:49 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? > > And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic > behaviour of glass? > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 > > Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. > Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like > journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. > > The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the > occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal > implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient > margin. > > The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping > about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this > accident, as the author and his informants must have known. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to > Happen? | The New Yorker > > > Best insider description so far. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector > window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. > > According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be > would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was > 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. > A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the > code. > Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and > considering the window was inside straight - means there was more > material there. > > I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of > view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with > the real geometry. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for around > 1000 m. > > With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: > > Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole outside ? ? ? ?614 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ? ? ?436 mm > > But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I > come to > > Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm > > Diameter front porthole outside ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ? ? ?376 mm > > If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a > conical seat of 60? > > I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside > flat? conical frustrum window. > > According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm > = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with > Conical Edge. and flat inside. > > The code has no figures for such a window. > > But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t > =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm > > To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got > (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to > test 5 windows to destroy dephs > > and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. > > Carsten > > . > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 > > Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > Hello Carsten, > for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated > for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a > short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought > it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than > the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low > temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). > regards > Antoine > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > I come to the following rough figures: > > Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm > > Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original > designed as entrance..) > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at > Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in > that deep. > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at > Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts > holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo. > Jon > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, > MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can > imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). > As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts > outside. > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 18:52:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 06:52:54 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long before COVID. Marc de Piolenc On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Carsten! > I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his ?despite its > heavy leftism? comment. > > Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to the > point that we really don?t have any news organizations that tell news. > ?Rather they find a few items that they will consider ?facts? and they > will create a narrative of ?this is the truth and everything else is a > lie? commentary. ?Very frustrating for the average citizen who just > wants to stay informed. > > The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches to > how it is represented in the media. > > It is fairly awful. > This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years > where the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public from > the truth) about Covid, it?s origin and possible treatments - and the > American people have lost faith in the government AND the media. > Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in social > media to control what can be and will be allowed to be discussed. > > Marc?s initial comment ?despite its heavy leftism? was to acknowledge > that the magazine is typically viewed as having opinions that would > only be endorsed by 1/2 of the country ?and that it would be typical > tactics in their journalistic integrity to demean the person involved > and not address facts of the case. > > He was saying ?even though recent history of this magazine would let > us know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even worse job > than expected.? > > I personally get my news from the BBC. > > At least I?m digesting someone else?s propaganda. > > Our system is broken. > Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it. > For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, we > are busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because it > serves the major political parties. > > My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old. > He told me once, ?Son, the world is going to hell, but I?m getting out > in time.? > > The older I get. ?The more I embrace that sentiment. > > AND?you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have ever > seen. > > Best personal regards, > Greg > > (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong) > (Everyone else - I don?t mean to enter any sort of political debate > here about anything - just trying to put Marc?s statement into context > for our European colleagues. ) > >> On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ? >> >> Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? >> >> And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic >> behaviour of glass? >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 >> >> Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. >> Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like >> journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. >> >> The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the >> occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal >> implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient >> margin. >> >> The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless >> harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this >> accident, as the author and his informants must have known. >> >> Marc de Piolenc >> >> On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to >> Happen? | The New Yorker >> >> >> Best insider description so far. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector >> window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. >> >> According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be >> would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it >> was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. >> A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the >> code. >> Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and >> considering the window was inside straight - means there was more >> material there. >> >> I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of >> view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with >> the real geometry. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for >> around 1000 m. >> >> With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: >> >> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?614 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?436 mm >> >> But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 >> I come to >> >> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) >> >> Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?376 mm >> >> If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a >> conical seat of 60? >> >> I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside >> flat? conical frustrum window. >> >> According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm >> = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window >> with Conical Edge. and flat inside. >> >> The code has no figures for such a window. >> >> But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t >> =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm >> >> To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and >> got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm >> >> (for Short term critical presssure) >> >> The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to >> test 5 windows to destroy dephs >> >> and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. >> >> Carsten >> >> . >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic >> site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 >> >> Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> Hello Carsten, >> for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been >> rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed >> for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps >> thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m >> rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO >> rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). >> regards >> Antoine >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm >> >> I come to the following rough figures: >> >> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside ? ? ? ?700 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside ? ? ? ? 466 mm >> >> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original >> designed as entrance..) >> >> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic >> >> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >> Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in >> that deep. >> >> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? >> >> Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >> Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 >> >> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts >> holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo. >> Jon >> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, >> MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can >> imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. >> >> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not >> in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 >> bolts outside. >> >> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. >> >> Carsten >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >> ?_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 19:42:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 23:42:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titans and Psubs In-Reply-To: <99276125-C6A6-43C4-A89C-CC1C58AFF0E8@yahoo.ca> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <99276125-C6A6-43C4-A89C-CC1C58AFF0E8@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1199837688.872787.1688341343878@mail.yahoo.com> Gentlemen:?Due to some rather significant? time constraints, I generally now have to sit on the sidelines as opposed to prior times when I would blab quite freely. I really miss participating in the online discussions and meetups.? There are some points in the present discussion I haven't seen addressed.? Either I missed them, or they're so obvious to us that we don't stop to consider that they might not be as obvious to those outside the community.?"Submersible" is a very broad term.? The difference between our submersibles vs Titan and other Deep Submergence Vehicles is greater than the difference between a Cessna 150 and the Space Shuttle or a manned spaceship to Mars. The static pressure difference between the Cessna and the Mars ship is generally no greater than one Atmosphere. With few exceptions our submersibles dive to not more than 10 atm.? Titan and other DSV dive to 400 atm and more.? Our test pressures as a factor (percentage) of operating depth are also much greater the the DSVs.? I've made these points when responding to several private inquiries, but have otherwise been silent not wanting to draw attention to Psubs.?Any sub that wants to dive at our Psubs sponsored events is required to meet the written standards we set some years back.? We have always had a robust exchange of advice both being requested and offered.? Any time someone posts an idea or description it's been regarded as an open invitation for critique.? This has saved all of us tons of time, money, and redo.? Can you imagine the benefits if Titan would have been a part of all this from the beginning of their project.??A lot of thanks is due to Jon for the tons of time and the leadership he has provided to our organization for many years even when he has had his hands full with other things.? For fear of overlooking someone if I attempted to list many others who have contributed so much for so long, I'll stop right there, but Jon has been the Daddy Rabbit of it all.?Best regards to the whole bloomin' bunch,Jim?? In a message dated 7/2/2023 4:29:56 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? I for one don?t like the blue tooth control system. Yes very robust as proven by spoiled children throwing them in fits of rage. ?I like a wired control box that sits on my lap. ?No fuss no worries, I literally installed that system in my DW yesterday. ?It is so simple I can do it myself with terrible electronic abilities. ?Also the game controller gives the impression the sub is not a serious, well build vehicle. ?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2023, at 11:50 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ?? ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" ? ? ? And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker ? Best insider description so far.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for around 1000 m.? With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given)? Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?614 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?436 mm? ? But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?376 mm? ? If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat? conical frustrum window.?? ? According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure)? ? But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside.? The code has no figures for such a window.? But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm ? To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm?? (for Short term critical presssure)? ? The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs? and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation.? ? Carsten ? .? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Carsten,??for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x).??regardsAntoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures:? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) ? ? Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? ? Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 19:47:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 18:47:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titans and Psubs In-Reply-To: <1199837688.872787.1688341343878@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1199837688.872787.1688341343878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 19:51:44 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 23:51:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titans and Psubs In-Reply-To: References: <1199837688.872787.1688341343878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1183202550.866547.1688341904307@mail.yahoo.com> Who said that?!? ?Unless someone signs their post, I can't tell who it's from. -Jim Todd In a message dated 7/2/2023 6:48:06 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? ?Agree!Three cheers for Jon!Hip hip Hooray!??Hip hip Hooray!??Hip hip Hooray!???? On Jul 2, 2023, at 6:43 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Gentlemen:?Due to some rather significant? time constraints, I generally now have to sit on the sidelines as opposed to prior times when I would blab quite freely. I really miss participating in the online discussions and meetups.? There are some points in the present discussion I haven't seen addressed.? Either I missed them, or they're so obvious to us that we don't stop to consider that they might not be as obvious to those outside the community.?"Submersible" is a very broad term.? The difference between our submersibles vs Titan and other Deep Submergence Vehicles is greater than the difference between a Cessna 150 and the Space Shuttle or a manned spaceship to Mars. The static pressure difference between the Cessna and the Mars ship is generally no greater than one Atmosphere. With few exceptions our submersibles dive to not more than 10 atm.? Titan and other DSV dive to 400 atm and more.? Our test pressures as a factor (percentage) of operating depth are also much greater the the DSVs.? I've made these points when responding to several private inquiries, but have otherwise been silent not wanting to draw attention to Psubs.?Any sub that wants to dive at our Psubs sponsored events is required to meet the written standards we set some years back.? We have always had a robust exchange of advice both being requested and offered.? Any time someone posts an idea or description it's been regarded as an open invitation for critique.? This has saved all of us tons of time, money, and redo.? Can you imagine the benefits if Titan would have been a part of all this from the beginning of their project.??A lot of thanks is due to Jon for the tons of time and the leadership he has provided to our organization for many years even when he has had his hands full with other things.? For fear of overlooking someone if I attempted to list many others who have contributed so much for so long, I'll stop right there, but Jon has been the Daddy Rabbit of it all.?Best regards to the whole bloomin' bunch,Jim?? In a message dated 7/2/2023 4:29:56 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? I for one don?t like the blue tooth control system. Yes very robust as proven by spoiled children throwing them in fits of rage. ?I like a wired control box that sits on my lap. ?No fuss no worries, I literally installed that system in my DW yesterday. ?It is so simple I can do it myself with terrible electronic abilities. ?Also the game controller gives the impression the sub is not a serious, well build vehicle. ?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2023, at 11:50 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ?? ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" ? ? ? And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker ? Best insider description so far.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for around 1000 m.? With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given)? Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?614 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?436 mm? ? But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?376 mm? ? If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat? conical frustrum window.?? ? According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure)? ? But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside.? The code has no figures for such a window.? But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm ? To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm?? (for Short term critical presssure)? ? The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs? and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation.? ? Carsten ? .? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Carsten,??for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x).??regardsAntoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures:? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) ? ? Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? ? Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 2 19:55:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 23:55:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titans and Psubs In-Reply-To: <1183202550.866547.1688341904307@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1199837688.872787.1688341343878@mail.yahoo.com> <1183202550.866547.1688341904307@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1866905295.866691.1688342104622@mail.yahoo.com> Except Sean and Hank; I can always tell if it's from them, but they usually sign their names anyway.? Maybe a few other In a message dated 7/2/2023 6:51:56 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? Who said that?!? ?Unless someone signs their post, I can't tell who it's from. -Jim Todd In a message dated 7/2/2023 6:48:06 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? ?Agree!Three cheers for Jon!Hip hip Hooray!??Hip hip Hooray!??Hip hip Hooray!???? On Jul 2, 2023, at 6:43 PM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Gentlemen:?Due to some rather significant? time constraints, I generally now have to sit on the sidelines as opposed to prior times when I would blab quite freely. I really miss participating in the online discussions and meetups.? There are some points in the present discussion I haven't seen addressed.? Either I missed them, or they're so obvious to us that we don't stop to consider that they might not be as obvious to those outside the community.?"Submersible" is a very broad term.? The difference between our submersibles vs Titan and other Deep Submergence Vehicles is greater than the difference between a Cessna 150 and the Space Shuttle or a manned spaceship to Mars. The static pressure difference between the Cessna and the Mars ship is generally no greater than one Atmosphere. With few exceptions our submersibles dive to not more than 10 atm.? Titan and other DSV dive to 400 atm and more.? Our test pressures as a factor (percentage) of operating depth are also much greater the the DSVs.? I've made these points when responding to several private inquiries, but have otherwise been silent not wanting to draw attention to Psubs.?Any sub that wants to dive at our Psubs sponsored events is required to meet the written standards we set some years back.? We have always had a robust exchange of advice both being requested and offered.? Any time someone posts an idea or description it's been regarded as an open invitation for critique.? This has saved all of us tons of time, money, and redo.? Can you imagine the benefits if Titan would have been a part of all this from the beginning of their project.??A lot of thanks is due to Jon for the tons of time and the leadership he has provided to our organization for many years even when he has had his hands full with other things.? For fear of overlooking someone if I attempted to list many others who have contributed so much for so long, I'll stop right there, but Jon has been the Daddy Rabbit of it all.?Best regards to the whole bloomin' bunch,Jim?? In a message dated 7/2/2023 4:29:56 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? I for one don?t like the blue tooth control system. Yes very robust as proven by spoiled children throwing them in fits of rage. ?I like a wired control box that sits on my lap. ?No fuss no worries, I literally installed that system in my DW yesterday. ?It is so simple I can do it myself with terrible electronic abilities. ?Also the game controller gives the impression the sub is not a serious, well build vehicle. ?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2023, at 11:50 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ?? ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" ? ? ? And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker ? Best insider description so far.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4? it was good for around 1000 m.? With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given)? Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?614 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?436 mm? ? But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?376 mm? ? If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat? conical frustrum window.?? ? According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure)? ? But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside.? The code has no figures for such a window.? But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm ? To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm?? (for Short term critical presssure)? ? The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs? and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation.? ? Carsten ? .? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hello Carsten,??for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x).??regardsAntoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures:? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) ? ? Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? ? Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 02:17:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 08:17:04 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> Message-ID: hello, Everyone is pushing a narrative: OceanGate was pushing the innovation vs regulation narrative, to such a crazy/flawed extent it now risks hurting all innovators. Triton does not want its customers to evaporate and being put in the same bag as OceanGate. Their frustration is understandable given the level of warning they had given. they are pushing the classification is essential narrative (which I think is good for vehicles with passengers, especially deep) I guess we as a group are anxious not to see a curtain of regulations falling down on any psubs activities as a fall out from the accident, and our narrative is that non-classification or off the shelf components are not bad per se, what matters is sound engineering. (we should talk to the media as much as we can to that end) Media are probably sensationalizing everything. France is a good example of regulatory overreach with a culture of "everything is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized". It probably explains why I am probably the only builder of 1atm subs I know of here, and still, I had to register my sub with british flag (imagine that ;-)) with a super special authorization process now to dive here. that is too bad because the country had a wealth of submersible know-how and innovative spirit in the Cousteau&Comex days. regards, Antoine On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 12:53?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long before COVID. > > Marc de Piolenc > On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Carsten! > I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his ?despite its heavy > leftism? comment. > > Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to the point > that we really don?t have any news organizations that tell news. Rather > they find a few items that they will consider ?facts? and they will create > a narrative of ?this is the truth and everything else is a lie? commentary. > Very frustrating for the average citizen who just wants to stay informed. > > The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches to how > it is represented in the media. > > It is fairly awful. > This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years where > the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public from the truth) > about Covid, it?s origin and possible treatments - and the American people > have lost faith in the government AND the media. > Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in social > media to control what can be and will be allowed to be discussed. > > Marc?s initial comment ?despite its heavy leftism? was to acknowledge that > the magazine is typically viewed as having opinions that would only be > endorsed by 1/2 of the country and that it would be typical tactics in > their journalistic integrity to demean the person involved and not address > facts of the case. > > He was saying ?even though recent history of this magazine would let us > know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even worse job than > expected.? > > I personally get my news from the BBC. > > At least I?m digesting someone else?s propaganda. > > Our system is broken. > Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it. > For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, we are > busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because it serves the > major political parties. > > My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old. > He told me once, ?Son, the world is going to hell, but I?m getting out in > time.? > > The older I get. The more I embrace that sentiment. > > AND?you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have ever seen. > > Best personal regards, > Greg > > (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong) > (Everyone else - I don?t mean to enter any sort of political debate here > about anything - just trying to put Marc?s statement into context for our > European colleagues. ) > > On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > ? > > Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? > > > > And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic > behaviour of glass? > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 > > Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. > Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like > journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. > > The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the > occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. > The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. > > The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping > about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as > the author and his informants must have known. > > Marc de Piolenc > On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The > New Yorker > > > > > Best insider description so far. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with > conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. > > According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be > would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm > at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. > A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. > Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the > window was inside straight - means there was more material there. > > I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be > precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. > > With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: > > > > Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm > > > > But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to > > > > Diameter hull 1381mm > > Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) > > Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm > > > > If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat > of 60? > > I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat > conical frustrum window. > > > > According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm > at 40 Mpa (4000m) > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > > > But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical > Edge. and flat inside. > > The code has no figures for such a window. > > But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 > x 376 = 73 mm > > > > To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + > 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm > > (for Short term critical presssure) > > > > The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 > windows to destroy dephs > > and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. > > > > Carsten > > > > . > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 > > Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > Hello Carsten, > > for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for > 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term > critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine > using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find > in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I > believe it is 4x). > > regards > Antoine > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm >> >> I come to the following rough figures: >> >> >> >> Diameter hull 1600 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm >> >> Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm >> >> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as >> entrance..) >> >> >> >> >> >> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic >> >> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. >> >> >> >> Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 >> >> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. >> >> >> >> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? >> >> >> >> Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 >> >> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the >> retaining ring in place. See attached photo. >> >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine >> that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. >> >> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw >> in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. >> >> >> >> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. >> >> >> >> Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > ?_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 02:59:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 14:59:26 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> Message-ID: <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> On 7/3/2023 2:17 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > France is a good example of regulatory overreach with a culture of > "everything is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized". It > probably explains why I am probably the only builder of 1atm subs I > know of here, and still, I had to register my sub with british flag > (imagine that ;-)) with a super special authorization process now > to?dive here. And yet, until recently at least, France had an active experimental aircraft movement building and flying a wide variety of airplanes. Marc > > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 12:53?AM Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long > before COVID. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Carsten! >> I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his ?despite >> its heavy leftism? comment. >> >> Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to >> the point that we really don?t have any news organizations that >> tell news.? Rather they find a few items that they will consider >> ?facts? and they will create a narrative of ?this is the truth >> and everything else is a lie? commentary. ?Very frustrating for >> the average citizen who just wants to stay informed. >> >> The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches >> to how it is represented in the media. >> >> It is fairly awful. >> This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years >> where the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public >> from the truth) about Covid, it?s origin and possible treatments >> - and the American people have lost faith in the government AND >> the media. >> Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in >> social media to control what can be and will be allowed to be >> discussed. >> >> Marc?s initial comment ?despite its heavy leftism? was to >> acknowledge that the magazine is typically viewed as having >> opinions that would only be endorsed by 1/2 of the country ?and >> that it would be typical tactics in their journalistic integrity >> to demean the person involved and not address facts of the case. >> >> He was saying ?even though recent history of this magazine would >> let us know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even >> worse job than expected.? >> >> I personally get my news from the BBC. >> >> At least I?m digesting someone else?s propaganda. >> >> Our system is broken. >> Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it. >> For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, >> we are busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because >> it serves the major political parties. >> >> My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old. >> He told me once, ?Son, the world is going to hell, but I?m >> getting out in time.? >> >> The older I get.? The more I embrace that sentiment. >> >> AND?you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have >> ever seen. >> >> Best personal regards, >> Greg >> >> (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong) >> (Everyone else - I don?t mean to enter any sort of political >> debate here about anything - just trying to put Marc?s statement >> into context for our European colleagues. ) >> >>> On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? >>> >>> And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the >>> elastic behaviour of glass? >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >>> Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 >>> >>> Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And the character assassination and innuendos are running full >>> blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected >>> something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. >>> >>> The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that >>> the occupants had time enough to release weights before the >>> fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give >>> sufficient margin. >>> >>> The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless >>> harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to >>> this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. >>> >>> Marc de Piolenc >>> >>> On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to >>> Happen? | The New Yorker >>> >>> >>> Best insider description so far. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >>> Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 >>> >>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell >>> sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. >>> >>> According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be >>> would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos >>> it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. >>> A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to >>> the code. >>> Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and >>> considering the window was inside straight - means there was >>> more material there. >>> >>> I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point >>> of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section >>> drawing with the real geometry. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >>> Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 >>> >>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for >>> around 1000 m. >>> >>> With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >>> Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 >>> >>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: >>> >>> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm (given) >>> >>> Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?614 mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?436 mm >>> >>> But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just >>> 530 I come to >>> >>> Diameter hull ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1381mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?530 mm (given) >>> >>> Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ?376 mm >>> >>> If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a >>> conical seat of 60? >>> >>> I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and >>> outside flat? conical frustrum window. >>> >>> According to PVHO-1-1987? t /Di = 0,348? with? t = 0,348 x >>> 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) >>> >>> (for Short term critical presssure) >>> >>> But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector >>> Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. >>> >>> The code has no figures for such a window. >>> >>> But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 >>> means t =? 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm >>> >>> To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical >>> and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm >>> >>> (for Short term critical presssure) >>> >>> The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you >>> have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs >>> >>> and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> . >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at >>> Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 >>> >>> Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Carsten, >>> for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been >>> rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer >>> designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, >>> and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to >>> get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in >>> Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be >>> checked but I believe it is 4x). >>> regards >>> Antoine >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of >>> 6500mm >>> >>> I come to the following rough figures: >>> >>> Diameter hull ? ? ? ?1600 mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole outside ?700 mm >>> >>> Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm >>> >>> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be >>> original designed as entrance..) >>> >>> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic >>> >>> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles >>> tonight. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing >>> at Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 >>> >>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used >>> in that deep. >>> >>> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the >>> thickness? >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing >>> at Titanic site >>> >>> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 >>> >>> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts >>> holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. >>> Jon >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, >>> MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder >>> and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal >>> direction. >>> >>> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out >>> (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold >>> by only 4 bolts outside. >>> >>> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. >>> >>> Carsten >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >>> ?_______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 3 11:55:53 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 17:55:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> Germany has a lot of homebuild (experimental) Planes and submarines. Nobody cares - as long as you not kill paying passengers.. But sometimes the owner of the water (lake, river) want to see some papers. I did some years ago a request to the "Oskar Ursinus" Society (The psubs for homebuild planes here) to integrate a 40 years old 1400 HP gasturbine (RR Gnome) from a helicopter into a Blanik glider. They saw no problem with that. Comment was "warp around you turbine blade casing some cevlar- so that nobody -outside- the plane will be hit in case the turbine has a catastropic failture".. But I don't think that you can carry paying guest on a regular base in "experimental" aircrafts. Special not in a glider which can climb with +200km/h - 18 km vertical in less than 3 Minutes - with two guys in old MIG21 suits. And for 250.000 USD ticket for the second seat. I have no problem with what was Oceangate did to research new technology. They did test, build models, install acustic checks and so on. I have a problem with the fact that paying guest pay the bill with there life - special if they are 19 years old and without the nessesary life expierence. The two Psubs submarines Emile build and I design for paying guest are both classed. All the other subs design for private owners only - including my own - not. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-03T09:00:44+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" On 7/3/2023 2:17 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: France is a good example of regulatory overreach with a culture of "everything is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized". It probably explains why I am probably the only builder of 1atm subs I know of here, and still, I had to register my sub with british flag (imagine that ;-)) with a super special authorization process now to dive here. And yet, until recently at least, France had an active experimental aircraft movement building and flying a wide variety of airplanes. Marc On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 12:53?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long before COVID. Marc de Piolenc On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Carsten! I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his ?despite its heavy leftism? comment. Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to the point that we really don?t have any news organizations that tell news. Rather they find a few items that they will consider ?facts? and they will create a narrative of ?this is the truth and everything else is a lie? commentary. Very frustrating for the average citizen who just wants to stay informed. The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches to how it is represented in the media. It is fairly awful. This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years where the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public from the truth) about Covid, it?s origin and possible treatments - and the American people have lost faith in the government AND the media. Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in social media to control what can be and will be allowed to be discussed. Marc?s initial comment ?despite its heavy leftism? was to acknowledge that the magazine is typically viewed as having opinions that would only be endorsed by 1/2 of the country and that it would be typical tactics in their journalistic integrity to demean the person involved and not address facts of the case. He was saying ?even though recent history of this magazine would let us know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even worse job than expected.? I personally get my news from the BBC. At least I?m digesting someone else?s propaganda. Our system is broken. Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it. For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, we are busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because it serves the major political parties. My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old. He told me once, ?Son, the world is going to hell, but I?m getting out in time.? The older I get. The more I embrace that sentiment. AND?you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have ever seen. Best personal regards, Greg (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong) (Everyone else - I don?t mean to enter any sort of political debate here about anything - just trying to put Marc?s statement into context for our European colleagues. ) On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker Best insider description so far. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 15:02:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?utf-8?Q?Kamil_=C5=BBebrowski?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2023 21:02:26 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D12CA8B-670A-40BB-B606-A4B80D8928A7@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 17:04:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2023 17:04:39 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: <7D12CA8B-670A-40BB-B606-A4B80D8928A7@gmail.com> References: <7D12CA8B-670A-40BB-B606-A4B80D8928A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Kamil. Welcome! The K250 and K350 were both intended as one person subs, but they can also be set up for two. Here's an example of a 2-person K250: http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ https://vimeo.com/195804786 Best, Alec On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:03?PM Kamil ?ebrowski via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Is the K-250 2 men sub? I was always thinking that this is 1 person sub. > > Wys?ane z iPhone'a > > Wiadomo?? napisana przez Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> w dniu 29.06.2023, o godz. 02:35: > > ? > Hi Mikael, > > Welcome! Great start with your reading list, and especially with your > field of study. I realize that being in college, most likely you may not be > at the stage of life in which you can actually build a sub just yet (though > who knows, Karl Stanley started when he was about 14.) If the budget, > skills, facilities, etc. seem overwhelming, there is still an awful lot you > can do now that will speed things up when the time is right. To begin with, > I'd make a point of tagging along at PSUBS events so you can actually see > subs in operation and maybe go for a dive. Pick up skills that you know > you'll need. In fact, you might have facilities at university for machining > and welding, that might be harder to come by after you've graduated. You > can also invest time developing a detailed CAD design, which will speed > things up later, and generate the documentation needed for subcontracting > parts you aren't comfortable making yourself. Even if you design your own > sub, I'd suggest starting with a set of Kittredge plans. It's a proven > design, and works perfectly as is even if you could optionally make > incremental improvements. When you do eventually start building, you can > begin with lots of smaller yet time-consuming parts (e.g. lights, > scrubbers) that will go into the eventual sub. That would let you get > through a lot of the labor without yet having big expenditures or > facilities. > > People here are always willing to help, whether with ideas or by peer > review. > > Best, > Alec > > > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:15?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hello Mikael, >> welcome along to the group. >> You have made a good start with the reading material you have. >> One of the items on the sub, the acrylic dome, can be expensive & hard to >> come by. It gives a much better viewing experience than a cheaper flat view >> port. I would >> have a good look at that at some stage. >> You can buy plans for a K250 or K350 submersible. Both 2 person & capable >> of 250ft & 350ft operating depth. >> Be aware that the plans are out of date & you would need to rely on the >> group for up to date options. >> There is a site "Guernsey submarine" with hundreds of pictures >> documenting a K350 build. Well worth looking at to see what you are getting >> in to. >> If you dont have a conning tower it is difficult to get in and out of the >> sub with a wave running. >> You need a substantial trailer & often an extension bar to be able to >> float the sub off the trailer. I heard someone say they could only launch >> off 1 in 5 boat ramps; they tend to end before the sub floats off. >> An option if you are shallow diving is to build an ambient sub. I did >> this as a prelude to a 1atm sub to test my design. An ambient sub is >> pressurized on the inside to the same pressure as the water at the depth >> you are at. So you dont need a strong hull or acrylic dome. It is quite >> cheap and relatively easy to make but a lot more dangerous than a 1atm. You >> would need to do a scuba course, as you are sitting dry but in a bubble of >> compressed air and subject to the same decompression laws as divers. Also >> there is limited life support time compared with a 1atm & you would need to >> get out & head for the surface if you were entrapped etc. The other down >> side with an ambient is that all your electronic inside the hull are under >> pressure, so items like large capacitors need protecting. >> I can give you more information if you are interested. And there will be >> some pictures of my build on the psub website under members projects. BTW I >> controlled it with a PS2 controller so beat Stockton to that one. >> Alan >> Regards >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> >> >> On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 9:40 am, via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> Hello, all, >> >> >> >> First things first, I?d like to introduce myself. I?m Mikael, a college >> student studying mechanical engineering. I?ve had an interest in building >> my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my >> robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. >> >> >> >> The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and >> dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering >> challenge to myself. >> >> 1. What general advice would you give me to get started? >> 2. How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in >> the room of the recent Titan tragedy ? how do I avoid having that happen to >> me? There?s the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in >> redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need >> to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure >> issues that might crop up? >> 3. What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? >> I have a little bit of experience with machining, I?d need to get better to >> make parts I?d trust with my life. I can only assume I?d need to learn to >> weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio >> for any communications devices? >> 4. Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What >> costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn?t expect? >> 5. How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I?ve heard of >> people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn?t really the >> recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I >> have no idea how else you?d fabricate something like that on a hobbyist >> budget. >> 6. What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I?ve picked >> up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS >> rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the >> PSUBS website. >> 7. What other questions should I be asking? >> >> >> >> Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that?s a lot of >> questions. >> >> >> >> - Mikael >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 4 19:39:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (=?utf-8?Q?Kamil_=C5=BBebrowski?= via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 01:39:31 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DE91804-F0AF-44B6-9395-538581BAF9A4@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 5 08:01:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 12:01:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Introducing_myself=2C=09and_a_laundry_l?= =?utf-8?q?ist_of_questions?= In-Reply-To: <2DE91804-F0AF-44B6-9395-538581BAF9A4@gmail.com> References: <2DE91804-F0AF-44B6-9395-538581BAF9A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1530583526.2610340.1688558511628@mail.yahoo.com> Contact me directly at admin at psubs.org to purchase sub plans from PSUBS. Jon On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 07:41:27 PM EDT, Kamil ?ebrowski via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I didn?t notice such modigications. Thank you for sharing. I was on this email list few years ago. I wanted to building K-350 but then whole revolution with my life begin, family, Kids, etc.? Finally I have a time for it. Do you now where I can fill an order for k-250 or k-350 at PSUBS? Wys?ane z iPhone'a Wiadomo?? napisana przez Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles w?dniu 04.07.2023, o?godz. 23:05: ?Hi Kamil. Welcome! The K250 and K350 were both intended as one person subs, but they can also be set up for two. Here's an example of a 2-person K250: http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567810/snoopyin2012/ https://vimeo.com/195804786 Best,Alec On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:03?PM Kamil ?ebrowski via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Is the K-250 2 men sub? I was always thinking that this is 1 person sub. Wys?ane z iPhone'a Wiadomo?? napisana przez Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles w?dniu 29.06.2023, o?godz. 02:35: ?Hi Mikael, Welcome! Great start with your reading list, and especially with your field of study. I realize that being in college, most likely you may not be at the stage of life in which you can actually build a sub just yet (though who knows, Karl Stanley started when he was about 14.) If the budget, skills, facilities, etc. seem overwhelming, there is still an awful lot you can do now that?will speed things up when the time?is right. To begin?with, I'd make a point of tagging along at PSUBS events so you can actually see subs in operation and maybe go for a dive. Pick up skills that you know you'll need. In fact, you might have facilities at university for machining and welding, that might be harder to come by after you've graduated. You can also invest time? developing a detailed CAD design, which will speed things up later, and generate the documentation needed for subcontracting parts you aren't comfortable making yourself. Even if you design your own sub, I'd suggest starting with a set of Kittredge plans. It's a proven design, and works perfectly as is even if you could optionally make incremental improvements. When you do eventually start building, you can begin with lots of smaller yet time-consuming parts (e.g. lights, scrubbers) that will go into the eventual sub. That would let you get through a lot of the labor without yet having big expenditures or facilities.? People here are always willing to help, whether with ideas or by peer review.? Best,Alec ? On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:15?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Mikael,welcome along to the group.You have made a good start with the reading material you have.One of the items on the sub, the acrylic dome, can be expensive & hard to come by. It gives a much better viewing experience than a cheaper flat view port. I would?have a good look at that at some stage.You can buy plans for a K250 or K350 submersible. Both 2 person & capable of 250ft & 350ft operating depth.Be aware that the plans are out of date & you would need to rely on the group for up to date options.There is a site "Guernsey submarine" with hundreds of pictures documenting a K350 build. Well worth looking at to see what you are getting in to.If you dont have a conning tower it is difficult to get in and out of the sub with a wave running.?You need a substantial trailer & often an extension bar to be able to float the sub off the trailer. I heard someone say they could only launch off 1 in 5 boat ramps; they tend to end before the sub floats off.An option if you are shallow diving is to build an ambient sub. I did this as a prelude to a 1atm sub to test my design. An ambient sub is pressurized on the inside to the same pressure as the water at the depth you are at. So you dont need a strong hull or acrylic dome. It is quite cheap and relatively easy to make but a lot more dangerous than a 1atm. You would need to do a scuba course, as? you are sitting dry but in a bubble of compressed air and subject to the same decompression laws as divers. Also there is limited life support time compared with a 1atm & you would need to get out & head for the surface if you were entrapped etc. The other down side with an ambient is that all your electronic inside the hull are under pressure, so items like large capacitors need protecting.I can give you more information if you are interested. And there will be some pictures of my build on the psub website under members projects. BTW I controlled it with a PS2 controller so beat Stockton to that one.AlanRegards?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 9:40 am, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello, all, ? First things first, I?d like to introduce myself. I?m Mikael, a college student studying mechanical engineering. I?ve had an interest in building my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. ? The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering challenge to myself. - What general advice would you give me to get started? - How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in the room of the recent Titan tragedy ? how do I avoid having that happen to me? There?s the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues that might crop up? - What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I have a little bit of experience with machining, I?d need to get better to make parts I?d trust with my life. I can only assume I?d need to learn to weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio for any communications devices? - Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn?t expect? - How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I?ve heard of people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn?t really the recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have no idea how else you?d fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget. - What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I?ve picked up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the PSUBS website. - What other questions should I be asking? ? Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that?s a lot of questions. ? - Mikael _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 5 08:02:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 12:02:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Introducing_myself=2C=09and_a_laundry_l?= =?utf-8?q?ist_of_questions?= In-Reply-To: <2DE91804-F0AF-44B6-9395-538581BAF9A4@gmail.com> References: <2DE91804-F0AF-44B6-9395-538581BAF9A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <665592257.2604241.1688558568060@mail.yahoo.com> Contact me directly at admin at psubs.org to purchase sub plans from PSUBS. Jon On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 07:41:27 PM EDT, Kamil ?ebrowski via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I didn?t notice such modigications. Thank you for sharing. I was on this email list few years ago. I wanted to building K-350 but then whole revolution with my life begin, family, Kids, etc.? Finally I have a time for it. Do you now where I can fill an order for k-250 or k-350 at PSUBS? Wys?ane z iPhone'a Wiadomo?? napisana przez Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles w?dniu 04.07.2023, o?godz. 23:05: ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 6 15:44:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 12:44:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting Message-ID: <41DC6B8A-E989-4FB4-A2CA-8719B59E15A7@gmail.com> My first attempt at potting. Built a form to hold the glue then put the wires in the holes, soldered the ends, put monkey S&?@t around the openings so they wouldn?t leak then poured the fiberglass resin in and it seemed to work. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2089.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 814025 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2090.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 949417 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 7 01:04:12 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 05:04:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting In-Reply-To: <41DC6B8A-E989-4FB4-A2CA-8719B59E15A7@gmail.com> References: <41DC6B8A-E989-4FB4-A2CA-8719B59E15A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <139841618.785719.1688706252042@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,I have been putting a pvc glue an inch up the jacket of the wires and around the entry point of the jacket into the resin. I tested this to 2000ft.The reason I do this is because my first wire potting was a fail and WD40 ran down between the resin and the jacket without any pressure on it.I use a 2 pot heat activated resin they use on pvc inflatable boats. Hard to get hold of, but I think doing the same with silicone is better than nothing.?The pressure cycling could compress the jacket and pull it away from the resin forming a path for the water.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 7:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My first attempt at potting. Built a form to hold the glue then put the wires in the holes, soldered the ends, put monkey S&?@t around the openings so they wouldn?t leak then poured the fiberglass resin in and it seemed to work. Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 7 13:05:37 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (vbra676539@aol.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 17:05:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting In-Reply-To: <139841618.785719.1688706252042@mail.yahoo.com> References: <41DC6B8A-E989-4FB4-A2CA-8719B59E15A7@gmail.com> <139841618.785719.1688706252042@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1559084286.540361.1688749537574@mail.yahoo.com> Any reason you guys don't use 3M potting and splicing products?Vance On Friday, July 7, 2023, 01:04:39 AM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,I have been putting a pvc glue an inch up the jacket of the wires and around the entry point of the jacket into the resin. I tested this to 2000ft.The reason I do this is because my first wire potting was a fail and WD40 ran down between the resin and the jacket without any pressure on it.I use a 2 pot heat activated resin they use on pvc inflatable boats. Hard to get hold of, but I think doing the same with silicone is better than nothing.?The pressure cycling could compress the jacket and pull it away from the resin forming a path for the water.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 7:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My first attempt at potting. Built a form to hold the glue then put the wires in the holes, soldered the ends, put monkey S&?@t around the openings so they wouldn?t leak then poured the fiberglass resin in and it seemed to work. Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 7 16:36:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 20:36:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting In-Reply-To: <1559084286.540361.1688749537574@mail.yahoo.com> References: <41DC6B8A-E989-4FB4-A2CA-8719B59E15A7@gmail.com> <139841618.785719.1688706252042@mail.yahoo.com> <1559084286.540361.1688749537574@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <588461740.1130679.1688762196846@mail.yahoo.com> Vance,No. the glue I was using was a 3M product that was designed for pvc. I ran tests on 5 or 6 glues including epoxy resin and nothing came close to the 3M 2 part heat activated glue. You could peel all the others off the pvc wire jackets apart from the 3M product that wouldnt come off, it just tore the pvc. As for the potting compound, I am guessing its just an epoxy resin & will adhere to the cable similarly to all the glues I had previously tried. Unless its a low durometer product that compresses at the same rate as the cable jacket.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 8 Jul 2023 at 5:07 am, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 07:06:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:06:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> FE Analysis of weak points of the construction. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-03T17:57:06+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Germany has a lot of homebuild (experimental) Planes and submarines. Nobody cares - as long as you not kill paying passengers.. But sometimes the owner of the water (lake, river) want to see some papers. I did some years ago a request to the "Oskar Ursinus" Society (The psubs for homebuild planes here) to integrate a 40 years old 1400 HP gasturbine (RR Gnome) from a helicopter into a Blanik glider. They saw no problem with that. Comment was "warp around you turbine blade casing some cevlar- so that nobody -outside- the plane will be hit in case the turbine has a catastropic failture".. But I don't think that you can carry paying guest on a regular base in "experimental" aircrafts. Special not in a glider which can climb with +200km/h - 18 km vertical in less than 3 Minutes - with two guys in old MIG21 suits. And for 250.000 USD ticket for the second seat. I have no problem with what was Oceangate did to research new technology. They did test, build models, install acustic checks and so on. I have a problem with the fact that paying guest pay the bill with there life - special if they are 19 years old and without the nessesary life expierence. The two Psubs submarines Emile build and I design for paying guest are both classed. All the other subs design for private owners only - including my own - not. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-03T09:00:44+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" On 7/3/2023 2:17 PM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: France is a good example of regulatory overreach with a culture of "everything is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized". It probably explains why I am probably the only builder of 1atm subs I know of here, and still, I had to register my sub with british flag (imagine that ;-)) with a super special authorization process now to dive here. And yet, until recently at least, France had an active experimental aircraft movement building and flying a wide variety of airplanes. Marc On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 12:53?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long before COVID. Marc de Piolenc On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Carsten! I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his ?despite its heavy leftism? comment. Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to the point that we really don?t have any news organizations that tell news. Rather they find a few items that they will consider ?facts? and they will create a narrative of ?this is the truth and everything else is a lie? commentary. Very frustrating for the average citizen who just wants to stay informed. The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches to how it is represented in the media. It is fairly awful. This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years where the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public from the truth) about Covid, it?s origin and possible treatments - and the American people have lost faith in the government AND the media. Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in social media to control what can be and will be allowed to be discussed. Marc?s initial comment ?despite its heavy leftism? was to acknowledge that the magazine is typically viewed as having opinions that would only be endorsed by 1/2 of the country and that it would be typical tactics in their journalistic integrity to demean the person involved and not address facts of the case. He was saying ?even though recent history of this magazine would let us know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even worse job than expected.? I personally get my news from the BBC. At least I?m digesting someone else?s propaganda. Our system is broken. Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it. For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, we are busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because it serves the major political parties. My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old. He told me once, ?Son, the world is going to hell, but I?m getting out in time.? The older I get. The more I embrace that sentiment. AND?you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have ever seen. Best personal regards, Greg (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong) (Everyone else - I don?t mean to enter any sort of political debate here about anything - just trying to put Marc?s statement into context for our European colleagues. ) On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ? And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic behaviour of glass? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200 Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles" An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast. Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like journalistic integrity from The New Yorker. The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion. The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin. The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as the author and his informants must have known. Marc de Piolenc On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Titan Submersible Implosion Was ?an Accident Waiting to Happen? | The New Yorker Best insider description so far. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4. According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60? would have to be would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm at 60? or 110 mm at a 90? fit. A 90? window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code. Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the window was inside straight - means there was more material there. I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org -- Archivale catalog: Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: Substack account: Pinterest: ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 18:51:52 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 22:51:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1871112450.3317577.1689202312548@mail.yahoo.com> Thick accent and I'm not very familiar with FEA so perhaps someone can summarize in plain language.? What I got out of it was that the vessel was good for 100 mpa (megapascals) in terms of linear buckling and 57 mpa in material failure.? With a 25% safety factor the material failure drops to 42 mpa and Titanic sits in 40 mpa, very close to the failure point.? However, we know Titan didn't make it to Titanic on the ill-fated trip so it sounds feasible that cyclic pressure took it's toll on the carbon fiber hull or the transition area to the heads. Anyone have more details they can share? Jon On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 07:08:14 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-bvNHCCpFo ? FE Analysis of weak points of the construction.? ? vbr Carsten?? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 12 21:55:08 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 21:55:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: This was sent to me by an aerospace historian: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/7/6/2179580/-My-Submariner-s-View-on-Loss-of-The-Oceangate-Submersible?utm_source=comment_notifications&utm_medium=email#comment_86535834 From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 13:25:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 13:25:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Beaver Island expedition in progress Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: J4FRYGOWW5AEXMGZRB34SDC6BE.jpg Type: image/png Size: 91208 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 13:57:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 10:57:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting In-Reply-To: <588461740.1130679.1688762196846@mail.yahoo.com> References: <588461740.1130679.1688762196846@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <904E2DB8-69F1-44C7-AB91-C60814089A37@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 13:58:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 10:58:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potting In-Reply-To: <904E2DB8-69F1-44C7-AB91-C60814089A37@gmail.com> References: <904E2DB8-69F1-44C7-AB91-C60814089A37@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 16 23:38:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 03:38:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> References: <1688320194870.301692.8650523c6a93accf201bbb4985a61c7b9c511c08@spica.telekom.de> <42252489-FBB2-47BE-B60D-5B9A1EF81287@snyderemail.com> <9fc6581a-a408-715c-f09c-8d40361fc711@archivale.com> <8b91fa16-6274-4c3b-337a-a3017342a266@archivale.com> <1688399753934.320670.c2c4fea9560aeca049b7c20fdf9e29375a79d724@spica.telekom.de> <1689159964917.427249.98c316d46f6762c5de0982e9e7f73fab35decf1d@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1795198181.1039516.1689565116339@mail.yahoo.com> At 10:23 this video has a pretty detailed image of the viewport that we have been talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm28gju5Brw Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 22 09:52:20 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 09:52:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Beaver Island expedition Message-ID: Hello Friends, Cliff and I are just back from diving R300 and Shackleton on an InnerspaceScience.org expedition to Beaver Island in Lake Michigan. We had Ian Roxborough and Steve McQueen as surface operations coordinators, and my son Trevor as swimmer and safety diver. Cliff came with his friend Kevin Hicks, who between mechanical skills and sense of humor is the ideal crewmember. We were hosted by Central Michigan University, which has a biological research station on the island. They had two science objectives. R300 did a transect with a data sonde attached, while Shackleton searched for lake trout spawning grounds. It was four full days of diving. Personally, I found the most interesting to be a dive on a submerged island covered in four thousand year old tree stumps. It went really smoothly, the team got better with every dive and there were zero incidents or emergencies. We carried many observers from CMU, from the director to students, and on the final day the subs became exhibits at CMU's annual open house. We must have had easily a hundred kids come aboard the subs that day. Here's an article with an embedded video as a bonus. https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2023/07/private-submersibles-join-lake-michigan-research-on-beaver-island.html Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 11:43:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 15:43:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test References: <28006602.4044010.1690126980156.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <28006602.4044010.1690126980156@mail.yahoo.com> test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 17:06:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 21:06:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test - do not respond References: <467782836.4119714.1690146370527.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <467782836.4119714.1690146370527@mail.yahoo.com> test - do not respond -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 17:12:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 21:12:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] mailing list is back up and running References: <1274993950.4116568.1690146749504.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1274993950.4116568.1690146749504@mail.yahoo.com> We had a problem with the mailing list which is now resolved.? Keep in mind that if you don't receive a copy of your own message within 10-20 minutes of sending it you should let me know via jon.wallace at yahoo.com or admin at psubs.org. Thanks,Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 18:11:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 18:11:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Beaver Island expedition Message-ID: Hello Friends, A small group of PSUBS members just returned from diving R300 and Shackleton on an InnerspaceScience.org expedition to Beaver Island in Lake Michigan. It was Cliff and myself with our subs, Ian Roxborough and Steve McQueen as surface operations coordinators, and my son Trevor as swimmer and safety diver. Cliff came with his friend Kevin Hicks, who although not a sub guy had the mechanical skills and sense of humor to be an ideal crewmember. We were hosted by Central Michigan University, which has a biological research station on the island. They had two science objectives. R300 did a transect with a data sonde attached, while Shackleton searched for lake trout spawning grounds. It was four full days of diving. Personally, I found the most interesting to be a dive on a submerged island covered in four thousand year old tree stumps. It went really smoothly, the team got better with every dive and there were zero incidents or emergencies. We carried many observers from CMU, from the director to students, and on the fifth and final day the subs became exhibits at CMU's annual open house. We must have had easily a hundred kids come aboard the subs that day. Here are some links: https://youtu.be/F9Nfs0ArsDY https://vimeo.com/847509117 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT_aPbA2_jI https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2023/07/private-submersibles-join-lake-michigan-research-on-beaver-island.html?utm_campaign=mlive_sf&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 20:41:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 17:41:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Beaver Island expedition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <363827F1-D867-49A9-AC2C-D6F1AD7ABFA4@gmail.com> Looks great! How do we sign up to volunteer in the future? Would love to pitch in for subsequent events? John Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2023, at 15:12, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hello Friends, > > A small group of PSUBS members just returned from diving R300 and Shackleton on an InnerspaceScience.org expedition to Beaver Island in Lake Michigan. It was Cliff and myself with our subs, Ian Roxborough and Steve McQueen as surface operations coordinators, and my son Trevor as swimmer and safety diver. Cliff came with his friend Kevin Hicks, who although not a sub guy had the mechanical skills and sense of humor to be an ideal crewmember. > > We were hosted by Central Michigan University, which has a biological research station on the island. They had two science objectives. R300 did a transect with a data sonde attached, while Shackleton searched for lake trout spawning grounds. It was four full days of diving. Personally, I found the most interesting to be a dive on a submerged island covered in four thousand year old tree stumps. > > It went really smoothly, the team got better with every dive and there were zero incidents or emergencies. We carried many observers from CMU, from the director to students, and on the fifth and final day the subs became exhibits at CMU's annual open house. We must have had easily a hundred kids come aboard the subs that day. > > Here are some links: > > https://youtu.be/F9Nfs0ArsDY > > https://vimeo.com/847509117 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT_aPbA2_jI > > https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2023/07/private-submersibles-join-lake-michigan-research-on-beaver-island.html?utm_campaign=mlive_sf&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter > > Best, > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 21:53:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 18:53:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Expedition volunteering Message-ID: <8FFA4E22-9F64-4A47-ABBD-AF5F3EBEB119@gmail.com> HI all, Unsure if my reply to Alec?s news went through so reposting- Is there a list for folks wanting to volunteer to help with surface operations, crew work for expeditions, etc? I would love to help in and start meeting members while learning from the operating side of things? Hope everyone?s summer is going well. John From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 23 22:42:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 22:42:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Expedition volunteering In-Reply-To: <8FFA4E22-9F64-4A47-ABBD-AF5F3EBEB119@gmail.com> References: <8FFA4E22-9F64-4A47-ABBD-AF5F3EBEB119@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Thanks for volunteering! Normally the ideal thing for that is a PSUBS convention, but it seems we're not having one this year (unless someone wants to jump in at the last second). This particular endeavor was very constrained in the sense that the island goes from 500 inhabitants in the winter to 3000 in the summer, and was completely sold out in terms of accommodations. We even had to move the dates in order to get the last berth on the ferry. But when they're in an accessible location, everyone who wants to attend can do so. Best, Alec On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 9:53?PM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > HI all, > > Unsure if my reply to Alec?s news went through so reposting- > > Is there a list for folks wanting to volunteer to help with surface > operations, crew work for expeditions, etc? > > I would love to help in and start meeting members while learning from the > operating side of things? > > Hope everyone?s summer is going well. > > John > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 14:11:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 18:11:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, before I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 14:37:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 18:37:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1457046809.5104379.1690310277872@mail.yahoo.com> The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, before I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 15:22:18 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:22:18 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use the Minn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they are cheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.For my boat I have used these with both air and oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensation strategies.Typical run lives of trolling motors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. This thruster had less than 20 hours of run time.How can we boost the reliability of these thrusters? > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15, 2023 > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.Water was blue, visibility was great, support excellent.Dives were great!That?s the good news.The bad news is that after a submerged two mile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?s son Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.I asked him to swim over and inspect.There were no obvious issues like had occurred last year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ducted nozzle and lockrf up rotation.After recovering the boat, I disassembled the thruster.These are Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulic pressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladder for thermal expansion.Before disassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.The bladders on the three remaining thrusters were expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.Also, before I disassembly, I pushed radially on the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.The shaft had a lot more radial play than normal.From this I could tell the shaft bushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.Upon disassembly, I drained the contents of the remaining fluid into a plastic pail.See picture at the Psubs web site.What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge which was a portion of the brushes.Trolling motors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known as carbon-graphite.Upon pulling off the bow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were caked with black sludge.See picture.Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.Both brushes were about half the thickness of a new brush set.One of the brushes springs had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brush and thus loss of electrical contact.The WD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40 consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15% Naptha.My working hypothesis is that one or more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphite brushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to accelerate wear.Over the two years period (17,500 hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20 hours on the units.The balance of the time, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40 at elevated Texas temperatures.BTW, the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cSt at 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armature shaft.It has a visible wear ring and the shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphite particles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish. > > The question is how can we improve the reliability? Should we investigate a different seal and try to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back to air compensation? What Alec and I discussed at the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-rated lip seal. If we can come up with something to try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up so that the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure. A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK 101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > Any thoughts?I would like to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. > > Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 16:02:55 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1367956435.5158416.1690315375216@mail.yahoo.com> Minn Kota is very tight lipped about any of the design aspects of their products.? I guess they are fending off cheap knockoffs.? As such I can find no real data on materials such as make-up of the brushes.? I am looking at transformer dielectric oil as a possible replacement like?https://phillips66lubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transformer-Oil.pdf. As to arcing being the possible cause of the blackened fluid, it is possible, but my guess is a suspension of brush particles given the amount of sludge left on all the parts and the wear pattern on the shaft.? What would support arcing hypothesis is that all of these thrusters were filled using a vacuum pump.? Yet all the bladders experienced gas pressure build-up.? Likewise, Alec filled all his thrusters with WD-40 and saw similar blackened WD-40 in bladders and similar gas built up past what you would expect from thermal expansion of fluid. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 02:23:16 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, before I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 16:16:30 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:16:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Cliff,thanks for that detailed report.We had discussed WD40 years ago and decided a low viscosity silicone was the way to go. The main problem we discussed was that the WD40 degraded plastics, but yes could imagine it would act on the binder in the brushes.I built a thruster using a 6374 outrunner brushless motor.I had 11 motors made up with 316 stainless shafts to my specs. I also had a mechanical seal. I feel now that I should build again with an inrunner motor. The inrunner has the coils on the outside and can dissipate the heat through the housing whereas with the outrunner, it's inner coils were being cooled by the silicone. It hasn't failed.I found I needed an over-pressure in the compensation system as the silicone was being thrown out of the thruster housing and up the wiring tube.I have been working for a long time now on an over-pressure compensator & recently bought a 3d resin printer to print the compensator body & sealing surfaces.Not far off finishing but have to order 316 springs from overseas. The compensator can be pre set to between 2-8 psi.?The idea is that the thruster is oil compensated but pressurized by air. I like oil compensation as it lubricates & cools the parts, & in Minn Kottas I have seen, they don't have a bearing for reverse.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 6:13 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 16:43:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1310277077.5181009.1690317814973@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, can you send the data sheet for the low viscosity silicone oil you are using. Thanks for the update on your thruster project.? I am looking forward to you getting this operational. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 03:17:09 PM CDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,thanks for that detailed report.We had discussed WD40 years ago and decided a low viscosity silicone was the way to go. The main problem we discussed was that the WD40 degraded plastics, but yes could imagine it would act on the binder in the brushes.I built a thruster using a 6374 outrunner brushless motor.I had 11 motors made up with 316 stainless shafts to my specs. I also had a mechanical seal. I feel now that I should build again with an inrunner motor. The inrunner has the coils on the outside and can dissipate the heat through the housing whereas with the outrunner, it's inner coils were being cooled by the silicone. It hasn't failed.I found I needed an over-pressure in the compensation system as the silicone was being thrown out of the thruster housing and up the wiring tube.I have been working for a long time now on an over-pressure compensator & recently bought a 3d resin printer to print the compensator body & sealing surfaces.Not far off finishing but have to order 316 springs from overseas. The compensator can be pre set to between 2-8 psi.?The idea is that the thruster is oil compensated but pressurized by air. I like oil compensation as it lubricates & cools the parts, & in Minn Kottas I have seen, they don't have a bearing for reverse.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 6:13 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 17:10:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 09:10:28 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> I noticed that Karl Stanley promotes air compensation. I could never understand why oil ( WD40 etc) was touted as being the preferred medium. I would agree with Cliff that the oil has possibly affected the carbon. I have had a lot of experience with carbon and mechanical seals and now will not use it. The most successful carbon was antimony impregnated in my experience. The oils would impregnate the carbon and then with depressurisation it would get the "bends". i.e. it would be subjected to minute explosive decompression which would pit the surface. The most successful seals were bronze and silicon or tungsten carbide. I should learn from my own mistakes as I have a leaking "carbon"/silicon Carbide seal. That is only in test mode and has not seen any real pressure. As I have so many seals, 15 , I once again got conned into a cheaper solution. I think we all collectively have the answers it is just the in depth reviews of detailed design that is lacking. Cheers, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 8:03 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:22:18 +0000 From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use the Minn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they are cheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.For my boat I have used these with both air and oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensation strategies.Typical run lives of trolling motors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. This thruster had less than 20 hours of run time.How can we boost the reliability of these thrusters? > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15, 2023 > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.Water was blue, visibility was great, support excellent.Dives were great!That?s the good news.The bad news is that after a submerged two mile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?s son Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.I asked him to swim over and inspect.There were no obvious issues like had occurred last year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ducted nozzle and lockrf up rotation.After recovering the boat, I disassembled the thruster.These are Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulic pressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladder for thermal expansion.Before disassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.The bladders on the three remaining thrusters were expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.Also, before I di! sassembly, I pushed radially on the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.The shaft had a lot more radial play than normal.From this I could tell the shaft bushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.Upon disassembly, I drained the contents of the remaining fluid into a plastic pail.See picture at the Psubs web site.What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge which was a portion of the brushes.Trolling motors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known as carbon-graphite.Upon pulling off the bow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were caked with black sludge.See picture.Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.Both brushes were about half the thickness of a new brush set.One of the brushes springs had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brush and thus loss of electrical contact.The WD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since la! st year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40 consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15% Naptha.My working hypothesis is that one or more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphite brushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to accelerate wear.Over the two years period (17,500 hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20 hours on the units.The balance of the time, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40 at elevated Texas temperatures.BTW, the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cSt at 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armature shaft.It has a visible wear ring and the shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphite particles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish. > > The question is how can we improve the reliability? Should we investigate a different seal and try to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back to air compensation? What Alec and I discussed at the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-rated lip seal. If we can come up with something to try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up so that the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure. A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK 101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > Any thoughts?I would like to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. > > Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: <1367956435.5158416.1690315375216 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Minn Kota is very tight lipped about any of the design aspects of their products.? I guess they are fending off cheap knockoffs.? As such I can find no real data on materials such as make-up of the brushes.? I am looking at transformer dielectric oil as a possible replacement like?https://phillips66lubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transformer -Oil.pdf. As to arcing being the possible cause of the blackened fluid, it is possible, but my guess is a suspension of brush particles given the amount of sludge left on all the parts and the wear pattern on the shaft.? What would support arcing hypothesis is that all of these thrusters were filled using a vacuum pump.? Yet all the bladders experienced gas pressure build-up.? Likewise, Alec filled all his thrusters with WD-40 and saw similar blackened WD-40 in bladders and similar gas built up past what you would expect from thermal expansion of fluid. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 02:23:16 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, be! fore I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the! thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 ****************************************************** From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 17:44:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 21:44:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1310277077.5181009.1690317814973@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> <1310277077.5181009.1690317814973@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <939011888.5207034.1690321443322@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I don't have any technical data on it.It says technical grade 5cst.?It looks like it is imported and re packaged.Emile used silicone, he may be able to tell you more.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 8:45 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 18:06:27 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 22:06:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> Good to hear from you my old friend.? I stated out with air compensation using the same pressure regulator that you were using.? I switch out mainly because I was using too much air on deep dives. At that point I only had 80 scf of HP air.? I have since added another 60 scf but still this is not a lot of air for deep dives. Interesting comment about oil impregnating the carbon and then depressurization and getting the "bends". I think Alec may be on to something with the idea of going back to no pressure compensation and using a single mechanical seal.? Jon just sent me some pictures of the mechanical seal Kittridge had in the K600.? ? The issue is if there is enough space in the housing to machine out the enclosure. I just don't think there is enough space for the seal without a complete redesign of housing on the Minn Kotas that hold the brushes. ?So I am assuming that the 15 seals on Q-Sub are all air compensated with the same regulators you sent me specs on??? Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 04:11:09 PM CDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I noticed that Karl Stanley promotes air compensation.? I could never understand why oil ( WD40 etc) was touted as being the preferred medium.? I would agree with Cliff that the oil has possibly affected the carbon.? I have had a lot of experience with carbon and mechanical seals and now will not use it.? The most successful carbon was antimony impregnated in my experience.? The oils would impregnate the carbon and then with depressurisation it would get the "bends".? i.e. it would be subjected to minute explosive decompression which would pit the surface.? The most successful seals were bronze and silicon or tungsten carbide.? I should learn from my own mistakes as I have a leaking "carbon"/silicon Carbide seal. That is only in test mode and has not seen any real pressure.? As I have so many seals, 15 , I once again got conned into a cheaper solution.? I think we all collectively have the answers it is just the in depth reviews of detailed design that is lacking.? Cheers, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 8:03 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ??? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability ? ? ? (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) ? 2. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability ? ? ? (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:22:18 +0000 From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" ??? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: ??? ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use the Minn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they are cheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.For my boat I have used these with both air and oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensation strategies.Typical run lives of trolling motors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. This thruster had less than 20 hours of run time.How can we boost the reliability of these thrusters? > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15, 2023 > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.Water was blue, visibility was great, support excellent.Dives were great!That?s the good news.The bad news is that after a submerged two mile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?s son Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.I asked him to swim over and inspect.There were no obvious issues like had occurred last year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ducted nozzle and lockrf up rotation.After recovering the boat, I disassembled the thruster.These are Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulic pressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladder for thermal expansion.Before disassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.The bladders on the three remaining thrusters were expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.Also, before I di! sassembly, I pushed radially on the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.The shaft had a lot more radial play than normal.From this I could tell the shaft bushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.Upon disassembly, I drained the contents of the remaining fluid into a plastic pail.See picture at the Psubs web site.What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge which was a portion of the brushes.Trolling motors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known as carbon-graphite.Upon pulling off the bow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were caked with black sludge.See picture.Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.Both brushes were about half the thickness of a new brush set.One of the brushes springs had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brush and thus loss of electrical contact.The WD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since la! st year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40 consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15% Naptha.My working hypothesis is that one or more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphite brushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to accelerate wear.Over the two years period (17,500 hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20 hours on the units.The balance of the time, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40 at elevated Texas temperatures.BTW, the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cSt at 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armature shaft.It has a visible wear ring and the shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphite particles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish. > > The question is how can we improve the reliability? Should we investigate a different seal and try to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back to air compensation? What Alec and I discussed at the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-rated lip seal. If we can come up with something to try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up so that the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure. A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK 101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > Any thoughts?I would like to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. > > Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: <1367956435.5158416.1690315375216 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Minn Kota is very tight lipped about any of the design aspects of their products.? I guess they are fending off cheap knockoffs.? As such I can find no real data on materials such as make-up of the brushes.? I am looking at transformer dielectric oil as a possible replacement like?https://phillips66lubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transformer -Oil.pdf. As to arcing being the possible cause of the blackened fluid, it is possible, but my guess is a suspension of brush particles given the amount of sludge left on all the parts and the wear pattern on the shaft.? What would support arcing hypothesis is that all of these thrusters were filled using a vacuum pump.? Yet all the bladders experienced gas pressure build-up.? Likewise, Alec filled all his thrusters with WD-40 and saw similar blackened WD-40 in bladders and similar gas built up past what you would expect from thermal expansion of fluid. Cliff ? ? On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 02:23:16 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, be! fore I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the! ? thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 ****************************************************** _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 19:06:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:06:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff knows this first hand, but my experience with the WD40 was similar to his. I found the oil went black after just the shortest of use time, and all my thrusters were generating gas. I'd start the day with just a tiny bubble of air in the accordion bottles, but end it with those bottles stretched taut, and a couple of times they blew off or ruptured due to the pressure. I got the impression the electrical arcs on the brushes might be generating gas. I'm returning to Michigan next week to pick up the sub, which I left behind to a mechanical breakdown of my tow vehicle. Once I have the sub in hand, I'll take a thruster off and use it to research ceramic seals and the design of a custom endcap. Cliff, I know you use a custom endcap already. If you want to send me the CAD file for it, and I used that as a starting point, it's likely the resulting design would maintain compatibility with your Kort struts. One thing that perplexes me is that Hank gets good results with WD-40. I really can't think of anything we're doing differently! On a positive note, I redid the air compensation for the arm for this trip, and it worked really well. It uses the SS Parker regulator that both Cliff and I used in the past for compensation. My issue with it earlier was that it's OP valve appears to handle only a very low volume, because I was seeing compensation pressure overshoot on ascent. The solution was super simple, I just added a separate OP valve to the compensated line (thanks Alan for the valve suggestion!) This small change makes air compensation attractive again to me, but if we can get 1-atm thrusters to work well, I'd like that even more due to the simplicity. Best, Alec On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 6:07?PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Good to hear from you my old friend. I stated out with air compensation > using the same pressure regulator that you were using. I switch out mainly > because I was using too much air on deep dives. At that point I only had 80 > scf of HP air. I have since added another 60 scf but still this is not a > lot of air for deep dives. Interesting comment about oil impregnating the > carbon and then depressurization and getting the "bends". > > I think Alec may be on to something with the idea of going back to no > pressure compensation and using a single mechanical seal. Jon just sent me > some pictures of the mechanical seal Kittridge had in the K600. The > issue is if there is enough space in the housing to machine out the > enclosure. I just don't think there is enough space for the seal without a > complete redesign of housing on the Minn Kotas that hold the brushes. > > So I am assuming that the 15 seals on Q-Sub are all air compensated with > the same regulators you sent me specs on? > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 04:11:09 PM CDT, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I noticed that Karl Stanley promotes air compensation. I could never > understand why oil ( WD40 etc) was touted as being the preferred medium. I > would agree with Cliff that the oil has possibly affected the carbon. I > have had a lot of experience with carbon and mechanical seals and now will > not use it. The most successful carbon was antimony impregnated in my > experience. The oils would impregnate the carbon and then with > depressurisation it would get the "bends". i.e. it would be subjected to > minute explosive decompression which would pit the surface. The most > successful seals were bronze and silicon or tungsten carbide. I should > learn from my own mistakes as I have a leaking "carbon"/silicon Carbide > seal. That is only in test mode and has not seen any real pressure. As I > have so many seals, 15 , I once again got conned into a cheaper solution. > I > think we all collectively have the answers it is just the in depth reviews > of detailed design that is lacking. Cheers, Hugh > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal_Submersibles On > Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 8:03 AM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 > > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability > (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability > (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:22:18 +0000 > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability > Message-ID: > > > tq3prbN_uGmkJ1pQsRDVuTtWK9_40l-g=@protonmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure > compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do > question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known > properties. > > WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have > strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade > secret, > in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as > a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of > volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to > draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open > to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into > the > surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to > dissolve > certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier > oils which serve the lubrication function. > > When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do > not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any > soluble > material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient > supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low > viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a > penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to > keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in > contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal > performance. > > In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I > would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability > (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as > with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and > lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both > cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the > chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and > available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has > no > such publically available information. > > Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I > would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in > contact > with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible > fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. > > Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result > of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting > from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid > forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a > consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in > the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes > from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as > opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. > > I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the > compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the > fluid > to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be > when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use the Minn-Kotta 101 lower > units as a starting point for thrusters because they are cheap, simple to > control, quiet and simple to work on.For my boat I have used these with > both > air and oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these > pressure compensation strategies.Typical run lives of trolling motors are > on > the order of 5-10 years for boaters. This thruster had less than 20 hours > of > run time.How can we boost the reliability of these thrusters? > > > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15, 2023 > > > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.Water was > blue, visibility was great, support excellent.Dives were great!That?s the > good news.The bad news is that after a submerged two mile transect when I > surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?s son Treavor was > the safety diver for the expedition.I asked him to swim over and > inspect.There were no obvious issues like had occurred last year at Lake > Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ducted nozzle and > lockrf up rotation.After recovering the boat, I disassembled the > thruster.These are Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by > adding hydraulic pressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small > bellow style bladder for thermal expansion.Before disassembly, I noticed > that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.The bladders on > the > three remaining thrusters were expanded almost to the point of rupture and > were black in appearance.Also, before I di! > sassembly, I pushed radially on the prop shaft and was rewarded with a > squirt of black 10WD-40.The shaft had a lot more radial play than > normal.From this I could tell the shaft bushing was worn and that both the > thruster lip seals had failed.Upon disassembly, I drained the contents of > the remaining fluid into a plastic pail.See picture at the Psubs web > site.What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge > which was a portion of the brushes.Trolling motors are typically made of a > blend of carbon and graphite also known as carbon-graphite.Upon pulling off > the bow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces > were caked with black sludge.See picture.Inspecting the brushes showed the > cause of failure.Both brushes were about half the thickness of a new brush > set.One of the brushes springs had bottomed out thus no spring force was > being applied to the brush and thus loss of electrical contact.The WD-40 > fluid had been in the thruster since la! > st year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.According to the manufacturer > MSDS sheet, WD-40 consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum > base oils and 5-15% Naptha.My working hypothesis is that one or more of the > components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the > carbon-graphite brushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush > thus leading to accelerate wear.Over the two years period (17,500 hours), > the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20 > hours > on the units.The balance of the time, the thrusters were sitting on the > boat > in my shop soaking in this WD-40 at elevated Texas temperatures.BTW, the > driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cSt > at > 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armature > shaft.It > has a visible wear ring and the shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a > loose fit.Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphite particles in > suspension were acting like an abrasive polish. > > > > The question is how can we improve the reliability? Should we investigate > a different seal and try to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a > different oil or go back to air compensation? What Alec and I discussed at > the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high > pressure-rated lip seal. If we can come up with something to try, I am > willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up so that the > seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure. A control would be > to run an off-the-shelf MK 101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > > > Any thoughts?I would like to hear what experience others have had with > oil > compensation on MK 101?s. > > > > Cliff > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20230725/ > 93cfbc41/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability > Message-ID: <1367956435.5158416.1690315375216 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Minn Kota is very tight lipped about any of the design aspects of their > products.? I guess they are fending off cheap knockoffs.? As such I can > find > no real data on materials such as make-up of the brushes.? I am looking at > transformer dielectric oil as a possible replacement > like? > https://phillips66lubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transformer > -Oil.pdf. As to arcing being the possible cause of the blackened fluid, it > is possible, but my guess is a suspension of brush particles given the > amount of sludge left on all the parts and the wear pattern on the shaft.? > What would support arcing hypothesis is that all of these thrusters were > filled using a vacuum pump.? Yet all the bladders experienced gas pressure > build-up.? Likewise, Alec filled all his thrusters with WD-40 and saw > similar blackened WD-40 in bladders and similar gas built up past what you > would expect from thermal expansion of fluid. > Cliff > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 02:23:16 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure > compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do > question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known > properties. > > WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have > strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade > secret, > in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as > a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of > volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to > draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open > to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into > the > surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to > dissolve > certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier > oils which serve the lubrication function. > > When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do > not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any > soluble > material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient > supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low > viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a > penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to > keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in > contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal > performance. > > In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I > would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability > (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as > with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and > lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both > cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the > chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and > available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has > no > such publically available information. > > Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I > would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in > contact > with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible > fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. > > Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result > of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting > from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid > forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a > consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in > the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes > from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as > opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. > > I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the > compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the > fluid > to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be > when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower > units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to > control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with > both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of > these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors > are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 > hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was > blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s > the > good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I > surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was > the > safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? > There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix > when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up > rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare > Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding > hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow > style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the > bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three > remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were > black in appearance.? Also, be! > fore I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded > with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play > thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both > the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the > contents > ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web > site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge > whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a > blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling > off > thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces > were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed > the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new > brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force > was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? > TheWD-40 > fluid had been in the! > thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According > to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum > distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working > hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with > the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical > strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years > period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total > of > no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters > were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas > temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low > kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It > has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a > loose > fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension > were acting like an abrasive polish.? > > The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate > a > different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a > different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat > the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high > pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am > willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the > seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would > be > to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > > Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil > compensation on MK 101?s. > > Cliff > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20230725/ > 4691a505/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 > ****************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 19:16:43 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:16:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98126372.5257296.1690327003782@mail.yahoo.com> I found SuperLube which has 100 cSt viscosity, but it's pretty expensive at $17 for 4oz. Silicone Oil | Synthetic Oils | | | | | | | | | | | Silicone Oil | Synthetic Oils Super Lube? Silicone Oil is a straight chained polydimethylsiloxanic fluid. This product is available in 100 cSt... | | | On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 04:18:06 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,thanks for that detailed report.We had discussed WD40 years ago and decided a low viscosity silicone was the way to go. The main problem we discussed was that the WD40 degraded plastics, but yes could imagine it would act on the binder in the brushes.I built a thruster using a 6374 outrunner brushless motor.I had 11 motors made up with 316 stainless shafts to my specs. I also had a mechanical seal. I feel now that I should build again with an inrunner motor. The inrunner has the coils on the outside and can dissipate the heat through the housing whereas with the outrunner, it's inner coils were being cooled by the silicone. It hasn't failed.I found I needed an over-pressure in the compensation system as the silicone was being thrown out of the thruster housing and up the wiring tube.I have been working for a long time now on an over-pressure compensator & recently bought a 3d resin printer to print the compensator body & sealing surfaces.Not far off finishing but have to order 316 springs from overseas. The compensator can be pre set to between 2-8 psi.?The idea is that the thruster is oil compensated but pressurized by air. I like oil compensation as it lubricates & cools the parts, & in Minn Kottas I have seen, they don't have a bearing for reverse.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 6:13 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 19:25:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:25:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <899028356.5266701.1690327557256@mail.yahoo.com> I will send drawings.? I am kind of interested in testing the factor lip seals on the MK 101's.? ?They look like they can handle a lot more pressure than 30 fsw.? Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 06:07:10 PM CDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff knows this first hand, but my experience with the WD40 was similar to his. I found the oil went black after just the shortest of use time, and all my thrusters were generating gas. I'd start the day with just a tiny bubble of air in the accordion bottles, but end it with those bottles stretched taut, and a couple of times they blew off or ruptured due to the pressure. I got the impression the electrical arcs on the brushes might be generating gas.? I'm returning to Michigan next week to pick up the sub, which I left behind to a mechanical breakdown of my tow vehicle. Once I have the sub in hand, I'll take a thruster off and use it to research ceramic seals and the design of a custom endcap. Cliff, I know you use a custom endcap already. If you want to send me the CAD file for it, and I used that as a starting point, it's likely the resulting design would maintain compatibility with your Kort struts.? One thing that perplexes me is that Hank gets good results with WD-40. I really can't think of anything we're doing differently! On a positive note, I redid the air compensation for the arm for this trip, and it worked really well. It uses the SS Parker regulator that both Cliff and I used in the past for compensation. My issue with it earlier was that it's OP valve appears to handle only a very low volume, because I was seeing compensation pressure overshoot on ascent. The solution was super simple, I just added a separate OP valve to the compensated line (thanks Alan for the valve suggestion!) This small change makes air compensation attractive again to me, but if we can get 1-atm thrusters to work well, I'd like that even more due to the simplicity.? Best,Alec On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 6:07?PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Good to hear from you my old friend.? I stated out with air compensation using the same pressure regulator that you were using.? I switch out mainly because I was using too much air on deep dives. At that point I only had 80 scf of HP air.? I have since added another 60 scf but still this is not a lot of air for deep dives. Interesting comment about oil impregnating the carbon and then depressurization and getting the "bends". I think Alec may be on to something with the idea of going back to no pressure compensation and using a single mechanical seal.? Jon just sent me some pictures of the mechanical seal Kittridge had in the K600.? ? The issue is if there is enough space in the housing to machine out the enclosure. I just don't think there is enough space for the seal without a complete redesign of housing on the Minn Kotas that hold the brushes. ?So I am assuming that the 15 seals on Q-Sub are all air compensated with the same regulators you sent me specs on??? Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 04:11:09 PM CDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I noticed that Karl Stanley promotes air compensation.? I could never understand why oil ( WD40 etc) was touted as being the preferred medium.? I would agree with Cliff that the oil has possibly affected the carbon.? I have had a lot of experience with carbon and mechanical seals and now will not use it.? The most successful carbon was antimony impregnated in my experience.? The oils would impregnate the carbon and then with depressurisation it would get the "bends".? i.e. it would be subjected to minute explosive decompression which would pit the surface.? The most successful seals were bronze and silicon or tungsten carbide.? I should learn from my own mistakes as I have a leaking "carbon"/silicon Carbide seal. That is only in test mode and has not seen any real pressure.? As I have so many seals, 15 , I once again got conned into a cheaper solution.? I think we all collectively have the answers it is just the in depth reviews of detailed design that is lacking.? Cheers, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 8:03 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ??? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability ? ? ? (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) ? 2. Re: Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability ? ? ? (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:22:18 +0000 From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" ??? To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: ??? ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use the Minn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they are cheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.For my boat I have used these with both air and oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensation strategies.Typical run lives of trolling motors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. This thruster had less than 20 hours of run time.How can we boost the reliability of these thrusters? > > R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15, 2023 > > We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.Water was blue, visibility was great, support excellent.Dives were great!That?s the good news.The bad news is that after a submerged two mile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?s son Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.I asked him to swim over and inspect.There were no obvious issues like had occurred last year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ducted nozzle and lockrf up rotation.After recovering the boat, I disassembled the thruster.These are Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulic pressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladder for thermal expansion.Before disassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.The bladders on the three remaining thrusters were expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.Also, before I di! sassembly, I pushed radially on the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.The shaft had a lot more radial play than normal.From this I could tell the shaft bushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.Upon disassembly, I drained the contents of the remaining fluid into a plastic pail.See picture at the Psubs web site.What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge which was a portion of the brushes.Trolling motors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known as carbon-graphite.Upon pulling off the bow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were caked with black sludge.See picture.Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.Both brushes were about half the thickness of a new brush set.One of the brushes springs had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brush and thus loss of electrical contact.The WD-40 fluid had been in the thruster since la! st year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40 consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15% Naptha.My working hypothesis is that one or more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphite brushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to accelerate wear.Over the two years period (17,500 hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20 hours on the units.The balance of the time, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40 at elevated Texas temperatures.BTW, the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cSt at 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. > > One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armature shaft.It has a visible wear ring and the shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphite particles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish. > > The question is how can we improve the reliability? Should we investigate a different seal and try to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back to air compensation? What Alec and I discussed at the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-rated lip seal. If we can come up with something to try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up so that the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure. A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK 101 with no pressure compensation to failure. > > Any thoughts?I would like to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. > > Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability Message-ID: <1367956435.5158416.1690315375216 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Minn Kota is very tight lipped about any of the design aspects of their products.? I guess they are fending off cheap knockoffs.? As such I can find no real data on materials such as make-up of the brushes.? I am looking at transformer dielectric oil as a possible replacement like?https://phillips66lubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transformer -Oil.pdf. As to arcing being the possible cause of the blackened fluid, it is possible, but my guess is a suspension of brush particles given the amount of sludge left on all the parts and the wear pattern on the shaft.? What would support arcing hypothesis is that all of these thrusters were filled using a vacuum pump.? Yet all the bladders experienced gas pressure build-up.? Likewise, Alec filled all his thrusters with WD-40 and saw similar blackened WD-40 in bladders and similar gas built up past what you would expect from thermal expansion of fluid. Cliff ? ? On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 02:23:16 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? I have no specific experience with using the WD40 product for pressure compensating thrusters (or any other volumes, for that matter), but I do question its efficacy for that purpose on the basis of its known properties. WD40 is a proprietary mixture of lubricants and solvents known to have strong dielectric properties. While the exact formulation is a trade secret, in general terms the product is an emulsion of oil and alcohol. Marketed as a penetrant, it has a low viscosity afforded by the substantial fraction of volatile, lightweight components, which help to allow capillary action to draw the emulsified product into crevices. In unencapsulated service (open to atmosphere), typically the lightweight components will evaporate into the surrounding air, temporarily serving their function as a solvent to dissolve certain solid or high viscosity residues before leaving behind the heavier oils which serve the lubrication function. When you encapsulate WD40 in a closed volume, the lightweight components do not evaporate, leaving them to perform their solvent function on any soluble material in contact for as long as the equilibrium concentration gradient supports that. Additionally, you hold these lightweight components with low viscosity / high volatility (remember, this product is marketed as a penetrant) in contact with whatever sealing arrangements are designed to keep it contained, where these seals would otherwise perform much better in contact with a higher viscosity oil or grease which augments the seal performance. In short, for any compensation of electronics in static applications, I would consider only the dielectric properties and dimensional stability (bulk modulus) of the compensating fluid. In a dynamic application, such as with a drive shaft seal, I would also pay attention to viscosity and lubricity. Material compatibility, however, is critically important in both cases, and I would be much more comfortable with a product for which the chemical makeup (and thus the material compatibility matrix) is known and available on a technical datasheet, versus a proprietary product that has no such publically available information. Similarly, with regard to compensating a Minn Kota motor specifically, I would want to know what all of the internal materials that may be in contact with the compensation fluid are, to make sure I was specifying a compatible fluid. I have no idea what information is available in that respect. Finally, I do wonder how much fluid breakdown is occurring not as a result of chemical incompatibility, but rather as a result of the brushes lifting from the armature due to the journal effect of the compensating fluid forming a boundary layer in between the two parts as they rotate, and a consequent electric arc forming which jumps the gap and cooks the fluid in the process. The combination of fluid breakdown and ablation of the brushes from such arcing could possibly be the source of the blackened fluid, as opposed to dissolution of the components due to chemical incompatibility. I find myself wondering if there might be a sweet spot with respect to the compensating fluid viscosity where the rotor is actually slowed by the fluid to the extent that the brush contact is actually better than it would be when rotating faster in a lesser viscosity fluid. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 12:11, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: The point of the thread is Psubbers like to use theMinn-Kotta 101 lower units as a starting point for thrusters because they arecheap, simple to control, quiet and simple to work on.? For my boat I have used these with both airand oil compensation and have now lost a thruster using each of these pressure compensationstrategies.? Typical run lives of trollingmotors are on the order of 5-10 years for boaters. ?This thruster had less than 20 hours of runtime.? How can we boost the reliability ofthese thrusters? R300 Thruster Failure, Beaver Island Expedition July 15,2023 We had a great IS Expedition at Beaver Island on Lake Michigan.? Water was blue, visibility was great, supportexcellent.? Dives were great!? That?s the good news.? The bad news is that after a submerged twomile transect when I surface, I lost the port stern horizonal thruster. Alec?sson Treavor was the safety diver for the expedition.? I asked him to swim over and inspect.? There were no obvious issues like had occurredlast year at Lake Charlevoix when a limb got lodged between the prop and ductednozzle and lockrf up rotation.? After recoveringthe boat, I disassembled the thruster.? Theseare Minn-Kotta 101 lower units that have been modified by adding hydraulicpressure compensation with WD-40 for the fluid and a small bellow style bladderfor thermal expansion.? Beforedisassembly, I noticed that the bladder for this unit was completely compressed.? The bladders on the three remaining thrusterswere expanded almost to the point of rupture and were black in appearance.? Also, be! fore I disassembly, I pushed radiallyon the prop shaft and was rewarded with a squirt of black 10WD-40.? The shaft had a lot more radial play thannormal.? From this I could tell the shaftbushing was worn and that both the thruster lip seals had failed.? Upon disassembly, I drained the contents ofthe remaining fluid into a plastic pail.?See picture at the Psubs web site.?What came out was black WD-40 fluid and a lot of loose black sludge whichwas a portion of the brushes.? Trollingmotors are typically made of a blend of carbon and graphite also known ascarbon-graphite.? Upon pulling off thebow cap and brush end of the trolling motor I found that the surfaces were cakedwith black sludge.? See picture.? Inspecting the brushes showed the cause of failure.? Both brushes were about half the thickness ofa new brush set.? One of the brushessprings had bottomed out thus no spring force was being applied to the brushand thus loss of electrical contact.? TheWD-40 fluid had been in the! ? thruster since last year?s Psub convention in Lake Charlevoix.? According to the manufacturer MSDS sheet, WD-40consist of 30-60% petroleum distillates, 10-30% petroleum base oils and 5-15%Naptha.? My working hypothesis is that oneor more of the components in the WD-40 reacted with the binding agent in the carbon-graphitebrushes and reduced the mechanical strength of the brush thus leading to acceleratewear.? Over the two years period (17,500hours), the thrusters had two main dive events with a total of no more than 20hours on the units.? The balance of thetime, the thrusters were sitting on the boat in my shop soaking in this WD-40at elevated Texas temperatures.?? BTW,the driver for using WD-40 is that is a very low kinematic viscosity (2.8 cStat 100 F or 38C). Note water is about 1 cSt. One other observation on the failure was the wear on the armatureshaft.? It has a visible wear ring andthe shaft bushing went from a snug fit to a loose fit.? Working hypothesis is that the carbon-graphiteparticles in suspension were acting like an abrasive polish.? The question is how can we improve the reliability?? Should we investigate a different seal andtry to get by with 1-ATM operation or investigate a different oil or go back toair compensation?? What Alec and I discussedat the Expedition was to try a single mechanical carbon seal or a high pressure-ratedlip seal.? If we can come up with somethingto try, I am willing to put a Minn-Kotta 101 in my test chamber, power it up sothat the seal in a dynamic mode and increase pressure to failure.? A control would be to run an off-the-shelf MK101 with no pressure compensation to failure. Any thoughts?? I wouldlike to hear what experience others have had with oil compensation on MK 101?s. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 119, Issue 24 ****************************************************** _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 19:30:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:30:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <98126372.5257296.1690327003782@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> <98126372.5257296.1690327003782@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1576578550.5249822.1690327805491@mail.yahoo.com> This is way too much kinematic viscosity for me at 100 times the viscosity of water.? Manufacturers make a low viscosity silicone oil.? I think we need to be closer to 5 cSt for kinematic viscosity. I am hoping Emile will send info on what he is using. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 06:17:28 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I found SuperLube which has 100 cSt viscosity, but it's pretty expensive at $17 for 4oz. Silicone Oil | Synthetic Oils | | | | | | | | | | | Silicone Oil | Synthetic Oils Super Lube? Silicone Oil is a straight chained polydimethylsiloxanic fluid. This product is available in 100 cSt... | | | On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 04:18:06 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff,thanks for that detailed report.We had discussed WD40 years ago and decided a low viscosity silicone was the way to go. The main problem we discussed was that the WD40 degraded plastics, but yes could imagine it would act on the binder in the brushes.I built a thruster using a 6374 outrunner brushless motor.I had 11 motors made up with 316 stainless shafts to my specs. I also had a mechanical seal. I feel now that I should build again with an inrunner motor. The inrunner has the coils on the outside and can dissipate the heat through the housing whereas with the outrunner, it's inner coils were being cooled by the silicone. It hasn't failed.I found I needed an over-pressure in the compensation system as the silicone was being thrown out of the thruster housing and up the wiring tube.I have been working for a long time now on an over-pressure compensator & recently bought a 3d resin printer to print the compensator body & sealing surfaces.Not far off finishing but have to order 316 springs from overseas. The compensator can be pre set to between 2-8 psi.?The idea is that the thruster is oil compensated but pressurized by air. I like oil compensation as it lubricates & cools the parts, & in Minn Kottas I have seen, they don't have a bearing for reverse.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 6:13 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 19:52:32 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:52:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:07:12 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:07:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability Message-ID: Cliff, Those sound like signs of an incompatible fluid to me. Especially considering the length of time that the thrusters were filled with WD40 compared to the hours they have run in the field. The US Navy created a bunch of technical reports on various aspects of deep submergence systems design, and distributed them among defense companies and researchers as part of the "Deep Submergence Systems Project" in the 60's and 70's. All of the documents are now approved for public release and readily available online. This one is particularly interesting and relevant to this conversation. I consult it often enough that I have a physical hard-copy on my office shelf. "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0894795 There is also: Handbook of Fluids and Lubricants for Deep Ocean Applications https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0866350 I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil. I maintain and operate a small fleet of ROV's and AUV's that routinely work at a depth of 6000m. All of them use motors that are compensated with either univolt transformer oil where high voltages are involved, or a silicone oil. The caveat being that all of these are brushless electric motors, so don't have the complications of carbon fouling of the fluid. We have been evaluating fluids that can serve as both a hydraulic system oil and an electrical system compensation oil, as we currently run two separate oils for each function. The problems we are running into are material compatibility with existing components. Things like wiring, heat shrink, seals, adhesives, etc. We know what not to do with Silicone and Univis, but the only way to determine the compatibility of a particular oil with a particular off the shelf or proprietary component, like a Minn Kota or any other motor, is testing. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:18:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:18:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here's my inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that are probably 40 years old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing. On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes idea > from a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress. > As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that > you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to > wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same > damage. > Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system. > You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One > with oil, one just air. > Alan > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:22:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 20:22:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I have used 1.5 cstk. From dupont, expensive. Possible solution? Mike Patterson. Used at NISA AS WATER SIMILAR. Message-ID: <941275321.662476.1690330972599@aol.com> Sent from my Galaxy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 20:54:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 00:54:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 21:03:43 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 01:03:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1901177111.5289813.1690333423153@mail.yahoo.com> River,Sounds like you are gaining a lot of experience in that job.Can you tell me what viscosity silicone oil you use, thanks.I printed & bound the first of those documents you refered to a few years back. There was also "Rotary shaft seal selection handbook for pressure-equalised deep ocean equipment."One thing I gleaned from that reading is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used.?That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 12:08 pm, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Those sound like signs of an incompatible fluid to me. Especially considering the length of time that the thrusters were filled with WD40 compared to the hours they have?run in the field. The US Navy created a bunch of technical reports on various aspects of deep submergence systems design, and distributed them among defense companies and researchers as part of the "Deep Submergence Systems Project" in the 60's and 70's. All of the documents are now approved for public release and readily available online. This one is particularly interesting and relevant to this conversation. I consult it often enough that I have a physical hard-copy on my office shelf."Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications"https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0894795There is also:Handbook of Fluids and Lubricants for Deep Ocean Applications https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0866350 I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil. I maintain and operate a small fleet of ROV's and AUV's that routinely work at a depth of 6000m. All of them use motors that are compensated with either univolt transformer oil where high voltages are involved, or a silicone oil. The caveat being that all of these are brushless electric motors, so don't have the complications of carbon fouling of the fluid.? We have been evaluating fluids that can serve as both a hydraulic system oil and an electrical system compensation oil, as we currently run two separate oils for each function. The problems we are running into are material compatibility with existing components. Things like wiring, heat shrink, seals, adhesives, etc. We know what not to do with Silicone and Univis, but the only way to determine the compatibility of a particular oil with a particular off the shelf or proprietary component, like a Minn Kota or any other motor,?is testing. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 21:10:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 01:10:29 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, > I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. I drain the dirty oil and replace. > > The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early. > Hank > > On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's my inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that are probably 40 years old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing. > > On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes idea >> from a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress. >> As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage. >> Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system. >> You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air. >> Alan >> >> [Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android](https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) >> >>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 21:33:12 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 01:33:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,?We have the trucks full of fuel and submarine hooked up in case of lightning strike. ?There are 4 fires burning from lightning around us.I dont think the fires are too bad though. ?We also have some big rain clouds hanging around that might help.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:11:03 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 21:40:45 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 21:40:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 23:04:02 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 03:04:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1576578550.5249822.1690327805491@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> <98126372.5257296.1690327003782@mail.yahoo.com> <1576578550.5249822.1690327805491@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <760263819.5326483.1690340642042@mail.yahoo.com> Per the document River pointed us to, Tellus 11 (5 cSt) and Tellus 15 (10 cSt) are acceptable general purpose compensating oils.? Seems to be reasonably priced as well. Jon On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:31:27 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is way too much kinematic viscosity for me at 100 times the viscosity of water.? Manufacturers make a low viscosity silicone oil.? I think we need to be closer to 5 cSt for kinematic viscosity. I am hoping Emile will send info on what he is using. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 23:11:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 03:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <760263819.5326483.1690340642042@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <132419986.5087723.1690308665028@mail.yahoo.com> <1308618765.5167919.1690316190821@mail.yahoo.com> <98126372.5257296.1690327003782@mail.yahoo.com> <1576578550.5249822.1690327805491@mail.yahoo.com> <760263819.5326483.1690340642042@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <106655558.5320904.1690341088974@mail.yahoo.com> I saw that.? I need to digest the report to see if our relatively shallow dive depth range compared to depth range covered in the report would shift us to another fluid.? These two reports River sent look useful. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 10:04:38 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Per the document River pointed us to, Tellus 11 (5 cSt) and Tellus 15 (10 cSt) are acceptable general purpose compensating oils.? Seems to be reasonably priced as well. Jon On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:31:27 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is way too much kinematic viscosity for me at 100 times the viscosity of water.? Manufacturers make a low viscosity silicone oil.? I think we need to be closer to 5 cSt for kinematic viscosity. I am hoping Emile will send info on what he is using. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 25 23:41:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 03:41:35 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dielectric oils Message-ID: Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water. I'd be curious to get a price quote. https://www.clearcoproducts.com/product/super-low-viscosity-pure-silicone-fluids/ Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 04:35:50 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 08:35:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> Message-ID: <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,That really sucks you had this happen. ?I always drain my motors at years end because I dont want them weeping in my shop. ?I always have black oil come out and a wee bit of water. ?The only difference I can see is, I use 55 lb and 30 lb motors. ?I had my 55 lb motors on Gamma at one point and have travelled 1.6 km each way to a dive spot. ?The motors worked fine and still do, but were under powered, so I went a different rout. ?I used 30 lb motors for vertical thrust on Gamma with no issues, in fact, if I recall, with no provision for expansion.. ?The motors were positioned vertically with a fill plug under the propeller. ?I used those vertical thrusters at Lake Tahoe and in Montana. ? I am diving tomorrow in my DDW with two systems. ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets ?psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box. If the new air compensation system works, I will convert the aft motors as well and continue testing over the summer. ?I do however plan to make magnetic coupled ends for the motors over the winter, regardless.?Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:41:09 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh my, hope that misses you! Please keep us in the loop. Alec On Jul 25, 2023, at 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Sean,?We have the trucks full of fuel and submarine hooked up in case of lightning strike. ?There are 4 fires burning from lightning around us.I dont think the fires are too bad though. ?We also have some big rain clouds hanging around that might help.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:11:03 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 07:26:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 11:26:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dielectric oils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2035934634.5420906.1690370791063@mail.yahoo.com> Fischer Scientific has it. ?5 cSt is $294 per gallon, 100 cSt is $264 per gallon.? Jon On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:43:18 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water. I'd be curious to get a price quote. https://www.clearcoproducts.com/product/super-low-viscosity-pure-silicone-fluids/ Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 08:35:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:35:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1893514569.5454675.1690374938792@mail.yahoo.com> These reports look good.? I am in the process of digesting them.? Is this the Univolt transformer oil you use?? Kinematic viscosity is low at 2.3 cSt.?https://www.mobil.com/en-us/industrial/pds/gl-xx-univolt-n-61-b Good point compatibly issues and need for testing.? The good news on the MK 101's is there are only a few parts to evaluate, lips seals, brushes, wire insulation and for my case, a Subconn connector.? The other parts are metal.? I don't think the permanent magnet would be affected. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:07:54 PM CDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Those sound like signs of an incompatible fluid to me. Especially considering the length of time that the thrusters were filled with WD40 compared to the hours they have?run in the field. The US Navy created a bunch of technical reports on various aspects of deep submergence systems design, and distributed them among defense companies and researchers as part of the "Deep Submergence Systems Project" in the 60's and 70's. All of the documents are now approved for public release and readily available online. This one is particularly interesting and relevant to this conversation. I consult it often enough that I have a physical hard-copy on my office shelf."Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications"https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0894795There is also:Handbook of Fluids and Lubricants for Deep Ocean Applications https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0866350 I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil. I maintain and operate a small fleet of ROV's and AUV's that routinely work at a depth of 6000m. All of them use motors that are compensated with either univolt transformer oil where high voltages are involved, or a silicone oil. The caveat being that all of these are brushless electric motors, so don't have the complications of carbon fouling of the fluid.? We have been evaluating fluids that can serve as both a hydraulic system oil and an electrical system compensation oil, as we currently run two separate oils for each function. The problems we are running into are material compatibility with existing components. Things like wiring, heat shrink, seals, adhesives, etc. We know what not to do with Silicone and Univis, but the only way to determine the compatibility of a particular oil with a particular off the shelf or proprietary component, like a Minn Kota or any other motor,?is testing. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 08:46:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <350694407.5450540.1690375586022@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,that was how Karl was doing it. With the first stage & spring removed.I tried it but the mechanism wasn't sensitive enough. Not all first stages are the same though.I think it was 9 or 11 psi above ambient.Long time ago.Have a good dive.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 8:40 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 08:46:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:46:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <740346626.5457177.1690375614115@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, I will be following your progress on this.? I sent you my drawing on brush end housing on the MF-101 that has been modified to accept the standoffs for my ducted nozzle.? I see this a possible long-term solution.? Short term is I am going to stay with oil compensation and switch to either?Tellus 11, silicon oil or Univolt transformer oil.? I looked at my test chamber.? I can make a flanged spool that will give me the room to pressure test a Minn Kota 101 lower unit while in operation?when you are ready. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:19:50 PM CDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 08:50:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:50:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> References: <033301d9bf3c$7348e3c0$59daab40$@gmail.com> <1070092641.5217876.1690322787045@mail.yahoo.com> <2043387004.5268305.1690329152263@mail.yahoo.com> <1625234795.5286389.1690332850772@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1009749057.5461421.1690375838592@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, when you do your yearly maintenance on these motors, do you also replace the lip seals and shaft bushing, and do you inspect brushes for wear, or do you just drain and refill without tearing them down? Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:55:11 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 08:59:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 12:59:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <313009751.5472970.1690376376802@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, thanks for the update.? Let us know how the dive comes along with respect to the thruster compensation.? Can you send me the model number of the magnetic coupling you are working with?? I like the benefits of air compensation but with my limited HP air supply I don't like the air consumption for deep dives. Cliff On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 03:39:01 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,That really sucks you had this happen. ?I always drain my motors at years end because I dont want them weeping in my shop. ?I always have black oil come out and a wee bit of water. ?The only difference I can see is, I use 55 lb and 30 lb motors. ?I had my 55 lb motors on Gamma at one point and have travelled 1.6 km each way to a dive spot. ?The motors worked fine and still do, but were under powered, so I went a different rout. ?I used 30 lb motors for vertical thrust on Gamma with no issues, in fact, if I recall, with no provision for expansion.. ?The motors were positioned vertically with a fill plug under the propeller. ?I used those vertical thrusters at Lake Tahoe and in Montana. ? I am diving tomorrow in my DDW with two systems. ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets ?psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box. If the new air compensation system works, I will convert the aft motors as well and continue testing over the summer. ?I do however plan to make magnetic coupled ends for the motors over the winter, regardless.?Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:41:09 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh my, hope that misses you! Please keep us in the loop. Alec On Jul 25, 2023, at 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Sean,?We have the trucks full of fuel and submarine hooked up in case of lightning strike. ?There are 4 fires burning from lightning around us.I dont think the fires are too bad though. ?We also have some big rain clouds hanging around that might help.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:11:03 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 09:00:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:00:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dielectric oils In-Reply-To: <2035934634.5420906.1690370791063@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2035934634.5420906.1690370791063@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208977892.5454873.1690376413703@mail.yahoo.com> Expensive. On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 06:29:09 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Fischer Scientific has it. ?5 cSt is $294 per gallon, 100 cSt is $264 per gallon.? Jon On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:43:18 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water. I'd be curious to get a price quote. https://www.clearcoproducts.com/product/super-low-viscosity-pure-silicone-fluids/ Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 09:09:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:09:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dielectric oils In-Reply-To: <208977892.5454873.1690376413703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2035934634.5420906.1690370791063@mail.yahoo.com> <208977892.5454873.1690376413703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <761752758.5455191.1690376940237@mail.yahoo.com> Too expensive depending on how often it would need to be changed. ?I believe an entire lower unit, new, is less money. Jon On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 09:02:33 AM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Expensive. On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 06:29:09 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Fischer Scientific has it. ?5 cSt is $294 per gallon, 100 cSt is $264 per gallon.? Jon On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:43:18 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water. I'd be curious to get a price quote. https://www.clearcoproducts.com/product/super-low-viscosity-pure-silicone-fluids/ Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 09:19:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:19:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <350694407.5450540.1690375586022@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> <350694407.5450540.1690375586022@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1326570190.5469775.1690377553586@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, agreed, but Karl only uses one regulator. ?I use two regulators. ?But it might fail past the pool tests. Hank On Wednesday, July 26, 2023, 06:46:45 AM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,that was how Karl was doing it. With the first stage & spring removed.I tried it but the mechanism wasn't sensitive enough. Not all first stages are the same though.I think it was 9 or 11 psi above ambient.Long time ago.Have a good dive.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 8:40 pm, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 09:25:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:25:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <313009751.5472970.1690376376802@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> <313009751.5472970.1690376376802@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1694942060.5465457.1690377931309@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, all I do is drain and fill. ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's. ?Also my springs may be stronger relative to surface area. I will be making my magnetic couplers from scratch. ?I will source SS drinking cups ?from ?Amazon and sizing the magnets to that.I plan to make entirely from plastic also.Hank ps; I can tear down my spare motor that has some hrs on it to inspect for comparison if you like. On Wednesday, July 26, 2023, 06:59:52 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, thanks for the update.? Let us know how the dive comes along with respect to the thruster compensation.? Can you send me the model number of the magnetic coupling you are working with?? I like the benefits of air compensation but with my limited HP air supply I don't like the air consumption for deep dives. Cliff On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 03:39:01 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,That really sucks you had this happen. ?I always drain my motors at years end because I dont want them weeping in my shop. ?I always have black oil come out and a wee bit of water. ?The only difference I can see is, I use 55 lb and 30 lb motors. ?I had my 55 lb motors on Gamma at one point and have travelled 1.6 km each way to a dive spot. ?The motors worked fine and still do, but were under powered, so I went a different rout. ?I used 30 lb motors for vertical thrust on Gamma with no issues, in fact, if I recall, with no provision for expansion.. ?The motors were positioned vertically with a fill plug under the propeller. ?I used those vertical thrusters at Lake Tahoe and in Montana. ? I am diving tomorrow in my DDW with two systems. ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets ?psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box. If the new air compensation system works, I will convert the aft motors as well and continue testing over the summer. ?I do however plan to make magnetic coupled ends for the motors over the winter, regardless.?Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:41:09 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh my, hope that misses you! Please keep us in the loop. Alec On Jul 25, 2023, at 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Sean,?We have the trucks full of fuel and submarine hooked up in case of lightning strike. ?There are 4 fires burning from lightning around us.I dont think the fires are too bad though. ?We also have some big rain clouds hanging around that might help.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:11:03 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 11:00:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 17:00:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1893514569.5454675.1690374938792@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1893514569.5454675.1690374938792@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1690383626750.1224592.29e05c9f62e3b8d4c89999ece879b015aee2dcb6@spica.telekom.de> The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected. I use silicone oil with a low ct around 1 after bad expierence wir air compensation. But oil compensation needs also an compensator.bag. Siliconeoil is inherend to metal and plastic. (But prevent re-glueing) ELBESIL SILIKON?L B 1 (1 cSt) - 500 g - SILIKON-PROFIS vbr Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability Datum: 2023-07-26T14:36:40+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles" These reports look good. I am in the process of digesting them. Is this the Univolt transformer oil you use? Kinematic viscosity is low at 2.3 cSt. Good point compatibly issues and need for testing. The good news on the MK 101's is there are only a few parts to evaluate, lips seals, brushes, wire insulation and for my case, a Subconn connector. The other parts are metal. I don't think the permanent magnet would be affected. Cliff On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:07:54 PM CDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, Those sound like signs of an incompatible fluid to me. Especially considering the length of time that the thrusters were filled with WD40 compared to the hours they have run in the field. The US Navy created a bunch of technical reports on various aspects of deep submergence systems design, and distributed them among defense companies and researchers as part of the "Deep Submergence Systems Project" in the 60's and 70's. All of the documents are now approved for public release and readily available online. This one is particularly interesting and relevant to this conversation. I consult it often enough that I have a physical hard-copy on my office shelf. "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" There is also: Handbook of Fluids and Lubricants for Deep Ocean Applications I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil. I maintain and operate a small fleet of ROV's and AUV's that routinely work at a depth of 6000m. All of them use motors that are compensated with either univolt transformer oil where high voltages are involved, or a silicone oil. The caveat being that all of these are brushless electric motors, so don't have the complications of carbon fouling of the fluid. We have been evaluating fluids that can serve as both a hydraulic system oil and an electrical system compensation oil, as we currently run two separate oils for each function. The problems we are running into are material compatibility with existing components. Things like wiring, heat shrink, seals, adhesives, etc. We know what not to do with Silicone and Univis, but the only way to determine the compatibility of a particular oil with a particular off the shelf or proprietary component, like a Minn Kota or any other motor, is testing. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526 rdolfi7 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 11:33:42 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1694942060.5465457.1690377931309@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801163757.5291548.1690335192592@mail.yahoo.com> <05821086-F5F8-485B-8B63-F6558B043E10@gmail.com> <963236715.5380113.1690360550707@mail.yahoo.com> <313009751.5472970.1690376376802@mail.yahoo.com> <1694942060.5465457.1690377931309@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1284065402.5546535.1690385622396@mail.yahoo.com> Would love to see what you find of the tear down.?? Best On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 08:26:08 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, all I do is drain and fill. ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's. ?Also my springs may be stronger relative to surface area. I will be making my magnetic couplers from scratch. ?I will source SS drinking cups ?from ?Amazon and sizing the magnets to that.I plan to make entirely from plastic also.Hank ps; I can tear down my spare motor that has some hrs on it to inspect for comparison if you like. On Wednesday, July 26, 2023, 06:59:52 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, thanks for the update.? Let us know how the dive comes along with respect to the thruster compensation.? Can you send me the model number of the magnetic coupling you are working with?? I like the benefits of air compensation but with my limited HP air supply I don't like the air consumption for deep dives. Cliff On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 03:39:01 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,That really sucks you had this happen. ?I always drain my motors at years end because I dont want them weeping in my shop. ?I always have black oil come out and a wee bit of water. ?The only difference I can see is, I use 55 lb and 30 lb motors. ?I had my 55 lb motors on Gamma at one point and have travelled 1.6 km each way to a dive spot. ?The motors worked fine and still do, but were under powered, so I went a different rout. ?I used 30 lb motors for vertical thrust on Gamma with no issues, in fact, if I recall, with no provision for expansion.. ?The motors were positioned vertically with a fill plug under the propeller. ?I used those vertical thrusters at Lake Tahoe and in Montana. ? I am diving tomorrow in my DDW with two systems. ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets ?psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box. If the new air compensation system works, I will convert the aft motors as well and continue testing over the summer. ?I do however plan to make magnetic coupled ends for the motors over the winter, regardless.?Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:41:09 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oh my, hope that misses you! Please keep us in the loop. Alec On Jul 25, 2023, at 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Sean,?We have the trucks full of fuel and submarine hooked up in case of lightning strike. ?There are 4 fires burning from lightning around us.I dont think the fires are too bad though. ?We also have some big rain clouds hanging around that might help.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 07:11:03 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - I just heard on The National that a wildfire is currently threatening Invermere. Not sure exactly where you are, but wondering if you're affected? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2023, 18:54, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Alec,?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. ?I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. ?The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. ?My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. ?I drain the dirty oil and replace. ? The first thing to do is to strip down a motor and plug the shaft hole and do a pressure test on the housing. ?No point in working on a seal or magnetic coupler if the housing fails early.Hank On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 06:19:24 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here's my?inspiration. I've seen several original Kittredge subs still kicking with their?original 1-atm, ceramic seal thrusters that?are probably 40 years?old. Their use is occasional, for sure, but they're maintenance has?probably been zero. What I'd like to explore is doing what the?Captain did, except with a Minnkota. If the bushings and brushes are dry and in 1 atmosphere, with the normal lubrication (a little grease on the bushings,) then I don't see why they can't have the same life as when they go fishing.? On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:53?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks for the credit Alec, I think it was Brian Hughes ideafrom a previous discussion. Glad we are making some progress.As far as the oil / air debate is concerned, I believe Carsten said that you only need a few drops of sea water into an air compensated thruster to wreck it, whereas if there is oil in there the water doesn't do the same damage.Your compensator can be used as an air over oil system.You could even run 2 thrusters off the same compensator as a test. One with oil, one just air.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 26 11:43:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:43:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1690383626750.1224592.29e05c9f62e3b8d4c89999ece879b015aee2dcb6@spica.telekom.de> References: <1893514569.5454675.1690374938792@mail.yahoo.com> <1690383626750.1224592.29e05c9f62e3b8d4c89999ece879b015aee2dcb6@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <569254352.5557165.1690386193935@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Carsten. This low viscosity silicon oil looks good.? I like the fact that it is inert to metal and plastics.? I don't think that it's preventing of gluing would impact anything I do on the Minn Kota 101s. Cliff On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 10:01:32 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected.? ? I use silicone oil with a low ct around 1 after bad expierence wir air compensation. But oil compensation needs also an compensator.bag.? Siliconeoil is inherend to metal and plastic. (But prevent re-glueing)? ? ELBESIL SILIKON?L B 1 (1 cSt) - 500 g - SILIKON-PROFIS ? ? vbr Carsten ? .? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Reliability Datum: 2023-07-26T14:36:40+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles" ? ? ? ?These reports look good.? I am in the process of digesting them.? Is this the Univolt transformer oil you use?? Kinematic viscosity is low at 2.3 cSt.?https://www.mobil.com/en-us/industrial/pds/gl-xx-univolt-n-61-b?Good point compatibly issues and need for testing.? The good news on the MK 101's is there are only a few parts to evaluate, lips seals, brushes, wire insulation and for my case, a Subconn connector.? The other parts are metal.? I don't think the permanent magnet would be affected.?Cliff??On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 07:07:54 PM CDT, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Cliff,Those sound like signs of an incompatible fluid to me. Especially considering the length of time that the thrusters were filled with WD40 compared to the hours they have?run in the field.?The US Navy created a bunch of technical reports on various aspects of deep submergence systems design, and distributed them among defense companies and researchers as part of the "Deep Submergence Systems Project" in the 60's and 70's. All of the documents are now approved for public release and readily available online. This one is particularly interesting and relevant to this conversation. I consult it often enough that I have a physical hard-copy on my office shelf."Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications"https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0894795There is also:Handbook of Fluids and Lubricants for Deep Ocean Applicationshttps://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0866350?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.?I maintain and operate a small fleet of ROV's and AUV's that routinely work at a depth of 6000m. All of them use motors that are compensated with either univolt transformer oil where high voltages are involved, or a silicone oil. The caveat being that all of these are brushless electric motors, so don't have the complications of carbon fouling of the fluid.?We have been evaluating fluids that can serve as both a hydraulic system oil and an electrical system compensation oil, as we currently run two separate oils for each function. The problems we are running into are material compatibility with existing components. Things like wiring, heat shrink, seals, adhesives, etc. We know what not to do with Silicone and Univis, but the only way to determine the compatibility of a particular oil with a particular off the shelf or proprietary component, like a Minn Kota or any other motor,?is testing.?Thanks,?-River J. Dolfi 412-997-2526rdolfi7 at gmail.com_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 27 09:32:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:32:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 27 09:56:52 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:56:52 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <-JD-DITKiulAk6nEP8o0O78kW-rKcSKobKMJVESZEbaXyT4rUfW4WCZZ1QzXLYnwWkq60-HvnfUItToIET4ERflhKZPhbXFYnaYu8axXw6U=@protonmail.com> Perhaps performance targets would be a more appropriate community standard, as opposed to a particular physical embodiment? I'm thinking specifically of the ability of an air compensation system to keep up with maximum descent rate, to vent sufficiently quickly at the maximum ascent rate, and to have sufficient HP compensation gas in reserve to accommodate some prescribed minimum number of dive cycles, as we do with ballast tank air. For oil systems, attention to dielectric strength, accommodation of thermal expansion / contraction, tolerance on continuous bias pressure, make-up oil capacity, material compatibility, ability to vent evolved air from high points, sealability (viscosity / lubricity) against rotating shafts in conjunction with their sealing arrangements, environmental and fire hazard, and oil condition / volume monitoring requirements or periodic sampling / analysis / replacement criteria? I am aware of past problems here with oil compensation systems using "flexible" tubing elements which don't collapse immediately, so perhaps a responsiveness / pressure tracking criterion? I'm a fan of the design paradigm of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both. That doesn't work for everybody. I'm not sure a "one size fits all" hardware solution is necessarily the answer here, but it certainly is worth having the discussion. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 27, 2023, 07:32, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results. > > Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 27 10:05:53 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:05:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <-JD-DITKiulAk6nEP8o0O78kW-rKcSKobKMJVESZEbaXyT4rUfW4WCZZ1QzXLYnwWkq60-HvnfUItToIET4ERflhKZPhbXFYnaYu8axXw6U=@protonmail.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <-JD-DITKiulAk6nEP8o0O78kW-rKcSKobKMJVESZEbaXyT4rUfW4WCZZ1QzXLYnwWkq60-HvnfUItToIET4ERflhKZPhbXFYnaYu8axXw6U=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <424092465.256496.1690466753273@mail.yahoo.com> All good points Sean. ?I wonder if we should try to write a project plan although I?m not a fan of too much formality. Jon On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 09:58:46 AM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Perhaps performance targets would be a more appropriate community standard, as opposed to a particular physical embodiment? I'm thinking specifically of the ability of an air compensation system to keep up with maximum descent rate, to vent sufficiently quickly at the maximum ascent rate, and to have sufficient HP compensation gas in reserve to accommodate some prescribed minimum number of dive cycles, as we do with ballast tank air. For oil systems, attention to dielectric strength, accommodation of thermal expansion / contraction, tolerance on continuous bias pressure, make-up oil capacity, material compatibility, ability to vent evolved air from high points, sealability (viscosity / lubricity) against rotating shafts in conjunction with their sealing arrangements, environmental and fire hazard, and oil condition / volume monitoring requirements or periodic sampling / analysis / replacement criteria? I am aware of past problems here with oil compensation systems using "flexible" tubing elements which don't collapse immediately, so perhaps a responsiveness / pressure tracking criterion? I'm a fan of the design paradigm of using any single seal to change fluid, or to change pressure, but not both. That doesn't work for everybody. I'm not sure a "one size fits all" hardware solution is necessarily the answer here, but it certainly is worth having the discussion. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 27, 2023, 07:32, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 27 15:50:24 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 19:50:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <424092465.256496.1690466753273@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <-JD-DITKiulAk6nEP8o0O78kW-rKcSKobKMJVESZEbaXyT4rUfW4WCZZ1QzXLYnwWkq60-HvnfUItToIET4ERflhKZPhbXFYnaYu8axXw6U=@protonmail.com> <424092465.256496.1690466753273@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1119966151.6231423.1690487424179@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,?I'm repeating myself here but I am well on the way to a good solution.?It is an adjustable air compensator that uses a second stage regulator valve. So the delivery rate is the same as a second stage regulator. I have replaced the flimsy second stage diaphragm with a 80psi rated diaphragm I had made up for me. Minimum run was 40.I am printing the body on a resin printer with tough resins suitable for sea water. I need to order in some suitable stainless springs & fittings, & twink the design.A hose from it goes to a manifold so it can service several components simultaneously.?I am building an electric manipulator, so will have air compensation on that but oil compensation on my thrusters. Both pressurised by the same air system.The air pressure over the oil will allow for expansion. No bellows required.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 at 2:09 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 27 16:43:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:43:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] todays dive References: <1139867225.6264876.1690490611953.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1139867225.6264876.1690490611953@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, I just returned from a successful dive to 60 feet with aprox 1/4 mile transit, maybe more. ?All thrusters worked perfectly with no water intrusion. ?The air compensation system seems to be woking. ?I was a bit heavy and dropped to the bottom very fast, but surfaced at a nice moderate speed. ?The air was venting from the motors all the way up and continued at the surface for a bit. ?The oil filled motors seem just fine, and I can tell by the expansion tube, it is not hard to squeeze, and is normal. ?Also the motors sound perfect still. ?I will run air lines to the back and compensate them as well. ?I will add a second relief valve at the back to help vent. ?Not sure why the 101's are giving trouble, but these little 30 lb motors are reliable as could be.I can take one apart and inspect just for the sake of clarity.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 10:14:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:14:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1119966151.6231423.1690487424179@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <-JD-DITKiulAk6nEP8o0O78kW-rKcSKobKMJVESZEbaXyT4rUfW4WCZZ1QzXLYnwWkq60-HvnfUItToIET4ERflhKZPhbXFYnaYu8axXw6U=@protonmail.com> <424092465.256496.1690466753273@mail.yahoo.com> <1119966151.6231423.1690487424179@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1049249012.6547403.1690553668525@mail.yahoo.com> Ok Alan, looking forward to seeing it. ? Jon On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 03:52:32 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?I'm repeating myself here but I am well on the way to a good solution.?It is an adjustable air compensator that uses a second stage regulator valve. So the delivery rate is the same as a second stage regulator. I have replaced the flimsy second stage diaphragm with a 80psi rated diaphragm I had made up for me. Minimum run was 40.I am printing the body on a resin printer with tough resins suitable for sea water. I need to order in some suitable stainless springs & fittings, & twink the design.A hose from it goes to a manifold so it can service several components simultaneously.?I am building an electric manipulator, so will have air compensation on that but oil compensation on my thrusters. Both pressurised by the same air system.The air pressure over the oil will allow for expansion. No bellows required.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 at 2:09 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 10:16:41 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:16:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] todays dive In-Reply-To: <1139867225.6264876.1690490611953@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1139867225.6264876.1690490611953.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1139867225.6264876.1690490611953@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1952960988.6559384.1690553801391@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I think it would be interesting to strip it just to see if there is any wear. ?I am going ?to upload photos of Cliffs motor so everyone can see the wear on his unit. ? Jon On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 04:46:59 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I just returned from a successful dive to 60 feet with aprox 1/4 mile transit, maybe more. ?All thrusters worked perfectly with no water intrusion. ?The air compensation system seems to be woking. ?I was a bit heavy and dropped to the bottom very fast, but surfaced at a nice moderate speed. ?The air was venting from the motors all the way up and continued at the surface for a bit. ?The oil filled motors seem just fine, and I can tell by the expansion tube, it is not hard to squeeze, and is normal. ?Also the motors sound perfect still. ?I will run air lines to the back and compensate them as well. ?I will add a second relief valve at the back to help vent. ?Not sure why the 101's are giving trouble, but these little 30 lb motors are reliable as could be.I can take one apart and inspect just for the sake of clarity.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 20:40:37 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 00:40:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)???Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy ofusing WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its knownproperties.? Particularly it being a penetrantas opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carstenis using silicone fluid - ELBESILOIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? bythe WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled,Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommendsas a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt.This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special lowviscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, toprovide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolttransformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? FischerScientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at$294 per gallon 6)??? Seanpoints out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils)with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hankon his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the smallmotors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative tosurface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like themess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation.?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a firststage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. Theregulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank.? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added anadjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problemwith air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck withthe Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scubaregulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going tothe motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it ismounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?Iam working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and havetwo 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smallermotors.? My oil goes black right away andI do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?Onething I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internalover-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressureregulator.? 11)?"Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systemsfor Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filteringdevices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wearsurfaces.? Particle contamination may becontinuously circulated in an individual case.?Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volumeavailable to dilute the carbon.? Bearingwear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease ascarbon contamination ensues.? Carbonbuildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing andgrounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination isthe d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)?From an article on ?Brush life inDC motors? under erosion, ?Sparkingincreases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases withincreased sparking.? 13)?Alec, Hank and I all saw the10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)?Alec and I both use accordion shapedbladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.?At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you wouldexpect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.?Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger currentpassing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcingin the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)?Sean and others have noted that adifference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect thatis dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.?The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators tosome degree overcoming the brush spring load.?Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is lossof performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)?River, ?I suspect that thebushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choicefor lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not alubricating oil.? ? We have a numberof ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensatedthruster design.? Alec is planning ontrying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live withwhatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I cantest under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 fthis new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oilto this same air compensation system.?His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brushdebris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magneticcoupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandonoil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in mypool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscositysilicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolttransformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control Iwill run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh thebrushes to measure the wear per unit time.?The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, currentand voltage to the motor.? I will alsoadd a motor pressure measurement.? If arcingcauses gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so thepressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will needto add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by themotor under load.? WhatI am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better atminimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.?At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth onthe armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t seethe need to replace the lip seals each time. Forwhich ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, mediumand low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performanceas well a brush life. IfI cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, Iwill abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alecor Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.?Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushlessthruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 21:38:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 01:38:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort. I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications. To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1) Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties. Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2) Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane with a viscosity of 1 cSt. ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3) "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their requirements Tellus 11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4) River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5) Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6) Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7) Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season. ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's. Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8) Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. I have a good feeling about the air system. I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. The 2 pounds is a guess. To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9) Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10) Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795) is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11) "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces. Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case. Especially with d-c motor, the problem carbon brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon. Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues. Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding. Another additive effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.? 12) From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13) Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14) Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s. At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40. Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion. This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15) Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity. The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load. Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16) River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design. Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand. I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101. Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system. His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt). As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm). For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed. Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time. The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor. I will also add a motor pressure measurement. If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor. The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series. To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load. What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear. At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator. For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works. Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 21:52:09 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 01:52:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just to add, the SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG oil has a kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C. I expect the performance in a motor would accordingly depend strongly on operating temperature. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 19:38, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. > > Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort. I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. > > Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications. To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. > > Below are my key notes from this thread. > > Notes: > 1) Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties. Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. > 2) Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane with a viscosity of 1 cSt. ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. > 3) "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their requirements Tellus 11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. > 4) River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. > 5) Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid 5 cSt at $294 per gallon > 6) Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? > 7) Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season. ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's. Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? > 8) Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. I have a good feeling about the air system. I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. The 2 pounds is a guess. To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? > 9) Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter. I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years. The only difference is, I use much smaller motors. My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end. I drain the dirty oil and replace.? > 10) Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795) is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? > 11) "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces. Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case. Especially with d-c motor, the problem carbon brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon. Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues. Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding. Another additive effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.? > 12) From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? > 13) Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. > 14) Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s. At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40. Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion. This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. > 15) Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity. The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load. Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. > 16) River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? > > We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design. Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand. I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101. Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system. His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. > Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt). As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm). For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed. Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time. The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor. I will also add a motor pressure measurement. If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor. The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series. To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load. > What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear. At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator. For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. > For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. > If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works. Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. > Cliff > > On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 22:23:21 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 02:23:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 22:45:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 02:45:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I don't think brushed motors are the way to go.The brushes can contaminate the oil & lift due to the centrifugal force of the oil. And they are less efficient than brushless motors. Also the 101s have that double o-ring seal system, that means one of the o-rings will fail when over 30ft or so.A descent brushless option with a ceramic mechanical seal and silicone compensation would be a big improvement.I bought some of the Shell Morlina some years ago.? An industrial chemist advised me it was low in aromatics and less likely to dissolve plastics than other options. I believe it was used to lubricate high speed spindles etc.It still had an effect on plastics.Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 at 12:42 pm, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 28 23:01:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:01:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FF2F664-9954-48EB-99D3-D603CD196D4A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 00:28:06 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 04:28:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn-Kota 101 WD-40 Thruster Teardown References: <1143463933.6869721.1690604886643.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1143463933.6869721.1690604886643@mail.yahoo.com> I have added photos of the MK-101 teardown on the website. ?Use the following link: http://www.psubs.org/projects/1234567801/mk-101oilcompteardown/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 00:32:55 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 04:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> I share Sean?s interest in trying a higher viscous oil. ?I?d be willing to trade some amount of thrust for brush stability. ?It may not be as efficient as air but we have identified some limitations of air compensation especially when diving in remote locations without many commercial fill locations.? Jon On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:25:06 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 00:36:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 04:36:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1117791252.6866887.1690605395235@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, what is the volume of oil you are using to fill the housing? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:34:24 AM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I share Sean?s interest in trying a higher viscous oil. ?I?d be willing to trade some amount of thrust for brush stability. ?It may not be as efficient as air but we have identified some limitations of air compensation especially when diving in remote locations without many commercial fill locations.? Jon On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:25:06 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 09:52:20 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 13:52:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability References: <954010723.684657.1690638740124.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <954010723.684657.1690638740124@mail.yahoo.com> John, I think mineral oil might work.? See page III-11, section 3.5 in??" https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD0894795 ?I don't know anything about these thruster??motors but this oil?is a petroleum?base, red, hydraulic?oil that is essentially mineral?oil.? See?https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/what-is-mil-h-5606/?for more info on?MIL-H-5606.? It has a kinematic viscosity of 13.8 cs at 100 F and 0 psig. More than likely this is brushless motor with the brush arcing issues that we are seeing not relevant. Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:02:26 PM CDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: While a little out of my depth on technical specs here- A good friend and coworker here in San Diego has been an interesting person to discuss my ?new hobby? with: He briefly worked as an electronic technician on ROVs with the Navy Deep Submergence Unit here, around the turn of this century. When I told him about this discussion, his memory was that their oil compensation was done with plain old mineral oil. Unsure if it?s worth considering but thought I?d share that historical context. John Sent from my iPhone On Jul 28, 2023, at 19:46, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Cliff,I don't think brushed motors are the way to go.The brushes can contaminate the oil & lift due to the centrifugal force of the oil. And they are less efficient than brushless motors. Also the 101s have that double o-ring seal system, that means one of the o-rings will fail when over 30ft or so.A descent brushless option with a ceramic mechanical seal and silicone compensation would be a big improvement.I bought some of the Shell Morlina some years ago.? An industrial chemist advised me it was low in aromatics and less likely to dissolve plastics than other options. I believe it was used to lubricate high speed spindles etc.It still had an effect on plastics.Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 at 12:42 pm, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 10:02:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:02:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, a couple of points. I am not arguing that an oil compensated 101 is better than a purpose build brushless thruster.? It is just a cost thing for me.? Unless you are a machinist, my guess it is going to cost you several thousand dollars in the states to machine the thruster you have designed. OTS thrusters go for $5K and up and run at a much higher voltage than psubbers normally run at.? Using the 101, with all its weaknesses, is a low-cost way for psubbers to fabricate a thruster.? Given these constraints, I am just trying to make these function more reliably. With any luck, at the speed Hank works, he has already fabricated a 1-atm 101 with a magnetic coupling as tested to 1000 ft and all we have to do is work up the fabrication drawing! Keep us in the loop on progress on your thruster project. Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 09:46:14 PM CDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I don't think brushed motors are the way to go.The brushes can contaminate the oil & lift due to the centrifugal force of the oil. And they are less efficient than brushless motors. Also the 101s have that double o-ring seal system, that means one of the o-rings will fail when over 30ft or so.A descent brushless option with a ceramic mechanical seal and silicone compensation would be a big improvement.I bought some of the Shell Morlina some years ago.? An industrial chemist advised me it was low in aromatics and less likely to dissolve plastics than other options. I believe it was used to lubricate high speed spindles etc.It still had an effect on plastics.Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 at 12:42 pm, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 10:04:06 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:04:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1117791252.6866887.1690605395235@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> <1117791252.6866887.1690605395235@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <233169842.6935038.1690639446561@mail.yahoo.com> 37 fluid oz. Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 11:37:09 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, what is the volume of oil you are using to fill the housing? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:34:24 AM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I share Sean?s interest in trying a higher viscous oil. ?I?d be willing to trade some amount of thrust for brush stability. ?It may not be as efficient as air but we have identified some limitations of air compensation especially when diving in remote locations without many commercial fill locations.? Jon On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:25:06 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 11:16:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:16:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <233169842.6935038.1690639446561@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> <1117791252.6866887.1690605395235@mail.yahoo.com> <233169842.6935038.1690639446561@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <301473528.6953878.1690643793644@mail.yahoo.com> I?m surprised. ?Doesn?t seem like there?s that much room in there given the stator, armature, brushes and other parts.? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 10:05:51 AM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 37 fluid oz. Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 11:37:09 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, what is the volume of oil you are using to fill the housing? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:34:24 AM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I share Sean?s interest in trying a higher viscous oil. ?I?d be willing to trade some amount of thrust for brush stability. ?It may not be as efficient as air but we have identified some limitations of air compensation especially when diving in remote locations without many commercial fill locations.? Jon On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:25:06 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 11:35:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:35:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <301473528.6953878.1690643793644@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <1595795864.6849195.1690597401103@mail.yahoo.com> <1986322035.6874947.1690605175866@mail.yahoo.com> <1117791252.6866887.1690605395235@mail.yahoo.com> <233169842.6935038.1690639446561@mail.yahoo.com> <301473528.6953878.1690643793644@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59997604.6952406.1690644957539@mail.yahoo.com> This is what I measured the last time I filled a 101. Cliff On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 10:17:14 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I?m surprised. ?Doesn?t seem like there?s that much room in there given the stator, armature, brushes and other parts.? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 10:05:51 AM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 37 fluid oz. Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 11:37:09 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, what is the volume of oil you are using to fill the housing? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:34:24 AM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I share Sean?s interest in trying a higher viscous oil. ?I?d be willing to trade some amount of thrust for brush stability. ?It may not be as efficient as air but we have identified some limitations of air compensation especially when diving in remote locations without many commercial fill locations.? Jon On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 10:25:06 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I am willing to add another oil to the test as well as WD-40.? These are not long of test so I don't see any issue in adding another oil.? But, given the large viscosity dependency on temperature of the Shell DIALA S4 ZX-IG? (kinematic viscosity of 35 cSt at 0?C, 7.4 cSt at 40?C, and 2.2 cSt at 100?C.), I to would expect a strong dependence?on operating temperature.? If I remember correctly, thrust goes as a square of rpm. The 101 factory prop is matched to the rpm that the MK 101 make with air inside.? With viscosity, the drop off in performance?will be significant particularly?in cold water until motor warms up.? We might be solving one problem (arcing and low run times) at the expense?of what HP the thruster can put out. What I don't have a feel for is how the motor fluid temperature will vary with ambient water temperature.? For sure if we use this oil, we will need to add an RTD to the motor to track internal motor temperature.? I say we try it and add an internal?RTD to the motor and one for ambient water temperature. The prior testing,?I did on bollard thrust was with air filled OTS MD 101's with different props.? It will be interesting?to see how much thrust we lose?by going to oil compensation. River, can you send me the name and part number for the silicon oil you reference that you use in your ROV's.? ?Cliff On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 08:39:10 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, the SHELL MORLINA S2 BL 5 oil that you propose to test is listed as a bearing and circulating oil by design intent, and while it is likely to imply a higher kinematic viscosity, I wonder if there might be merit to choosing a purpose-specific electrical oil and then dealing with the increased viscosity, versus a lubricating oil with additives and then having to deal with insufficient dielectric insulation, as the latter property could well be contributing to contamination where it breaks down in an arc gap. While a higher viscosity oil would lower motor RPM, it could be that the resultant speed reduction reduces the tendency of the brushes to build an oil journal gap to a greater extent than the higher viscosity increases it. Specifically, I might look at SHELL DIALA S4 ZX-IG, which is both biodegradeable (as it leaks from seals), and has gas absorbing properties. The viscosity of this one appears to be strongly proportional to temperature - I'm curious if the motor has a substantial warming effect on the compensation oil, or if that volume consistently approximates the seawater temperature? In any case, I wonder if it would be possible to also test this as a candidate? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 28, 2023, 18:40, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort.? I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues. Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications.? To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope. Below are my key notes from this thread. Notes: 1)??? Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known properties.? Particularly it being a penetrant as opposed to an oil that has lubricity. 2)??? Carsten is using silicone fluid - ELBESIL OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane?with a viscosity of 1 cSt.?? ?Also The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected? by the WD-40. 3)??? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their?requirements Tellus?11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic viscosity 5 cSt. This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools. 4)??? River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt transformer oil which has a kinematic?viscosity 5 cSt, or silicone fluid. 5)??? Fischer Scientific has a silicone fluid? 5 cSt at $294 per gallon 6)??? Sean points out ?Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils) with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.? 7)??? Hank on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.? ?The oil is dirty but no sludge. ?My feeling is the low amps from the small motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.? Also, my springs may be stronger relative to surface area.? 8)??? Hank, ?For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the mess. ?I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation. ?I have a good feeling about the air system. ?I am using a first stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank. ? The 2 pounds is a guess. ?To relieve the pressure, I have added an adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. ?I think the problem with air compensation has been the regulator choice. ?I had no luck with the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. ?My theory on the scuba regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to the motors. ?The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is mounted to the arm with a large junction box.? 9)??? Hank, ?I am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.? I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.? The only difference is, I use much smaller motors.? My oil goes black right away and I do get a very small amount of water by season end.? I drain the dirty oil and replace.? 10)? Alan ?One thing I gleaned from that reading (AD894795)?is that there is always an internal over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure regulator.? 11)? "Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual?Case ?There is a need for filtering devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear surfaces.? Particle contamination may be continuously circulated in an individual case.? Especially with d-c motor, the?problem carbon?brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume available to dilute the carbon.? Bearing wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as carbon contamination ensues.? Carbon buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and grounding.??Another additive?effect of carbon contamination is the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.?? 12)? From an article on ?Brush life in DC motors? under erosion, ?Sparking increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with increased sparking.? 13)? Alec, Hank and I all saw the 10W-40 turn black very quickly. 14)? Alec and I both use accordion shaped bladder for thermal expansion on our 101?s.? At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.? Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.? This leads me to think the larger current passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing in the 101 and this more gas generation. 15)? Sean and others have noted that a difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.? The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to some degree overcoming the brush spring load.? Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss of performance and accelerated wear on brushes. 16)? River, ?I suspect that the bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a lubricating oil.? ? We have a number of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated thruster design.? Alec is planning on trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.? I have a pressure test chamber that I can test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.? Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil to this same air compensation system.? His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic coupler on a 101 this winter. Before I abandon oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity silicone fluid, 2) Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt transformer oil (5 cSt).? As a control I will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).? For each case I will run the thrusters for 48 hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.? Before and after each test I will weigh the brushes to measure the wear per unit time.? The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current and voltage to the motor.? I will also add a motor pressure measurement.? If arcing causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.? The test rig as it now sets is run off three 12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.? To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the motor under load.? What I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.? At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on the armature commutator.? ?For these full-load 48-hour test, I don?t see the need to replace the lip seals each time. For which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance as well a brush life. If I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.? Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless thruster design works. Cliff On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I would like this group ?think tank? to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. ? It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. ?I?m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results.? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 13:09:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 17:09:31 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders Message-ID: Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of multiprocess machines? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 13:52:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 19:52:13 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> Sean, Most professionals do not use multiprocess machines. However, Stick welding option is included in most TIG machines. I consider 220 Volt MIG/MAG machines as a bit too light for submersible work. Should have at least 250 Amps and can handle 1 mm wire to weld hull material. BR, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 29 juli 2023 19:10 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of multiprocess machines? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 14:08:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:08:19 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders In-Reply-To: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> References: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: Meaning I either need three phase service (cost prohibitive and often unavailable in residential areas anyway), or need an engine / generator driven machine? The multimatic claims to handle up to 3/8" material at its limited duty cycle. For the amount of time I would ever need to weld thicker material, I figure I could farm out those jobs. I wouldn't be comfortable doing my own pressure boundary welds in any case. I'm a designer, not a craftsman, and that seems like an appropriate time to engage a professional. I was just thinking structures and hobby projects (trailer frames) etc. If the multiprocess machine won't perform to the published specs though, that's another matter entirely. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 29, 2023, 11:51, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > > Most professionals do not use multiprocess machines. However, Stick welding option is included in most TIG machines. > > I consider 220 Volt MIG/MAG machines as a bit too light for submersible work. Should have at least 250 Amps and can handle 1 mm wire to weld hull material. > > BR, Emile > > Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > Verzonden: zaterdag 29 juli 2023 19:10 > Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders > > Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? > > I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of multiprocess machines? > > Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 14:28:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:28:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders In-Reply-To: References: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: <239056154.6565937.1690655331790@mail.yahoo.com> I have an Longevity 250 stick welder that has been pretty reliable and works on single phase 240v. ?I did have a situation where it would power up but not weld after just sitting around for awhile. ?I took the cover off and found that the standoffs for the circuit board had crumbled?I replaced then and it started welding perfectly again. ? I am looking at the Everlast 255EXT for a tig welder which is also a 240v single phase unit. ? I will also say that I find acetylene gas welding indispensable in some circumstances. ? Jon On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:00 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Meaning I either need three phase service (cost prohibitive and often unavailable in residential areas anyway), or need an engine / generator driven machine? The multimatic claims to handle up to 3/8" material at its limited duty cycle. For the amount of time I would ever need to weld thicker material, I figure I could farm out those jobs. I wouldn't be comfortable doing my own pressure boundary welds in any case. I'm a designer, not a craftsman, and that seems like an appropriate time to engage a professional. I was just thinking structures and hobby projects (trailer frames) etc. If the multiprocess machine won't perform to the published specs though, that's another matter entirely. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 29, 2023, 11:51, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, ? Most professionals do not use multiprocess machines. However, Stick welding option is included in most TIG machines. I consider 220 Volt MIG/MAG machines as a bit too light for submersible work. Should have at least 250 Amps and can handle 1 mm wire to weld hull material. ? BR, Emile ? Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: zaterdag 29 juli 2023 19:10 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders ? Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of multiprocess machines? Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 15:06:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 19:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1223536613.7013973.1690657579282@mail.yahoo.com> Sean I have two welders: 1) Miller Regency 250 CV-DC arc welding power supply with a Miller S022A Wire Feeder2) Miller Diversion 180 tig welder. These are run off single phase 50A 240 V service.? I, use these on sub related projects but like you I am more comfortable designing than welding, so no pressure boundary welds for me.?? Even though Dan Lance did his best to bring me along with TIG? welding earlier this year (thanks Dan), I find myself more comfortable with MIG.? I am still coming up the learning curve on the TIG welder. Cliff On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 12:10:15 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of multiprocess machines? Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 17:14:55 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 21:14:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2137092297.7047723.1690665295203@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I finished my brushless thruster about 5 years or so back.?Did pool tests and trials on an inflatable.? I do however want to re-do this with an in-runner rather than outrunner motor.?I hear you re a solution for everyone & are suggesting that rather than re-purpose the 101, re purpose a brushless electric outboard, or similar.?I have added a couple of pictures to get you thinking outside the box.The latter being a thruster I purchased but haven't trialed yet. Caroute put out a good brushless outboard in varying sizes.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 2:04 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20230730-090342.png Type: image/png Size: 236080 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20230730_090601_553.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3410147 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 17:24:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Raphael SOULIAC via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 23:24:57 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Acrylic cylinder viewport Message-ID: Hey guys, i'm currently in the process of designing a little deepworker style sub and i'm wondering if the benefits of a cylindrical acrylic viewport (higher freeboard, better view, steel hatch with vents) are worth the inconvenients (more wheight on top, price, ...). PS: Yes i know it will be very smililar to hank pronk's project with a cylindrical viewport. Raphael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 19:28:32 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2023 19:28:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders In-Reply-To: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> References: <05f401d9c245$67f12850$37d378f0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: Emile , I agree with you wholeheartedly.....the average multi process welding machine just does not have the duty cycle to do consistent "code" quality work. If a person wants to weld their sub with the MIG/MAG process they need to be in the higher amperage "Spray Arc Mode" which usually requires having 3phase power. A typical multi process / light duty MIG machine is designed to run in the "Short Circuit Mode" which is adequate for welding sheet metal and thicker gauges up to (1/4" , 6mm) . Yes , you can crank those machines up to their maximum settings and maybe run in "Spray Arc" for a brief period . But soon you exceed its duty cycle and your back running in "Short Circuit " .....not adequate for submarine work. If anyone looks at the professional literature on this subject they will quickly learn that "Short Circuit" is not the place to be for pressure vessel quality work...the weld might "look" really pretty . In the end it's all about pressure cycles...and how many you might get away with before it fails......( The phrase "Stockton Rush " should come to mind ! I have a Miller XMT 350 that I run TIG roots with and then fill and cap in SMAW mode with 7018 for mild steel and 316L for stainless steel. Cliff, you are welcome back for a refresher anytime ! Getting proficient at welding is all repetition . Dan Lance On Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 1:50 PM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sean, > > > > Most professionals do not use multiprocess machines. However, Stick > welding option is included in most TIG machines. > > I consider 220 Volt MIG/MAG machines as a bit too light for submersible > work. Should have at least 250 Amps and can handle 1 mm wire to weld hull > material. > > > > BR, Emile > > > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles *Namens > *Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 29 juli 2023 19:10 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Welders > > > > Curious to know what welding machines our members are using (those of you > doing your own welds), and what your impressions are? > > I am considering purchasing a Miller Multimatic 220 AC/DC machine, which > will do GMAW (MIG), GTAW (TIG), and SMAW (stick). The unit is well > reviewed, but pricy. Does anyone here have experience with these sorts of > multiprocess machines? > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 20:16:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 00:16:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <2137092297.7047723.1690665295203@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> <2137092297.7047723.1690665295203@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <925921626.7081403.1690676196238@mail.yahoo.com> Alan I looked at the Caroute site.? They have some good options.? For me, the changeover to these would be harder as my propulsion voltage is 36V.? All of these seem to be either 24V or 48V.? The price for a 101 lower unit is about $300 US?https://trollingmotorparts.com/minn-kota-lower-unit-w-prop-variable-speed-101/? I looked at the Caroute S400-48V 180LB Electric Boat Trolling Motor withSpeed Controller 180 Pound Large Thrust Saltwater for DIY., it runs $1600 in US. The Caroute is a more powerful motor at 180 lbs of thrust. When you dissemble your?Caroute, I would be interested in how hard you think it would be to pressure compensate. I agree we need to keep an open mind on these thrusters. Cliff On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:16:59 PM CDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I finished my brushless thruster about 5 years or so back.?Did pool tests and trials on an inflatable.? I do however want to re-do this with an in-runner rather than outrunner motor.?I hear you re a solution for everyone & are suggesting that rather than re-purpose the 101, re purpose a brushless electric outboard, or similar.?I have added a couple of pictures to get you thinking outside the box.The latter being a thruster I purchased but haven't trialed yet. Caroute put out a good brushless outboard in varying sizes.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 2:04 am, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Screenshot_20230730-090342.png Type: image/png Size: 236080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 21:02:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 01:02:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <925921626.7081403.1690676196238@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> <2137092297.7047723.1690665295203@mail.yahoo.com> <925921626.7081403.1690676196238@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1474698160.7079703.1690678960290@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,they have a 36V option on the 120lb unit.I sent off a price request for the 100lb unit.If I bought it I would be more inclined to use my own Vesc motor controller as there are a number of feedback & display options as well as software for fine tuning.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 12:22 pm, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 29 21:22:52 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 01:22:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Minn Kotta 101 - Thruster Reliability In-Reply-To: <1474698160.7079703.1690678960290@mail.yahoo.com> References: <507040478.6016650.1690464746087.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <507040478.6016650.1690464746087@mail.yahoo.com> <762985273.6824796.1690591237471@mail.yahoo.com> <18248001.6861519.1690598734939@mail.yahoo.com> <350702735.6495234.1690639348613@mail.yahoo.com> <2137092297.7047723.1690665295203@mail.yahoo.com> <925921626.7081403.1690676196238@mail.yahoo.com> <1474698160.7079703.1690678960290@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1229356475.7092340.1690680172110@mail.yahoo.com> I went through all the products.? I don't see a 36V option for 120 lb thrust unit.? Can you send link? Best On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 08:03:24 PM CDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,they have a 36V option on the 120lb unit.I sent off a price request for the 100lb unit.If I bought it I would be more inclined to use my own Vesc motor controller as there are a number of feedback & display options as well as software for fine tuning.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 12:22 pm, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 10:32:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 14:32:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 12:48:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 16:48:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8761530.7217610.1690735727450@mail.yahoo.com> Can someone check my math? ?I?m trying to get a better handle on air compensated consumption. ?At 37oz volume, each MK101 would consume .03864 cu ft of air at sea level and .34776 cu ft of air at 300 foot depth. ?Given four motors that would total 1.4 cu ft of air consumption per 300 foot dive and allow for approximately 57 dives with an 80 cu ft tank dedicated for the motors. ? Cliff, does this sound accurate or do you feel you were consuming more air than these figures would indicate? Jon On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 10:37:07 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 15:18:37 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 19:18:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 15:20:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 19:20:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <8761530.7217610.1690735727450@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <8761530.7217610.1690735727450@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <653340021.7242677.1690744810923@mail.yahoo.com> I should have read your post before I just sent this email.? I came up with 1.5 scf.? Answer depends on assumptions of surface and bottom temperature. On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 11:49:28 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone check my math? ?I?m trying to get a better handle on air compensated consumption. ?At 37oz volume, each MK101 would consume .03864 cu ft of air at sea level and .34776 cu ft of air at 300 foot depth. ?Given four motors that would total 1.4 cu ft of air consumption per 300 foot dive and allow for approximately 57 dives with an 80 cu ft tank dedicated for the motors. ? Cliff, does this sound accurate or do you feel you were consuming more air than these figures would indicate? Jon On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 10:37:07 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 30 18:16:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 22:16:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <653340021.7242677.1690744810923@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <8761530.7217610.1690735727450@mail.yahoo.com> <653340021.7242677.1690744810923@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1944625356.7303524.1690755400734@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, as much as I like the magnetic coupler idea, the air compensation system is looking very good. ?Alan has been preaching about having an over pressure, and ?seems the answer. ?This regulator setup allows for that with real simplicity and looks very clean. ?I will keep you posted on results from upcoming dives. ?The nice ?part of this is the regulator is dirt cheap on Amazon.Hank On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 01:20:30 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I should have read your post before I just sent this email.? I came up with 1.5 scf.? Answer depends on assumptions of surface and bottom temperature. On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 11:49:28 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone check my math? ?I?m trying to get a better handle on air compensated consumption. ?At 37oz volume, each MK101 would consume .03864 cu ft of air at sea level and .34776 cu ft of air at 300 foot depth. ?Given four motors that would total 1.4 cu ft of air consumption per 300 foot dive and allow for approximately 57 dives with an 80 cu ft tank dedicated for the motors. ? Cliff, does this sound accurate or do you feel you were consuming more air than these figures would indicate? Jon On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 10:37:07 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 05:33:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 09:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> I don?t think we should lose sight of the logistical issues surrounding air comp including regulators and hoses which open potential failure points, and the potential of additional tanks and getting them filled in a location that does not have good SCUBA support. ?Just the fact that oil comp reduces the number of components to achieve the intended result makes it an attractive option in my eyes.? Cliff, the photos appear to show a lot of sludge?do you attribute this to the brushes only? ?How badly were the brushes worn and are they still solid or has the oil penetrated them to the point that they are soft and decaying? ? Are all four motors in the same condition with score marks on the shaft and commutator? Jon On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:20:17 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 08:22:53 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 12:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1016272161.7475146.1690806173538@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, you have to keep your existing first stage regulator anyways. ?You simple remove one of your low pressure plugs and connect a line to feed the second regulator, witch is the modified first stage. ? That is assuming you have not utilized the two extra ports already. ?I am not great at explaining, so if it works out I will make a how to video.Hank On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 01:18:56 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 08:52:08 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 12:52:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30541705.7487278.1690807928067@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, from my perspective, it is true that there is more kit required for air compensation.? For the R300 the incremental parts are an additional regulator that can be set to 2-5 psi above ambient water pressure and an over pressure valve and some 1/4 SS tubing and fittings.? When I orginaly had air compensation on this boat, I combined the regulator and over pressure function in a single regulator.? I would use the existing HP air supply.? And yes, these do introduce additional leak points.? As I use Swagelok fittings, this air leakage is almost nonexistent.? Having said that all this, oil compensation has fewer components.? I am still of two minds on this compensation business for the 101s. As such, I am still researching a way forward. "the photos appear to show a lot of sludge?do you attribute this to the brushes only?"??100% yes.? ?I know that part of black appearance of the WD-40 fluid was suspended particles of the brush.? Part of the blackness is probably due to arcing that is cooking the WD-40.? Gas for sure has to be coming from arcing. "How badly were the brushes worn and are they still solid or has the oil penetrated them to the point that they are soft and decaying?"? ?The brushes in this motor were?completely?worn down so that they were no longer making contact with commutator.? At the Beaver Island expedition, after disassembly and inspection, since I did not have replacement parts i.e., lip seals, shaft bushing and brush set, I elected to just put the motor back together for the open house and trip back home.? While apart I did not test how soft the brushes were.? I am waiting on rebuilding all the thrusters until I pick a compensation oil. "Are all four motors in the same condition with score marks on the shaft and commutator?"? Unknown.? I have not disassembled?them.? When I do, I will report findings.? At the end of last year's?diving season.? I was having trouble with my starboard vertical thruster.? It was not generating as much thrust as the identical port vertical thruster.? When I had the boat in the water for diving in Lake Charlevoix, when I would ascend, the boat would noticeably?roll to the starboard?side.? When I got back from the trip, I investigated this by temporarily?wiring this problematic?thruster from the opposite?side.? Same symptoms?so this told me the issue was the thruster?itself and not the motor controller.? Upon disassembly, I did notice some brush sludge but not at the level of the aft thruster that failed this year.? Also,?the brush was worn but not excessively.? I did notice the commutator looked bad.? I used Emory?cloth on the commutator?and replace the brush set and reassembled.? I did not notice any wear ridges on the shaft.? This brought the thruster?back to 100%.? I did not experience any rolling on ascent at the Beaver Island?expedition.? My take on the brush wear being less than the aft thruster that failed was the stern thrusters?are used for propulsion and yaw control so get more use than vertical thrusters. Cliff On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 04:34:06 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I don?t think we should lose sight of the logistical issues surrounding air comp including regulators and hoses which open potential failure points, and the potential of additional tanks and getting them filled in a location that does not have good SCUBA support. ?Just the fact that oil comp reduces the number of components to achieve the intended result makes it an attractive option in my eyes.? Cliff, the photos appear to show a lot of sludge?do you attribute this to the brushes only? ?How badly were the brushes worn and are they still solid or has the oil penetrated them to the point that they are soft and decaying? ? Are all four motors in the same condition with score marks on the shaft and commutator? Jon On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:20:17 PM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 09:59:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 13:59:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1016272161.7475146.1690806173538@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1016272161.7475146.1690806173538@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2086097075.7535421.1690811988366@mail.yahoo.com> I understand your description.? I need to check the availably of LP ports on my first stage regulator.? I use one to bring regulated air into the boat for MBT and BIBS.? I should have a spare LP port.? If not, this is not a problem, as I can just put a T fitting in the LP 1/4" SS tubing.? Need to spec a piston style 1st regulator that can get me 2-5 psi over ambient. Best On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 07:23:37 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, you have to keep your existing first stage regulator anyways. ?You simple remove one of your low pressure plugs and connect a line to feed the second regulator, witch is the modified first stage. ? That is assuming you have not utilized the two extra ports already. ?I am not great at explaining, so if it works out I will make a how to video.Hank On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 01:18:56 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 17:47:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 21:47:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,?can you describe a reasonable & cheap oil compensation system?All the commercial units & X navy literature describe an over-pressure system that is not easy to build.I would consider the air used in an air compensation system to be minimal compared with blowing your ballast tanks every dive. Scuba systems seem to have very few failures so, that shouldn't be an issue.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 at 9:36 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 18:37:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 22:37:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <2086097075.7535421.1690811988366@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1016272161.7475146.1690806173538@mail.yahoo.com> <2086097075.7535421.1690811988366@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <311183037.198183.1690843033178@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff, I just removed the spring from the first stage regulator to experiment ?and ?was shocked at the great result of 2 psi or so.Hank On Monday, July 31, 2023, 08:00:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I understand your description.? I need to check the availably of LP ports on my first stage regulator.? I use one to bring regulated air into the boat for MBT and BIBS.? I should have a spare LP port.? If not, this is not a problem, as I can just put a T fitting in the LP 1/4" SS tubing.? Need to spec a piston style 1st regulator that can get me 2-5 psi over ambient. Best On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 07:23:37 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, you have to keep your existing first stage regulator anyways. ?You simple remove one of your low pressure plugs and connect a line to feed the second regulator, witch is the modified first stage. ? That is assuming you have not utilized the two extra ports already. ?I am not great at explaining, so if it works out I will make a how to video.Hank On Sunday, July 30, 2023, 01:18:56 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I did a calculation yesterday as to how much air it would take for the four Minn Kota 101s for a round trip to 300 fsw and back.? The answer was 1.5 SCF for the total (37 fluid oz internal volume in each thruster).? This was less than I expected so I am not feeling so concerned about the R300 HP air supply if I switch back to air compensation.? I have not made this decision yet, but I don't have high hopes that I am going to be able to find an oil that will not be affected by the arcing for these 101s. Gas leak detection with soapy water works.? Can you send me the make and model of the first stage scuba regulator you are using and the part number for the pressure relief valve you are using?? If I switch back to air compensation, I cannot use the first stage I have because I have need for it at 50 psig above ambient for BIBS and MBT blowing.? I found the previous pressure regulator I used was just too small to handle four thrusters which was how it was plumbed.? It sounds like your regulator might work better.?? I will be interested in your next dive with all four thrusters under air compensation.? Hopefully it will be deeper to give the air compensation system a good test. Cliff On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:36:09 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff, I am wondering if you can reduce the volume of air inside the motor to reduce air consumption? ?Maybe some form fitted plastic inserts between the magnets etc. I have just discovered a nice feature while connecting my rear thrusters to the air compensation ?system this morning. ?You can pressure test for leaks with your soapy water sprayer.?Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 21:09:07 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (vbra676539@aol.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 01:09:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <834807551.132992.1690852147832@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, Pardon me for butting in, but I can shed at least a little light on this The HYCO Hymak thrusters were oil compensated, and about as simple as you could get. The nose you see in the pictures is actaally a free flooding fiberglass cap and flange retainer for a Haldex rubber diaphragm screwed down to the forward end of the motor cyleinger. Fill and spill valves were top and bottom about mid-way down the motor housing, and the seals were rudimentary as there was effectively no pressure differential internal to external. No tubing. No seperate bladders. As a side note, the stators were cast in epoxy and machined to tolerance to reduce internal turbulance. Also, the motors were custom wound with square wire, which gave us a very compact 120 volt motor drawing about 50 amps to produce 5 horsepower. And just for base information, this hard-hearted little monster fed straight into a planetary reduction gear set that let us turn that 14 X 14 prop in a Kort nozzle. Very beefy for its day. You want a little contrast now to then, have a look at the ring thrusters on Pisces VI. They produce 50# more thrust for fewer amps at the same voltage, and weight 17 pounds apiece. The Hymaks weigh over a 100# apiece. Meaning that ?the current propulsion system on P6 (4 thrusters, cables, and controllers) all added together weigh less than a single original Hymak thruster. Vance On Monday, July 31, 2023, 05:47:59 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?can you describe a reasonable & cheap oil compensation system?All the commercial units & X navy literature describe an over-pressure system that is not easy to build.I would consider the air used in an air compensation system to be minimal compared with blowing your ballast tanks every dive. Scuba systems seem to have very few failures so, that shouldn't be an issue.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 at 9:36 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 21:27:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 01:27:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2121927795.278612.1690853245102@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, point taken however I?m not convinced oil has been completely discredited yet. ?The issues with air is not solely with cost but also with logistics. ?Potentially carrying extra tanks and/or investing in a compressor if a dive shop is not readily available. ?Our expedition to Lake Tahoe in 2018 was not exactly a remote location however the nearest dive shop for air was over an hour distant from our dive operations. Assuming an oil or 1-atm solution can be found I?d have a hard time arguing against a ?set it and forget it? configuration. ?Let?s not forget also that air has its issues. ?Cliff flooded a motor using air, Carsten mentioned water ingress with air, and plumbing for air has potential for issues as documented by Stanley. I see either method as a clear winner which is why I support development of both. Jon On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 05:49:14 PM EDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?can you describe a reasonable & cheap oil compensation system?All the commercial units & X navy literature describe an over-pressure system that is not easy to build.I would consider the air used in an air compensation system to be minimal compared with blowing your ballast tanks every dive. Scuba systems seem to have very few failures so, that shouldn't be an issue.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 at 9:36 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 22:13:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 02:13:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <2121927795.278612.1690853245102@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> <2121927795.278612.1690853245102@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1967599098.286784.1690856011585@mail.yahoo.com> John,I am happy with both air & oil.?Am intending to fill my thrusters with oil, but have the oil pressurized off my air comp system. This will reduce air use to just whats in the lines.My electric manipulator will be air compensated off the same unit. Putting oil in it adds another layer of complexity.I think I need to put out a long video once I've finished thisair compensator.From what I am hearing from Cliff, he didn't get enough air delivery from the single regulator he was using. However I thought this was the same unit that Alec is using & was now happy with.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 1:29 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 22:15:02 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 02:15:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <834807551.132992.1690852147832@mail.yahoo.com> References: <437225875.7179347.1690727568817.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <437225875.7179347.1690727568817@mail.yahoo.com> <1268330047.7247663.1690744717505@mail.yahoo.com> <1044343654.7429288.1690796009127@mail.yahoo.com> <1936723614.191383.1690840053202@mail.yahoo.com> <834807551.132992.1690852147832@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1789940530.280629.1690856102554@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Vance,I didn't see any attached image.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 1:10 pm, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 22:37:22 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 21:37:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <1967599098.286784.1690856011585@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1967599098.286784.1690856011585@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84699DC8-D141-4D5D-B58A-3BAA8631BF05@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 31 22:46:41 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 02:46:41 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] air compensation In-Reply-To: <84699DC8-D141-4D5D-B58A-3BAA8631BF05@gmail.com> References: <1967599098.286784.1690856011585@mail.yahoo.com> <84699DC8-D141-4D5D-B58A-3BAA8631BF05@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would be inclined to use a Tescom 44-4069 regulator for this purpose. Not sure what these sell for. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 31, 2023, 20:37, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > My original air competition for the R300 used the regulator that Hugh Fulton has on QSub. These are pricey new but you can get them used on eBay. I was operating all four of my Minn kotas 101 off this single regulator. It was a special ss pressure reducing/pressure releasing regulator. I had it installed on my last Florida dive which I went down about 100 ft . Unit worked fine. My first failure was on Flathead lake expedition in which one of my aft thrusters flooded. After that I switched to oil compensation. Alec is using same regular on his articulated arm and not the thrusters. He felt issue with the regulator was that the port for releasing pressure on ascent was too small. I believe he has addressed this by adding a pressure release valve or OP valve. He can elaborate more on his current strategy. > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 31, 2023, at 9:14 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> ?John, >> I am happy with both air & oil. >> Am intending to fill my thrusters with oil, but have the oil pressurized off my air comp system. This will reduce air use to just whats in the lines. >> My electric manipulator will be air compensated off the same unit. Putting oil in it adds another layer of complexity. >> I think I need to put out a long video once I've finished this >> air compensator. >> From what I am hearing from Cliff, he didn't get enough air delivery from the single regulator he was using. However I thought this was the same unit that Alec is using & was now happy with. >> Alan >> >> [Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android](https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) >> >>> On Tue, 1 Aug 2023 at 1:29 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: