[PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question

Fri Dec 22 15:47:18 EST 2023

Seeing that there's at least two San Diegans in this discussion, I hope you
don't mind if I hijack this thread for a second to introduce myself. I'm
Justin, I'm also based in San Diego, and I'm working on a K-350 build with
the help of Scott Waters. In my day job I work on unmanned surface vessels
for ocean science, bathymetry, and marine domain awareness. I've been
lurking in this email group for a long time, and I can't tell you how
incredibly valuable all this information has been! Much thanks and respect
for everyone's expertise here.

James, John (and anyone else around San Diego!) let me know if you ever
want to get together and talk submarines!

On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:05 AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> [image: image]
>
> My email is johnbussard7525 at gmail.com when the time comes!
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 21, 2023, at 10:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi John,
> I may well take you up on your offer in the next month or two when it's
> time to load the lead!  It's only about 8,000 pounds (lol!).
>
> God bless, Jim
>
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 08:22:18 AM PST, John Bussard via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Jim,
>
> I’m in San Diego and would love to help with the launch- I’m free labor
> and not much more in terms of expertise, but my help is offered.
>
> Happy holidays, everyone!
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 20, 2023, at 21:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi Jim,
> Here's the answers:
> 1.  I'm  in Lake Forest, California but the sub is in San Diego (in my
> brother's backyard).  I used to live in San Diego and still have a condo
> there.  The where I plan to launch is going to depend on where I end up
> finding a place to keep it.  Right now I'm making inquiries.  My first
> choice used to be the sub base at Point Loma in San Diego.  I am a retired
> navy chief and I was hoping that fact might help me find a bit of space on
> what is a fairly large base.  The reason I was hoping to keep it there is
> because the Point Loma kelp forest is close by and I would LOVE to explore
> that.  It's such a large kelp forest that it was once commercially
> harvested.  The navy allows the Scripps Institute of Oceanography to keep a
> large ship there so it's not all navy.  Right now I'm thinking that the
> Ocean Institute in Dana Point might be a better choice because it's closer
> to where I currently live.  I spoke with the President of the Board of
> Directors there and he said he would bring the matter up with the director
> (that was just recently and I'm patiently waiting for a reply).
> 2.  I plan on having the boat lifted from a flat bed trailer by a boat
> crane and placed gently in the water.
> 3.  I thought about the boat ramp but I would probably have to wait for a
> very high tide.
> 4.  Salt water.  I've painted the outside with antifouling paint and the
> inside with "topside paint".  Corrosion is something very much on my mind
> so I'm painting everything carefully.  There is an outstanding chance that
> when I've got a place for it to stay (in the water) I'll have a liner
> surrounding it while it's docked.  That will help reduce any marine growth
> that manages to still grow on the antifouling paint.  In addition, I've
> done some thinking about plumbing the exhaust from a generator (used to
> charge the batteries) into the water.  The carbon monoxide will go a long
> way to killing any marine organisms in the water trapped within the liner.
> I'm not really sure I want to do this plumbing part because I'm not sure
> what it will do to the color of the paint, acrylic windows, rubber seals,
> etc.  The windows will likely be covered when it's docked.
> 5.  I'm only looking to go to 80 feet max (the hull is 5/8" thick). That's
> because 90% of all sea life is found in the first 80 feet of water and
> that's what I'm going down to see.  In addition, I don't want to go to a
> depth where I could not easily escape on scuba (there's a 2" flood valve in
> the back incase I've got to get out).
>
> There's *NO QUESTION *that if I had to do it all over again I would have
> made a much smaller sub!  There are very significant advantages to a small
> boat (not the least of which is being able to put one on a small trailer
> and haul it with a reasonably common truck).  Two advantages to a larger
> one (like the money pit I've put so much cash into) is that there's the
> possibility of spending the night on the ocean floor and having enough room
> for a toilet for those long dives.
>
> Merry Christmas and God bless, Jim
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 07:46:52 PM PST, via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hey, Jim,
>
> The size of that beast is quite impressive.  You've received some
> excellent advice
> from the group.  I'm curious about a few other items:
> 1.  Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch?
> 2.  How do you plan to launch?  Trailer, gantry, davit, or ???
> 3.  Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than
> the boat
>      will when it's level.  If launching from a ramp it can be a major
> challenge to
>      get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the
> trailer.
> 4.  Salt water or fresh?  I've noted that interior corrosion can be a
> bigger issue
>      than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly.  You can
> wash
>      the exterior after a dive.
> 5.  What operational depth did you design to?
>
> We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time.
>
> Cheers,
> (the other) Jim T.
>
> In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time,
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:
>
>
>
> No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it!
>
> God bless, Jimhey
>
> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry Jim, it’s only reading Hank’s response that I realized you do not
> have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as
> in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you
> need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted.
>
> Best,
> Alec
>
> On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub.  I always say building bigger is much
> easier as you get older.
> You will need vertical thrusters, for sure.  I find dive planes difficult
> and not much use at slow speeds.  Depending on size of coarse.   If you get
> the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down.  If you
> dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom.  You will then add a
> pinch of air to become ,neutral.  Now you need to lift off the bottom and
> start your travel, that requires thrust.  If you add too much air to get a
> bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface.  It becomes semi
>  controlled bounce.  Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be
> much more enjoyable.  Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in
> reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or
>  front and back.
> Good luck and keep us posted.
> Hank
>
> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com
> via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Understood, and best of luck.
> Vance
>
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dear Vance,
> Thank you (to say the least) for your input!  Much as I would like to go
> without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have
> to now.  But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any
> dive planes or additional thrusters.  The simple truth is that I'm under a
> bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later
> (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).
> Thank you again and Merry Christmas!  Jim
> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Jim,
> As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long
> subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get
> some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or
> control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off
> reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical)
> plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all
> with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those.
> Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces
> boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had
> thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and
> It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case.
> all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim
> system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy
> control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without
> equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the
> competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good
> control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.
> Vance
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you Alec for that reply!  I have a bit more hope now that I can do
> without those dive planes.  I should have also mentioned that I will be
> adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for
> "fine tuning" the trim).
>
> God bless, Jim
>
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the
> water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as
> yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was
> maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and
> carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat.
> Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a
> K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the
> hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things
> around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes.
>
> Best,
> Alec
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43 PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Gang,
> My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.  I based the design
> primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on
> the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to
> a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor
> mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at
> low speeds.  My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep
> the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3
> knots?  The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at
> about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead
> ingots).  Attached is an *old* picture to give you a visual of what it
> looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).  *Any* input would be very
> much appreciated  but I would really like to hear from anyone who has
> operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.  I
> don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get
> this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need
> for dive planes.  Please let me know what you think!
>
> God bless and Merry Christmas to all!  Jim
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