From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 9 13:37:30 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 18:37:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: References: <166803982.6709522.1700790188386@mail.yahoo.com> <1229244823.7632632.1700829409005@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <509360011.2408116.1702147050391@mail.yahoo.com> James,I did two posts on Psubs facebook page about the motor.I pulled it apart for the second post.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 at 2:07 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 9 14:54:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2023 19:54:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor Message-ID: <6e169996-362e-f6c9-305c-311d08ca9f6b@ix.netcom.com> Hi Jamie's, Thanks for doing that and creating a write up of it. I am interested to know how it went. Would it be possible to get a copy of that? Or a summary maybe? The Facebook group is closed to non-facebook members, and I am not going to join Facebook any time soon. Thanks, Ian -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 10:38 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor James,I did two posts on Psubs facebook page about the motor. I pulled it apart for the second post. Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android (https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 at 2:07 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 9 22:06:50 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 03:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <6e169996-362e-f6c9-305c-311d08ca9f6b@ix.netcom.com> References: <6e169996-362e-f6c9-305c-311d08ca9f6b@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1039149180.2506151.1702177610398@mail.yahoo.com> Ian,I tried twice to send pictures but files must be too big for this format. The last time I only attached two photos.The Psubs facebook page has 900+ followers. I have photos & videos on two posts about the thruster.There is another post on an air compensator I built that may be of interest to you.The fb format is a lot easier to put up photos and videos on. Also you can post comments and "like" what someone has posted or said without them going out to everyone & filling up their mail box.But here is a portion of the failed mail.....?Brushless 2200W rated to 48V but could run off 36V.I bought the bottom unit only as was half the price.Motor only weighed 15lbs (7kg).A lot of empty space inside the can. Probably take a litreof oil to compensate it. But lots of area to put in fill & drain holes. It has a skeg on the bottom which I will cut off (should I use it). The motor portion of the cut off skeg would be a good place to put a drain hole in. It has two lip seals and a dust seal. Two decent sized bearings.?The o-ring groove & mating face were done well.?The hole that the wire came out through was sharp on the edge; they could have rounded that to stop it wearing on the wiring jacket.It is a sensor-less motor, so no position feed back from sensors, but then the sensors are usually the first thing to fail.?In my view it would be a much better option for oil compensation than a brushed motor like the Minn Kotta, where the oil can lift the brushes or be contaminated by wearing brushes. One post recently seemed to indicate that the compensating oil was degrading the brushes.At the front end there are holes that have been filled in with something. There may be thread in the holes to bolt on an anode. If not, they could be drilled out to put in an anode.?The propeller is about 4&1/2 to 5" pitch ( cant remember the diameter & am out). Designed for pushing a boat up to 20ft. The motor is quite a large diameter to get more torque & is geared down, with the low pitched propeller, ideal for pushing a sub.There may be a better motor out there that doesnt require such a huge volume of oil or air to compensate it.?If you are looking for a brushless option, some of the motors have electronics inside them, including large capacitors that will crush under pressure.?Cheers Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 8:55 am, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jamie's, ? Thanks for doing that and creating a write up of it.? I am interested to know how it went. Would it be possible to get a copy of that?? Or a summary maybe? ? The Facebook group is closed to non-facebook members, and I am not going to join Facebook any time soon. ? Thanks, Ian? ? -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 10:38 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor ? James,I did two posts on Psubs facebook page about the motor.I pulled it apart for the second post.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 at 2:07 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 9 23:00:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 04:00:25 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor Message-ID: Hi Allen, Thanks for sharing that write up, I really appreciate it. I do have hopes for brushless motors and oil compensation. At some point I'll pick up a cheap unit and play around with. hopefully we can figure which ones are not putting electronics in the motor bodies. I was present when Cliff emptied the black sludge out and immediately thought I should start thinking about brushless motors, even if they aren't as suited for low rpm applications like ours. Also apologies for calling James (and not even Spelling that correctly!). Power is out here and I Am poor at typing on the phone. Sorry about the extra work. My avoidance of Facebook is for personal ethical reasons. Thanks! Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 7:07 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor Ian,I tried twice to send pictures but files must be too big for this format. The last time I only attached two photos. The Psubs facebook page has 900+ followers. I have photos & videos on two posts about the thruster. There is another post on an air compensator I built that may be of interest to you. The fb format is a lot easier to put up photos and videos on. Also you can post comments and "like" what someone has posted or said without them going out to everyone & filling up their mail box. But here is a portion of the failed mail..... Brushless 2200W rated to 48V but could run off 36V. I bought the bottom unit only as was half the price. Motor only weighed 15lbs (7kg). A lot of empty space inside the can. Probably take a litre of oil to compensate it. But lots of area to put in fill & drain holes. It has a skeg on the bottom which I will cut off (should I use it). The motor portion of the cut off skeg would be a good place to put a drain hole in. It has two lip seals and a dust seal. Two decent sized bearings. The o-ring groove & mating face were done well. The hole that the wire came out through was sharp on the edge; they could have rounded that to stop it wearing on the wiring jacket. It is a sensor-less motor, so no position feed back from sensors, but then the sensors are usually the first thing to fail. In my view it would be a much better option for oil compensation than a brushed motor like the Minn Kotta, where the oil can lift the brushes or be contaminated by wearing brushes. One post recently seemed to indicate that the compensating oil was degrading the brushes. At the front end there are holes that have been filled in with something. There may be thread in the holes to bolt on an anode. If not, they could be drilled out to put in an anode. The propeller is about 4&1/2 to 5" pitch ( cant remember the diameter & am out). Designed for pushing a boat up to 20ft. The motor is quite a large diameter to get more torque & is geared down, with the low pitched propeller, ideal for pushing a sub. There may be a better motor out there that doesnt require such a huge volume of oil or air to compensate it. If you are looking for a brushless option, some of the motors have electronics inside them, including large capacitors that will crush under pressure. Cheers Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android (https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 8:55 am, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jamie's, Thanks for doing that and creating a write up of it. I am interested to know how it went. Would it be possible to get a copy of that? Or a summary maybe? The Facebook group is closed to non-facebook members, and I am not going to join Facebook any time soon. Thanks, Ian -----Original Message-----From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 10:38 AMTo: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor James,I did two posts on Psubs facebook page about the motor. I pulled it apart for the second post. AlanSent from Yahoo Mail on Android (https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 at 2:07 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 9 23:25:17 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 04:25:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1066004029.2510057.1702182317869@mail.yahoo.com> Ian,Cliff seemed interested in this option & I'm getting some more measurements for him that he requested.We both looked at another option but it had electronics inside the housing. Cliff could keep you in the loop. He and Alex were looking at a minn kotta modification but sounds like he's open to pursuing a brushless motor.?Another good point to them is that the windings are on the outside up against the can, so they can be cooled effectively.If you (or someone) can think of a better way I can get videos to you let me know.Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 5:02 pm, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 11 08:04:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 13:04:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> Ian, you aren't the only one with a propensity to avert social media which is why we keep the email list going.? Although I have an account on FB I do not visit it often and would prefer that it (and Zuckerburg) disappeared. But back to submarines...Alan, what is the performance affect of reducing the voltage from 48 to 36?? I suspect you lose rpm but wonder if that translates to torque and thrust as well.? Is there anyway to calculate those losses? Jon On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 11:02:08 PM EST, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Allen, ? Thanks for sharing that write up, I really appreciate it. I do have hopes for brushless motors and oil compensation.? At some point I'll pick up a cheap unit and play around with. hopefully we can figure which ones are not putting electronics in the motor bodies. ? I was present when Cliff emptied the black sludge out and immediately thought I should start thinking about brushless motors, even if they aren't as suited for low rpm applications like ours. ? Also apologies for calling James (and not even Spelling that correctly!). Power is out here and I Am poor at typing on the phone. ? Sorry about the extra work. My avoidance of Facebook is for personal ethical reasons. ? Thanks! ? ?Ian. ? ? -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 7:07 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor ? Ian,I tried twice to send pictures but files must be too big for this format. The last time I only attached two photos.The Psubs facebook page has 900+ followers. I have photos & videos on two posts about the thruster.There is another post on an air compensator I built that may be of interest to you.The fb format is a lot easier to put up photos and videos on. Also you can post comments and "like" what someone has posted or said without them going out to everyone & filling up their mail box.But here is a portion of the failed mail.....?Brushless 2200W rated to 48V but could run off 36V.I bought the bottom unit only as was half the price.Motor only weighed 15lbs (7kg).A lot of empty space inside the can. Probably take a litreof oil to compensate it. But lots of area to put in fill & drain holes. It has a skeg on the bottom which I will cut off (should I use it). The motor portion of the cut off skeg would be a good place to put a drain hole in. It has two lip seals and a dust seal. Two decent sized bearings.?The o-ring groove & mating face were done well.?The hole that the wire came out through was sharp on the edge; they could have rounded that to stop it wearing on the wiring jacket.It is a sensor-less motor, so no position feed back from sensors, but then the sensors are usually the first thing to fail.?In my view it would be a much better option for oil compensation than a brushed motor like the Minn Kotta, where the oil can lift the brushes or be contaminated by wearing brushes. One post recently seemed to indicate that the compensating oil was degrading the brushes.At the front end there are holes that have been filled in with something. There may be thread in the holes to bolt on an anode. If not, they could be drilled out to put in an anode.?The propeller is about 4&1/2 to 5" pitch ( cant remember the diameter & am out). Designed for pushing a boat up to 20ft. The motor is quite a large diameter to get more torque & is geared down, with the low pitched propeller, ideal for pushing a sub.There may be a better motor out there that doesnt require such a huge volume of oil or air to compensate it.?If you are looking for a brushless option, some of the motors have electronics inside them, including large capacitors that will crush under pressure.?Cheers Alan?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 at 8:55 am, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jamie's, ? Thanks for doing that and creating a write up of it.? I am interested to know how it went. Would it be possible to get a copy of that?? Or a summary maybe? ? The Facebook group is closed to non-facebook members, and I am not going to join Facebook any time soon. ? Thanks, Ian? ? -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Dec 9, 2023 10:38 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor ? James,I did two posts on Psubs facebook page about the motor.I pulled it apart for the second post.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 at 2:07 am, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 11 13:14:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 18:14:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I presume you can have a fb account with no friends, no avatar or personal information & no access to your fb page by anyone, and just follow psubs.?If you ran the motor at 36V, you would be running it at 3/4 of its power. But given that you have to quadruple your power to double your speed under water, the drop in speed wont be so much.They could quite possibly wind the motor for 36V. I know other manufacturers offer alternative winding options.?When I made my thruster, the manufacturer wound the motor to my specs, so I had more torque but less speed.They also brought the wires out the back of the motor can, rather than the top, used longer wires & a stainless 316 shaft with circlip grooves of my design & added a sensor board.The potential of is there for a good Psubs brushless thruster, built to our specs.Alan?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 at 2:07 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 12 01:26:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (nicolas leboucher via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 07:26:00 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> References: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f45385a-1824-4b25-823e-75cabbe8fa8e@orange.fr> On 11/12/2023 19:14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > I presume you can have a fb account with no friends, no avatar or > personal information & no access to your fb page by anyone, and just > follow psubs. > If you ran the motor at 36V, you would be running it at 3/4 of its > power. But given that you have to quadruple your power to double your > speed under water, the drop in speed wont be so much. > They could quite possibly wind the motor for 36V. I know other > manufacturers offer alternative winding options. > When I made my thruster, the manufacturer wound the motor to my specs, > so I had more torque but less speed. > They also brought the wires out the back of the motor can, rather than > the top, used longer wires & a stainless 316 shaft with circlip > grooves of my design & added a sensor board. > The potential of is there for a good Psubs brushless thruster, built > to our specs. > Alan > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 at 2:07 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 12 01:31:08 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (nicolas leboucher via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 07:31:08 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> References: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3045e3cf-4c36-4721-9eb4-20dec7c1ca9c@orange.fr> I m sorry to interfere with this post but i just want to ask alan smith if there is a way to contact him about is ambient sub project. I ve tried to send you an email with your adress left on the psubs discussion archives ( xtra.co.nz) but it doesn t work. i m a french subs enthusiast and i m collecting information to build my own ambient submarine. On psubs, i ve seen your ambient project, which is for me a great source of inspiration with its small size. I wonder if it is still alive and used and if there a way to have more pictures about this project ? Thanks On 11/12/2023 19:14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Jon, > I presume you can have a fb account with no friends, no avatar or > personal information & no access to your fb page by anyone, and just > follow psubs. > If you ran the motor at 36V, you would be running it at 3/4 of its > power. But given that you have to quadruple your power to double your > speed under water, the drop in speed wont be so much. > They could quite possibly wind the motor for 36V. I know other > manufacturers offer alternative winding options. > When I made my thruster, the manufacturer wound the motor to my specs, > so I had more torque but less speed. > They also brought the wires out the back of the motor can, rather than > the top, used longer wires & a stainless 316 shaft with circlip > grooves of my design & added a sensor board. > The potential of is there for a good Psubs brushless thruster, built > to our specs. > Alan > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 at 2:07 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 12 02:25:58 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 07:25:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <3045e3cf-4c36-4721-9eb4-20dec7c1ca9c@orange.fr> References: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> <3045e3cf-4c36-4721-9eb4-20dec7c1ca9c@orange.fr> Message-ID: <1125420849.228621.1702365958862@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Nicolas,that must be me, Alan James. There is an Alec Smyth,but he didn't make an ambient.The ambient isn't operational at the moment, but sitting in the back yard.The best way for me to get a lot of photos to you is through facebook messenger. If you go on to fb & search on the link below you should be able to message me.https://www.facebook.com/alan.james.75286?mibextid=ZbWKwLHappy to help you through this project.Alan. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 at 7:32 pm, nicolas leboucher via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 12 02:37:01 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (nicolas leboucher via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 08:37:01 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure proof motor In-Reply-To: <1125420849.228621.1702365958862@mail.yahoo.com> References: <375444800.2842574.1702299863999@mail.yahoo.com> <906225571.3014727.1702318476424@mail.yahoo.com> <3045e3cf-4c36-4721-9eb4-20dec7c1ca9c@orange.fr> <1125420849.228621.1702365958862@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4a03784a-ee90-41b3-95c3-d9470877ca76@orange.fr> hello alan *James* (my mistake) and thanks a lot for your response. Yes it s your project that inspires me and thanks for your response. I m gonna check for your fb adress. Thanks On 12/12/2023 08:25, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Nicolas, > that must be me, Alan James. There is an Alec Smyth, > but he didn't make an ambient. > The ambient isn't operational at the moment, but sitting in the back yard. > The best way for me to get a lot of photos to you is through facebook > messenger. If you go on to fb & search on the link below you should be > able to message me. > https://www.facebook.com/alan.james.75286?mibextid=ZbWKwL > Happy to help you through this project. > Alan. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 at 7:32 pm, nicolas leboucher via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 14:40:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 19:40:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: subpic1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1903454 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 15:03:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:03:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best, Alec On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello Gang, > My sub is nearing completion after many years of work. I based the design > primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on > the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to > a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor > mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at > low speeds. My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep > the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 > knots? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at > about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead > ingots). Attached is an *old* picture to give you a visual of what it > looks like (I'll post some new ones soon). *Any* input would be very > much appreciated but I would really like to hear from anyone who has > operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged. I > don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get > this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need > for dive planes. Please let me know what you think! > > God bless and Merry Christmas to all! Jim > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 17:36:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 22:36:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 19:52:16 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 16:52:16 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROVs and experimentation Message-ID: Hi all, I have been still trying to start finding a workable approach to the ?slight challenges? of 1) Lack of workspace 2) Lack of expendable chunks of time 3) Lack of $$$ 4) Lack of technical background to support design and fabrication And I believe I have a good approach in the offing- I plan to start experimenting with fabrication methods and electronics with an ROV, with an eye to modifications throughout to continue refining skills needed. Anyone done something similar? I?m loving seeing posts, hoping that in ensuing years I?ll have enough of the above requisites under the belt to start a larger build! John Bussard San Diego Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 20:27:18 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (vbra676539@aol.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 01:27:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 21:01:22 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean Lange via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:01:22 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROVs and experimentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, I?m in similar circumstances, but as far as getting a workspace and technical fabrication experience, I?d personally sing the praises of welding and manual or cnc machining courses at a local community or technical college. I?ve personally found it?s the most economical way to learn how to fabricate and to get access to machines to fabricate parts for my own ROV project. I look forward to seeing your build! -Sean Lange > On Dec 18, 2023, at 4:53 PM, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Hi all, > > I have been still trying to start finding a workable approach to the ?slight challenges? of > 1) Lack of workspace > 2) Lack of expendable chunks of time > 3) Lack of $$$ > 4) Lack of technical background to support design and fabrication > > And I believe I have a good approach in the offing- I plan to start experimenting with fabrication methods and electronics with an ROV, with an eye to modifications throughout to continue refining skills needed. Anyone done something similar? > > I?m loving seeing posts, hoping that in ensuing years I?ll have enough of the above requisites under the belt to start a larger build! > > John Bussard > San Diego > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 18 22:03:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 19:03:35 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ROVs and experimentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EB38C7B-7FE3-4A14-9742-8A2565DF46DB@gmail.com> Sean, Yup, I was looking at such places, from what I?ve seen here in Southern California there are few programs available and they are somewhat full due to being dedicated for vocational training purposes. There?s a local ?maker space? with a lot of the same tooling, but it costs much more. I?m honestly thinking more about fiberglass, knowing that my initial building is going to focus simply on process, so pressure not a huge concern? Regardless I?m eager to build SOMETHING and will certainly share! John Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 18, 2023, at 18:02, Sean Lange via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Hi John, > I?m in similar circumstances, but as far as getting a workspace and technical fabrication experience, I?d personally sing the praises of welding and manual or cnc machining courses at a local community or technical college. I?ve personally found it?s the most economical way to learn how to fabricate and to get access to machines to fabricate parts for my own ROV project. I look forward to seeing your build! > > -Sean Lange > >> On Dec 18, 2023, at 4:53 PM, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?Hi all, >> >> I have been still trying to start finding a workable approach to the ?slight challenges? of >> 1) Lack of workspace >> 2) Lack of expendable chunks of time >> 3) Lack of $$$ >> 4) Lack of technical background to support design and fabrication >> >> And I believe I have a good approach in the offing- I plan to start experimenting with fabrication methods and electronics with an ROV, with an eye to modifications throughout to continue refining skills needed. Anyone done something similar? >> >> I?m loving seeing posts, hoping that in ensuing years I?ll have enough of the above requisites under the belt to start a larger build! >> >> John Bussard >> San Diego >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 19 22:54:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 03:54:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <603592836.2006445.1703044450232@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 06:49:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (vbra676539@aol.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:49:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <603592836.2006445.1703044450232@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> <603592836.2006445.1703044450232@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1325611139.2050528.1703072940519@mail.yahoo.com> Understood, and best of luck.?Vance On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 12:41:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 17:41:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1325611139.2050528.1703072940519@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> <603592836.2006445.1703044450232@mail.yahoo.com> <1325611139.2050528.1703072940519@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Understood, and best of luck.?Vance On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 16:23:30 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 16:23:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 18:38:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 23:38:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> References: <326191198.1648472.1702928448714.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <326191198.1648472.1702928448714@mail.yahoo.com> <1894447566.1693688.1702939006297@mail.yahoo.com> <1087039676.1716015.1702949238337@mail.yahoo.com> <603592836.2006445.1703044450232@mail.yahoo.com> <1325611139.2050528.1703072940519@mail.yahoo.com> <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <406870774.2226452.1703115495971@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Hank,Again, hearing what you might call "words of wisdom" from someone who knows about such things is one of the greatest things about being a part of this group and being able to ask questions!? Thank you VERY much!? It gives me even more to think about!Merry Christmas, Jim On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 09:43:29 AM PST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Understood, and best of luck.?Vance On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 18:39:09 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 23:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: References: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1377290383.2223538.1703115549121@mail.yahoo.com> No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it! God bless, Jim On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted. Best,Alec On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Understood, and best of luck.?Vance On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim). God bless, Jim On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jim, That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think! God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 20 22:44:37 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 03:44:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <1377290383.2223538.1703115549121@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> <1377290383.2223538.1703115549121@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <483749676.2264299.1703130277727@mail.yahoo.com> Hey, Jim, ?The size of that beast is quite impressive.? You've received some excellent advice from the group.? I'm curious about a few other items:1.? Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch?2.? How do you plan to launch?? Trailer, gantry, davit, or ???3.? Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than the boat? ? ?will when it's level.? If launching from a ramp it can be a major challenge to? ? ?get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the trailer.4.? Salt water or fresh?? I've noted that interior corrosion can be a bigger issue? ? ?than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly.? You can wash? ? ?the exterior after a dive.5.? What operational depth did you design to??We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time.?Cheers,(the other) Jim T. In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? ?No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it!?God bless, Jimhey?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted.?Best,Alec On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Understood, and best of luck.?Vance?On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:????Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? JimOn Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance?On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim).?God bless, Jim??On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Hi Jim, ?That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes.?Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think!?God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 21 00:58:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 05:58:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <483749676.2264299.1703130277727@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1962940362.3666491.1703094095373@mail.yahoo.com> <1377290383.2223538.1703115549121@mail.yahoo.com> <483749676.2264299.1703130277727@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505853130.2276246.1703138285936@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jim,Here's the answers:1.? I'm? in Lake Forest, California but the sub is in San Diego (in my brother's backyard).? I used to live in San Diego and still have a condo there.? The where I plan to launch is going to depend on where I end up finding a place to keep it.? Right now I'm making inquiries.? My first choice used to be the sub base at Point Loma in San Diego.? I am a retired navy chief and I was hoping that fact might help me find a bit of space on what is a fairly large base.? The reason I was hoping to keep it there is because the Point Loma kelp forest is close by and I would LOVE to explore that.? It's such a large kelp forest that it was once commercially harvested.? The navy allows the Scripps Institute of Oceanography to keep a large ship there so it's not all navy.? Right now I'm thinking that the Ocean Institute in Dana Point might be a better choice because it's closer to where I currently live.? I spoke with the President of the Board of Directors there and he said he would bring the matter up with the director (that was just recently and I'm patiently waiting for a reply).2.? I plan on having the boat lifted from a flat bed trailer by a boat crane and placed gently in the water.3.? I thought about the boat ramp but I would probably have to wait for a very high tide.4.? Salt water.? I've painted the outside with antifouling paint and the inside with "topside paint".? Corrosion is something very much on my mind so I'm painting everything carefully.? There is an outstanding chance that when I've got a place for it to stay (in the water) I'll have a liner surrounding it while it's docked.? That will help reduce any marine growth that manages to still grow on the antifouling paint.? In addition, I've done some thinking about plumbing the exhaust from a generator (used to charge the batteries) into the water.? The carbon monoxide will go a long way to killing any marine organisms in the water trapped within the liner.? I'm not really sure I want to do this plumbing part because I'm not sure what it will do to the color of the paint, acrylic windows, rubber seals, etc.? The windows will likely be covered when it's docked.5.? I'm only looking to go to 80 feet max (the hull is 5/8" thick). That's because 90% of all sea life is found in the first 80 feet of water and that's what I'm going down to see.? In addition, I don't want to go to a depth where I could not easily escape on scuba (there's a 2" flood valve in the back incase I've got to get out).?? There's NO QUESTION that if I had to do it all over again I would have made a much smaller sub!? There are very significant advantages to a small boat (not the least of which is being able to put one on a small trailer and haul it with a reasonably common truck).? Two advantages to a larger one (like the money pit I've put so much cash into) is that there's the possibility of spending the night on the ocean floor and having enough room for a toilet for those long dives.?? Merry Christmas and God bless, Jim On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 07:46:52 PM PST, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey, Jim, ?The size of that beast is quite impressive.? You've received some excellent advice from the group.? I'm curious about a few other items:1.? Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch?2.? How do you plan to launch?? Trailer, gantry, davit, or ???3.? Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than the boat? ? ?will when it's level.? If launching from a ramp it can be a major challenge to? ? ?get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the trailer.4.? Salt water or fresh?? I've noted that interior corrosion can be a bigger issue? ? ?than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly.? You can wash? ? ?the exterior after a dive.5.? What operational depth did you design to??We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time.?Cheers,(the other) Jim T. In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? ?No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it!?God bless, Jimhey?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted.?Best,Alec On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Understood, and best of luck.?Vance?On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:????Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? JimOn Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance?On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim).?God bless, Jim??On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Hi Jim, ?That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes.?Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think!?God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 21 11:18:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 08:18:57 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <505853130.2276246.1703138285936@mail.yahoo.com> References: <505853130.2276246.1703138285936@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33166CFE-C30F-4B4C-80A4-C4C878C1A8BE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 21 13:58:24 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (james hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 18:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <33166CFE-C30F-4B4C-80A4-C4C878C1A8BE@gmail.com> References: <505853130.2276246.1703138285936@mail.yahoo.com> <33166CFE-C30F-4B4C-80A4-C4C878C1A8BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <854630458.2401015.1703185104126@mail.yahoo.com> Hi John,I may well take you up on your offer in the next month or two when it's time to load the lead!? It's only about 8,000 pounds (lol!). God bless, Jim On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 08:22:18 AM PST, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim, I?m in San Diego and would love to help with the launch- I?m free labor and not much more in terms of expertise, but my help is offered. Happy holidays, everyone! John Sent from my iPhone On Dec 20, 2023, at 21:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Jim,Here's the answers:1.? I'm? in Lake Forest, California but the sub is in San Diego (in my brother's backyard).? I used to live in San Diego and still have a condo there.? The where I plan to launch is going to depend on where I end up finding a place to keep it.? Right now I'm making inquiries.? My first choice used to be the sub base at Point Loma in San Diego.? I am a retired navy chief and I was hoping that fact might help me find a bit of space on what is a fairly large base.? The reason I was hoping to keep it there is because the Point Loma kelp forest is close by and I would LOVE to explore that.? It's such a large kelp forest that it was once commercially harvested.? The navy allows the Scripps Institute of Oceanography to keep a large ship there so it's not all navy.? Right now I'm thinking that the Ocean Institute in Dana Point might be a better choice because it's closer to where I currently live.? I spoke with the President of the Board of Directors there and he said he would bring the matter up with the director (that was just recently and I'm patiently waiting for a reply).2.? I plan on having the boat lifted from a flat bed trailer by a boat crane and placed gently in the water.3.? I thought about the boat ramp but I would probably have to wait for a very high tide.4.? Salt water.? I've painted the outside with antifouling paint and the inside with "topside paint".? Corrosion is something very much on my mind so I'm painting everything carefully.? There is an outstanding chance that when I've got a place for it to stay (in the water) I'll have a liner surrounding it while it's docked.? That will help reduce any marine growth that manages to still grow on the antifouling paint.? In addition, I've done some thinking about plumbing the exhaust from a generator (used to charge the batteries) into the water.? The carbon monoxide will go a long way to killing any marine organisms in the water trapped within the liner.? I'm not really sure I want to do this plumbing part because I'm not sure what it will do to the color of the paint, acrylic windows, rubber seals, etc.? The windows will likely be covered when it's docked.5.? I'm only looking to go to 80 feet max (the hull is 5/8" thick). That's because 90% of all sea life is found in the first 80 feet of water and that's what I'm going down to see.? In addition, I don't want to go to a depth where I could not easily escape on scuba (there's a 2" flood valve in the back incase I've got to get out).?? There's NO QUESTION that if I had to do it all over again I would have made a much smaller sub!? There are very significant advantages to a small boat (not the least of which is being able to put one on a small trailer and haul it with a reasonably common truck).? Two advantages to a larger one (like the money pit I've put so much cash into) is that there's the possibility of spending the night on the ocean floor and having enough room for a toilet for those long dives.?? Merry Christmas and God bless, Jim On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 07:46:52 PM PST, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey, Jim, ?The size of that beast is quite impressive.? You've received some excellent advice from the group.? I'm curious about a few other items:1.? Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch?2.? How do you plan to launch?? Trailer, gantry, davit, or ???3.? Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than the boat? ? ?will when it's level.? If launching from a ramp it can be a major challenge to? ? ?get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the trailer.4.? Salt water or fresh?? I've noted that interior corrosion can be a bigger issue? ? ?than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly.? You can wash? ? ?the exterior after a dive.5.? What operational depth did you design to??We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time.?Cheers,(the other) Jim T. In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes:? ?No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it!?God bless, Jimhey?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted.?Best,Alec On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. ?I always say building bigger is much easier as you get older.You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. ?I find dive planes difficult and not much use at slow speeds. ?Depending on size of coarse. ? If you get the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. ?If you dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. ?You will then add a pinch of air to become ,neutral. ?Now you need to lift off the bottom and start your travel, that requires thrust. ?If you add too much air to get a bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. ?It becomes semi ?controlled bounce. ?Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be much more enjoyable. ?Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or ?front and back.Good luck and keep us posted.Hank?On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Understood, and best of luck.?Vance?On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:????Dear Vance,Thank you (to say the least) for your input!? Much as I would like to go without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have to now.? But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any dive planes or additional thrusters.? The simple truth is that I'm under a bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP).??Thank you again and Merry Christmas!? JimOn Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Jim,As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places.Vance?On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote:???Thank you Alec for that reply!? I have a bit more hope now that I can do without those dive planes.? I should have also mentioned that I will be adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for "fine tuning" the trim).?God bless, Jim??On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??Hi Jim, ?That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes.?Best,Alec? On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Gang,My sub is nearing completion after many years of work.? I based the design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at low speeds.? My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 knots?? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead ingots).? Attached is an old picture to give you a visual of what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon).? Any input would be very much appreciated? but I would really like to hear from anyone who has operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged.? I don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need for dive planes.? Please let me know what you think!?God bless and Merry Christmas to all!? Jim_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 21 14:04:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 11:04:00 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <854630458.2401015.1703185104126@mail.yahoo.com> References: <854630458.2401015.1703185104126@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8DDBDF81-ABF0-4C6F-B682-EDE9668BD8BC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 208729 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 22 15:47:18 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Justin Helland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 12:47:18 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: <8DDBDF81-ABF0-4C6F-B682-EDE9668BD8BC@gmail.com> References: <854630458.2401015.1703185104126@mail.yahoo.com> <8DDBDF81-ABF0-4C6F-B682-EDE9668BD8BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seeing that there's at least two San Diegans in this discussion, I hope you don't mind if I hijack this thread for a second to introduce myself. I'm Justin, I'm also based in San Diego, and I'm working on a K-350 build with the help of Scott Waters. In my day job I work on unmanned surface vessels for ocean science, bathymetry, and marine domain awareness. I've been lurking in this email group for a long time, and I can't tell you how incredibly valuable all this information has been! Much thanks and respect for everyone's expertise here. James, John (and anyone else around San Diego!) let me know if you ever want to get together and talk submarines! On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:05?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > [image: image] > > My email is johnbussard7525 at gmail.com when the time comes! > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 21, 2023, at 10:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi John, > I may well take you up on your offer in the next month or two when it's > time to load the lead! It's only about 8,000 pounds (lol!). > > God bless, Jim > > On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 08:22:18 AM PST, John Bussard via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jim, > > I?m in San Diego and would love to help with the launch- I?m free labor > and not much more in terms of expertise, but my help is offered. > > Happy holidays, everyone! > > John > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 20, 2023, at 21:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Jim, > Here's the answers: > 1. I'm in Lake Forest, California but the sub is in San Diego (in my > brother's backyard). I used to live in San Diego and still have a condo > there. The where I plan to launch is going to depend on where I end up > finding a place to keep it. Right now I'm making inquiries. My first > choice used to be the sub base at Point Loma in San Diego. I am a retired > navy chief and I was hoping that fact might help me find a bit of space on > what is a fairly large base. The reason I was hoping to keep it there is > because the Point Loma kelp forest is close by and I would LOVE to explore > that. It's such a large kelp forest that it was once commercially > harvested. The navy allows the Scripps Institute of Oceanography to keep a > large ship there so it's not all navy. Right now I'm thinking that the > Ocean Institute in Dana Point might be a better choice because it's closer > to where I currently live. I spoke with the President of the Board of > Directors there and he said he would bring the matter up with the director > (that was just recently and I'm patiently waiting for a reply). > 2. I plan on having the boat lifted from a flat bed trailer by a boat > crane and placed gently in the water. > 3. I thought about the boat ramp but I would probably have to wait for a > very high tide. > 4. Salt water. I've painted the outside with antifouling paint and the > inside with "topside paint". Corrosion is something very much on my mind > so I'm painting everything carefully. There is an outstanding chance that > when I've got a place for it to stay (in the water) I'll have a liner > surrounding it while it's docked. That will help reduce any marine growth > that manages to still grow on the antifouling paint. In addition, I've > done some thinking about plumbing the exhaust from a generator (used to > charge the batteries) into the water. The carbon monoxide will go a long > way to killing any marine organisms in the water trapped within the liner. > I'm not really sure I want to do this plumbing part because I'm not sure > what it will do to the color of the paint, acrylic windows, rubber seals, > etc. The windows will likely be covered when it's docked. > 5. I'm only looking to go to 80 feet max (the hull is 5/8" thick). That's > because 90% of all sea life is found in the first 80 feet of water and > that's what I'm going down to see. In addition, I don't want to go to a > depth where I could not easily escape on scuba (there's a 2" flood valve in > the back incase I've got to get out). > > There's *NO QUESTION *that if I had to do it all over again I would have > made a much smaller sub! There are very significant advantages to a small > boat (not the least of which is being able to put one on a small trailer > and haul it with a reasonably common truck). Two advantages to a larger > one (like the money pit I've put so much cash into) is that there's the > possibility of spending the night on the ocean floor and having enough room > for a toilet for those long dives. > > Merry Christmas and God bless, Jim > > > On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 07:46:52 PM PST, via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hey, Jim, > > The size of that beast is quite impressive. You've received some > excellent advice > from the group. I'm curious about a few other items: > 1. Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch? > 2. How do you plan to launch? Trailer, gantry, davit, or ??? > 3. Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than > the boat > will when it's level. If launching from a ramp it can be a major > challenge to > get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the > trailer. > 4. Salt water or fresh? I've noted that interior corrosion can be a > bigger issue > than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly. You can > wash > the exterior after a dive. > 5. What operational depth did you design to? > > We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time. > > Cheers, > (the other) Jim T. > > In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, > personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: > > > > No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it! > > God bless, Jimhey > > On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not > have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as > in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you > need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted. > > Best, > Alec > > On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. I always say building bigger is much > easier as you get older. > You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. I find dive planes difficult > and not much use at slow speeds. Depending on size of coarse. If you get > the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. If you > dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. You will then add a > pinch of air to become ,neutral. Now you need to lift off the bottom and > start your travel, that requires thrust. If you add too much air to get a > bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. It becomes semi > controlled bounce. Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be > much more enjoyable. Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in > reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or > front and back. > Good luck and keep us posted. > Hank > > On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Understood, and best of luck. > Vance > > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > Dear Vance, > Thank you (to say the least) for your input! Much as I would like to go > without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have > to now. But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any > dive planes or additional thrusters. The simple truth is that I'm under a > bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later > (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP). > Thank you again and Merry Christmas! Jim > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Jim, > As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long > subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get > some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or > control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off > reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) > plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all > with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. > Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces > boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had > thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and > It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. > all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim > system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy > control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without > equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the > competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good > control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places. > Vance > > On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Thank you Alec for that reply! I have a bit more hope now that I can do > without those dive planes. I should have also mentioned that I will be > adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for > "fine tuning" the trim). > > God bless, Jim > > > On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > > That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the > water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as > yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was > maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and > carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. > Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a > K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the > hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things > around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hello Gang, > My sub is nearing completion after many years of work. I based the design > primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having thrusters on > the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast tank (linked to > a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust trolling motor > mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port or starboard at > low speeds. My question is: Do I need to add dive planes in order to keep > the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at about 2 to 3 > knots? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will weigh in at > about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled with lead > ingots). Attached is an *old* picture to give you a visual of what it > looks like (I'll post some new ones soon). *Any* input would be very > much appreciated but I would really like to hear from anyone who has > operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged. I > don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get > this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need > for dive planes. Please let me know what you think! > > God bless and Merry Christmas to all! Jim > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 208729 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 22 17:52:07 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:52:07 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 23 12:56:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Justin Helland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:56:54 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrodynamic question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will do, John! And James, I'm also happy to be free labor if you need help moving all that lead, just let me know! On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 2:53?PM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Feel free to email me at my gmail above, Justin, would love to get > together! > > John > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 22, 2023, at 12:48, Justin Helland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Seeing that there's at least two San Diegans in this discussion, I hope > you don't mind if I hijack this thread for a second to introduce myself. > I'm Justin, I'm also based in San Diego, and I'm working on a K-350 build > with the help of Scott Waters. In my day job I work on unmanned surface > vessels for ocean science, bathymetry, and marine domain awareness. I've > been lurking in this email group for a long time, and I can't tell you how > incredibly valuable all this information has been! Much thanks and respect > for everyone's expertise here. > > James, John (and anyone else around San Diego!) let me know if you ever > want to get together and talk submarines! > > On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 11:05?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> >> My email is johnbussard7525 at gmail.com when the time comes! >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 21, 2023, at 10:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Hi John, >> I may well take you up on your offer in the next month or two when it's >> time to load the lead! It's only about 8,000 pounds (lol!). >> >> God bless, Jim >> >> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 08:22:18 AM PST, John Bussard via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jim, >> >> I?m in San Diego and would love to help with the launch- I?m free labor >> and not much more in terms of expertise, but my help is offered. >> >> Happy holidays, everyone! >> >> John >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 20, 2023, at 21:59, james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Hi Jim, >> Here's the answers: >> 1. I'm in Lake Forest, California but the sub is in San Diego (in my >> brother's backyard). I used to live in San Diego and still have a condo >> there. The where I plan to launch is going to depend on where I end up >> finding a place to keep it. Right now I'm making inquiries. My first >> choice used to be the sub base at Point Loma in San Diego. I am a retired >> navy chief and I was hoping that fact might help me find a bit of space on >> what is a fairly large base. The reason I was hoping to keep it there is >> because the Point Loma kelp forest is close by and I would LOVE to explore >> that. It's such a large kelp forest that it was once commercially >> harvested. The navy allows the Scripps Institute of Oceanography to keep a >> large ship there so it's not all navy. Right now I'm thinking that the >> Ocean Institute in Dana Point might be a better choice because it's closer >> to where I currently live. I spoke with the President of the Board of >> Directors there and he said he would bring the matter up with the director >> (that was just recently and I'm patiently waiting for a reply). >> 2. I plan on having the boat lifted from a flat bed trailer by a boat >> crane and placed gently in the water. >> 3. I thought about the boat ramp but I would probably have to wait for a >> very high tide. >> 4. Salt water. I've painted the outside with antifouling paint and the >> inside with "topside paint". Corrosion is something very much on my mind >> so I'm painting everything carefully. There is an outstanding chance that >> when I've got a place for it to stay (in the water) I'll have a liner >> surrounding it while it's docked. That will help reduce any marine growth >> that manages to still grow on the antifouling paint. In addition, I've >> done some thinking about plumbing the exhaust from a generator (used to >> charge the batteries) into the water. The carbon monoxide will go a long >> way to killing any marine organisms in the water trapped within the liner. >> I'm not really sure I want to do this plumbing part because I'm not sure >> what it will do to the color of the paint, acrylic windows, rubber seals, >> etc. The windows will likely be covered when it's docked. >> 5. I'm only looking to go to 80 feet max (the hull is 5/8" thick). >> That's because 90% of all sea life is found in the first 80 feet of water >> and that's what I'm going down to see. In addition, I don't want to go to >> a depth where I could not easily escape on scuba (there's a 2" flood valve >> in the back incase I've got to get out). >> >> There's *NO QUESTION *that if I had to do it all over again I would have >> made a much smaller sub! There are very significant advantages to a small >> boat (not the least of which is being able to put one on a small trailer >> and haul it with a reasonably common truck). Two advantages to a larger >> one (like the money pit I've put so much cash into) is that there's the >> possibility of spending the night on the ocean floor and having enough room >> for a toilet for those long dives. >> >> Merry Christmas and God bless, Jim >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 07:46:52 PM PST, via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hey, Jim, >> >> The size of that beast is quite impressive. You've received some >> excellent advice >> from the group. I'm curious about a few other items: >> 1. Where are you located, and where do you plan to launch? >> 2. How do you plan to launch? Trailer, gantry, davit, or ??? >> 3. Whichever end goes into the water first might require more draft than >> the boat >> will when it's level. If launching from a ramp it can be a major >> challenge to >> get it far enough out from the water's edge to float free of the >> trailer. >> 4. Salt water or fresh? I've noted that interior corrosion can be a >> bigger issue >> than exterior corrosion, and it can occur amazingly quickly. You >> can wash >> the exterior after a dive. >> 5. What operational depth did you design to? >> >> We'll all be eager to see it get wet for the first time. >> >> Cheers, >> (the other) Jim T. >> >> In a message dated 12/20/2023 5:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org writes: >> >> >> >> No worries, I still found your email useful and I certainly appreciate it! >> >> God bless, Jimhey >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 01:25:39 PM PST, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Sorry Jim, it?s only reading Hank?s response that I realized you do not >> have vertical thrusters. I thought you were asking about trim control, as >> in keeping on a level plane. But I most definitely agree with Hank that you >> need vertical thrusters. Sorry, I took those for granted. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Dec 20, 2023, at 12:42?PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Jim, Great size for a Psub. I always say building bigger is much >> easier as you get older. >> You will need vertical thrusters, for sure. I find dive planes difficult >> and not much use at slow speeds. Depending on size of coarse. If you get >> the sub trimmed perfectly, you need a way to push the sub down. If you >> dive slightly positive, you will land on the bottom. You will then add a >> pinch of air to become ,neutral. Now you need to lift off the bottom and >> start your travel, that requires thrust. If you add too much air to get a >> bit of altitude, you are heading to the surface. It becomes semi >> controlled bounce. Bolt a couple of thrusters on and you dives will be >> much more enjoyable. Because trolling motor thrusters are terrible in >> reverse, consider mounting two in opposite directions on each side, or >> front and back. >> Good luck and keep us posted. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 04:49:14 AM MST, vbra676539 at aol.com >> via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Understood, and best of luck. >> Vance >> >> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, 10:54:31 PM EST, james hughes via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear Vance, >> Thank you (to say the least) for your input! Much as I would like to go >> without any significant further changes to my boat I think I may just have >> to now. But having said that, I may see how the boat handles without any >> dive planes or additional thrusters. The simple truth is that I'm under a >> bit of a time crunch and may need to put any major changes off until later >> (I need to get this thing out of my brother's backyard ASAP). >> Thank you again and Merry Christmas! Jim >> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 05:29:19 PM PST, vbra676539 at aol.com via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Jim, >> As someone who has spent thousands of hours piloting 18 to 25 foot long >> subs with 10 hp motors, I can say with utter certainty that you would get >> some degree of use out of ANY additional maneuvering thrusters and/or >> control surfaces. The Perry boats generally had at least three small on/off >> reversible thrusters (usually fore and aft lateral, and forward vertical) >> plus a barn door rudder and side mounted dive planes (chord section all >> with end plates). The Hyco vehicles I operated had exactly none of those. >> Aquarius had one lonely pivoting hymak in the stern, and Leo and the Pisces >> boats had a pair of side thrusters pivoting on a common shaft. The JSLs had >> thrusters hanging all over them, so everything was done electrically, and >> It took a BIG battery to run that thing for 3 to 4 hours max. In any case. >> all of them had excellent trim systems, and none of them used that trim >> system for anything beyond initial attitude adjustments and fine buoyancy >> control in the water column. Long story short, I can tell you without >> equivocation that a Perry boat would, did, and will run rings around the >> competition. Ain't saying you can't do it simpler. Just saying that good >> control makes life easier down there in the cold dark wet places. >> Vance >> >> On Monday, December 18, 2023, 05:37:08 PM EST, james hughes via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> >> Thank you Alec for that reply! I have a bit more hope now that I can do >> without those dive planes. I should have also mentioned that I will be >> adding two trim tanks that should hold about 45 pounds of water each (for >> "fine tuning" the trim). >> >> God bless, Jim >> >> >> On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 12:05:21 PM PST, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> That is quite the addition to the fleet, I can't wait to see it in the >> water! I recall one PSUBBER with a large sub, though not quite as large as >> yours, who keeps a largish weight inside the cabin. I'm guessing it was >> maybe 30 lbs, but it was years ago. The weight had a handle on top and >> carpet glued underneath. He simply slid it forward or aft to trim the boat. >> Longitudinal trim is very sensitive to weight displacement. For example, a >> K250 changes trim visibly just when you open the hatch (the weight of the >> hatch is further aft when open.) With that sort of length to move things >> around in, I would not expect you to need dive planes. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 2:43?PM james hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hello Gang, >> My sub is nearing completion after many years of work. I based the >> design primarily on the K-250 blueprints I have but instead of having >> thrusters on the sides I have a 16 inch propeller under the aft ballast >> tank (linked to a 10 horsepower motor on the inside) and a 108 pound thrust >> trolling motor mounted under the forward ballast tank to help me turn port >> or starboard at low speeds. My question is: Do I need to add dive planes >> in order to keep the thing level as I cruise along above the sea floor at >> about 2 to 3 knots? The boat is 25 feet long, 5 feet in diameter and will >> weigh in at about 8 tons (with about the bottom 12 inches of the sub filled >> with lead ingots). Attached is an *old* picture to give you a visual of >> what it looks like (I'll post some new ones soon). *Any* input would be >> very much appreciated but I would really like to hear from anyone who has >> operated something like a K-350 using just the aft motor when submerged. I >> don't mind making changes / additions at this point but really want to get >> this thing done and in the water so I'm hoping I can go without the need >> for dive planes. Please let me know what you think! >> >> God bless and Merry Christmas to all! Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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