From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 5 12:36:49 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 16:36:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PX2022 videos References: <2014817949.7452048.1654447009745.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2014817949.7452048.1654447009745@mail.yahoo.com> I have three videos from the Michigan PX2022 expedition loaded on the web site.? It's available on the main page and also at?http://www.psubs.org/events/PX2022 If anyone else has video they want to post I need you to either send to me or post on youtube/vimeo.? If you posted directly on Facebook I can't download from there. I am still working on photos but between the group there are literally HUNDREDS of photos so it's going to take a bit more time for me to upload and display them.? This event was certainly well documented.? :)? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 06:33:27 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? References: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421@mail.yahoo.com> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 07:03:19 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 07:03:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? In-Reply-To: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421@mail.yahoo.com> References: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <78720915-8476-40BE-8415-D0975A638240@gmail.com> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering. Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences. Rick Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning. I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them. I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered. At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur. So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. > > Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers. I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 07:27:39 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 11:27:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? In-Reply-To: <78720915-8476-40BE-8415-D0975A638240@gmail.com> References: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421@mail.yahoo.com> <78720915-8476-40BE-8415-D0975A638240@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. Jon On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering.?Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences.?Rick ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 10:25:20 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:25:20 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? In-Reply-To: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on the width. The BMS sits on top of the cells. There is no significant padding under the cells. If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches. This would be very doable if you built a cage. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight. I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to. That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. > > Jon > > >> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering. >> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> ? >> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning. I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them. I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered. At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur. So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. >> >> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers. I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 15:49:46 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:49:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? In-Reply-To: References: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, I am currently using a single battery in the VAST interior AGM, weight of 58 lbs, dim 13.3x6.875x8.5" tall, 92 AH. My replacement lipo4 is 43.1 lbs, dim 19.02x6.7x9.45" tall, and 200AH. This battery I will be laying on its side which gives me an additional 2 inches of vertical height, which will give me better access to the scrubber location.The loss of weight of 14.3 lbs will be cast as a lead weight and placed in my drop weight tray. Better center of gravity and less weight in the aft section. I have played with the idea of having the cells placed as an arc between the internal t ribs as an alternative by building my own lipo4 battery pack. It would certainly give back valuable space in the VAST with such a design, just not sure I have the bandwidth to add another design project to my current schedule, but you never know. My thoughts on the battery pods, are to use the lipo4 as they come, figure out how to add lead weights in the hollow area beneath the batteries for some cast lead strips. At a cost $500 per battery or more depending on the AH desired, I wouldn't cut them open. Might be cheaper to build your own. David On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 7:26 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my > case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on > the width. The BMS sits on top of the cells. There is no significant > padding under the cells. If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you > could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches. This would be very doable if you > built a cage. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery > pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery > weight. I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two > LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to. That's attractive to me in terms of > maintenance. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is > designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth > considering. > Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and > I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have > decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and > possible weight differences. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning. I've been following > some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see > what's inside and also test various functions of them. I've notice with > all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the > container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered. At > first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the > container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which > seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur. So > I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can > provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. > > Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to > current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging > current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers. I can't see any > reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would > want to hear. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 18:15:40 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:15:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e2501d879f2$f71e6340$e55b29c0$@gmail.com> Hi Jon, Hank, et co. I have been repackaging LiFePO4 for 10 years now since I started. This is the main thing that has kept me from getting my sub in the water. First thing you need to decide on is the Life PO4 type. Either cylindrical or Prismatic. Cylindrical batteries have better performance. I am using 15 Ah cells (headway 40152S 15Ah )which have a 10C discharge i.e. 150 amps. We have made a test circuit where we discharge them at 150 amps and see what the current drops to in each cell. I have 560 cells. The problem with them is that you need multiple CMU (cell management Units) to balance them and then report via CAN to the BMS. These cells are 40mm diam x mounted in hexagonal plastic interlocking mounts and you can build different shapes. I have a number of different strings of 8 cells (24v) in parallel and series. The idea of these is to have an air space around each cell and to provide good cooling. Due to the pain in my butt from having all these CMU's to deal with I am now changing over to Prismatic which are rectangular. The ones I am using are 120Ah and I am able to get 1.5 times the total energy for the sub. i.e. 32kwh instead of 22 kwh. Now I am able to use far fewer CMU's and simplify the system and packaging but only able to get 2C discharge (240 amps per cell). These cells are a lot cheaper and easier to manage and package/service etc.. The problem with sub batteries is the length of time between uses and keeping the system charged. This is a lengthy subject and I have a fair bit of experience in problems that I have had. I suggest you put together the wish list you have and the operating voltage and total amphours you are wanting to achieve. I would not recommend removing the BMS and CMU's from the packs. Jon if you can tell me where I can drop a bunch of documents I am sure I can assist with my experience in these. I have had some cells let go and others punctured. Both types. I am also importing electric vehicles with lead acid and going to convert to LiFePo4. Cheers to all, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2022 7:50 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) 3. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 11:27:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. Jon On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering.?Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences.?Rick ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:25:20 -0600 From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on the width. The BMS sits on top of the cells. There is no significant padding under the cells. If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches. This would be very doable if you built a cage. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight. I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to. That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. > > Jon > > >> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering. >> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> ? >> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning. I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them. I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered. At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur. So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. >> >> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers. I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:49:46 -0700 From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Jon, I am currently using a single battery in the VAST interior AGM, weight of 58 lbs, dim 13.3x6.875x8.5" tall, 92 AH. My replacement lipo4 is 43.1 lbs, dim 19.02x6.7x9.45" tall, and 200AH. This battery I will be laying on its side which gives me an additional 2 inches of vertical height, which will give me better access to the scrubber location.The loss of weight of 14.3 lbs will be cast as a lead weight and placed in my drop weight tray. Better center of gravity and less weight in the aft section. I have played with the idea of having the cells placed as an arc between the internal t ribs as an alternative by building my own lipo4 battery pack. It would certainly give back valuable space in the VAST with such a design, just not sure I have the bandwidth to add another design project to my current schedule, but you never know. My thoughts on the battery pods, are to use the lipo4 as they come, figure out how to add lead weights in the hollow area beneath the batteries for some cast lead strips. At a cost $500 per battery or more depending on the AH desired, I wouldn't cut them open. Might be cheaper to build your own. David On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 7:26 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In > my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on > the width. The BMS sits on top of the cells. There is no significant > padding under the cells. If you are willing to remove the BMS board, > you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches. This would be very > doable if you built a cage. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the > battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the > original battery weight. I believe I can literally power the entire > submarine with just two > LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to. That's attractive to me in terms of > maintenance. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is > designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but > worth considering. > Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models > and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but > have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space > limitations and possible weight differences. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning. I've been following > some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see > what's inside and also test various functions of them. I've notice > with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly > smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep > them centered. At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the > cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used > on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause > chafing would occur. So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply > using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. > > Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to > current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about > repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers. > I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some > opinions out there I would want to hear. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2 ***************************************************** From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 6 18:22:12 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 22:22:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? In-Reply-To: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <551756563.7053752.1654511607421@mail.yahoo.com> <78720915-8476-40BE-8415-D0975A638240@gmail.com> <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <353383964.100589.1654554132924@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon,I had a 48V 100ah lifepo4 battery pack that was configurable. 4 x 3V cells making a 12V & 4 x12V batteries strapped together.?There are a lot of different types and sizes out there.I didn't have a bms & killed the batteries due to a small mistake. I powered an inflatable with them for a few years.I cut them up afterward and didn't see any padding.I have pulled apart and ignited a number of smaller lithium batteries.I am holding off on the purchase of my submarine batteries till the last minute as there has been very positive progress made with the lithium sulphur battery.Maybe commercially available in 2 years. They will be cheaper than lithium iron and have 4 times the range.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 11:29 pm, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 7 11:59:50 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 16:59:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PX2022 videos In-Reply-To: <2014817949.7452048.1654447009745@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2014817949.7452048.1654447009745.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2014817949.7452048.1654447009745@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great videos guys. Amazing what good condition the wreck is even after so long. Interesting story about its life as well. On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 at 17:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I have three videos from the Michigan PX2022 expedition loaded on the web > site. It's available on the main page and also at > http://www.psubs.org/events/PX2022 > > If anyone else has video they want to post I need you to either send to me > or post on youtube/vimeo. If you posted directly on Facebook I can't > download from there. > > I am still working on photos but between the group there are literally > HUNDREDS of photos so it's going to take a bit more time for me to upload > and display them. This event was certainly well documented. :) > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 7 23:25:28 2022 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 03:25:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <1e2501d879f2$f71e6340$e55b29c0$@gmail.com> References: <1e2501d879f2$f71e6340$e55b29c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1467532091.766897.1654658728231@mail.yahoo.com> Hugh, how big are the files?? Can you email them to me? >From what I've seen and heard with others experience, I feel 50ah per trolling motor is plenty.? I'm using 36v 101# minnkota's and would like to use a 36v 100ah battery that could power two motors.? Length is not an issue but the diameter of the pods limits the width cross-section.? I'll have to measure again to get the exact size but it's about 8.75 inches. Rebel sells a 36v-100ah LiFePO4 for $1595 (US) but won't fit in my battery pods.? I might be able to get it to fit inside the sub though. Jon On Monday, June 6, 2022, 06:18:07 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon, Hank, et co. I have been repackaging LiFePO4 for 10 years now since I started. This is the main thing that has kept me from getting my sub in the water. First thing you need to decide on is the Life PO4 type.? Either cylindrical or Prismatic.? Cylindrical batteries have better performance.? I am using 15 Ah cells (headway 40152S 15Ah )which have a 10C discharge i.e. 150 amps.? We have made a test circuit where we discharge them at 150 amps and see what the current drops to in each cell.? I have 560 cells.? The problem with them is that you need multiple CMU (cell management Units) to balance them and then report via CAN to the BMS.? These cells are 40mm diam x mounted in hexagonal plastic interlocking mounts and you can build different shapes.? I have a number of different strings of 8 cells (24v) in parallel and series. The idea of these is to have an air space around each cell and to provide good cooling. Due to the pain in my butt from having all these CMU's to deal with I am now changing over to Prismatic which are rectangular.? The ones I am using are 120Ah and I am able to get 1.5 times the total energy for the sub.? i.e. 32kwh instead of 22 kwh.? Now I am able to use far fewer CMU's and simplify the system and packaging but only able to get 2C discharge (240 amps per cell).? These cells are a lot cheaper and easier to manage and package/service etc.. The problem with sub batteries is the length of time between uses and keeping the system charged. This is a lengthy subject and I have a fair bit of experience in problems that I have had.? I suggest you put together the wish list you have and the operating voltage and total amphours you are wanting to achieve. I would not recommend removing the BMS and CMU's from the packs. Jon if you can tell me where I can drop a bunch of documents I am sure I can assist with my experience in these.? I have had some cells let go and others punctured.? Both types. I am also importing electric vehicles with lead acid and going to convert to LiFePo4. Cheers to all, Hugh -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2022 7:50 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ??? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) ? 2. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ? 3. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 11:27:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. Jon ? ? On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering.?Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences.?Rick ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:25:20 -0600 From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on the width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant padding under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very doable if you built a cage. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of maintenance. > > Jon > > >> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth considering. >> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and possible weight differences. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> ? >> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. >> >> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear. >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:49:46 -0700 From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles ??? To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ??? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Jon, I am currently using a single battery in the VAST interior AGM, weight of 58 lbs, dim 13.3x6.875x8.5" tall, 92 AH. My replacement lipo4 is 43.1 lbs, dim 19.02x6.7x9.45" tall, and 200AH. This battery I will be laying on its side which gives me an additional 2 inches of vertical height, which will give me better access to the scrubber location.The loss of weight of 14.3 lbs will be cast as a lead weight and placed in my drop weight tray. Better center of gravity and less weight in the aft section. I have played with the idea of having the cells placed as an arc between the internal t ribs as an alternative by building my own lipo4 battery pack. It would certainly give back valuable? space in the VAST with such a design, just not sure I have the bandwidth to add another design project to my current schedule, but you never know. My thoughts on the battery pods, are to use the lipo4 as they come, figure out how to add lead weights in the hollow area beneath the batteries for some cast lead strips. At a cost $500 per battery or more depending on the AH desired, I wouldn't cut them open. Might be cheaper to build your own. David On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 7:26 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In > my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on > the width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant > padding under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board, > you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very > doable if you built a cage. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the > battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the > original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire > submarine with just two > LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of > maintenance. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is > designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but > worth considering. > Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models > and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but > have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space > limitations and possible weight differences. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following > some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see > what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice > with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly > smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep > them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the > cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used > on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause > chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply > using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes. > > Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to > current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about > repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? > I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some > opinions out there I would want to hear. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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