[PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders

Fri Sep 17 13:35:02 EDT 2021

Thanks Alan, it makes it so much easier when I can see a schematic. I am
still a little fuzzy though about the hole in the handle. and it seems more
complicated and possible more expensive? than using a second stage scuba
reg?
Rick

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 7:07 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Rick,
>
> Below is the drawing of the set up I have been talking about.
>
> The regulator is stainless, as is the main adjustment spring in it’s
> handle.
>
> With this system & using a relief valve, you don’t need a relieving type
> regulator.
>
> I am opting for a regulator with an inlet maximum pressure of 500psi which
> accounts for 130psi system pressure
>
> Plus the pressure at my maximum depth. The outlet has a 0-25psi range. You
> may get away with an inlet max of 130psi as the regulator
>
> housing the pressure is also under the inreasing external pressure. I am
> just concerned about additional pressure on the valve.
>
> If the handle area doesn’t have a hole in it, it needs one for the water
> to pressurize the diaphragm to give set pressure plus ambient.
>
> A hose extension can be used off the handle area so the water has further
> to travel and keeps away from the diaphragm which may have
>
> A cap that can corrode. There are regulators with stainless diaphragms .
> Piston type regulators aren’t sensitive enough.
>
> On the motor side you can have a dedicated nipple for the oil system or
> run the oil down a tube that contains the wires.
>
> There should be a plug on the manifold for oil filling but forgot to add
> it. The over pressure valve is also used for manually releasing
>
> Pressure out of the system.
>
> Hope that all makes sense.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows
>
>
>
> *From: *Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent: *Friday, 17 September 2021 5:32 am
> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders
>
>
>
> Hi Hank
>
> would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so
> it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas
> about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and
> others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for
> the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is
> that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't
> compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0"
> rings?
>
> Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head
> around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.
>
> Are you going to the reunion?
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded
> fitting in the housing.  You can drill and tap either end in most cases.
> Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with
> the bolts etc.  I have a youtube video on how to do this.
>
> I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.  It is still a good
> idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.
>
> Hank
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Hank.
>
> Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you
> are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the
> can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to
> allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory
> "0" rings?
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick.  I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.  I use a
> length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.  I intended to
> install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that.   I
> don’t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to
> nothing.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi Rick,
>
>
>
> You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love
> air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for
> each person.
>
>
>
> I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the
> motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you
> disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out
> the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is
> supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started
> diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of
> pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that
> the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction
> between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient
> temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft
> seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My
> solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691
>
>
>
> That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before
> selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem
> getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back
> the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that
> issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a
> bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as
> the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT
> good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to
> use an oil that is harmless.
>
>
>
> Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the
> mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the
> arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination
> showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was
> retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and
> trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea
> where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water
> entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the
> sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a
> small independent cylinder.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to
> hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what
> they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a
> squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just
> spoke with someone who didn’t use a bladder and had never had a problem.
> Rick
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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