From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 1 12:30:31 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:30:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PC2021 In-Reply-To: <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1016746797.1597590.1613314679462@mail.yahoo.com> <824939720.1668391.1613339912593@mail.yahoo.com> <1334505958.2020282.1613422462533@mail.yahoo.com> <845731306.2690987.1613606983305@mail.yahoo.com> <1842407493.1246192.1614526180257@mail.yahoo.com> <239973090.1371370.1614550821980@mail.yahoo.com> <1649742856.313545.1617985289475@mail.yahoo.com> <575978356.359985.1617991291136@mail.yahoo.com> <888633740.388756.1617993797179@mail.yahoo.com> <464286843.422853.1617999264428@mail.yahoo.com> <95220779.1998321.1618406150119@mail.yahoo.com> <1254742732.1830320.1629298824014@mail.yahoo.com> <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> Hello psubbers, If you are planning to stay at the DoubleTree Orlando Airport hotel as part of the PC2021 convention, you have until Sept 13 to book a room at our group rate of $129/night.? Please use group name "PSUBS Meeting" and/or group code "SUB" when booking.? If you run into a problem please email me at jon.wallace at yahoo.com.? Remember, our contract also states we will not be charged for parking. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 9 09:43:53 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:43:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PC2021 In-Reply-To: <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1016746797.1597590.1613314679462@mail.yahoo.com> <824939720.1668391.1613339912593@mail.yahoo.com> <1334505958.2020282.1613422462533@mail.yahoo.com> <845731306.2690987.1613606983305@mail.yahoo.com> <1842407493.1246192.1614526180257@mail.yahoo.com> <239973090.1371370.1614550821980@mail.yahoo.com> <1649742856.313545.1617985289475@mail.yahoo.com> <575978356.359985.1617991291136@mail.yahoo.com> <888633740.388756.1617993797179@mail.yahoo.com> <464286843.422853.1617999264428@mail.yahoo.com> <95220779.1998321.1618406150119@mail.yahoo.com> <1254742732.1830320.1629298824014@mail.yahoo.com> <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All, I have made my reservations for the convention. It went just as expected with no issues (I called the hotel directly). I am arriving 10/13 evening and checking out the AM of 10/15 as we depart for Triton. The room is non-smoking with 2 queen beds. If anyone is interested in sharing the room/expense let me know. Steve On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 12:31 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello psubbers, > > If you are planning to stay at the DoubleTree Orlando Airport hotel as > part of the PC2021 convention, you have until Sept 13 to book a room at our > group rate of $129/night. Please use group name "PSUBS Meeting" and/or > group code "SUB" when booking. If you run into a problem please email me > at jon.wallace at yahoo.com. Remember, our contract also states we will not > be charged for parking. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 10 11:03:12 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PC2021 In-Reply-To: References: <1016746797.1597590.1613314679462@mail.yahoo.com> <824939720.1668391.1613339912593@mail.yahoo.com> <1334505958.2020282.1613422462533@mail.yahoo.com> <845731306.2690987.1613606983305@mail.yahoo.com> <1842407493.1246192.1614526180257@mail.yahoo.com> <239973090.1371370.1614550821980@mail.yahoo.com> <1649742856.313545.1617985289475@mail.yahoo.com> <575978356.359985.1617991291136@mail.yahoo.com> <888633740.388756.1617993797179@mail.yahoo.com> <464286843.422853.1617999264428@mail.yahoo.com> <95220779.1998321.1618406150119@mail.yahoo.com> <1254742732.1830320.1629298824014@mail.yahoo.com> <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1665317513.238928.1631286192087@mail.yahoo.com> FYI, I also booked reservations today for Psubs PC2021.? Hope to tag with group Wednesday evening at hotel.? Had no issue booking hotel with convention rate by calling hotel directly. Looking forward to seeing fellow psubbers at convention and catching up on your PSub journey. Cliff On Thursday, September 9, 2021, 08:45:00 AM CDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: All, I have made my reservations for the convention. It went just as expected with no issues (I called the?hotel directly). I am arriving 10/13 evening and checking out the AM of 10/15 as we depart for Triton.? The room is non-smoking with 2 queen beds. If anyone is interested in sharing the room/expense let me know. Steve On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 12:31 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello psubbers, If you are planning to stay at the DoubleTree Orlando Airport hotel as part of the PC2021 convention, you have until Sept 13 to book a room at our group rate of $129/night.? Please use group name "PSUBS Meeting" and/or group code "SUB" when booking.? If you run into a problem please email me at jon.wallace at yahoo.com.? Remember, our contract also states we will not be charged for parking. Jon_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 10 11:30:31 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:30:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PC2021 In-Reply-To: <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1016746797.1597590.1613314679462@mail.yahoo.com> <824939720.1668391.1613339912593@mail.yahoo.com> <1334505958.2020282.1613422462533@mail.yahoo.com> <845731306.2690987.1613606983305@mail.yahoo.com> <1842407493.1246192.1614526180257@mail.yahoo.com> <239973090.1371370.1614550821980@mail.yahoo.com> <1649742856.313545.1617985289475@mail.yahoo.com> <575978356.359985.1617991291136@mail.yahoo.com> <888633740.388756.1617993797179@mail.yahoo.com> <464286843.422853.1617999264428@mail.yahoo.com> <95220779.1998321.1618406150119@mail.yahoo.com> <1254742732.1830320.1629298824014@mail.yahoo.com> <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411484944.238759.1631287831185@mail.yahoo.com> A reminder, you have until 9/13 (three more days) to take advantage of the group rate for this hotel.? Also, whether you plan to attend in person OR zoom, please go to the website and register.? Jon On Wednesday, September 1, 2021, 12:32:39 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello psubbers, If you are planning to stay at the DoubleTree Orlando Airport hotel as part of the PC2021 convention, you have until Sept 13 to book a room at our group rate of $129/night.? Please use group name "PSUBS Meeting" and/or group code "SUB" when booking.? If you run into a problem please email me at jon.wallace at yahoo.com.? Remember, our contract also states we will not be charged for parking. Jon_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 10 18:13:08 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:13:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PC2021 In-Reply-To: <1665317513.238928.1631286192087@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1016746797.1597590.1613314679462@mail.yahoo.com> <824939720.1668391.1613339912593@mail.yahoo.com> <1334505958.2020282.1613422462533@mail.yahoo.com> <845731306.2690987.1613606983305@mail.yahoo.com> <1842407493.1246192.1614526180257@mail.yahoo.com> <239973090.1371370.1614550821980@mail.yahoo.com> <1649742856.313545.1617985289475@mail.yahoo.com> <575978356.359985.1617991291136@mail.yahoo.com> <888633740.388756.1617993797179@mail.yahoo.com> <464286843.422853.1617999264428@mail.yahoo.com> <95220779.1998321.1618406150119@mail.yahoo.com> <1254742732.1830320.1629298824014@mail.yahoo.com> <603462091.538676.1630172091581@mail.yahoo.com> <1485542815.1868472.1630513831781@mail.yahoo.com> <1665317513.238928.1631286192087@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <641366251.408518.1631311988204@mail.yahoo.com> My booking is complete as well. Jon On Friday, September 10, 2021, 11:05:23 AM EDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: FYI, I also booked reservations today for Psubs PC2021.? Hope to tag with group Wednesday evening at hotel.? Had no issue booking hotel with convention rate by calling hotel directly. Looking forward to seeing fellow psubbers at convention and catching up on your PSub journey. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 00:11:52 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:11:52 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders Message-ID: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 00:34:33 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> References: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <683475593.638085.1631680473868@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,?I am pressurising the oil in my thrusters with air at 5psi above ambient.?Have found that without a bit of pressure the oil gets flung out of the motor housing & up the feed tube.?The feed tube to the thruster is clear & gives me an indication of the oil level.?I have spent a lot of time on the compensator issue, even 3d printing one & using a second stage regulator.?I am currently ordering a stainless 316 pressure regulator with a 0-25psi output range and a stainless brewers over-pressure valve set at between 6-8psi. This is similar to what Brian Hughes is doing & a modification on what Cliff was using. Cliffs relieving type regulator couldn't cope with the back pressure build up.?One advantage of going this route is that if you want to copy the Psubs electric manipulator (am working on my own version) you need to air compensate it & you can do both off this same unit.?I am running a hose from the regulator to a manifold, from which hoses will go to 4 thrusters, the electric manipulator and over-pressure valve.?Let me know if I can help.?Alan On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 04:14:32 PM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 09:17:55 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:17:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> References: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person. I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder. Best, Alec On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 09:31:12 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 07:31:12 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 17:12:26 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:12:26 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <683475593.638085.1631680473868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> <683475593.638085.1631680473868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, You mentioned oil being flung up the feed tube and that it is clear and gives you an idea of the oil level. I am confused on how you have your feed tube set up? Does it come out of the top and back into the bottom of the can or is there only one hole in the can with a clear tube coming out a foot or so with a plug on the end and there must me air in the plastic tube to be able to give you an oil level and I didn't think you were supposed to have any air in the system at all? Rick On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:35 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > I am pressurising the oil in my thrusters with air at 5psi above ambient. > Have found that without a bit of pressure the oil gets flung out of the > motor housing & up the feed tube. > The feed tube to the thruster is clear & gives me an indication of the oil > level. > I have spent a lot of time on the compensator issue, even 3d printing one > & using a second stage regulator. > I am currently ordering a stainless 316 pressure regulator with a 0-25psi > output range and a stainless brewers over-pressure valve set at between > 6-8psi. This is similar to what Brian Hughes is doing & a modification on > what Cliff was using. Cliffs relieving type regulator couldn't cope with > the back pressure build up. > One advantage of going this route is that if you want to copy the Psubs > electric manipulator (am working on my own version) you need to air > compensate it & you can do both off this same unit. > I am running a hose from the regulator to a manifold, from which hoses > will go to 4 thrusters, the electric manipulator and over-pressure valve. > Let me know if I can help. > Alan > > > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 04:14:32 PM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 17:16:35 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:16:35 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Hank. Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings? Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to >> hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what >> they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a >> squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just >> spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Sep 15 17:56:37 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:56:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> <683475593.638085.1631680473868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <958372937.955120.1631742997973@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,?This is a home built brushless thruster. I have attached a photo of a pool test.?It's not that clear but I have one tube coming off the motor that also contains the wiring.?The tube is going to an oil compensator (big aluminium thing sitting in the plastic box).?At a point along the tube I have a plummers T fitting where the wires are potted & come out from. Another tube is attached at 90 degrees & leads to the compensator.?So I fill the motor up with 5cst silicone oil and don't worry about getting every bubble of air out. Then attach the hose & fill the rest of it from a fill port on the compensator.?I have done away with that compensator and are using an air pressure regulator set at 5psi with a relieving valve set at 7-8 psi.?The regulator has to be mounted upside down & have a hole in the handle area. The seawater comes in through the hole and compresses the air on to the regulator diaphragm, giving your set pressure of 5psi plus ambient water pressure.?You could have a separate nipple on your motor for the air compensation tube.?You fill the oil partially up the tube which acts as your oil level indicator. The beauty of having oil pressurised by air, is that if the oil leaked out the air will replace it & still keep?the seawater out.?BTW Karl Stanley has been to 2000ft with anair compensated system, using a 1st stage regulator that he has removed the spring from to give ambient pressure.?I don't like the system where people wrap a tube around the motor & connect to two nipples. We discussed this at length & thought that the plastic tubing may not collapse to give ambient pressure till about 100psi. So you are basically relying on the motor seals.?I can do you a dwg of how my system will be if you like!?Alan On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:14:18 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alan,?You mentioned oil being flung up the feed tube and that it is clear and gives you an idea of the oil level. I am confused on how you have your feed tube set up? Does it come out of the top and back into the bottom of the can or is there only one hole in the can with a clear tube coming out a foot or so with?a plug on the end and there must me air in the plastic tube to be able to give you an oil level and I didn't think you were supposed?to have any air in the system at all?Rick On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:35 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,?I am pressurising the oil in my thrusters with air at 5psi above ambient.?Have found that without a bit of pressure the oil gets flung out of the motor housing & up the feed tube.?The feed tube to the thruster is clear & gives me an indication of the oil level.?I have spent a lot of time on the compensator issue, even 3d printing one & using a second stage regulator.?I am currently ordering a stainless 316 pressure regulator with a 0-25psi output range and a stainless brewers over-pressure valve set at between 6-8psi. This is similar to what Brian Hughes is doing & a modification on what Cliff was using. Cliffs relieving type regulator couldn't cope with the back pressure build up.?One advantage of going this route is that if you want to copy the Psubs electric manipulator (am working on my own version) you need to air compensate it & you can do both off this same unit.?I am running a hose from the regulator to a manifold, from which hoses will go to 4 thrusters, the electric manipulator and over-pressure valve.?Let me know if I can help.?Alan On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 04:14:32 PM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20210208_174925.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 383172 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 16 08:26:13 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing. ?You can drill and tap either end in most cases. ?Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc. ?I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. ?It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 16 08:31:30 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:31:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1221602651.1111653.1631795490345@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, sorry forgot to mention, my rubber vacuum tube does not return to the motor, I just fill it with a syringe and leave a small air space for oil expansion, then plug with a cut off bolt and hose clamp. ?The air space will simply squeeze with pressure. ?BTW the sub went to 976 feet with this set up and has been diving regularly with no issues.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 16 13:20:41 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:20:41 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <958372937.955120.1631742997973@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0A844950-C28D-4F37-A301-28BFD53951E0@gmail.com> <683475593.638085.1631680473868@mail.yahoo.com> <958372937.955120.1631742997973@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, would love a drawing if you don't mind as I am not clear how you will use the motor when underwater and not have all the stuff you show on the ladder? Thanks Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:58 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > This is a home built brushless thruster. I have attached a photo of a pool > test. > It's not that clear but I have one tube coming off the motor that also > contains the wiring. > The tube is going to an oil compensator (big aluminium thing sitting in > the plastic box). > At a point along the tube I have a plummers T fitting where the wires are > potted & come out from. Another tube is attached at 90 degrees & leads to > the compensator. > So I fill the motor up with 5cst silicone oil and don't worry about > getting every bubble of air out. Then attach the hose & fill the rest of it > from a fill port on the compensator. > I have done away with that compensator and are using an air pressure > regulator set at 5psi with a relieving valve set at 7-8 psi. > The regulator has to be mounted upside down & have a hole in the handle > area. The seawater comes in through the hole and compresses the air on to > the regulator diaphragm, giving your set pressure of 5psi plus ambient > water pressure. > You could have a separate nipple on your motor for the air compensation > tube. > You fill the oil partially up the tube which acts as your oil level > indicator. The beauty of having oil pressurised by air, is that if the oil > leaked out the air will replace it & still keep > the seawater out. > BTW Karl Stanley has been to 2000ft with an > air compensated system, using a 1st stage regulator that he has removed > the spring from to give ambient pressure. > I don't like the system where people wrap a tube around the motor & > connect to two nipples. We discussed this at length & thought that the > plastic tubing may not collapse to give ambient pressure till about 100psi. > So you are basically relying on the motor seals. > I can do you a dwg of how my system will be if you like! > Alan > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:14:18 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Alan, > You mentioned oil being flung up the feed tube and that it is clear and > gives you an idea of the oil level. I am confused on how you have your feed > tube set up? Does it come out of the top and back into the bottom of the > can or is there only one hole in the can with a clear tube coming out a > foot or so with a plug on the end and there must me air in the plastic tube > to be able to give you an oil level and I didn't think you were supposed to > have any air in the system at all? > Rick > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:35 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I am pressurising the oil in my thrusters with air at 5psi above ambient. > Have found that without a bit of pressure the oil gets flung out of the > motor housing & up the feed tube. > The feed tube to the thruster is clear & gives me an indication of the oil > level. > I have spent a lot of time on the compensator issue, even 3d printing one > & using a second stage regulator. > I am currently ordering a stainless 316 pressure regulator with a 0-25psi > output range and a stainless brewers over-pressure valve set at between > 6-8psi. This is similar to what Brian Hughes is doing & a modification on > what Cliff was using. Cliffs relieving type regulator couldn't cope with > the back pressure build up. > One advantage of going this route is that if you want to copy the Psubs > electric manipulator (am working on my own version) you need to air > compensate it & you can do both off this same unit. > I am running a hose from the regulator to a manifold, from which hoses > will go to 4 thrusters, the electric manipulator and over-pressure valve. > Let me know if I can help. > Alan > > > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 04:14:32 PM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Sep 16 13:31:01 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:31:01 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings? Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. Are you going to the reunion? Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 01:06:34 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 17:06:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <202109161915.18GJFMp5048271@whoweb.com> Rick, Below is the drawing of the set up I have been talking about. The regulator is stainless, as is the main adjustment spring in it?s handle. With this system & using a relief valve, you don?t need a relieving type regulator. I am opting for a regulator with an inlet maximum pressure of 500psi which accounts for 130psi system pressure Plus the pressure at my maximum depth. The outlet has a 0-25psi range. You may get away with an inlet max of 130psi as the regulator housing the pressure is also under the inreasing external pressure. I am just concerned about additional pressure on the valve. If the handle area doesn?t have a hole in it, it needs one for the water to pressurize the diaphragm to give set pressure plus ambient. A hose extension can be used off the handle area so the water has further to travel and keeps away from the diaphragm which may have A cap that can corrode. There are regulators with stainless diaphragms . Piston type regulators aren?t sensitive enough. On the motor side you can have a dedicated nipple for the oil system or run the oil down a tube that contains the wires. There should be a plug on the manifold for oil filling but forgot to add it. The over pressure valve is also used for manually releasing Pressure out of the system. Hope that all makes sense. Alan Sent from Mail for Windows From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 17 September 2021 5:32 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders Hi Hank would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings?? Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.? Are you going to the reunion? Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.? I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank. Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings?? Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best, Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 99F5A5FD49864E6394348114D89E7551.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 05:31:31 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:31:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight. ?Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle. ?This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. ?Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem. ?Maybe I am missing something. ?If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. ?I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 08:37:28 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:37:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My understanding is this... In compensation systems, there's two things you are compensating for; the squeeze of air bubbles and the thermal contraction or expansion of the oil. Add those two together, and that's how much delta you need in the volume of the bladder. Hank, I'm not familiar with your setup, but I take it this hose acts as your (well, your sub's) bladder? I take it then it's a soft hose that can squeeze or stretch a bit. All is fine if the bubble is small enough that the hose flexibility can handle it easily. If not, the downside of the bubble would be pressure on the thruster seals. But if you have no bubble, or a smaller one, there is less compressing for that hose to take care of. Best, Alec On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 5:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 13:35:02 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:35:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <202109161915.18GJFMp5048271@whoweb.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <202109161915.18GJFMp5048271@whoweb.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan, it makes it so much easier when I can see a schematic. I am still a little fuzzy though about the hole in the handle. and it seems more complicated and possible more expensive? than using a second stage scuba reg? Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 7:07 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > > Below is the drawing of the set up I have been talking about. > > The regulator is stainless, as is the main adjustment spring in it?s > handle. > > With this system & using a relief valve, you don?t need a relieving type > regulator. > > I am opting for a regulator with an inlet maximum pressure of 500psi which > accounts for 130psi system pressure > > Plus the pressure at my maximum depth. The outlet has a 0-25psi range. You > may get away with an inlet max of 130psi as the regulator > > housing the pressure is also under the inreasing external pressure. I am > just concerned about additional pressure on the valve. > > If the handle area doesn?t have a hole in it, it needs one for the water > to pressurize the diaphragm to give set pressure plus ambient. > > A hose extension can be used off the handle area so the water has further > to travel and keeps away from the diaphragm which may have > > A cap that can corrode. There are regulators with stainless diaphragms . > Piston type regulators aren?t sensitive enough. > > On the motor side you can have a dedicated nipple for the oil system or > run the oil down a tube that contains the wires. > > There should be a plug on the manifold for oil filling but forgot to add > it. The over pressure valve is also used for manually releasing > > Pressure out of the system. > > Hope that all makes sense. > > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows > > > > *From: *Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > *Sent: *Friday, 17 September 2021 5:32 am > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders > > > > Hi Hank > > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > > Are you going to the reunion? > > Rick > > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > > Hank > > > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > Hi Hank. > > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > > Rick > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > > Hi Rick, > > > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 99F5A5FD49864E6394348114D89E7551.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 13:43:27 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:43:27 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 16:13:20 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:13:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1934655310.1678369.1631909600892@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, think of the air bubble as a shock absorber or a spring. ?The air bubble has zero impact on the seals, it simply acts as a means for the oil to expand a tiny bit.?Hank On Friday, September 17, 2021, 11:43:54 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble?was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases?as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings??Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 16:18:11 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1549289036.1676431.1631909891720@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, yes, my hose is very soft allowing it to collapse easily. ?So far it is working fine, but I am connecting to a suspension air bag this winter. ?I may experience greater temperature swing now that I will be diving more often. ?The hose system may not handle greater temperature changes, due to greater volume requirements.Hank On Friday, September 17, 2021, 06:37:55 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My understanding is this... In compensation systems, there's two things you are?compensating for; the squeeze of air bubbles and the thermal contraction or expansion of the oil. Add those two together, and that's how much delta you need in the volume of the bladder. Hank, I'm not familiar with your setup, but I take it this hose acts as your (well, your sub's) bladder? I take it then it's a soft hose that can squeeze or stretch a bit.? All is fine if the bubble is small enough that the hose flexibility can handle it easily. If not, the downside of the bubble would be pressure on the thruster seals. But if you have no bubble, or a smaller one, there is less compressing for that hose to take care of.? Best,Alec? On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 5:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 16:56:12 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:56:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <202109161915.18GJFMp5048271@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1004284049.1675641.1631912172521@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,?Hugh Fulton who owns a valve manufacturing & importing business first came up with the idea of using a relieving regulator for setting the compensating air slightly above ambient. (Industry standard for oil compensation is about 5psi above ambient.) In a relieving regulator there is a hole that lets excess pressure in the systemEscape out through the handle area. The relieving pressure is factory set to a few psi above your set pressure.?Cliff Redus bought a Parker 364 mini stainless regulator as did Brian Hughes, but they are quite pricy unless you pick one up on ebay.?Cliff wasn't happy with it as there was a pressure build up due to the relieving hole being too small to exhaust the expanding air volume from all his thrusters.?Brian has solved this problem by having a separate relief valve plumbed in to a line from the regulator output. His relief valve is a scuba dump valve that he has fitted in to some pvc pipe. With Brian's system you do not need a relieving type regulator. Just a single stage diaphragm type non corrosive regulator.?It does however need at least one hole in the handle /spring area to let water in to give you ambient pressure. Same as a scuba second stage letting water in against the diaphragm.?As the components inside the handle area are exposed to water, they need to be non corrosive.You can pick up a second stage octopus regulator for quite cheap. I say octopus because they are less sensitive & prone to free flowing. The Pr364 regulator is very expensive for what it is. I can pick up a much larger item from China for 1/3 the price.?With the second stage regulator, I put extensions on the exhaust valve to help stop water getting in the system.?I am going with an over-pressure system because I want to air compensate linear actuators in an electric manipulator, and feel they are in more need of over pressure.?I have an exhaust valve on the way, but are 3d printing the regulator part, & using a second stage reg valve.?Hope that makes it a bit clearer.?Let me know if you have any questions.?I am looking forward to all the diving videos of those Hawaiian waters!?Alan On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:37:12 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Alan, it makes it so much easier when I can see a schematic. I am still a little fuzzy though about the hole in the handle. and it seems more complicated and possible more expensive? than using?a second stage scuba reg? Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 7:07 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, Below is the drawing of the set up I have been talking about. The regulator is stainless, as is the main adjustment spring in it?s handle. With this system & using a relief valve, you don?t need a relieving type regulator. I am opting for a regulator with an inlet maximum pressure of 500psi which accounts for 130psi system pressure Plus the pressure at my maximum depth. The outlet has a 0-25psi range. You may get away with an inlet max of 130psi as the regulator housing the pressure is also under the inreasing external pressure. I am just concerned about additional pressure on the valve. If the handle area doesn?t have a hole in it, it needs one for the water to pressurize the diaphragm to give set pressure plus ambient. A hose extension can be used off the handle area so the water has further to travel and keeps away from the diaphragm which may have A cap that can corrode. There are regulators with stainless diaphragms . Piston type regulators aren?t sensitive enough. On the motor side you can have a dedicated nipple for the oil system or run the oil down a tube that contains the wires. There should be a plug on the manifold for oil filling but forgot to add it. The over pressure valve is also used for manually releasing Pressure out of the system. Hope that all makes sense. Alan ? ? ? Sent from Mail for Windows ? From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, 17 September 2021 5:32 am To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders ? Hi Hank would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings?? Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.? Are you going to the reunion? Rick ? On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.? I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. Hank ? On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? Hi Hank. Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings?? Rick ? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Rick, ? You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? ? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: ? https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 ? That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. ? Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? ? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 99F5A5FD49864E6394348114D89E7551.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Sep 17 19:59:47 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 23:59:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,?Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the thruster....?If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & surrounding water will all be the same pressure.?When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out.?Alan On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble?was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases?as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings??Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 18 14:10:41 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:10:41 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard at one of our conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem wrapping their heads around this type of system? Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery Oil and then drained it all out but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put a small amount of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is in there and run it now just on air? Rick On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the > thruster.... > If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder > full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would > be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil > from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & > surrounding water will all be the same pressure. > When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two > nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air > compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out. > Alan > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are > talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the > bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head > around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external > pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on > everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the > bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the > bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 18 15:42:49 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:42:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1577182527.1876354.1631994169396@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,?there are lots of pros & cons for running oilas apposed to air.?I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating.?I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oilhas the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster.?Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters.?The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea water in.?On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors)?Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed.?Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though!?The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil in them so no harm in doing that.?Alan On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard?at one of our conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem wrapping their?heads around this type of system?Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery?Oil and then drained it all out but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put a small amount?of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is in there and run it now just on air??Rick ? On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the thruster....?If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & surrounding water will all be the same pressure.?When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out.?Alan On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble?was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases?as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings??Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 18 16:45:22 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:45:22 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <1577182527.1876354.1631994169396@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> <1577182527.1876354.1631994169396@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HI Alan Good point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then having an explosion due to the brushes sparking. I also am in a situation different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface temperature but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at 350' as well as any noticeable thermal clines. My Brother in law worked at a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls so I got it at cost and figured what the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising the coral reefs with the fantastic viz and not worrying about an uptake in nitrogen and sipping on a Pepsi! Rick On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > there are lots of pros & cons for running oil > as apposed to air. > I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the > coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can > also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, > perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! > Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating. > I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oil > has the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster. > Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be > advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters. > The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up > against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil > compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea > water in. > On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with > the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the > compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people > adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due > to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors) > Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed. > Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with > the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation > saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the > system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though! > The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil > in them so no harm in doing that. > Alan > > > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good > topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard at one of our > conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem > wrapping their heads around this type of system? > Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and > the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have > decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already > filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery Oil and then drained it all out > but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put > a small amount of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to > try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and > if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the > copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is > in there and run it now just on air? > Rick > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the > thruster.... > If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder > full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would > be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil > from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & > surrounding water will all be the same pressure. > When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two > nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air > compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out. > Alan > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are > talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the > bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head > around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external > pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on > everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the > bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the > bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Sep 18 17:08:00 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 21:08:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <9C2913B4-3C5F-4530-BC8E-8F8C5A1C80BB@yahoo.ca> <1120816076.1105553.1631795173260@mail.yahoo.com> <1111762864.1457353.1631871091459@mail.yahoo.com> <34182556.1735161.1631923187629@mail.yahoo.com> <1577182527.1876354.1631994169396@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,?it's going to be fantastic, and you've got a lot of water to explore. I have snorkeled off shore from Mauii (Molekino I think it was called) & some really great visibility.?How far off diving do you think you are??Alan On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:47:23 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HI AlanGood point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then having an explosion due to the brushes?sparking. I also am in a situation different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface temperature?but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at 350' as well as any noticeable?thermal?clines. My Brother in law worked at a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls?so I got it at cost and figured what?the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising?the coral reefs with the fantastic viz and not worrying?about an uptake in nitrogen and sipping on a Pepsi!Rick On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,?there are lots of pros & cons for running oilas apposed to air.?I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating.?I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oilhas the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster.?Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters.?The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea water in.?On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors)?Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed.?Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though!?The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil in them so no harm in doing that.?Alan On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard?at one of our conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem wrapping their?heads around this type of system?Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery?Oil and then drained it all out but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put a small amount?of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is in there and run it now just on air??Rick ? On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the thruster....?If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & surrounding water will all be the same pressure.?When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out.?Alan On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble?was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases?as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings??Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 19 12:01:42 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:01:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> References: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rick. Run it Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Rick, > it's going to be fantastic, and you've got a lot of water to explore. I have snorkeled off shore from Mauii (Molekino I think it was called) & some really great visibility. > How far off diving do you think you are? > Alan > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:47:23 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > HI Alan > Good point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then having an explosion due to the brushes sparking. I also am in a situation different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface temperature but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at 350' as well as any noticeable thermal clines. My Brother in law worked at a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls so I got it at cost and figured what the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising the coral reefs with the fantastic viz and not worrying about an uptake in nitrogen and sipping on a Pepsi! > Rick > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > there are lots of pros & cons for running oil > as apposed to air. > I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating. > I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oil > has the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster. > Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters. > The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea water in. > On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors) > Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed. > Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though! > The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil in them so no harm in doing that. > Alan > > > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard at one of our conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem wrapping their heads around this type of system? > Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery Oil and then drained it all out but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put a small amount of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is in there and run it now just on air? > Rick > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, > Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the thruster.... > If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & surrounding water will all be the same pressure. > When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out. > Alan > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings? > Rick > >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> ? >> Hi Rick, >> >> You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person. >> >> I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: >> >> https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 >> >> That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use an oil that is harmless. >> >> Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder. >> >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. >> Rick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 19 16:56:01 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:56:01 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, that is the most raised question when someone finds out that I am building a sub. I honestly don't have a clue as I have never done this before except the welding part which is easy for me to estimate as that's what i did for a living but when I look ahead on the plans and see an item coming up that needs to be done, some things take longer than I thought and some things are the opposite. All electrical systems are installed and have been checked except I haven't connected all the outside lites to my buck boosters, all my internal plumbing is done so once I re chase the threads on the flood nipple that is welded in the back dome, I will be ready to weld on the back dome and then I think things will pick up a lot faster again as I can then attach the back structural framing for the rear MBT, fabricate and install the bracket to hold the rear thruster, fab and install the steering linkage, mount and plumb both MBT's and finish painting the sub and then I can put her on the trailer to find my sweet spot for the tongue weight and then put the arm on that comes down over the front lifting eye and put my carpeted side guide on so when she comes down on the trailer as it is being pulled out, it will be centered, and attach a swinging arm that holds the spare tire like Dan Hycroft did,,,,,,,,so, to make a long story long, 6 months???? Are you guys going to the convention or are you going to do it via Zoom? I will do Zoom but not sure how it is gonna take place? can you help me with that? Rick On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 6:02 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick. Run it > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Rick, > it's going to be fantastic, and you've got a lot of water to explore. I > have snorkeled off shore from Mauii (Molekino I think it was called) & some > really great visibility. > How far off diving do you think you are? > Alan > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:47:23 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > HI Alan > Good point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then > having an explosion due to the brushes sparking. I also am in a situation > different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface > temperature but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on > the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from > the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that > measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at > 350' as well as any noticeable thermal clines. My Brother in law worked at > a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls so I got it at cost and > figured what the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work > with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept > thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising the coral reefs > with the fantastic viz and not worrying about an uptake in nitrogen and > sipping on a Pepsi! > Rick > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > there are lots of pros & cons for running oil > as apposed to air. > I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the > coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can > also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, > perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! > Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating. > I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oil > has the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster. > Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be > advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters. > The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up > against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil > compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea > water in. > On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with > the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the > compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people > adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due > to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors) > Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed. > Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with > the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation > saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the > system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though! > The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil > in them so no harm in doing that. > Alan > > > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good > topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard at one of our > conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem > wrapping their heads around this type of system? > Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and > the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have > decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already > filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery Oil and then drained it all out > but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put > a small amount of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to > try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and > if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the > copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is > in there and run it now just on air? > Rick > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the > thruster.... > If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder > full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would > be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil > from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & > surrounding water will all be the same pressure. > When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two > nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air > compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out. > Alan > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are > talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the > bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head > around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external > pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on > everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the > bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the > bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 19 18:05:17 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:05:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: References: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412431307.2090835.1632089117732@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,?Jon would be the one to ask about Zoom.?I am not sure whether he will be providing that or not.?I won't be going over. I don't know when I could get back to New Zealand if I did. You have to book a spot at an isolation facility & pay $3000 for the privilege of being locked up for 2 weeks.?Sounds like you are getting there with the?Sub.?If you are now going with air compensation; are you familiar with how to modify a second stage regulator for that purpose??BTW you can always swap between air & oil compensation by having enough hose going up vertical from the thruster that the oil can expand up without it being able to turn a bend and come out through the 2nd stage exhaust valve.?Alan On Monday, September 20, 2021, 08:58:04 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, that is the most raised question when someone finds out that I am building a sub. I honestly don't have a clue as I have never done this before except the welding part which is easy for me to estimate as that's what i did for a living but when I look ahead on the plans and see an item coming up that needs to be done, some things take longer than I thought and some things are the opposite. All electrical systems are installed and have been checked except I haven't connected all the outside lites to my buck boosters, all my internal plumbing is done so once I re chase the threads on the flood nipple that is welded in the back dome, I will be ready to weld on the back dome and then I think things will pick up a lot faster again as I can then attach the back structural framing?for the rear MBT, fabricate and install the bracket to hold the rear thruster, fab and install the steering linkage, mount and plumb both MBT's and finish painting the sub and then I can put her on the trailer to find my sweet spot for the tongue?weight and then put the arm on that comes down over the front lifting eye and put my carpeted side guide?on so when she comes down on the trailer as it is being pulled out, it will be centered, and attach a swinging arm that holds the spare tire like Dan Hycroft did,,,,,,,,so, to make a long story long, 6 months????Are you guys going to the convention or are you going to do it via Zoom? I will do Zoom but not sure how it is gonna take place? can you help me with that?Rick On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 6:02 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick. Run itHank Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Rick,?it's going to be fantastic, and you've got a lot of water to explore. I have snorkeled off shore from Mauii (Molekino I think it was called) & some really great visibility.?How far off diving do you think you are??Alan On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:47:23 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HI AlanGood point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then having an explosion due to the brushes?sparking. I also am in a situation different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface temperature?but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at 350' as well as any noticeable?thermal?clines. My Brother in law worked at a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls?so I got it at cost and figured what?the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising?the coral reefs with the fantastic viz and not worrying?about an uptake in nitrogen and sipping on a Pepsi!Rick On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,?there are lots of pros & cons for running oilas apposed to air.?I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating.?I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oilhas the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster.?Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters.?The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea water in.?On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors)?Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed.?Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though!?The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil in them so no harm in doing that.?Alan On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard?at one of our conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem wrapping their?heads around this type of system?Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery?Oil and then drained it all out but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put a small amount?of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is in there and run it now just on air??Rick ? On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the thruster....?If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & surrounding water will all be the same pressure.?When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out.?Alan On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the bubble?was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external pressure increases?as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings??Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on top of my drop weight.? Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the bubble is in the middle.? This way when the hose collapses it is in the middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug.? Or taper the plug. ? In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose.If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed.I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the bladder.I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a problem.? Maybe I am missing something.? If I were in salt water with expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder.? I like the squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location with multiple motors on it.I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes.Hank On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hankwould love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum?hose to the housing so it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't compress a liquid?so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" rings??Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head around this better so I can pick a method and go for it.?Are you going to the reunion?Rick On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded fitting in the housing.? You can drill and tap either end in most cases.? Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with the bolts etc.? I have a youtube video on how to do this.?I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose.? It is still a good idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft.Hank On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank.Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you are saying. How long is your vacuum?tube and I assume it comes out of the can but not back in? I woldn't?think a rubber hose could inflate enough to allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory "0" rings??Rick On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick.? I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison.? I use a length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft.? I intended to install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. ? I don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to nothing. ?? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hi Rick, You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for each person.? I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 That said, the larger?bladder was something I implemented just before selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to use?an oil that is harmless. Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a small independent cylinder.? Best,Alec?? On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. 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URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Sep 19 21:22:50 2021 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:22:50 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster bladders In-Reply-To: <1412431307.2090835.1632089117732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <284912158.1910501.1631999280482@mail.yahoo.com> <1412431307.2090835.1632089117732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan I sent out a request to Jon the other day so will wait to see if he got it. Thanks for your input and I'll keep ya posted as I go. Rick On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 12:06 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > Jon would be the one to ask about Zoom. > I am not sure whether he will be providing that or not. > I won't be going over. I don't know when I could get back to New Zealand > if I did. You have to book a spot at an isolation facility & pay $3000 for > the privilege of being locked up for 2 weeks. > Sounds like you are getting there with the > Sub. > If you are now going with air compensation; are you familiar with how to > modify a second stage regulator for that purpose? > BTW you can always swap between air & oil compensation by having enough > hose going up vertical from the thruster that the oil can expand up without > it being able to turn a bend and come out through the 2nd stage exhaust > valve. > Alan > > > On Monday, September 20, 2021, 08:58:04 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, that is the most raised question when someone finds out that I am > building a sub. I honestly don't have a clue as I have never done this > before except the welding part which is easy for me to estimate as that's > what i did for a living but when I look ahead on the plans and see an item > coming up that needs to be done, some things take longer than I thought and > some things are the opposite. All electrical systems are installed and have > been checked except I haven't connected all the outside lites to my buck > boosters, all my internal plumbing is done so once I re chase the threads > on the flood nipple that is welded in the back dome, I will be ready to > weld on the back dome and then I think things will pick up a lot faster > again as I can then attach the back structural framing for the rear MBT, > fabricate and install the bracket to hold the rear thruster, fab and > install the steering linkage, mount and plumb both MBT's and finish > painting the sub and then I can put her on the trailer to find my sweet > spot for the tongue weight and then put the arm on that comes down over the > front lifting eye and put my carpeted side guide on so when she comes down > on the trailer as it is being pulled out, it will be centered, and attach a > swinging arm that holds the spare tire like Dan Hycroft did,,,,,,,,so, to > make a long story long, 6 months???? > Are you guys going to the convention or are you going to do it via Zoom? I > will do Zoom but not sure how it is gonna take place? can you help me with > that? > Rick > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 6:02 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick. Run it > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Rick, > it's going to be fantastic, and you've got a lot of water to explore. I > have snorkeled off shore from Mauii (Molekino I think it was called) & some > really great visibility. > How far off diving do you think you are? > Alan > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 08:47:23 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > HI Alan > Good point about using a solvent to get the oil coating off but then > having an explosion due to the brushes sparking. I also am in a situation > different than most about the motors getting hot due to the ocean surface > temperature but I don't see me running them for any length of time while on > the surface as I will almost always have a mother ship that towes me from > the ramp to wherever I need to go. I installed a digital temp gauge that > measures the water so it will be interesting to see what the temp is at > 350' as well as any noticeable thermal clines. My Brother in law worked at > a place that sells nothing but gauges and controls so I got it at cost and > figured what the hell? I did a shore dive with an old friend I used to work > with offshore and it had been months since I had done that and I just kept > thinking what it would be like if I were in my sub cruising the coral reefs > with the fantastic viz and not worrying about an uptake in nitrogen and > sipping on a Pepsi! > Rick > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 9:43 AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > there are lots of pros & cons for running oil > as apposed to air. > I wouldn't put any solvent inside the housing in case it dissolves the > coating on the winding wire, or something like that. And as a motor can > also work as a generator, if you created a spark by turning the prop, > perhaps you could blow the thruster to bits if the solvent gasses ignite! > Some residue oil might be helpful lubricating. > I am using silicone oil, as marvel mystery oil > has the potential to harm plastics inside the thruster. > Oil compensating is better for cooling the motor, which may be > advantageous travelling on the surface in warm Hawaiian waters. > The motors coils in a brushed motor rotate in the centre & are not up > against the housing for direct cooling through the can. Also oil > compensation gives you a safety aspect (to a degree) if you get any sea > water in. > On the negative side, I've heard of thrusters dripping oil on land, with > the expansion and contraction of the motors & the height of the > compensating bladder. There is a small power loss. I have heard of people > adjusting the brushes on their motors to avoid lifting of the brushes due > to centrifugal force on the oil. (more of a problem on smaller motors) > Carbon from the brushes can blacken the oil & so it needs to be changed. > Air compensation is as you say, cleaner. You can see a leak. I spoke with > the guys that sell the semi-dry Fugu sub, and they prefer air compensation > saying that if they see an air leak they don't mind, as it is a sign the > system is working. They were mainly operating in fresh water though! > The minn kotas are designed to work on boats in surface water with no oil > in them so no harm in doing that. > Alan > > > > On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 06:12:45 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thank's Hank and Allen for your explanations. This would maybe be a good > topic for someone to go over in detail on a chalkboard at one of our > conventions if there are others out there that are having the same problem > wrapping their heads around this type of system? > Here's another question for ya..... based on these recent discussions and > the messes I have made on my shop floor, table and myself, I think I have > decided to go with no oil at all and just go with air, but, I have already > filled one thruster with the Marvel Mystery Oil and then drained it all out > but everything inside still has a coating of the oil on it so should I put > a small amount of a solvent inside the oil fill hole and slosh it around to > try and get the small amount of oil that is left inside the housing out and > if so, what would be safe to use without harming the coating that is on the > copper windings or, is it OK to just leave what small amount of oil that is > in there and run it now just on air? > Rick > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 2:01 PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Just a further explanation as to why you don't need all the air out of the > thruster.... > If the thruster was 1/4 full of air, and you had a large external bladder > full of oil attached; if you descended to 300ft, the air in the motor would > be compressed to 1/12 th its original volume and just be replaced by oil > from the flexible bladder. The bladder, oil and air in the thruster & > surrounding water will all be the same pressure. > When people used to wrap a tube around the thruster and attach it to two > nipples, there was very little volume in the tube to compensate for the air > compressing, & so it was critical to get every bit of air out. > Alan > > On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 05:45:19 AM GMT+12, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I forgot your thrusters don't rotate like mine. I assume you are > talking about the Id of the hose being damaged as it collapses if the > bubble was at the end? I am still having a hard time wrapping my head > around having any air in the system as I would think that when the external > pressure increases as you descend, the extra pressure would be pushing on > everything evenly and the only things that are weak enough to give are the > bubble in a bladder or hose and the extra pressure trying to squeeze the > bubble going past the two factory shaft O rings? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, my rubber lines are currently flapping in the breeze sitting on > top of my drop weight. Just tie them up, with an arc in the hose, so the > bubble is in the middle. This way when the hose collapses it is in the > middle, not at the end where it could be damaged by the edge of the plug. > Or taper the plug. In my opinion, an air bubble is good in a hose. > If you have a soft bladder, you can work to get rid of every bubble of air > if you want because the bladder will expand and contract as needed. > I see no point to worry about it, particularly with the bladder because > the bubble will simple squeeze to nothing at the highest point of the > bladder. > I am trying to think of a reason why an air bubble outside the motor is a > problem. Maybe I am missing something. If I were in salt water with > expensive motors, i would try to have a small soft bladder. I like the > squeeze ball for individual locations, and an air bag for central location > with multiple motors on it. > I won't be travelling this fall other than local lakes. > Hank > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 11:31:26 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank > would love a picture. Do you tie the 1' of vacuum hose to the housing so > it's not flopping in the breeze? I thought I had heard conflicting ideas > about, "make sure you get all the air out of the thruster and bladder" and > others saying that they have a little air left in the bladder to allow for > the hot oil expansion so I am confused. My thinking (which is limited) is > that you can't have any air in anything because as you know, you can't > compress a liquid so any air would compress and push out the factory "0" > rings? > Shoot me a picture if it's not too much trouble. Need to wrap my head > around this better so I can pick a method and go for it. > Are you going to the reunion? > Rick > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:27 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, the vacuum tube is about a foot long and comes out a threaded > fitting in the housing. You can drill and tap either end in most cases. > Choose the location well to make sure the fitting does not interfere with > the bolts etc. I have a youtube video on how to do this. > I can email you a picture of the motor with the hose. It is still a good > idea to have a bladder, just be sure it is real soft. > Hank > > On Wednesday, September 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank. > Do you happen to have a good picture of your set up? Not clear what you > are saying. How long is your vacuum tube and I assume it comes out of the > can but not back in? I woldn't think a rubber hose could inflate enough to > allow the heated oil to expand it enough before pushing out the two factory > "0" rings? > Rick > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 3:31 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick. I have oil filled at the moment because they jettison. I use a > length of vacuum hose from a car engine because it is soft. I intended to > install a car suspension air bag and connect all the motors to that. I > don?t worry much about an air bubble because it will just compress to > nothing. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 7:18 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hi Rick, > > You'll find people here who love oil compensation, and others who love > air. They both work, so I guess it's just a matter of what has worked for > each person. > > I used oil initially. The method was to put two 90 degree nipples in the > motor can, and attach about a foot of plastic hose to them. To fill, you > disconnect the top nipple and add oil through the hose until it comes out > the top nipple. The hose wraps around the can and with that extra length is > supposed to act as a bladder. I found it worked, but only until I started > diving my K250 to 250 feet. Then, I was getting internal build-up of > pressure in the motors. In the end, I figured what was going on was that > the compression of the hose was insufficient for the thermal contraction > between the surface, where I'd filled the motors, and the very cold ambient > temperature at 250 feet. At depth, water was forcing its way past the shaft > seals, and then the seals would keep the motors pressurized as I rose. My > solution was to go to a larger bladder, namely this: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=squeeze+bottles&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS807US807&sxsrf=AOaemvLRC6ixUOHC7wIDhQcAL78ShVP-Sw:1631711091091&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_9a_hYHzAhUgF1kFHRK2AW0Q1TV6BQgBEKkC&biw=1536&bih=664#spd=4605806885737196691 > > That said, the larger bladder was something I implemented just before > selling that sub, so never got to dive it. It was also always a problem > getting every last bubble out. I'd spend ages doing that, then come back > the next day and find a bubble in the hose. I was never able to solve that > issue, and I think the only way would have been to assemble the motor in a > bucket of oil. The other problem was that if there was an issue, such as > the over-pressurization one above, my sub created an oil slick. That is NOT > good, and can attract the wrong sort of attention even if you were to > use an oil that is harmless. > > Now I use air compensation. So far, so good. On my first dive with the > mechanical arm, I noticed bubbles coming from a hose when I extended the > arm. The bubbles would cease when I retracted the arm. Closer examination > showed a nick in the hose, which got pinched closed when the arm was > retracted. The beauty of air is that if there's a leak, you can see and > trace it immediately. With oil, I'd have had a small slick but no idea > where it was coming from. Also, it worked well in the sense that no water > entered the arm. I have a shutoff valve, so that a leak won't drain the > sub's air supply, or another way would be to supply the air comp with a > small independent cylinder. > > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I am re thinking what to use for my oil expansion bladder. Would love to > hear from everyone who chose to go with an oil filled thrusters on what > they used and how they liked it. I remember someone saying that they used a > squeeze ball gas tank primer which I like because it is small but I just > spoke with someone who didn?t use a bladder and had never had a problem. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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