From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 01:26:07 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:26:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] publicity In-Reply-To: References: <1405947793.1638830.1592357911085@mail.yahoo.com> <248637538.1821320.1592403123825@mail.yahoo.com> <966681154.304310.1592417724134@mail.yahoo.com> <907362031.125870.1592491114591@mail.yahoo.com> <1178355918.886512.1592682299273@mail.yahoo.com> <1774301674.1951742.1592849715879@mail.yahoo.com> <1637174022.268966.1593523231051@mail.yahoo.com> <1815286635.78870.1593560011545@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rick, another option would be for one of the Psubbers to record it & put it up on Facebook. Cheers Alan > On 1/07/2020, at 3:35 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I just asked one of the producers if I could get a full unedited copy burnt onto a CD and he said that that wouldn't be possible as the production company owns the wrights and footage so I asked him if I could get a finished edited version after it was shown on TV and he said that he would check into it. I would probably need Jon's help or someone that knew how to do that as that is way above my pay grade but I'll try. > Rick > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:38 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, >> congratulations be good if you could get it put up on the Facebook site when it comes >> out otherwise I won't be able to see it down in Covid free New Zealand! >> Alan >> >> >>> On 1/07/2020, at 12:40 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I hope so, they wanted me to have the hard hat on with the faceplate closed when Jeff first came on camera and then I was to open the faceplace and say "Aloha Jeff, how are you?" and then take it off and put it back on the stand beside me to continue from there which I think was real hookey but that's what they wanted so we went with it. >>> Rick >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 1:34 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Very cool, Rick. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 09:22:30 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Rick, that is really cool! >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 29, 2020, 8:03:14 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Well guy's >>>> I did the taping segment with Jeff Foxworthy last Friday and he showed a lot of interest in the sub even though the show was suspose to be about getting an old Navy hard hat appraised. We talked for about a half an hour and he asked me if I could undo the camera and give him a tour of the sub which I did. I was able to mention the group and the name of the web site but they are going to edit it down to a 5 minute segment so who knows if it will make it or not. It will air in August so I'll let you guy's know when I know. He told me that he wanted to let him know when it was done so he could take a ride in it but I think he was probably only saying that for the audience and a laugh but who knows. I would love to take him for a ride but don't want to subject myself to all the liability. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:13 AM Rick Patton wrote: >>>> Mahalo! >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 8:16 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> facebook.com/groups/PSUBS >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 22, 2020, 01:51:30 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> FYI, I tested the subcon fittings yesterday that had a 150 psi rating to 400 psi as that is as far as my gauge would go with no cable extrusion at all. This was based on using a fitting on both sides of the penetraitor. >>>> PS: Jon, I don't have a FB page but my wife does so we tried to find the Psubs FB page with no luck for some reason. What are we suspose to enter to find it? >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 9:45 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Anything I could add would come from fireside reminiscing on George's part, and crawl throughs on the sub itself. Be glad to chip in wherever I can. >>>> Vance >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> Sent: Sat, Jun 20, 2020 2:47 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] publicity >>>> >>>> >>>> Vance, your memory is excellent. I opened up the documentation last night and started going through it again. I need to put a timeline together since many of the documents are scattered chronologically, but as I said earlier, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't a good business relationship and in the end everything just fell apart. I've got some interesting pictures of some early subs/experiments, also original negatives and even a few original Ektachrome slides (remember those??) of the K600 being hoisted by a crane. I'm tempted to create a K600 archive to memorialize the project on the website but I'm not sure anyone else is really interested in the history. I wonder how your memory corresponds to what I am seeing in the documents and if there are any details you might be able to fill in. >>>> >>>> An outline: >>>> 2/19/76 - George Kittredge and SUB SERVICE of Alesund Norway represented by Robert Hartnett, and Leiv Busaet, enter into a contract for "...development of a small submarine having a maximum operating depth of six hundred (600) feet, to be designed for use in the oil industry or such other uses as may be profitable to SUB SERVICE and adaptable by KITTREDGE. This submarine is known as the K-600 series submarine and shall include the current prototype K-600 and such modifications as are approved by KITTREDGE". >>>> >>>> Interestingly, SUB SERVICE was not an incorporated business at this time with Hartnett and Busaet signing the contract in their individual capacities. The contract was to be adopted by SUB SERVICE after incorporation. Initial payment was $30,000 (equivalent to $130,000 today) and he did not receive the balance until December 1980. Kittredge wanted certification by ABS, SUB SERVICE insisted on Det Norske Veritas (now DNV-GL). However Veritas appears to have been difficult to work with given some letters I have between Kittredge and Hartnett. According to those letters Veritas was slow to respond to approval of plans and neither party had confidence that Veritas had enough experience with submarines to properly certify the vessel. At one point Kittredge traveled to Oslo Norway and met directly with Veritas engineers and there is talk from Hartnett about Kittredge having to educate them in how to certify a submarine. This must be why they ended up with Lloyds although I haven't seen any documents specifically addressing the change to Lloyds. >>>> >>>> 3/1/79 - Kittredge had a contract written to license manufacturing of the K-600 to SUB SERVICE anywhere in the world except USA. It looks to me like this was initiated by SUB SERVICE, whom were seeking to partner with Offshore Inspection Ltd of Glasgow, Scotland, to manufacture, market, sell, and maintain K-600 submarines within UK and Ireland. According to the contract, SUB SERVICE would produce ten K-600 vessels per year, for three years. Kittredge would receive 20% of the construction costs for each submarine as well as an hourly wage for writing and producing operation and maintenance manuals. SUB SERVICE was seeking a 50% profit margin on each submarine. Stipulations, and if you knew George you likely aren't surprised by this, were that each manufacturing license required approval by Kittredege "...in writing on a submarine by submarine basis" and "...no modification whatsoever of the submarine known as the K-600 series without the consent in writing of KITTREDGE". Even though this is a contract created by Kittredge in response to a business proposal by SUB SERVICE, I do not have a signed copy of the contract. And since no additional K-600's were ever produced I think we can conclude that he either never signed the contract or never gave approval for a license. I suspect the former simply because by this time the submarine was physically complete but he still had not received the balance payment for the vessel. My guess is he wasn't going to sign anything until he got final payment for the existing K-600 but had the contract drawn up as a carrot. >>>> >>>> 6/21/79 - The K-600 is approved for certification by Lloyds. >>>> >>>> 12/1/79 - SUB SERVICE tells Kittredge they have a buyer from England for the K-600 and two people want to travel to Maine to see the sub in operation. The buyers arrive 12/10/79 and on 12/11/79 Kittredge launches the K-600 in Penobscot Bay and demos the submarine. The men tell Kittredge they will be purchasing it from SUB SERVICE for $125,000 and leave confident that the transaction will proceed. Obviously it doesn't, however there's no documentation on who these folks represented or why the sale ultimately failed. >>>> 12/11/80 - After Many letters of promised dates for the payment balance and many letters to lawyers on both sides, SUB SERVICE takes delivery from Kittredge about 18 months after it was ready. At the same time, SUB SERVICE along with Kittredge met with Bath Iron Works in Maine and reached an agreement whereby BIW would manufacture 10 submarine basic hulls which Kittredge would finish and then ship to Europe. It appears this never developed into a contract or production. >>>> About a week later Kittredge wrote SUB SERVICE asking what their intention was for the other ten submarines they agreed to purchase in their original 1976 contract. Kittredge added that he was willing to release them from the agreement if they would mutually release him from the agreement. I have the release document that Kittredge had drawn up, not have a signed copy of it. In 1982-83 SUB SERVICE had internal strife and Hartnett informs Kittredge he is taking legal action against some of the other owners over misplaced funds. It's at this point I assume the company eventually failed. Whether because of the release agreement or the failure of the company, no other K-600's were built. >>>> As late as 1983, Hartnett was still writing Kittredge about potential K-900 and K-1000, seemingly ready to strike out on his own. Kittredge responded at one point that he was 65 and retired. >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 6/18/2020 10:38 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Very cool. And I'm pretty sure George thought the Norwegian owners were dreaming. Their idea was to put a sub on every rig complex in the North Sea, and operate them with only small boats for comms and support. They could have asked me. I'd have told them a little about winter gales and 5-8 meter seas. Aside from a bad idea at the start, what really happened was that ROV technology caught up. The oil companies and engineers liked people in subs, but the lawyers and insurance companies did not. George had a heck of a time reacquiring the 600. It got hung up in legalese in Norway and was going to be junked, or just stuck in a corner somewhere and forgotten. It was and is (arguably) the nicest sub George ever built, so I was happy to see it saved, and very pleased indeed when you snagged it. >>>> Vance >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 08:02:16 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:02:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Almost ready to dive -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2375.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2514530 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 08:02:45 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:02:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2372.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 603835 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 08:33:06 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 08:33:06 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does it have a name yet? Steve On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:05 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Almost ready to dive > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 08:56:09 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:56:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] publicity In-Reply-To: References: <1405947793.1638830.1592357911085@mail.yahoo.com> <248637538.1821320.1592403123825@mail.yahoo.com> <966681154.304310.1592417724134@mail.yahoo.com> <907362031.125870.1592491114591@mail.yahoo.com> <1178355918.886512.1592682299273@mail.yahoo.com> <1774301674.1951742.1592849715879@mail.yahoo.com> <1637174022.268966.1593523231051@mail.yahoo.com> <1815286635.78870.1593560011545@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539173402.899602.1593608169161@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I personally don't have means to record my TV but if they come through with a CD I can get it off that. I have learned to make any such demands prior to cooperating with the press or productions like this.? Afterwards, a lot of these producers seem to disappear.? A few years ago I was asked to help provide information on small subs to some TV production.? I told them up front that I would help on the condition they put "Thanks to PSUBS.ORG" in the closing credits.? They did...at 100 mph.? If I had blinked I would have missed it.? lol? :) Jon On Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 11:37:31 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I just asked one of the producers if I could get a full unedited?copy burnt onto a CD and he said that that wouldn't be possible as the production company owns the wrights and footage so I asked him if I could get a finished edited version after it was shown on TV and he said that he would check into it. I would probably need Jon's help or someone that knew how to do that as that is way above my pay grade but I'll try.Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 10:23:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:23:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, that looks really nice! I'm particularly interested to see what you think of the cylinder optics. I recall comments by two very experienced people who've tried cylinders. One said it was the best thing ever, and the other that it was hard to get used to and made him nauseous. You'll be the deciding majority vote. Best, Alec On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:04 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Almost ready to dive > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 12:06:57 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:06:57 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks great Hank. On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 15:24, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, that looks really nice! I'm particularly interested to see what you > think of the cylinder optics. I recall comments by two very experienced > people who've tried cylinders. One said it was the best thing ever, and the > other that it was hard to get used to and made him nauseous. You'll be the > deciding majority vote. > > Best, > Alec > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:04 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Almost ready to dive >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 12:28:31 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:28:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 13:51:38 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 07:51:38 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can't wait to see her in action! Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:07 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Looks great Hank. > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 15:24, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hank, that looks really nice! I'm particularly interested to see what you >> think of the cylinder optics. I recall comments by two very experienced >> people who've tried cylinders. One said it was the best thing ever, and the >> other that it was hard to get used to and made him nauseous. You'll be the >> deciding majority vote. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:04 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Almost ready to dive >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 1 13:55:26 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 07:55:26 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> Message-ID: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 08:00:31 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:00:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1259939088.1475333.1593691231375@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick,I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma. ?It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. ?I stripped parts off it to use in other projects. ?When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem. ?I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet ?at a local lake. ?I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. ?It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. ?In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. ? Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K.Hank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on!Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good, Hank.? Looking forward to seeing it under water. ? Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 08:09:09 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:09:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <105011928.864564.1593691749513@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,?Sitting in the shop the cylinder seems good. ?In the test pool from 2013, it seems good. ?Having said that, I store the cylinder in the apartment above my shop and when I carry it, I put it over my shoulders with my head inside the cylinder. ?I noticed last time coming down the stairs, it was making me dizzy to look through it. ?It was on a steep ?angle so it was looking through a curve on an angle. ?I will be diving in the test pool next week and doing life support practice under water. ?I will know more then. On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 6:33:43 AM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does it have a name yet? Steve On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:05 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Almost ready to dive_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 08:10:11 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:10:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <808100472.889345.1593604937152.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <808100472.889345.1593604937152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <573806316.1468904.1593691811020@mail.yahoo.com> Steve, no name yet,, any ideas welcome. ?NOT, Cheap Diver lolHank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 6:33:43 AM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does it have a name yet? Steve On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:05 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Almost ready to dive_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 08:43:34 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:43:34 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold has new side MBTs Message-ID: Last summer at Flathead Lake, Montana I had my first live exposure to Nekton Gamma and her side mounted MBTs. The boat was there as part of the Inner Space Science expedition and got to climb in and outside her. Converted 100 lbs propane tanks were used by Hank Pronk to add surface stability and ease of towing. An idea was formed to convert a K350 in similar ways. Like all my plans, rounding up the parts and finding time to make them is a slower process than the dream. Here's the project thus far. With the help of Mark Ragan and with Alec Smyth welding up the pre fabricated bits, earlier this week the tanks were completed and attached. After wiring up the solenoids and attaching the airlines it will be time for testing. If all works according to plan, the front MBT will come off and more ports added to the bow endcap. Plan to build a deck across the aft end. https://www.instagram.com/p/CCI8V9SBbEg/?igshid=gz6argu383ob Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 13:09:10 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:09:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1259939088.1475333.1593691231375@mail.yahoo.com> References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> <1259939088.1475333.1593691231375@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand? Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought > Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I > stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self > isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from > under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability > problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local > lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning > out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I > could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am > confident it can be built for under 10K. > Hank > > On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working > depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! > Rick > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 13:30:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 17:30:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> <1259939088.1475333.1593691231375@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1553319879.1644172.1593711055098@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. ?I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. ?Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) ?The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. ?Okay Alec, as it submerges. ? ?After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's. ?The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper. ?If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. ?Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HankWhen you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly?negative?and lower it by hand?? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand??Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma.? It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues.? I stripped parts off it to use in other projects.? When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem.? I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet ?at a local lake.? I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet.? It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build.? In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. ? Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K.Hank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on!Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good, Hank.? Looking forward to seeing it under water. ? Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 13:54:12 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:54:12 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1553319879.1644172.1593711055098@mail.yahoo.com> References: <861564848.886948.1593604965598.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <861564848.886948.1593604965598@mail.yahoo.com> <002a01d64fc4$a976d550$fc647ff0$@telus.net> <1259939088.1475333.1593691231375@mail.yahoo.com> <1553319879.1644172.1593711055098@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with? Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. I just vent all the > air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. Then I > lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) > The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. > Okay Alec, as it submerges. After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the > rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air > into the MBT's. The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it > hits a stopper. If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the > surface. > Hank > > On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it > slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up > or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too > heavy to pull her back up by hand? > Rick > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought > Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I > stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self > isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from > under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability > problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local > lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning > out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I > could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am > confident it can be built for under 10K. > Hank > > On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working > depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! > Rick > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 16:08:11 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 14:08:11 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT. No regulators needed. I just send air at 2000 psi to the MBT Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with? > Rick > >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. Okay Alec, as it submerges. After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's. The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper. If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank >> When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand? >> Rick >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Rick, >> I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! >> Rick >> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 16:09:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 14:09:03 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT. No regulators needed. I just send air at 2000 psi to the MBT > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >> ? >> Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with? >> Rick >> >>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. Okay Alec, as it submerges. After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's. The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper. If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank >>> When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand? >>> Rick >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Rick, >>> I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! >>> Rick >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 16:45:06 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 10:45:06 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Hank, How can you support the negative weight of the sub and also activate the valve for the hp Co2 with the same 1/4" line? Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line > activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT. No regulators needed. I > just send air at 2000 psi to the MBT > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside of the sub with an > valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi > over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just > the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line > that you are lowering and raising the sub with? > Rick > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. I just vent all the >> air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. Then I >> lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) >> The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. >> Okay Alec, as it submerges. After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the >> rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air >> into the MBT's. The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it >> hits a stopper. If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the >> surface. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank >> When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it >> slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up >> or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too >> heavy to pull her back up by hand? >> Rick >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, >> I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought >> Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I >> stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self >> isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from >> under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability >> problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local >> lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning >> out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I >> could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am >> confident it can be built for under 10K. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working >> depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! >> Rick >> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via >> Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 18:50:02 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:50:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1194473321.1819096.1593730096959@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> <1194473321.1819096.1593730096959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1075054372.1818976.1593730202300@mail.yahoo.com> the line does not support the sub, it sinks to the bottom of the lake.Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 4:48:16 PM MDT, hank pronk wrote: when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbtHank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 2:45:33 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,How can you support the negative?weight of the sub and also activate the valve for the hp Co2 with the same 1/4" line?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT.? No regulators needed. I just send air at 2000 psi to the MBTHank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside?of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub.? I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big.? Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) ?The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks.? Okay Alec, as it submerges. ? ?After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's.? The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper.? If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. ?Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HankWhen you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly?negative?and lower it by hand?? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand??Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma.? It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues.? I stripped parts off it to use in other projects.? When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem.? I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet ?at a local lake.? I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet.? It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build.? In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. ? Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K.Hank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on!Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good, Hank.? Looking forward to seeing it under water. ? Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 18:48:16 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:48:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1194473321.1819096.1593730096959@mail.yahoo.com> when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbtHank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 2:45:33 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,How can you support the negative?weight of the sub and also activate the valve for the hp Co2 with the same 1/4" line?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT.? No regulators needed. I just send air at 2000 psi to the MBTHank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside?of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub.? I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big.? Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) ?The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks.? Okay Alec, as it submerges. ? ?After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's.? The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper.? If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. ?Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HankWhen you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly?negative?and lower it by hand?? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand??Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma.? It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues.? I stripped parts off it to use in other projects.? When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem.? I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet ?at a local lake.? I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet.? It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build.? In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. ? Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K.Hank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on!Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good, Hank.? Looking forward to seeing it under water. ? Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 18:55:10 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 12:55:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1075054372.1818976.1593730202300@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> <1194473321.1819096.1593730096959@mail.yahoo.com> <1075054372.1818976.1593730202300@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: so you just let it free fall to the bottom in an uncontrolled decent? When you blew the tanks on the bottom and she started heading up, it didn't burp a lot of air when it hit the surface and go back down? Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:50 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > the line does not support the sub, it sinks to the bottom of the lake. > Hank > > On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 4:48:16 PM MDT, hank pronk < > hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote: > > > when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbt > Hank > > On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 2:45:33 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > How can you support the negative weight of the sub and also activate the > valve for the hp Co2 with the same 1/4" line? > Rick > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line > activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT. No regulators needed. I > just send air at 2000 psi to the MBT > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside of the sub with an > valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi > over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just > the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line > that you are lowering and raising the sub with? > Rick > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub. I just vent all the > air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big. Then I > lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) > The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks. > Okay Alec, as it submerges. After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the > rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air > into the MBT's. The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it > hits a stopper. If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the > surface. > Hank > > On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > When you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it > slightly negative and lower it by hand? did you have drop weights set up > or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too > heavy to pull her back up by hand? > Rick > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought > Gamma. It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues. I > stripped parts off it to use in other projects. When we decided to self > isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from > under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability > problem. I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet at a local > lake. I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet. It is turning > out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build. In fact, I am confident I > could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. Also, I am > confident it can be built for under 10K. > Hank > > On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working > depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on! > Rick > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks good, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it under water. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 18:57:50 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 15:57:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20200702155750.E25CD834@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 19:26:24 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:26:24 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20200702155750.E25CD834@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20200702155750.E25CD834@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: Will this do Brian? > On 3/07/2020, at 10:57 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Need a picture Hank ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:48:16 +0000 (UTC) > > when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbt > Hank > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 58386 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 19:55:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 23:55:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <0D0F5A80-84B0-46DF-A79D-DD9A5D0E30FA@yahoo.ca> <1194473321.1819096.1593730096959@mail.yahoo.com> <1075054372.1818976.1593730202300@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418337513.1843965.1593734113891@mail.yahoo.com> You only pull on the rope till you feel the sub lift off the bottom. ?I have enclosed MBT's so no burping.?Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 4:55:38 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: so you just let it free fall to the bottom in an uncontrolled decent? When you blew the tanks on the bottom and she started heading up, it didn't burp a lot of air when it hit the surface and go back down?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:50 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: the line does not support the sub, it sinks to the bottom of the lake.Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 4:48:16 PM MDT, hank pronk wrote: when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbtHank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 2:45:33 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,How can you support the negative?weight of the sub and also activate the valve for the hp Co2 with the same 1/4" line?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 10:10 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes the air source is a hp CO2 tank at 2000 psi Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 2:08 PM, hank pronk wrote: ?Rick. I lower the sub on a 1/4 inch poly yellow rope. That same line activates the ball valve to send air to the MBT.? No regulators needed. I just send air at 2000 psi to the MBTHank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, is the air source a scuba tank on the outside?of the sub with an valve to the second stage port of the first stage so you would get 150 psi over bottom? and is the 1/4" line that floats and unspools freely for just the valve to the air source if you need it? and do you have a larger line that you are lowering and raising the sub with?Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 7:32 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, my system uses an air supply to raise the sub.? I just vent all the air with hose extensions to one location incase the waves are big.? Then I lower the sub maybe 10 to 20 lbs negative on a small nylon rope (1\4 inch) ?The rope is on a floating spool, so it just feeds out as the sub sinks.? Okay Alec, as it submerges. ? ?After one hr on the bottom, I pull on the rope, witch is connected to a spring loaded ball valve that releases air into the MBT's.? The rope can only pull the valve to full open, and then it hits a stopper.? If something is wrong, the rope can pull the sub up to the surface. ?Hank On Thursday, July 2, 2020, 11:09:37 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HankWhen you pressure tested it in the lake, did you just make it slightly?negative?and lower it by hand?? did you have drop weights set up or a lift bag you could fill it she started taking on water and was too heavy to pull her back up by hand??Rick On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 2:01 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick,I built this sub originally in 2013 and put it in storage when I bought Gamma.? It was in the testing stage and had some stability issues.? I stripped parts off it to use in other projects.? When we decided to self isolate, I needed a project to help pass time, so I pulled it out from under the tarp and made a big modification to it, to solve the stability problem.? I pressure tested it a couple weeks ago to 450 feet ?at a local lake.? I intend to pressure test it again, but to 600 feet.? It is turning out to be a very easy and cheap sub to build.? In fact, I am confident I could build a new one in one month, it is that simple. ? Also, I am confident it can be built for under 10K.Hank On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 11:55:52 AM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Has this one been in the water or depth tested yet? What is it's working depth? Hard to keep track as you have so many projects going on!Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:29 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good, Hank.? Looking forward to seeing it under water. ? Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 5:03 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 21:06:58 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 18:06:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20200702180658.E25C3880@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 58386 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 2 21:55:30 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:55:30 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20200702180658.E25C3880@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20200702180658.E25C3880@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2E33C711-143F-445B-A668-A264CAC1DF48@yahoo.com> Brian, the handlebar foot steering has merits! Alan > On 3/07/2020, at 1:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Is that your new sub Alan? > > Hank, do you have two lines? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:26:24 +1200 > > Will this do Brian? > > > On 3/07/2020, at 10:57 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Need a picture Hank ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 22:48:16 +0000 (UTC) > > when I pull on the line, it opens a valve to let air into the mbt > Hank > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 12:02:26 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 06:02:26 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck Message-ID: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> I had some Teak laying around from a job I did years ago and glad I kept the left overs as I knew I?d have a use for it someday. Rick -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2369.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 77351 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 12:37:16 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:37:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> References: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> Message-ID: <475C1FF1-AFDB-45A5-9851-56A7DC83B586@gmail.com> Nicely done! > On Jul 3, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?I had some Teak laying around from a job I did years ago and glad I kept the left overs as I knew I?d have a use for it someday. > Rick > > > > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 12:42:27 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 10:42:27 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <475C1FF1-AFDB-45A5-9851-56A7DC83B586@gmail.com> References: <475C1FF1-AFDB-45A5-9851-56A7DC83B586@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B596BA5-8541-40B5-BA27-16E21D80DCA8@yahoo.ca> That looks good and functional Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 3, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Nicely done! > > > >> On Jul 3, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?I had some Teak laying around from a job I did years ago and glad I kept the left overs as I knew I?d have a use for it someday. >> Rick >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 12:46:23 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 16:46:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> References: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is that what they call "pressure treated" wood? ;-) Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 3, 2020, 09:02, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I had some Teak laying around from a job I did years ago and glad I kept the left overs as I knew I?d have a use for it someday. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2369.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 77351 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 13:30:51 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 17:30:51 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck Message-ID: Very nice deck! Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 13:34:29 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:34:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks guy's. Since all my diving will be in the ocean, I am hoping that I will be able to switch people out while offshore and this will make it much safer. Rick On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 7:31 AM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Very nice deck! > > Brian > > Get Outlook for Android > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 14:02:23 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:02:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: References: <5EAE6DCC-90DF-4763-BDA8-AF189AA3DD87@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nice deck! Always good to recycle. On Fri, Jul 3, 2020, 9:47 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Is that what they call "pressure treated" wood? > > ;-) > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 3, 2020, 09:02, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I had some Teak laying around from a job I did years ago and glad I kept > the left overs as I knew I?d have a use for it someday. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 14:44:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 08:44:33 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck Message-ID: <498F2180-95E3-469C-A423-9952D25AD920@gmail.com> Here?s a shot of the front after I put Teak oil on. Be interested to see how the wood and finish fare after being subjected to salt water and pressure. Rick -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2435.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 107536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 15:15:31 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:15:31 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <498F2180-95E3-469C-A423-9952D25AD920@gmail.com> References: <498F2180-95E3-469C-A423-9952D25AD920@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to consider adding a clear topcoat with some anti-skid texture. Walnut shell or something to add grip on the wet deck? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 3, 2020, 11:44, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Here?s a shot of the front after I put Teak oil on. Be interested to see how the wood and finish fare after being subjected to salt water and pressure. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2435.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 107536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 15:56:22 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 09:56:22 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: References: <498F2180-95E3-469C-A423-9952D25AD920@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah the slip and fall factor did cross my mind. I light sanded the planks to remove the marks left by the saw teeth when I ripped them but left them as rough as I could for traction and not getting splinters so we'll have to wait and see. also be interesting to see how it effects the calculated bouancy and freeboard. Rick On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:16 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > You might want to consider adding a clear topcoat with some anti-skid > texture. Walnut shell or something to add grip on the wet deck? > > Sean > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 3, 2020, 11:44, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Here?s a shot of the front after I put Teak oil on. Be interested to see > how the wood and finish fare after being subjected to salt water and > pressure. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 17:38:53 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 14:38:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck Message-ID: <20200703143853.E25C960D@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 18:16:51 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 12:16:51 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <20200703143853.E25C960D@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20200703143853.E25C960D@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: I hope with the roughness of the Teak that I oiled it unstead varnished it, I will be OK but if not it would be nice to find something that doesn't hide the beauty of the oiled Teak. Rick On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:39 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > There is a synthetic product that is a non skid additive made by > Interlux. It's called Intergrip. I just used it on my sailboat, works > good, surprisingly you don't need all that much, 4 -6 oz per quart. No to > abrasive on your feet ! > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck > Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:15:31 +0000 > > You might want to consider adding a clear topcoat with some anti-skid > texture. Walnut shell or something to add grip on the wet deck? > > Sean > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 3, 2020, 11:44, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Here?s a shot of the front after I put Teak oil on. Be interested to see > how the wood and finish fare after being subjected to salt water and > pressure. > Rick > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 3 21:29:07 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 18:29:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck Message-ID: <20200703182907.E25C4A5C@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 4 13:45:40 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 10:45:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters Message-ID: Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. The questions are: 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be fabbing a grill cover. 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the prop? You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. I appreciate the feedback David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image8220114605302593047.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 254026 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image2305795721106096160.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 282562 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image5819631333043158817.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 327020 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image6450124989922013409.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 243996 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 4 14:59:01 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 14:59:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. Best, Alec On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. > This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the > attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. > The questions are: > 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be > fabbing a grill cover. > 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster > tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs > vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the > prop? > You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never > know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. > I appreciate the feedback > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 4 15:55:01 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 12:55:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement issues. David On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of > that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it > vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out > the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a > little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But > the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. > > Best, > Alec > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical >> thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to >> mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go >> thru the wing. The questions are: >> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be >> fabbing a grill cover. >> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the >> thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally >> vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the >> prop? >> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never >> know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >> I appreciate the feedback >> David >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 4 16:33:00 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 08:33:00 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> David, I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as it will protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the horizontal Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate a bit of that effect. Alan > On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement issues. > David > >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi Dave, >> >> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. The questions are: >>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be fabbing a grill cover. >>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the prop? >>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>> I appreciate the feedback >>> David >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 5 02:56:35 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 23:56:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush grill will look better. David On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area > to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as it > will > protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. > You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the > horizontal > Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate > a bit of that effect. > Alan > > On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it > out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill > which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of > the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement > issues. > David > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of >> that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it >> vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out >> the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a >> little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But >> the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical >>> thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to >>> mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go >>> thru the wing. The questions are: >>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be >>> fabbing a grill cover. >>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the >>> thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally >>> vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the >>> prop? >>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never >>> know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>> I appreciate the feedback >>> David >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 01:25:52 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 22:25:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, i completed the placement on my vertical thruster. Tomorrow I will need sending to the cnc to cut the support arm for each of the 4 horizontal thrusters. Turns out the thruster just peaks out the bottom. My temporary grill is a bbq grate. If it was only stainless steel. David. On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM David Colombo wrote: > Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below > the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush > grill will look better. > David > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> David, >> I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area >> to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as >> it will >> protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. >> You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the >> horizontal >> Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate >> a bit of that effect. >> Alan >> >> On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it >> out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill >> which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of >> the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement >> issues. >> David >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom >>> of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel >>> it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go >>> out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a >>> little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But >>> the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical >>>> thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to >>>> mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go >>>> thru the wing. The questions are: >>>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be >>>> fabbing a grill cover. >>>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the >>>> thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally >>>> vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the >>>> prop? >>>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. >>>> Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>>> I appreciate the feedback >>>> David >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image1734396640006399190.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 262115 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image3849518237505684318.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 262115 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image7387846232491955686.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 232556 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 01:47:41 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:47:41 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: David, What about a plastic grate! I have seen a few of those around on submarine thrusters. ( well they look plastic) Alan > On 6/07/2020, at 5:25 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi guys, i completed the placement on my vertical thruster. Tomorrow I will need sending to the cnc to cut the support arm for each of the 4 horizontal thrusters. Turns out the thruster just peaks out the bottom. My temporary grill is a bbq grate. If it was only stainless steel. > David. > > > >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM David Colombo wrote: >> Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush grill will look better. >> David >> >>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> David, >>> I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area >>> to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as it will >>> protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. >>> You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the horizontal >>> Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate >>> a bit of that effect. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement issues. >>>> David >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. The questions are: >>>>>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be fabbing a grill cover. >>>>>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the prop? >>>>>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>>>>> I appreciate the feedback >>>>>> David >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 02:17:15 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 23:17:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, you just reminded me about a company called McNicols. I had bought floor grating from them in the past. They have a huge selection. David On Sun, Jul 5, 2020, 10:48 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > What about a plastic grate! > I have seen a few of those around on submarine thrusters. ( well they look > plastic) > Alan > > On 6/07/2020, at 5:25 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi guys, i completed the placement on my vertical thruster. Tomorrow I > will need sending to the cnc to cut the support arm for each of the 4 > horizontal thrusters. Turns out the thruster just peaks out the bottom. My > temporary grill is a bbq grate. If it was only stainless steel. > David. > > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM David Colombo wrote: > >> Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below >> the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush >> grill will look better. >> David >> >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> David, >>> I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area >>> to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as >>> it will >>> protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. >>> You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the >>> horizontal >>> Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate >>> a bit of that effect. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut >>> it out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill >>> which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of >>> the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement >>> issues. >>> David >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Dave, >>>> >>>> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom >>>> of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel >>>> it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go >>>> out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a >>>> little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But >>>> the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical >>>>> thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to >>>>> mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go >>>>> thru the wing. The questions are: >>>>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be >>>>> fabbing a grill cover. >>>>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the >>>>> thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally >>>>> vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the >>>>> prop? >>>>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. >>>>> Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>>>> I appreciate the feedback >>>>> David >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 02:45:25 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 18:45:25 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4285ABDF-B839-4FEE-BEFB-8510620EA9BC@yahoo.com> David, you may be able to print them if you can't find anything the right size & don't want to cut up a grate. Was thinking about how you would fix it in place. If you created a lip in your duct to seat the edge of the grate you could screw it straight down in to the lip. Hydrospace used to have a grate as an accessory for their thruster but had a look & couldn't find it! :( Alan > On 6/07/2020, at 6:17 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, you just reminded me about a company called McNicols. I had bought floor grating from them in the past. They have a huge selection. > David > >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020, 10:48 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> David, >> What about a plastic grate! >> I have seen a few of those around on submarine thrusters. ( well they look plastic) >> Alan >> >>> On 6/07/2020, at 5:25 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi guys, i completed the placement on my vertical thruster. Tomorrow I will need sending to the cnc to cut the support arm for each of the 4 horizontal thrusters. Turns out the thruster just peaks out the bottom. My temporary grill is a bbq grate. If it was only stainless steel. >>> David. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM David Colombo wrote: >>>> Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush grill will look better. >>>> David >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> David, >>>>> I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar area >>>>> to get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as it will >>>>> protrude more with a proppeller guard on it. >>>>> You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the horizontal >>>>> Tunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminate >>>>> a bit of that effect. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it out yet. I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement issues. >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Dave, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. The questions are: >>>>>>>> 1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised slightly. I will be fabbing a grill cover. >>>>>>>> 2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the prop? >>>>>>>> You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver. >>>>>>>> I appreciate the feedback >>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 06:16:36 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:16:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vertical thrusters In-Reply-To: References: <052B50A6-06B9-474F-8B61-DD9D1583F3D0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1942324556.2987976.1594030596093@mail.yahoo.com> David, that looks nice-the thruster poking through won't be noticeable when the hole is full size. ?Hank On Sunday, July 5, 2020, 11:26:27 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi guys, i completed the placement on my vertical thruster. Tomorrow I will need sending to the cnc to cut the support arm for each of the 4 horizontal thrusters. Turns out the thruster just peaks out the bottom. My temporary grill is a bbq grate. If it was only stainless steel.David. On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM David Colombo wrote: Hi Alan, Im thinking the same thing. The collar should be 2-3 long below the flush grill with the top of the wing. Aesthetically I think the flush grill will look better.?David On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 1:33 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I would put it down lower so you have more propeller in the collar areato get a bit of the kort nozzle effect & for visual streamlined look as it willprotrude more with a proppeller guard on it.You will get some power loss with the wash hitting the sides of the horizontalTunnel, but maybe you could make the uncut hole much larger to eliminatea bit of that effect.Alan On 5/07/2020, at 7:55 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, the 12" hole will be in the bottom as well. I just hadn't cut it out yet.? I'm thinking that that the prop will sit just below the grill which will be flush with the surface. Even with that placement the nose of the thruster may just peek out the bottom just a bit, so entanglement issues.David On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 12:00 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Dave, Looking good! Surely there is a 11" diameter hole coming in the bottom of that tunnel? You wouldn't want to draw water in horizontally and expel it vertically - you'd want it to come in directly from the bottom and go out the top. And once you had that hole, the thruster maybe could also go a little lower, so that the prop was just below grade on the top skin. But the latter suggestion seems to me much less important than the first. Best,Alec On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ok guys, looking for comments on potential issues with vertical thrusters. This morning I laid in the first vert thruster in the wing to mock up the attaching bracket to the hull. The twelve inch hole will go thru the wing. The questions are:1) hold the prop flush with top surface or raised? slightly. I will be fabbing a grill cover.2) as the prop can draw water from the bottom as well as thru the thruster tube, any concerns with prop wash being pushed out more laterally vs vertically. Wondering if i need to have a collar at least as deep as the prop??You might be also wondering why I have 101 lb vertical thrusters. Never know when you might need to do a barrel roll maneuver.I appreciate the feedbackDavid_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 09:31:16 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:31:16 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? Thanks James [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 09:59:11 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:59:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 10:15:32 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. > Hank > > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. > I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one > didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit > over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to > put some air back in the pipe. > > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a > toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see > if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor > is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. > They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also > allowing the oil to expand if required. > > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just > got to make a strap for those. > > Any comments? > Thanks > James > > [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 10:28:20 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:28:20 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its enclosed. 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up! On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to > eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. > > Thanks, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi All >> >> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. >> I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one >> didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit >> over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to >> put some air back in the pipe. >> >> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a >> toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see >> if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor >> is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. >> They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also >> allowing the oil to expand if required. >> >> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just >> got to make a strap for those. >> >> Any comments? >> Thanks >> James >> >> [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 13:15:52 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The air bubble is for a few reasons. > > 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though > its enclosed. > 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. > 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this > up! > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy >> to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. >> >> Thanks, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. >>> I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one >>> didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit >>> over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to >>> put some air back in the pipe. >>> >>> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a >>> toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see >>> if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor >>> is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. >>> They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also >>> allowing the oil to expand if required. >>> >>> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. >>> Just got to make a strap for those. >>> >>> Any comments? >>> Thanks >>> James >>> >>> [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 13:35:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 14:15:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 08:15:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: I have always heard from the group that it was imperative to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions?? Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 > > Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal > expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much > smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of > air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was > half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the > photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 > atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume > and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it > cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water > will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much > would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my > point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in > opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, > then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the > math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made > me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what > looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that > bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion > calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the > math would have still added up. > > And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is > a REAL pain! > > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > The air bubble is for a few reasons. > > 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though > its enclosed. > 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. > 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this > up! > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to > eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. > > Thanks, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. > Hank > > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. > I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one > didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit > over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to > put some air back in the pipe. > > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a > toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see > if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor > is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. > They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also > allowing the oil to expand if required. > > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just > got to make a strap for those. > > Any comments? > Thanks > James > > [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 16:04:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:04:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <20200703182907.E25C4A5C@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20200703182907.E25C4A5C@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <35d95cd5-b9b3-2151-fcad-33b5de7bc2df@ohiohills.com> An old sailors' trick for creating non-skid is to paint the deck and then throw rock salt on the paint.? After the paint dries, wash the deck down with fresh water.? The salt dissolves and the deck ends up with tiny fissures that make it hard to slip. I've never known anyone who actually did it. Mike From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 16:23:14 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:23:14 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A0F1711-B264-4990-B817-23604FB9E14B@yahoo.com> James, ideal is to have a system that pressurises to 5psi above ambient as this is the figure that professional compensators try to achieve. Compensating as Cliff does with a relieving regulator does this. He was air compensating, but if you oil compensate with his system you have the Cooling plus added security that if all the oil leaked out you would still have air compensation. With your bellows, I would reduce the air volume a lot. The oil expansion won't be much & you can run your motors out of water till they get hot to check that if you like (but don't overheat them). If you lost oil then the bellows could compress in to the affixed tube & rupture; so less air volume will give you a bit more of a reserve of oil. I would have also put the bellows on the bottom side. If they rip or deteriorate with the oil & leak, then oil being lighter than water will flow out & be replaced with sea water. You could rectify that by swapping the thrusters from one side to the other. If you enclose them for protection, then maybe in an acrylic tube so you can keep an eye on the oil level. Alan. > On 7/07/2020, at 1:31 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All > > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. > I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. > > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. > > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. > > Any comments? > Thanks > James > > <20200704_142240.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 16:45:18 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:45:18 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <2A0F1711-B264-4990-B817-23604FB9E14B@yahoo.com> References: <2A0F1711-B264-4990-B817-23604FB9E14B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12239317-3184-4817-B663-C77CA8F88BAB@yahoo.com> James, an additional thought is that it looks to be placed right in the flow from the propellor. You could have a much narrower tube & place it elsewhere. Alan > On 7/07/2020, at 8:23 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > James, > ideal is to have a system that pressurises to 5psi above ambient as this is > the figure that professional compensators try to achieve. > Compensating as Cliff does with a relieving regulator does this. He was > air compensating, but if you oil compensate with his system you have the > Cooling plus added security that if all the oil leaked out you would still have > air compensation. > With your bellows, I would reduce the air volume a lot. The oil expansion > won't be much & you can run your motors out of water till they get hot to > check that if you like (but don't overheat them). If you lost oil then the bellows > could compress in to the affixed tube & rupture; so less air volume will give > you a bit more of a reserve of oil. > I would have also put the bellows on the bottom side. If they rip or deteriorate > with the oil & leak, then oil being lighter than water will flow out & be replaced > with sea water. > You could rectify that by swapping the thrusters from one side to the other. > If you enclose them for protection, then maybe in an acrylic tube so you can > keep an eye on the oil level. > Alan. > > >> On 7/07/2020, at 1:31 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All >> >> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. >> I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. >> >> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. >> >> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. >> >> Any comments? >> Thanks >> James >> >> <20200704_142240.jpg> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 17:12:09 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 21:12:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method I have always heard from the group that it was imperative?to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line?that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up?with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible?gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions??Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 18:33:50 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:33:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <830388013.3406258.1594074830394@mail.yahoo.com> ?I disagree. ?The small amount of air in the bellows is nothing to worry about. ?I would fill with oil the best you can and go for it. A half full bellow is hard on the bellow because it will collapse a lot, ?but a small amount like 10%, who cares. ?I looked at oil filled thrusters at Nuytco on a older DW and the oil compensation hose is under 2 inches long. ?I looked at ROV hose compensators and the same thing. ?I personally do nothing but fill with oil. ?No compensation at all. ?So a little water gets in-big whoop, ?so a little oil escapes, again big whoop. ?You should change the oil often anyways. ?I make the thruster mounts super easy to remove a motor and my fill plug is under the prop. ?I can change oil in a 10 minutes.Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:35:55 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 18:55:29 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 10:55:29 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Vance, did those compensated motors have an attached or built in compensator to over-pressurise them? Am wondering where the oil was getting out / water was getting in, was it just running out through the shaft seals? Cheers Alan > On 7/07/2020, at 9:12 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air > > My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. > > Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. > > Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. > > The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > > I have always heard from the group that it was imperative to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions?? > Rick > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 > > Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. > > And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! > > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The air bubble is for a few reasons. > > 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its enclosed. > 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. > 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up! > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. > > Thanks, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. > Hank > > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. > I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. > > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. > > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. > > Any comments? > Thanks > James > > <20200704_142240.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > <20200704_142240.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 18:59:43 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:59:43 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Deck In-Reply-To: <35d95cd5-b9b3-2151-fcad-33b5de7bc2df@ohiohills.com> References: <20200703182907.E25C4A5C@m0117568.ppops.net> <35d95cd5-b9b3-2151-fcad-33b5de7bc2df@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael I actually did that on a previous sailboat deck and it worked great after all the loose sand had finally was gone but I don't want to paint the wood as it is teak. I think the surface is rough enough as is though it would not be the case if I had varnished it. Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:06 AM Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > An old sailors' trick for creating non-skid is to paint the deck and > then throw rock salt on the paint. After the paint dries, wash the deck > down with fresh water. The salt dissolves and the deck ends up with > tiny fissures that make it hard to slip. > > I've never known anyone who actually did it. > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 19:18:34 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:18:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to clarify: It's totally acceptable to have no compensator whatsoever, just an oil filled enclosure, however you must be aware of the repercussions of that choice. -Firstly, you must take great care to eliminate ALL of the bubbles in the oil. With a compensator, you have plenty of lee-way so it's not nearly as big of an issue. Oil compensated lead-acid battery systems on deep diving subs have a relief valve at a high point to burp off hydrogen as it is generated. There will always be a bubble (of a perfect explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen mind you) and it's not a big deal because it's allowed to escape as it expands, and has a flexible compensator to make up for lost volume as it compresses. -Second, your enclosure must be prepared for the change in oil volume due to temperature and pressure to manifest as hydraulic pressure. Most likely, the oil will find somewhere to escape, like the u-cup seals on a Minn Kota thruster. After the item cools down, you will find the opposite problem. The housing now doesn't have enough oil, is at a slight vacuum, and will tend to suck in seawater. -typically oil-filled enclosures have some sort of quick-connect oil fitting and an air vent at the top, as well as a relief check valve at the lowest point. Oil can be pumped in, slightly overpressurizing the enclosure, and expelling any accumulated water through the check valve at the bottom. -If you're building a subsea housing of any kind, compensated or 1-atm, I would advise you to carefully consider what happens in an internal over-pressure situation. If a housing were to flood at depth and then be returned to the surface, it could potentially be internally pressurized to dive pressure, and there would be no way of determining that until it either explodes on it's own, or explodes while trying to open it. ALL subsea enclosures commercially available today come with an internal overpressure relief valve. Famously, there was an incident where the Bathysphere came up flooded after an unmanned test dive. The hatch was removed standing off to one side with a sledgehammer, and went rocketing across the deck at the tip of a column of water. The impact dented an inch-thick steel plate. I personally had a near-miss incident where an enclosure naively designed without a proper relief valve, came out of a test chamber with a 3000psi bubble of air in it. Thanks, -River J. Dolfi On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:34 PM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Yet another compensator method > (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:33:50 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Message-ID: <830388013.3406258.1594074830394 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > ?I disagree. ?The small amount of air in the bellows is nothing to worry > about. ?I would fill with oil the best you can and go for it. A half full > bellow is hard on the bellow because it will collapse a lot, ?but a small > amount like 10%, who cares. ?I looked at oil filled thrusters at Nuytco on > a older DW and the oil compensation hose is under 2 inches long. ?I looked > at ROV hose compensators and the same thing. ?I personally do nothing but > fill with oil. ?No compensation at all. ?So a little water gets in-big > whoop, ?so a little oil escapes, again big whoop. ?You should change the > oil often anyways. ?I make the thruster mounts super easy to remove a motor > and my fill plug is under the prop. ?I can change oil in a 10 minutes.Hank > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:35:55 AM MDT, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 > > Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal > expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much > smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of > air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was > half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the > photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 > atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume > and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it > cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water > will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much > would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my > point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in > opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, > then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I ! > did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's > thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose > method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the > photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the > thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, > I'm not sure the math would have still added up. > And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is > a REAL pain! > > Best, > Alec > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > The air bubble is for a few reasons. > 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though > its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id > go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i > brought this up!?? > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to > eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. > Thanks, > Alec > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the > motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a > proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and > leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air > back in the pipe. > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a > toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see > if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor > is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? > They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also > allowing the oil to expand if required. > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just > got to make a strap for those. > Any comments? > ThanksJames > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp:// > www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20200706/fbe6c245/attachment.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: 20200704_142240.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 140261 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20200706/fbe6c245/attachment.jpg > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 > ***************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200706_160922.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 684279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 6 19:34:26 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:34:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly what River says! There was a time with Snoopy when the thrusters were driving me crazy. I'd surface and the little hose that was supposed to act as a compensation bladder was inflated to the thickness of a thumb. Release a hose clamp and it was a miniature version of Beebe's photo. What was happening? I had very little air in the motors, but there was a bit. It was also like 95 degrees on the surface when I put in the oil, and I was diving to 250 where it was really cold. Because the little hose couldn't shrink enough, the whole thruster was getting pressurized. These issues were what led me to try air compensation instead. So far, so good. On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:19 PM River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Just to clarify: > It's totally acceptable to have no compensator whatsoever, just an > oil filled enclosure, however you must be aware of the repercussions of > that choice. > -Firstly, you must take great care to eliminate ALL of the bubbles in the > oil. With a compensator, you have plenty of lee-way so it's not nearly as > big of an issue. Oil compensated lead-acid battery systems on deep diving > subs have a relief valve at a high point to burp off hydrogen as it is > generated. There will always be a bubble (of a perfect explosive mixture of > hydrogen and oxygen mind you) and it's not a big deal because it's allowed > to escape as it expands, and has a flexible compensator to make up for lost > volume as it compresses. > > -Second, your enclosure must be prepared for the change in oil volume due > to temperature and pressure to manifest as hydraulic pressure. Most likely, > the oil will find somewhere to escape, like the u-cup seals on a Minn Kota > thruster. After the item cools down, you will find the opposite problem. > The housing now doesn't have enough oil, is at a slight vacuum, and will > tend to suck in seawater. > -typically oil-filled enclosures have some sort of quick-connect oil > fitting and an air vent at the top, as well as a relief check valve at the > lowest point. Oil can be pumped in, slightly overpressurizing the > enclosure, and expelling any accumulated water through the check valve at > the bottom. > > -If you're building a subsea housing of any kind, compensated or 1-atm, I > would advise you to carefully consider what happens in an internal > over-pressure situation. If a housing were to flood at depth and then be > returned to the surface, it could potentially be internally pressurized to > dive pressure, and there would be no way of determining that until it > either explodes on it's own, or explodes while trying to open it. ALL > subsea enclosures commercially available today come with an internal > overpressure relief valve. Famously, there was an incident where the > Bathysphere came up flooded after an unmanned test dive. The hatch was > removed standing off to one side with a sledgehammer, and went rocketing > across the deck at the tip of a column of water. The impact dented an > inch-thick steel plate. I personally had a near-miss incident where an > enclosure naively designed without a proper relief valve, came out of a > test chamber with a 3000psi bubble of air in it. > > Thanks, > > -River J. Dolfi > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:34 PM via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Yet another compensator method >> (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:33:50 +0000 (UTC) >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> >> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method >> Message-ID: <830388013.3406258.1594074830394 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> ?I disagree. ?The small amount of air in the bellows is nothing to worry >> about. ?I would fill with oil the best you can and go for it. A half full >> bellow is hard on the bellow because it will collapse a lot, ?but a small >> amount like 10%, who cares. ?I looked at oil filled thrusters at Nuytco on >> a older DW and the oil compensation hose is under 2 inches long. ?I looked >> at ROV hose compensators and the same thing. ?I personally do nothing but >> fill with oil. ?No compensation at all. ?So a little water gets in-big >> whoop, ?so a little oil escapes, again big whoop. ?You should change the >> oil often anyways. ?I make the thruster mounts super easy to remove a motor >> and my fill plug is under the prop. ?I can change oil in a 10 minutes.Hank >> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:35:55 AM MDT, Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? >> Brian >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method >> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 >> >> Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal >> expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much >> smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of >> air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was >> half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the >> photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 >> atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume >> and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it >> cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water >> will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much >> would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my >> point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in >> opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, >> then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I ! >> did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's >> thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose >> method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the >> photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the >> thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, >> I'm not sure the math would have still added up. >> And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is >> a REAL pain! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> The air bubble is for a few reasons. >> 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though >> its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id >> go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i >> brought this up!?? >> >> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy >> to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. >> Thanks, >> Alec >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank >> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All >> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed >> the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have >> a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and >> leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air >> back in the pipe. >> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a >> toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see >> if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor >> is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? >> They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also >> allowing the oil to expand if required. >> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just >> got to make a strap for those. >> Any comments? >> ThanksJames >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp:// >> www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20200706/fbe6c245/attachment.html >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: 20200704_142240.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 140261 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20200706/fbe6c245/attachment.jpg >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 >> ***************************************************** >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 03:40:50 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:40:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi All Thanks for the tips. Im going to make a slight modification with a T barb fitting to a "valve" of some sort consisting of a cap to screw in. Something like that. Then i can get most of the air out. I seem to leak oil somewhere. I never notice any around, or on the floor, but air gets in over time. I think the silicone oil im using is so this, its difficult to seal. Ive considered using Marvel mystery oil or even hydraulic oil. Any thoughts on that anyone? Interesting to hear Vance had small amounts of air in after a dive. Makes me feel better. I shall attempt to remove as much as possible, and i do check\fill the motors before every dive. Many Thanks, James On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 18:17, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal > expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much > smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of > air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was > half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the > photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 > atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume > and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it > cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water > will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much > would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my > point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in > opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, > then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the > math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made > me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what > looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that > bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion > calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the > math would have still added up. > > And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is > a REAL pain! > > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> The air bubble is for a few reasons. >> >> 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though >> its enclosed. >> 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. >> 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this >> up! >> >> >> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy >>> to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi All >>>> >>>> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. >>>> I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one >>>> didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit >>>> over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to >>>> put some air back in the pipe. >>>> >>>> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a >>>> toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see >>>> if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor >>>> is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. >>>> They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also >>>> allowing the oil to expand if required. >>>> >>>> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. >>>> Just got to make a strap for those. >>>> >>>> Any comments? >>>> Thanks >>>> James >>>> >>>> [image: 20200704_142240.jpg] >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 04:04:06 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 09:04:06 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard Message-ID: Not sure of the quality judging by the "Engrish". https://propgad.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 04:14:37 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 09:14:37 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rim Drive Motors Message-ID: Maybe we could have some sort of community team think and figure out how to build some of these rim drive motors. Emile has them on Drebbel and they seem to be the answer to all the problems. I got a quote once from a UK company to make one and it came in at ?30,000. :/ http://krakenpower.de/?page_id=568 https://www.copenhagensubsea.com/vs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 05:33:19 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 21:33:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rim Drive Motors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2775D46C-8DBD-40B8-A70B-2357522388E0@yahoo.com> James, I have looked briefly at them & think they look more problematic than a conventional thruster. There is a large rotor with the permanent magnets on the outside & the fins on the inside. This runs inside a ring of coils. You would have to either use large rotary seals to stop the water getting between the stator & rotor, or just Coat the stator & rotor with a water resistant resin. The latter would be subject to abrasion, particularly in seawater. Apart from that you have to transfer the Lateral thrust from the propellors to the housing, & that would need either one really large bearing, or a series of smaller bearings on both end housings ( for forward & reverse). These bearings would have to be waterproof or sealed. The main shortcoming I see with the standard trolling motor we use is that they don't have a mechanical shaft seal. I made a thruster with a mechanical seal, but it was a lot of work & I aren't completely happy with the way I joined up the 3 housing sections. I was pinning the sections together with screws rather than using long bolts that pull the sections together as in bought thrusters that have a cast housing. What I think would be ideal would be to find an off the shelf thruster & rebuild the end section to add in a mechanical seal. I am happy using the relieving pressure regulator that Cliff is using as an oil compensator. Alan > On 7/07/2020, at 8:14 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Maybe we could have some sort of community team think and figure out how to build some of these rim drive motors. Emile has them on Drebbel and they seem to be the answer to all the problems. > I got a quote once from a UK company to make one and it came in at ?30,000. :/ > > http://krakenpower.de/?page_id=568 > > https://www.copenhagensubsea.com/vs > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 08:17:30 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:17:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <601518379.1662725.1594124250746@mail.yahoo.com> None of the above. For compensation, the motors use a top hat diaphragm with a bolted retention ring on the front end of the thruster, with a free flooding fiberglas cap. The bladder itself was an airbrake diaphragm out of the truck parts catalogue. There was also the electrical penetration in the side boss, plus the top and bottom oil fill/vent fittings, then the planetary gear case, followed by the shaft bearing and primary seal case and then, finally, the prop. We used a 16-spring Crane carbon face seal as I recall, and a 14 X 14 four blade prop cut to tolerance for the cast and machined to match Kort nozzle. They did all they could to make them work well. The motors were wound in-house with square wire, for efficiency. Plus the rotors and stators were epoxy cast, and then machined to close tolerances (to minimize rotationally induced turbulence). But, they were high efficiency 5 horsepower, 120 volt, 60+ amp DC motors, which meant the brushes were always going to be a problem, and were more of a problem at depth (the oil under pressure tends to weasel into the brush/rotor interface, which caused arcing). We usually drained and flushed the whole thing as part of regular service, and on occasion, based on oil color, as the arcing put trace particulates of conductive material into the mix (it looked like old crankcase oil). Also, the Shell hydraulic oil was/is transparent red, and about a tablespoon of seawater will turn it into pink foam. Which was an oh, shit moment, because then we had to tear the damned thing down AGAIN, and find the leak. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Vance,did those compensated motors have an attached or built in compensator?to over-pressurise them?Am wondering where the oil was getting out / water was getting in, was it just?running out through the shaft seals?Cheers Alan On 7/07/2020, at 9:12 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method I have always heard from the group that it was imperative?to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line?that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up?with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible?gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions??Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames <20200704_142240.jpg> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles <20200704_142240.jpg> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 08:21:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <261312886.1670397.1594124468389@mail.yahoo.com> Remember the Hyco boys. Brilliant, one and all. The Hymaks have a fill point for oil on the bottom of the cylinder, and a relief valve/check valve deal on top, which means you don't have to mess with both connectors for check/top-up, and the relief valve would equalize internal overpressure as a matter of design.Vance -----Original Message----- From: River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles To: via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 Just to clarify:It's totally acceptable to have no compensator whatsoever, just an oil?filled enclosure, however you must be aware of the repercussions of that choice.-Firstly, you must take great care to eliminate ALL of the bubbles in the oil. With a compensator, you have plenty of lee-way so it's not nearly as big of an issue. Oil compensated lead-acid battery systems on deep diving subs have a relief valve at a high point to burp off hydrogen as it is generated. There will always be a bubble (of a perfect explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen mind you) and it's not a big deal because it's allowed to escape as it expands, and has a flexible compensator to make up for lost volume as it compresses.? -Second, your enclosure must be prepared for the change in oil volume due to temperature and pressure to manifest as hydraulic pressure. Most likely, the oil will find somewhere to escape,?like the u-cup seals on a Minn Kota thruster. After the item cools down, you will find the opposite problem. The housing now doesn't have enough oil, is at a slight vacuum, and will tend to suck in seawater.-typically oil-filled enclosures have some sort of quick-connect oil fitting and an air vent at the top, as well as a relief check valve at the lowest point. Oil can be pumped in, slightly overpressurizing the enclosure, and expelling any accumulated water through the check valve at the bottom. -If you're building a subsea housing of any kind, compensated or 1-atm, I would advise you to carefully consider what happens in an internal over-pressure situation. If a housing were to flood at depth and then be returned to the surface, it could potentially be internally pressurized to dive pressure, and there would be no way of determining that until it either explodes on it's own, or explodes while trying to open it. ALL subsea enclosures commercially available today come with an internal overpressure relief valve. Famously, there was an incident where the Bathysphere came up flooded after an unmanned test dive. The hatch was removed standing off to one side with a sledgehammer, and went rocketing across the deck at the tip of a column of water. The impact dented an inch-thick steel plate. I personally had a near-miss incident where an enclosure naively designed without a proper relief valve, came out of a test chamber with a 3000psi bubble of air in it.?Thanks, -River J. Dolfi On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:34 PM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Yet another compensator method ? ? ? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:33:50 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <830388013.3406258.1594074830394 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ??I disagree. ?The small amount of air in the bellows is nothing to worry about. ?I would fill with oil the best you can and go for it. A half full bellow is hard on the bellow because it will collapse a lot, ?but a small amount like 10%, who cares. ?I looked at oil filled thrusters at Nuytco on a older DW and the oil compensation hose is under 2 inches long. ?I looked at ROV hose compensators and the same thing. ?I personally do nothing but fill with oil. ?No compensation at all. ?So a little water gets in-big whoop, ?so a little oil escapes, again big whoop. ?You should change the oil often anyways. ?I make the thruster mounts super easy to remove a motor and my fill plug is under the prop. ?I can change oil in a 10 minutes.Hank ? ? On Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:35:55 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? ?I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I ! ?did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank ? ? On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? ?Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 ***************************************************** _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 08:25:20 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rim Drive Motors In-Reply-To: <2775D46C-8DBD-40B8-A70B-2357522388E0@yahoo.com> References: <2775D46C-8DBD-40B8-A70B-2357522388E0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208154633.1668462.1594124720705@mail.yahoo.com> The rim drives on Pisces 6 have NO seals, and no air spaces!!! And they are a lot less expensive than the ones from England. Which ain't the same thing as cheap.Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:33 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rim Drive Motors James,I have looked briefly at them & think they look more problematic thana conventional thruster.There is a large rotor with the permanent magnets on the outside & the?fins on the inside. This runs inside a ring of coils. You would have to eitheruse large rotary seals to stop the water getting between the stator & rotor, or justCoat the stator & rotor with a water resistant resin. The latter would be subjectto abrasion, particularly in seawater. Apart from that you have to transfer theLateral thrust from the propellors to the housing, & that would need either onereally large bearing, or a series of smaller bearings on both end housings ( forforward & reverse). These bearings would have to be waterproof or sealed.The main shortcoming I see with the standard trolling motor we use is that?they don't ?have a mechanical shaft seal.I made a thruster with a mechanical seal, but it was a lot of work & I aren't?completely happy with the way I joined up the 3 housing sections. I was pinningthe sections together with screws rather than using long bolts that pull thesections together as in bought thrusters that have a cast housing.What I think would be ideal would be to find an off the shelf thruster & rebuildthe end section to add in a mechanical seal.?I am happy using the relieving pressure regulator that Cliff is using as an oil compensator.Alan On 7/07/2020, at 8:14 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe we could have some sort of community team think and figure out how to build some of these rim drive motors.? Emile has them on Drebbel and they seem to be the answer to all the problems.??I got a quote once from a UK company to make one and it came in at ?30,000.? ? :/ http://krakenpower.de/?page_id=568? https://www.copenhagensubsea.com/vs ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 08:28:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:28:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <261312886.1670397.1594124468389@mail.yahoo.com> References: <261312886.1670397.1594124468389@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <705912277.3652927.1594124913260@mail.yahoo.com> It seems to me that no matter what-water gets in. ?Probably because of the turbulence. ?Gamma's drive shaft tube is oil filled with motor oil and just a smooth shaft in the oil plus the smooth magnet. ?I put a air cylinder on it to act as a compensator. ?No problem at all and it works perfectly. ?I think because there is little turbulence. ?I figure if water is going to get in the motors-don't fight it. ?Just make it so it is easy to change oil and use cheap oil like WD-40Hank On Tuesday, July 7, 2020, 6:21:25 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Remember the Hyco boys. Brilliant, one and all. The Hymaks have a fill point for oil on the bottom of the cylinder, and a relief valve/check valve deal on top, which means you don't have to mess with both connectors for check/top-up, and the relief valve would equalize internal overpressure as a matter of design.Vance -----Original Message----- From: River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles To: via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 Just to clarify:It's totally acceptable to have no compensator whatsoever, just an oil?filled enclosure, however you must be aware of the repercussions of that choice.-Firstly, you must take great care to eliminate ALL of the bubbles in the oil. With a compensator, you have plenty of lee-way so it's not nearly as big of an issue. Oil compensated lead-acid battery systems on deep diving subs have a relief valve at a high point to burp off hydrogen as it is generated. There will always be a bubble (of a perfect explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen mind you) and it's not a big deal because it's allowed to escape as it expands, and has a flexible compensator to make up for lost volume as it compresses.? -Second, your enclosure must be prepared for the change in oil volume due to temperature and pressure to manifest as hydraulic pressure. Most likely, the oil will find somewhere to escape,?like the u-cup seals on a Minn Kota thruster. After the item cools down, you will find the opposite problem. The housing now doesn't have enough oil, is at a slight vacuum, and will tend to suck in seawater.-typically oil-filled enclosures have some sort of quick-connect oil fitting and an air vent at the top, as well as a relief check valve at the lowest point. Oil can be pumped in, slightly overpressurizing the enclosure, and expelling any accumulated water through the check valve at the bottom. -If you're building a subsea housing of any kind, compensated or 1-atm, I would advise you to carefully consider what happens in an internal over-pressure situation. If a housing were to flood at depth and then be returned to the surface, it could potentially be internally pressurized to dive pressure, and there would be no way of determining that until it either explodes on it's own, or explodes while trying to open it. ALL subsea enclosures commercially available today come with an internal overpressure relief valve. Famously, there was an incident where the Bathysphere came up flooded after an unmanned test dive. The hatch was removed standing off to one side with a sledgehammer, and went rocketing across the deck at the tip of a column of water. The impact dented an inch-thick steel plate. I personally had a near-miss incident where an enclosure naively designed without a proper relief valve, came out of a test chamber with a 3000psi bubble of air in it.?Thanks, -River J. Dolfi On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:34 PM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ? ? ? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at ? ? ? ? personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: ? ?1. Re: Yet another compensator method ? ? ? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:33:50 +0000 (UTC) From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles ? ? ? ? Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <830388013.3406258.1594074830394 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ??I disagree. ?The small amount of air in the bellows is nothing to worry about. ?I would fill with oil the best you can and go for it. A half full bellow is hard on the bellow because it will collapse a lot, ?but a small amount like 10%, who cares. ?I looked at oil filled thrusters at Nuytco on a older DW and the oil compensation hose is under 2 inches long. ?I looked at ROV hose compensators and the same thing. ?I personally do nothing but fill with oil. ?No compensation at all. ?So a little water gets in-big whoop, ?so a little oil escapes, again big whoop. ?You should change the oil often anyways. ?I make the thruster mounts super easy to remove a motor and my fill plug is under the prop. ?I can change oil in a 10 minutes.Hank ? ? On Monday, July 6, 2020, 11:35:55 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? ?I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I ! ! ?did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank ? ? On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? ?Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200704_142240.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 140261 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 85, Issue 35 ***************************************************** _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 11:22:01 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:22:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <20200707082201.E25FEB72@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 11:44:06 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 09:44:06 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <20200707082201.E25FEB72@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20200707082201.E25FEB72@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian. That is pretty clever. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 7, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I'm working on a compensator that has a couple of stages to it . It will have an extra oil side reservoir , then go to the main reservoir. It will be open to the seawater but it will be filled with water ahead of time. It will be similar to my current compensator except there will be a water and oil reservoir where the oil will be floating on top of the water and a tube going down into the water which will allow pressure to push the air from the open tube in and out as the sub is at depth or on the surface. I'll have to make a picture ;-) > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 10:55:29 +1200 > > Vance, > did those compensated motors have an attached or built in compensator > to over-pressurise them? > Am wondering where the oil was getting out / water was getting in, was it just > running out through the shaft seals? > Cheers Alan > > On 7/07/2020, at 9:12 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air > > My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. > > Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. > > Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. > > The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > > I have always heard from the group that it was imperative to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions?? > Rick > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 > > Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. > > And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! > > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The air bubble is for a few reasons. > > 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its enclosed. > 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. > 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up! > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. > > Thanks, > Alec > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. > Hank > > On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. > I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. > > Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. > > The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. > > Any comments? > Thanks > James > > <20200704_142240.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > <20200704_142240.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 13:20:58 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 17:20:58 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <1781710128.3082859.1594043951941@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One thing to note about air in compensation systems is that the oxygen can dissolve into the oil, and just as with aqueous solutions, solubility is greater at lower temperatures, so if you have your compensating oil exposed to atmosphere for a length of time at surface conditions, the dissolved oxygen will reach an equilibrium at that temperature, and then in service if your oil heats up (in the case of light or motor housings, or other compensated volumes where the heat input is greater than cooling through the enclosure walls), once you take the pressure off that heat drives the gas out of solution, which you notice when you bleed the system post dive. Also, not every little bubble is going to make it to the high point bleed during pre - gas trapped in other areas (not necessarily due to design - small bubbles can adhere to vertical surfaces due to their own surface tension) may dissolve into the oil initially, and then evolve off when you bleed the system later. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 13:55:50 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 10:55:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d65487$dab15060$9013f120$@telus.net> This prop guard certainly looks interesting. particularly the introductory price. It would not be difficult to modify the attachment design to something slicker, or use the ring as the core for a kort nozzle. Thanks, James. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 1:04 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard Not sure of the quality judging by the "Engrish". https://propgad.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 14:50:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard Message-ID: <1172152069.2864.1594147813813@wamui-lucy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 15:31:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:31:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <20200707123133.E25FFB4A@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 16:38:32 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:38:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: <601518379.1662725.1594124250746@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> <601518379.1662725.1594124250746@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Vance, that was interesting, especially the encapsulation of the windings & stator, & machining of it. That is added security seeing it is a sealed oil filled unit anyway. Blue robotics does a small open brushless ROV motor that just uses non corrosive bearings & epoxy coated stator & rotor. Maybe we could emulate that on a larger scale? Alan > On 8/07/2020, at 12:17 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > None of the above. For compensation, the motors use a top hat diaphragm with a bolted retention ring on the front end of the thruster, with a free flooding fiberglas cap. The bladder itself was an airbrake diaphragm out of the truck parts catalogue. There was also the electrical penetration in the side boss, plus the top and bottom oil fill/vent fittings, then the planetary gear case, followed by the shaft bearing and primary seal case and then, finally, the prop. We used a 16-spring Crane carbon face seal as I recall, and a 14 X 14 four blade prop cut to tolerance for the cast and machined to match Kort nozzle. > > They did all they could to make them work well. The motors were wound in-house with square wire, for efficiency. Plus the rotors and stators were epoxy cast, and then machined to close tolerances (to minimize rotationally induced turbulence). But, they were high efficiency 5 horsepower, 120 volt, 60+ amp DC motors, which meant the brushes were always going to be a problem, and were more of a problem at depth (the oil under pressure tends to weasel into the brush/rotor interface, which caused arcing). > > We usually drained and flushed the whole thing as part of regular service, and on occasion, based on oil color, as the arcing put trace particulates of conductive material into the mix (it looked like old crankcase oil). Also, the Shell hydraulic oil was/is transparent red, and about a tablespoon of seawater will turn it into pink foam. Which was an oh, shit moment, because then we had to tear the damned thing down AGAIN, and find the leak. > > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 6:55 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method > > Vance, > did those compensated motors have an attached or built in compensator > to over-pressurise them? > Am wondering where the oil was getting out / water was getting in, was it just > running out through the shaft seals? > Cheers Alan > >> On 7/07/2020, at 9:12 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air >> >> My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. >> >> Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. >> >> Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. >> >> The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. >> >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method >> >> I have always heard from the group that it was imperative to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions?? >> Rick >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method >> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 >> >> Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot, you might be just fine. But as you dive to your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would depend on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. >> >> And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! >> >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> The air bubble is for a few reasons. >> >> 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its enclosed. >> 2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it. >> 3. Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up! >> >> >> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. >> >> Thanks, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi All >> >> Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so. >> I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals. Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. >> >> Anyway, the new method is simply a tube with belows. These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens. They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air. They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. >> >> The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection. Just got to make a strap for those. >> >> Any comments? >> Thanks >> James >> >> <20200704_142240.jpg> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> <20200704_142240.jpg> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 17:13:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 21:13:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method In-Reply-To: References: <20200706103504.E25F9243@m0117568.ppops.net> <2079261910.1465553.1594069929678@mail.yahoo.com> <601518379.1662725.1594124250746@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1772703132.1894931.1594156383617@mail.yahoo.com> I'm sure the Hymaks could be improved on with more modern designs. I will say they were very cool, and still are. The square windings and all that made a 5 hp motor that was about 4 inches in diameter and maybe 10 inches long. It would overheat just looking at it unless completely submerged. But what a motor!!!Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Thanks Vance,that was interesting, especially the encapsulation of the windings & stator,& machining of it. That is added security seeing it is a sealed oil filled unitanyway. Blue robotics does a small open brushless ROV motor that just uses non corrosive bearings & epoxy coated stator & rotor. Maybe we could emulate thaton a larger scale?Alan On 8/07/2020, at 12:17 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: None of the above. For compensation, the motors use a top hat diaphragm with a bolted retention ring on the front end of the thruster, with a free flooding fiberglas cap. The bladder itself was an airbrake diaphragm out of the truck parts catalogue. There was also the electrical penetration in the side boss, plus the top and bottom oil fill/vent fittings, then the planetary gear case, followed by the shaft bearing and primary seal case and then, finally, the prop. We used a 16-spring Crane carbon face seal as I recall, and a 14 X 14 four blade prop cut to tolerance for the cast and machined to match Kort nozzle. They did all they could to make them work well. The motors were wound in-house with square wire, for efficiency. Plus the rotors and stators were epoxy cast, and then machined to close tolerances (to minimize rotationally induced turbulence). But, they were high efficiency 5 horsepower, 120 volt, 60+ amp DC motors, which meant the brushes were always going to be a problem, and were more of a problem at depth (the oil under pressure tends to weasel into the brush/rotor interface, which caused arcing). We usually drained and flushed the whole thing as part of regular service, and on occasion, based on oil color, as the arcing put trace particulates of conductive material into the mix (it looked like old crankcase oil). Also, the Shell hydraulic oil was/is transparent red, and about a tablespoon of seawater will turn it into pink foam. Which was an oh, shit moment, because then we had to tear the damned thing down AGAIN, and find the leak. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Vance,did those compensated motors have an attached or built in compensator?to over-pressurise them?Am wondering where the oil was getting out / water was getting in, was it just?running out through the shaft seals?Cheers Alan On 7/07/2020, at 9:12 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The all-the-air thing is engineer speak for mostly-kinda-sorta-all-the-air My experience with the compensated Hyco built Hymak motors says that the only time you get all the air out is when it's an accident. And even if you started out that way, we were likely to have a little air when we got back, mostly from internal turbulence and the minor brush arcing that got worse as we went deeper. Meaning that checking for salt water intrusion and topping up the oil in a Hymak was done after EVERY dive, even on Aquarius in the Gulf of Mexico, where we were only diving in the 200-300 foot range. Those little air bubbles are just part of the cost of doing business. They were why we bought compensating oil in 55 gallon drums. The cool thing with the Hymaks was that the whole process took about two minutes. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2020 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method I have always heard from the group that it was imperative?to get ALL the air out due to the compression difference between air and liquid so I will be using small IV bags attached to the housing that I found on line?that are only about 3" square and my plan was to exhaust all of the air out of the housing and the bag as well with the bag having just a very small quantity of oil in it to feed the housing if needed but the bag would easily inflate with the expanding oil as needed as it is very flexible. Haven't gotten that far yet but that was what I came up?with when I was trying to go to sleep one night. This way I never have any compressible?gas in the system yet have a bladder that flexes easily with hot oil and visa versa. Open to suggestions??Rick On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:36 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think a way to simply leave it open should be figured out.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:15:52 -0400 Sorry, my understanding is the exact opposite. Thermal expansion/contraction volumes of the oil are significant, but of much smaller magnitude than gas volume changes due to pressure if the amount of air in the system is not absolutely minimal. Lets say your air bubble was half the volume of the bellows, which is about what it looks like in the photo. If you go to 350 feet, you will be adding a little more than 10 atmospheres, so the bubble will only be about a tenth its original volume and the bellows will have to contract about 45%. I'm not saying it cannot,?you might be just fine. But as you dive to?your 350 feet, the water will also get cold, so the oil will contract too. Quantifying how much would?depend?on the temperature differential and the volume of oil. But my point is BOTH the air and the oil are contracting. If their deltas were in opposite?directions, say with the air contracting and the oil expanding, then one could argue an air bubble absorbs the expansion. I did once do the math for thermal expansion/contraction on Snoopy's thrusters, and it made me switch from just using the coiled length of hose method to adopting what looks like the exact same bellows you have in the photo. I selected that bellows because it had a volume appropriate to the thermal expansion calculation. However, if you add the gas delta to that, I'm not sure the math would have still added up. And yes, filling these things with oil so there's no or minimal bubble is a REAL pain! Best, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:29 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The air bubble is for a few reasons. 1. To allow easier expansion of the oil if required, even though its?enclosed.2. Seems impossible to completely eliminate it, so thought id go with it.3.? Some people said you should have a bubble last time i brought this up!?? On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 15:16, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good to me, but why have an air bubble? I always tried like crazy to eliminate it, since that is what expands or contracts most. Thanks, Alec On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:00 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: James, that looks great-the air bubble is good also. ?Hank On Monday, July 6, 2020, 7:31:46 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Getting Jodie B ready for diving in the next week or so.I have changed the motor compensator yet again as the last enclosed one didnt really have a proper flexible part and I think the oil expanded a bit over time and leaked out through the seals.? Just a tiny bit, but enough to put some air back in the pipe. Anyway, the new method is simply a tube?with belows.? These are from a toilet flush and have been sitting full of oil for a couple of weeks to see if anything happens.? They seem good, so i have installed them. The motor is completely filled with oil and the bellows have a small amount of air.? They compress easily, so should provide pressure compensation while also allowing the oil to expand if required. The bellows will be covered with an open ended tube for protection.? Just got to make a strap for those. Any comments? ThanksJames <20200704_142240.jpg> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles --00000000000093ffaf05a9c9074c--_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles <20200704_142240.jpg> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 19:28:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:28:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard In-Reply-To: <1172152069.2864.1594147813813@wamui-lucy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1172152069.2864.1594147813813@wamui-lucy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002801d654b6$443cbaa0$ccb62fe0$@telus.net> Good points, Ian. The type of plastic is really important. We have found that acetone works really well in bonding printed layers, resulting in a much stronger printed structure. They may be doing this, or we could do it ourselves upon receipt. The very slow speeds that we cruise at may mean that this unit will be of sufficient strength for our purposes. Personally, I think that the price just seems too low to be confident on its value. But, it's probably better than no prop guard at all. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of irox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 11:50 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard I see it's 3D printed, although it doesn't identify what the plastic is, or how it is reinforced. For me this raises a couple of concerns, 1) 3D prints are not super strong, and something hitting the prop-guard may cause it to break and foul the prop, 2) the layer manufacturing process used is not going to be water tight, allowing water into voids in the prop-guard, which will likely shorten the time-to-fail. The "reinforced" bit is interesting, I wonder if there is a metal ring buried in the guard, or if there are using plastic with something added/embedded to provided reinforcement (e.g. short strands of glass). I would be possible to design something similar which was parametric, and could be customized for each trolling motor (rather than two sizes fit all) before being printed out. Cheers, Ian. -----Original Message----- From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jul 7, 2020 10:55 AM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard This prop guard certainly looks interesting. particularly the introductory price. It would not be difficult to modify the attachment design to something slicker, or use the ring as the core for a kort nozzle. Thanks, James. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 1:04 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard Not sure of the quality judging by the "Engrish". https://propgad.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 19:31:45 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:31:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another compensator method Message-ID: <20200707163145.E25FCC6B@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 7 17:55:47 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:55:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Message-ID: The power train from a hybrid car.? Has anyone contemplated that?? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 08:47:50 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:47:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6.Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs list Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car.? Has anyone contemplated that?? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 08:56:36 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:56:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering > Pisces 6. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a > neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 08:59:59 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:59:59 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. >> Vance >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles >> To: psubs list >> Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >> >> The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 09:47:20 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:47:20 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of > resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort > of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to > college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a > great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is > also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's > stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can > be found for reasonable prices. > > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in >> powering Pisces 6. >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: psubs list >> Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >> >> The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a >> neat package, well-tested and reliable. >> >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 12:14:07 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:14:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > >> 1.21 GW? >> >> Sean >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of >> resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort >> of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to >> college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a >> great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is >> also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's >> stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can >> be found for reasonable prices. >> >> :) >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in >>> powering Pisces 6. >>> Vance >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: psubs list >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >>> >>> The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's >>> a neat package, well-tested and reliable. >>> >>> >>> Mike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 13:02:22 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 13:02:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Maybe not, but it should do 88mph >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> 1.21 GW? >>> >>> Sean >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton >>> of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm >>> sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior >>> heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a >>> DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin >>> Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my >>> nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be >>> removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in >>>> powering Pisces 6. >>>> Vance >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: psubs list >>>> Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm >>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >>>> >>>> The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's >>>> a neat package, well-tested and reliable. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 14:04:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 11:04:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 16:34:17 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:34:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> Message-ID: OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced > with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more > accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. > > > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > > > Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks > to the stainless. > > > > https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > [image: Image removed by sender.] > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of > resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort > of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to > college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a > great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is > also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's > stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can > be found for reasonable prices. > > > > :) > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering > Pisces 6. > > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a > neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 17:41:09 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 14:41:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Prop guard Message-ID: <588813586.4235.1594244469244@wamui-lucy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 18:24:20 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:24:20 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> Message-ID: 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should > stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced >> with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more >> accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >> >> >> >> Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks >> to the stainless. >> >> >> >> https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> [image: Image removed by sender.] >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Maybe not, but it should do 88mph >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> 1.21 GW? >> >> Sean >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of >> resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort >> of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to >> college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a >> great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is >> also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's >> stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can >> be found for reasonable prices. >> >> >> >> :) >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in >> powering Pisces 6. >> >> Vance >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: psubs list >> Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: >> >> The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a >> neat package, well-tested and reliable. >> >> >> Mike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sub image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 269447 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 19:35:58 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:35:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> Message-ID: <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 19:42:37 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 19:42:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> References: <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> Message-ID: I think you all assumed the idea was making it into a sub, but I?m only intending to re-engine it for road use. A car-sub I think is a fun idea but stretched compromise too far. > On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:36 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. > > https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. > > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 19:55:07 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:55:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> Message-ID: <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 20:13:42 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:13:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> References: <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> Message-ID: That?s correct, they are unfortunately out of business. > On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:55 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. > > I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. > > https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. > > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 8 20:41:02 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:41:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1D8ADBAA-554D-440A-9F3E-E4BAB00EBD72@yahoo.com> Tim, I am wondering how old the acrylic sphere is. If you had to replace that at any time it would cost a fortune. I guess you could de-rate the sphere for personal use if it were getting old. Alan > On 9/07/2020, at 11:55 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. > > I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. > > https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. > > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 9 01:59:12 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 22:59:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <1D8ADBAA-554D-440A-9F3E-E4BAB00EBD72@yahoo.com> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> <1D8ADBAA-554D-440A-9F3E-E4BAB00EBD72@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009c01d655b6$12ba5ae0$382f10a0$@telus.net> Yes, unfortunate. But there is just not much of a market for million dollar sphere subs. I think that the submarine of interest is around three years old. It was just over a year ago that the principal and the project manager of Aquatica came to a UASBC meeting to promote the product line. They gave a really interesting presentation of their mission to explore the Great Blue Hole in Belize. Last year I sent him an email about the then upcoming Innerspace Science mission in Montana, but I received no response. It would have been a great addition to the project. It appears that no private buyers wanted to put one on their super-yachts. And most marine science operations cannot afford them either. It makes me wonder how the manufacturers of the other similar type submarines stay afloat. Why is there such a large market for personal aircraft, but not personal submarines? Of course, product history and technical support availability are part of it. But you would think that being 10,000agl at 100kts is scarier than 200fsw at 4kts. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 5:41 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tim, I am wondering how old the acrylic sphere is. If you had to replace that at any time it would cost a fortune. I guess you could de-rate the sphere for personal use if it were getting old. Alan On 9/07/2020, at 11:55 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 9 03:31:48 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 19:31:48 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <009c01d655b6$12ba5ae0$382f10a0$@telus.net> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> <1D8ADBAA-554D-440A-9F3E-E4BAB00EBD72@yahoo.com> <009c01d655b6$12ba5ae0$382f10a0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <06D54601-ECCA-485C-9520-C57907F4C4E4@yahoo.com> Tim, I think part of the answer is you need a Super yacht decked out with cranes & a support team to dive it, unless you set it up at a tourist resort & have an operation like Karl's. But the tourist industry isn't fairing too well at the moment. No use you looking at it, you'd just flip it upside down & use it as a habitat. Alan > On 9/07/2020, at 5:59 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yes, unfortunate. But there is just not much of a market for million dollar sphere subs. I think that the submarine of interest is around three years old. It was just over a year ago that the principal and the project manager of Aquatica came to a UASBC meeting to promote the product line. They gave a really interesting presentation of their mission to explore the Great Blue Hole in Belize. Last year I sent him an email about the then upcoming Innerspace Science mission in Montana, but I received no response. It would have been a great addition to the project. > > It appears that no private buyers wanted to put one on their super-yachts. And most marine science operations cannot afford them either. It makes me wonder how the manufacturers of the other similar type submarines stay afloat. > > Why is there such a large market for personal aircraft, but not personal submarines? Of course, product history and technical support availability are part of it. But you would think that being 10,000agl at 100kts is scarier than 200fsw at 4kts. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 5:41 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Tim, > I am wondering how old the acrylic sphere is. > If you had to replace that at any time it would cost a fortune. > I guess you could de-rate the sphere for personal use if it were > getting old. > Alan > > On 9/07/2020, at 11:55 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. > > I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. > > Tim > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. > > https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Maybe not, but it should do 88mph > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 1.21 GW? > > Sean > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. > > :) > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: > > The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 9 08:18:22 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:18:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft References: <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, after talking about it for years I have finally started building my sub launching landing craft. ?I abandoned the barge idea for logistic reasons. ?I am repurposing the hull from my paddle wheel boat. ?I am well under way and should have the hull mods done in a week or so. ?I was planning to use an A- frame to lift the sub into the water. ?I have changed my mind and am sloping the front deck into the water and making a strong ?fold down ramp \ door to just winch the sub onto the deck. ? I am new to this and am very paranoid on these huge lakes. ?There are a lot of boats on the bottom! ?My plan was to fill the hull void with plastic drums to make it un-sinkable. ?I can not source barrels close to home-I can get 150 5 gallon plastic buckets for 150 dollars. ?I am thinking of filling the hull void with buckets. ?Any reason this is a bad idea? ?I will leave a crawl space down the middle for inspection purposes.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 9 12:07:18 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:07:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: In-Reply-To: <06D54601-ECCA-485C-9520-C57907F4C4E4@yahoo.com> References: <1262071207.2103811.1594212470946@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d65552$2ba940c0$82fbc240$@telus.net> <006a01d65580$89491010$9bdb3030$@telus.net> <007701d65583$36126420$a2372c60$@telus.net> <1D8ADBAA-554D-440A-9F3E-E4BAB00EBD72@yahoo.com> <009c01d655b6$12ba5ae0$382f10a0$@telus.net> <06D54601-ECCA-485C-9520-C57907F4C4E4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001601d6560b$05ee4a60$11cadf20$@telus.net> You know me too well, Alan. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 12:32 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tim, I think part of the answer is you need a Super yacht decked out with cranes & a support team to dive it, unless you set it up at a tourist resort & have an operation like Karl's. But the tourist industry isn't fairing too well at the moment. No use you looking at it, you'd just flip it upside down & use it as a habitat. Alan On 9/07/2020, at 5:59 PM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Yes, unfortunate. But there is just not much of a market for million dollar sphere subs. I think that the submarine of interest is around three years old. It was just over a year ago that the principal and the project manager of Aquatica came to a UASBC meeting to promote the product line. They gave a really interesting presentation of their mission to explore the Great Blue Hole in Belize. Last year I sent him an email about the then upcoming Innerspace Science mission in Montana, but I received no response. It would have been a great addition to the project. It appears that no private buyers wanted to put one on their super-yachts. And most marine science operations cannot afford them either. It makes me wonder how the manufacturers of the other similar type submarines stay afloat. Why is there such a large market for personal aircraft, but not personal submarines? Of course, product history and technical support availability are part of it. But you would think that being 10,000agl at 100kts is scarier than 200fsw at 4kts. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 5:41 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tim, I am wondering how old the acrylic sphere is. If you had to replace that at any time it would cost a fortune. I guess you could de-rate the sphere for personal use if it were getting old. Alan On 9/07/2020, at 11:55 AM, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Uh oh, the Aquatica Stingray is for sale practically right in my back yard, and was manufactured in nearby West Vancouver. Hmm? considering that this sub had an original price tag over $1M makes me wonder if they are no longer in business. I saw my SportSub for sale in the Orlando FL Craigslist, only to find it FOB a half hour drive away from me where it was manufactured. I told them I couldn't afford it so they offered it to me at a price I could not refuse. Sometimes things just fall out of the sky and into your lap. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 4:36 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Tough call, David. The car conversion would have to be ambient, if not fully wet. There's also a fiberglass DeLorean lookalike bodied hovercraft out there that could be modified to submerge. It wouldn't take too much putty for you to make it spectacular. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 3:24 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: 21k for the car / future sub, or current bid $81k for this sub..... Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: OH! I hadn't thought of turning it into a sub like the Esprit. I should stop getting ideas from you guys... that one's a bit too tempting! On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 2:04 PM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: The interior looks pretty rough. But that could be removed and replaced with something more appropriate for a wet sub. That would be more accessible than that fiberglass Lotus wet sub that has gone crazy in value. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: Here's one for $20K. Needs some TLC all right, but very restorable thanks to the stainless. https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/delorean/dmc-12/2404129.html On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:15 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alec, What's a reasonable price for a time machine? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:48 AM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Maybe not, but it should do 88mph On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 9:00 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: 1.21 GW? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 8, 2020, 06:56, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a burgeoning sub-culture of people doing "EV swaps" and a ton of resources online. It's where car tuning is at the moment. In fact I'm sort of eyeing it myself, though I won't have garage space until junior heads to college in 3 years... BTW my project would be to EV swap a DeLorean. It's a great chassis, with the suspension designed by Colin Chapman. The body is also fantastic, designed by Giugaro. No rust, my nemesis, because it's stainless. The engine was pathetic and deserves to be removed. And they can be found for reasonable prices. :) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:48 AM via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We spoke with the people at Tesla, but they weren't interested in powering Pisces 6. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles > To: psubs list > Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2020 5:55 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Alternate propulsion idea: The power train from a hybrid car. Has anyone contemplated that? It's a neat package, well-tested and reliable. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 9 13:30:17 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:30:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft In-Reply-To: <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201d65616$9df3acf0$d9db06d0$@telus.net> Hank, Fill the buckets with solid foam. That should solve your concern. There are loads of barges out there made with solid foam blocks between the bulkhead frames. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 5:18 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft Hi All, after talking about it for years I have finally started building my sub launching landing craft. I abandoned the barge idea for logistic reasons. I am repurposing the hull from my paddle wheel boat. I am well under way and should have the hull mods done in a week or so. I was planning to use an A- frame to lift the sub into the water. I have changed my mind and am sloping the front deck into the water and making a strong fold down ramp \ door to just winch the sub onto the deck. I am new to this and am very paranoid on these huge lakes. There are a lot of boats on the bottom! My plan was to fill the hull void with plastic drums to make it un-sinkable. I can not source barrels close to home-I can get 150 5 gallon plastic buckets for 150 dollars. I am thinking of filling the hull void with buckets. Any reason this is a bad idea? I will leave a crawl space down the middle for inspection purposes. Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 10 09:56:43 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft In-Reply-To: <002201d65616$9df3acf0$d9db06d0$@telus.net> References: <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2047389405.4811899.1594297102640@mail.yahoo.com> <002201d65616$9df3acf0$d9db06d0$@telus.net> Message-ID: <89764607.5400401.1594389403707@mail.yahoo.com> Tim, My concern is about not having buoyancy inside the hull. ?I am just wondering if there is any reason putting air tight buckets inside the hull could be a problem. ?Maybe for inspections? ?Seems like a good idea to me-given the low cost and the insurance of not sinking.Hank On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 11:30:37 AM MDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5705693843 #yiv5705693843 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv5705693843 #yiv5705693843 p.yiv5705693843MsoNormal, #yiv5705693843 li.yiv5705693843MsoNormal, #yiv5705693843 div.yiv5705693843MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New serif;}#yiv5705693843 a:link, #yiv5705693843 span.yiv5705693843MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5705693843 a:visited, #yiv5705693843 span.yiv5705693843MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5705693843 span.yiv5705693843EmailStyle17 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv5705693843 .yiv5705693843MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv5705693843 div.yiv5705693843WordSection1 {}#yiv5705693843 Hank, Fill the buckets with solid foam.? That should solve your concern.? There are loads of barges out there made with solid foam blocks between the bulkhead frames. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 5:18 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft ? Hi All, after talking about it for years I have finally started building my sub launching landing craft. ?I abandoned the barge idea for logistic reasons. ?I am repurposing the hull from my paddle wheel boat. ?I am well under way and should have the hull mods done in a week or so. ?I was planning to use an A- frame to lift the sub into the water. ?I have changed my mind and am sloping the front deck into the water and making a strong ?fold down ramp \ door to just winch the sub onto the deck. ? ? I am new to this and am very paranoid on these huge lakes. ?There are a lot of boats on the bottom! ?My plan was to fill the hull void with plastic drums to make it un-sinkable. ?I can not source barrels close to home-I can get 150 5 gallon plastic buckets for 150 dollars. ?I am thinking of filling the hull void with buckets. ?Any reason this is a bad idea? ?I will leave a crawl space down the middle for inspection purposes. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 10 10:41:49 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 07:41:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft Message-ID: <20200710074149.E25F619F@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 10 11:54:29 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 15:54:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft In-Reply-To: <20200710074149.E25F619F@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20200710074149.E25F619F@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <673961502.5484372.1594396469462@mail.yahoo.com> Brain, really? ?I better do a test. ?Good to know. ?Hank On Friday, July 10, 2020, 8:42:14 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank , those buckets will collapse?with very little pressure.? ? I did a test with my sub and there was not much depth but the bucket collapsed. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Tim, My concern is about not having buoyancy inside the hull. ?I am just wondering if there is any reason putting air tight buckets inside the hull could be a problem. ?Maybe for inspections? ?Seems like a good idea to me-given the low cost and the insurance of not sinking.Hank On Thursday, July 9, 2020, 11:30:37 AM MDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Fill the buckets with solid foam.? That should solve your concern.? There are loads of barges out there made with solid foam blocks between the bulkhead frames. Tim ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 5:18 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft ? Hi All, after talking about it for years I have finally started building my sub launching landing craft. ?I abandoned the barge idea for logistic reasons. ?I am repurposing the hull from my paddle wheel boat. ?I am well under way and should have the hull mods done in a week or so. ?I was planning to use an A- frame to lift the sub into the water. ?I have changed my mind and am sloping the front deck into the water and making a strong ?fold down ramp \ door to just winch the sub onto the deck. ? ? I am new to this and am very paranoid on these huge lakes. ?There are a lot of boats on the bottom! ?My plan was to fill the hull void with plastic drums to make it un-sinkable. ?I can not source barrels close to home-I can get 150 5 gallon plastic buckets for 150 dollars. ?I am thinking of filling the hull void with buckets. ?Any reason this is a bad idea? ?I will leave a crawl space down the middle for inspection purposes. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 10 12:39:52 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:39:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Landing craft Message-ID: <20200710093952.E25F31F0@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 12 10:52:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 10:52:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge built K350 for sale on Craigslist Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 12 11:12:32 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:12:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge built K350 for sale on Craigslist Message-ID: <28305886-0007-4450-BAB0-71AC11939A58@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 12 11:12:32 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:12:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge built K350 for sale on Craigslist Message-ID: <28305886-0007-4450-BAB0-71AC11939A58@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 12 14:10:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:10:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge built K350 for sale on Craigslist Message-ID: <273479036.1311.1594577455344@wamui-fuzz.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 13 07:21:39 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:21:39 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compensation Method Again... Message-ID: Hi All, Right, this has got to be it, surely? Ive put in a T connector at the top with a plug so i can remove it to fill. Then a pvc tube goes underneath to the bellows thing, contained in a housing. I can easily fill the motor and im happy now its properly compensated and allows for any expansion. Of course, the next day after filling it, there was a small amount of air in the tube. No idea where it comes from. Im putting ti down to micro bubbles collecting on things. Anyway, at least its easy to top up before a dive. The aft motor is different. This has 2x tubes protruding through the main original shaft of the motor. I have added the bellows to this also. I am going to put another on the other tube so it has 2. These dont need any cover as they are inside the aft fairing\main tank and so out the way. Regards James [image: 20200711_150625.jpg] [image: 20200711_153215.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200711_150625.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 104423 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200711_153215.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 134275 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 13 08:03:59 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:03:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compensation Method Again... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76C57F31-C02B-42AF-A342-CE073542B762@yahoo.com> Hi James, to me the bellows look too small. Any air in the system that is compressed, or oil that leaks out could cause the bellows to be forced into the connecting tube & get ruptured in the process. This would destroy your motor with the salt water flowing in. All commercial ROV & submarine motors I've seen have an overpressure of about 5psi, & in an ex military paper I read on compensating motors, the over pressure is standard. I would have a look at the size of commercial compensators for thrusters & base the size of your bellows on that. People in the group who just dive lakes can get away with lots of things but with you diving in seawater, you mightn't be so lucky. Cheers Alan > On 13/07/2020, at 11:21 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > > Right, this has got to be it, surely? > > Ive put in a T connector at the top with a plug so i can remove it to fill. Then a pvc tube goes underneath to the bellows thing, contained in a housing. I can easily fill the motor and im happy now its properly compensated and allows for any expansion. Of course, the next day after filling it, there was a small amount of air in the tube. No idea where it comes from. Im putting ti down to micro bubbles collecting on things. Anyway, at least its easy to top up before a dive. > > The aft motor is different. This has 2x tubes protruding through the main original shaft of the motor. I have added the bellows to this also. I am going to put another on the other tube so it has 2. These dont need any cover as they are inside the aft fairing\main tank and so out the way. > Regards > James > <20200711_150625.jpg> > <20200711_153215.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 13 08:17:18 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:17:18 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compensation Method Again... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6336F898-30AA-44F7-9F41-3F7DCB1788DD@gmail.com> Nice solution James, I think that should work! > On Jul 13, 2020, at 7:22 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hi All, > > Right, this has got to be it, surely? > > Ive put in a T connector at the top with a plug so i can remove it to fill. Then a pvc tube goes underneath to the bellows thing, contained in a housing. I can easily fill the motor and im happy now its properly compensated and allows for any expansion. Of course, the next day after filling it, there was a small amount of air in the tube. No idea where it comes from. Im putting ti down to micro bubbles collecting on things. Anyway, at least its easy to top up before a dive. > > The aft motor is different. This has 2x tubes protruding through the main original shaft of the motor. I have added the bellows to this also. I am going to put another on the other tube so it has 2. These dont need any cover as they are inside the aft fairing\main tank and so out the way. > Regards > James > <20200711_150625.jpg> > > <20200711_153215.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 13 10:24:36 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:24:36 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compensation Method Again... In-Reply-To: <6336F898-30AA-44F7-9F41-3F7DCB1788DD@gmail.com> References: <6336F898-30AA-44F7-9F41-3F7DCB1788DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know what you mean Alan. Bigger bellows would allow more leeway. But i think as long as there isnt more air in than the volume of the bellows, then i should de ok. I am doubling up the bellows on the aft motor. On Mon, 13 Jul 2020 at 13:18, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Nice solution James, I think that should work! > > > > On Jul 13, 2020, at 7:22 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > ? > > Hi All, > > > > Right, this has got to be it, surely? > > > > Ive put in a T connector at the top with a plug so i can remove it to > fill. Then a pvc tube goes underneath to the bellows thing, contained in a > housing. I can easily fill the motor and im happy now its properly > compensated and allows for any expansion. Of course, the next day after > filling it, there was a small amount of air in the tube. No idea where it > comes from. Im putting ti down to micro bubbles collecting on things. > Anyway, at least its easy to top up before a dive. > > > > The aft motor is different. This has 2x tubes protruding through the > main original shaft of the motor. I have added the bellows to this also. > I am going to put another on the other tube so it has 2. These dont need > any cover as they are inside the aft fairing\main tank and so out the way. > > Regards > > James > > <20200711_150625.jpg> > > > > <20200711_153215.jpg> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jul 14 08:21:40 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:21:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub transporter buoyancy References: <1909152838.1375637.1594729300497.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1909152838.1375637.1594729300497@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, you had me nervous about my bucket buoyancy. ?I picked up 130 ?oil pails yesterday for 100 dollars. ?I tested one just now to see if it wold collapse and how much weight it could support. ?It held up just fine, but these are pretty heavy duty and I only submerged them in a garbage can. ?They hold up about 45 lbs. ?That makes the Landing Craft \ Sub transporter un-sinkable - as long as the pails stay intact.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 15 12:17:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:17:55 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Message-ID: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using? Thanks james -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 15 14:34:52 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1741204507.2196789.1594838092916@mail.yahoo.com> Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 15 15:17:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:17:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Message-ID: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 03:48:26 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:48:26 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Jon. Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > These guys are good > > https://www.co2meter.com/collections/products > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) > > Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, > or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? > > On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly > calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. > > Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to > at least 1% really. > > What are other people using? > Thanks > james > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 07:02:44 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:02:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 09:34:02 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:34:02 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before. Just a bit pricey. I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter > Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > Looking for a complete unit. > > On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > These guys are good > > https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) > > Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, > or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? > > On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly > calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. > > Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to > at least 1% really. > > What are other people using? > Thanks > james > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 11:14:18 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:14:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2117521834.2651733.1594912458989@mail.yahoo.com> Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor | | | | $129.00 | | | | | | | TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... | | | On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 11:58:05 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:58:05 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <2117521834.2651733.1594912458989@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> <2117521834.2651733.1594912458989@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, seen that one also thanks. Think it might be ok for a backup. Says it doesnt meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed. But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead. I'll wait until tomorrow just in case someone comes up with a better suggestion overnight. You never know. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Check out this one. Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm > guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. > > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > > > $129.00 > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > > The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative > humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > That one looks good Hank, seen that one before. Just a bit pricey. I ws > kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter > Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > Looking for a complete unit. > > On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > These guys are good > > https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) > > Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, > or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? > > On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly > calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. > > Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to > at least 1% really. > > What are other people using? > Thanks > james > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 13:55:57 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 17:55:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20200715121755.E259A6D6@m0117566.ppops.net> <1046743545.2542132.1594897364995@mail.yahoo.com> <2117521834.2651733.1594912458989@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <898230734.2763544.1594922157829@mail.yahoo.com> James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up. ?I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading. ?David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. ?Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, seen that one also thanks.? Think it might be ok for a backup.? Says it doesnt?meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed.? But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead.? I'll wait until tomorrow just in case?someone comes up with?a better suggestion overnight.? You never know.?? On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor | | | | $129.00 | | | | | | | TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... | | | On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 16:38:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:38:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <898230734.2763544.1594922157829@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <202007162316.06GNG6Ov062100@whoweb.com> How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up. ?I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading. ?David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. ?Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, seen that one also thanks.? Think it might be ok for a backup.? Says it doesnt?meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed.? But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead.? I'll wait until tomorrow just in case?someone comes up with?a better suggestion overnight.? You never know.?? On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor $129.00TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity MonitorThe TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 17:08:19 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 17:08:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <202007162316.06GNG6Ov062100@whoweb.com> References: <898230734.2763544.1594922157829@mail.yahoo.com> <202007162316.06GNG6Ov062100@whoweb.com> Message-ID: OK, I should clarify that... I don't use an altimeter for measuring CO2 directly. Here's what I do: The scrubber runs continuously. As it does so, CO2 is taken out of the cabin atmosphere. This reduces the cabin pressure. The O2 bleed also runs continuously. This adds to cabin pressure. What an altimeter will show is whether the cabin pressure is increasing or decreasing. If it is increasing, that means your O2 bleed exceeds the CO2 absorption, so you should reduce the O2 bleed rate. Conversely, if the pressure is falling you need to increase the O2 bleed. BTW it is unrelated to life support, but an altimeter also helps insure against blowing out your viewports due to internal pressure. Even for a small sub like a K250, this is a slow-mo process that does not require you to adjust the bleed rate more than about once every 20 or 30 minutes. If it were something that required constant adjustment, I'd automate it with electronics or with a mechanical system such as Phil Nyutten's bellows-add mechanism. But for me, the simplicity of a manual bleed is more valuable than automating a process that is not taxing. What could throw off the method is an accidental slow leak of HP air or O2 into the cabin. Let's say you had an accidental release of air. It would lead you to add too little O2, so O2 concentration would fall. Or if the leak were of O2, that would lead O2 concentrations to be too high. For that reason, you need to have an O2 monitor with high and low alarms. Low O2 is a serious problem because you can pass out unexpectedly. High O2 is also bad, because the cabin atmosphere would become combustible. Another problem would be if the scrubber failed. That would lead to excessive CO2. But this is way less worrying than high or low O2, because the human body has a built-in CO2 sensor. When air feels stale, it is not low O2 we are detecting, it is high CO2. This means a high CO2 condition does not creep up and surprise you. Kittredge originally didn't have any life support at all, because the Navy subs he served on didn't have it either. I dove Snoopy many times before adding life support. The air only became noticeably stale after over an hour, and at that time I would use Kittredge's method of surfacing and opening the hatch. Best, Alec On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:39 PM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > > James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up. I know Alec only > uses an altimeter for CO2 reading. David Columbo and I am several dives > with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. > Hank > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yes, seen that one also thanks. Think it might be ok for a backup. Says > it doesnt meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed. But > its cheap! > > So far that one is in the lead. I'll wait until tomorrow just in > case someone comes up with a better suggestion overnight. You never know. > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Check out this one. Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm > guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. > > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > > > $129.00 > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > > The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative > humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > That one looks good Hank, seen that one before. Just a bit pricey. I ws > kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter > Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > Looking for a complete unit. > > On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > These guys are good > > https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org > wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles org > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion org > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) > > Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, > or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? > > On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly > calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. > > Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to > at least 1% really. > > What are other people using? > Thanks > james > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ > listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 17:15:35 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:15:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202007162353.06GNrR3t063008@whoweb.com> Alec, Thanks for the clarification!!? Isn't an overpressure valve supposed to keep the ports from blowing out? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 2:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter OK, I should clarify that... I don't use an altimeter for measuring CO2 directly. Here's what I do: The scrubber runs continuously. As it does so, CO2 is taken out of the cabin atmosphere. This reduces the cabin pressure. The O2 bleed also runs continuously. This adds to cabin pressure.What an altimeter will show is whether the cabin pressure is increasing or decreasing. If it is increasing, that means your O2 bleed exceeds the CO2 absorption, so you should reduce the O2 bleed rate. Conversely, if the pressure is falling you need to increase the O2 bleed. BTW it is unrelated to life support, but an altimeter also helps insure against blowing out your viewports due to internal pressure.? ?Even for a small sub like a K250, this is a slow-mo process that does not require you to adjust the bleed rate more than about once every 20 or 30 minutes. If it were something that required constant adjustment, I'd automate it with electronics or with a mechanical system such as Phil Nyutten's bellows-add mechanism. But for me, the simplicity of a manual bleed is more valuable than automating a process that is not taxing. What could throw off the method is an accidental slow leak of HP air or O2 into the cabin. Let's say you had an accidental release of air. It would lead you to add too little O2, so O2 concentration would fall. Or if the leak were of O2, that would lead O2 concentrations to be too high. For that reason, you need to have an O2 monitor with high and low alarms. Low O2 is a serious problem because you can pass out unexpectedly. High O2 is also bad, because the cabin atmosphere would become combustible.? Another problem would be if the scrubber failed. That would lead to excessive CO2. But this is way less worrying than high or low O2, because the human body has a built-in CO2 sensor. When air feels stale, it is not low O2 we are detecting, it is high CO2. This means a high CO2 condition does not creep up and surprise you. Kittredge originally didn't have any life support at all, because the Navy subs he served on didn't have it either. I dove Snoopy many times before adding life support. The air only became noticeably stale after over an hour, and at that time I would use Kittredge's method of surfacing and opening the hatch.? Best,Alec On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:39 PM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up.? I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading.? David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. ?Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, seen that one also thanks.? Think it might be ok for a backup.? Says it doesnt?meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed.? But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead.? I'll wait until tomorrow just in case?someone comes up with?a better suggestion overnight.? You never know.?? On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor $129.00TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity MonitorThe TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 17:15:35 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:15:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202007170009.06H09DZ9063261@whoweb.com> Alec, Thanks for the clarification!!? Isn't an overpressure valve supposed to keep the ports from blowing out? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 2:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter OK, I should clarify that... I don't use an altimeter for measuring CO2 directly. Here's what I do: The scrubber runs continuously. As it does so, CO2 is taken out of the cabin atmosphere. This reduces the cabin pressure. The O2 bleed also runs continuously. This adds to cabin pressure.What an altimeter will show is whether the cabin pressure is increasing or decreasing. If it is increasing, that means your O2 bleed exceeds the CO2 absorption, so you should reduce the O2 bleed rate. Conversely, if the pressure is falling you need to increase the O2 bleed. BTW it is unrelated to life support, but an altimeter also helps insure against blowing out your viewports due to internal pressure.? ?Even for a small sub like a K250, this is a slow-mo process that does not require you to adjust the bleed rate more than about once every 20 or 30 minutes. If it were something that required constant adjustment, I'd automate it with electronics or with a mechanical system such as Phil Nyutten's bellows-add mechanism. But for me, the simplicity of a manual bleed is more valuable than automating a process that is not taxing. What could throw off the method is an accidental slow leak of HP air or O2 into the cabin. Let's say you had an accidental release of air. It would lead you to add too little O2, so O2 concentration would fall. Or if the leak were of O2, that would lead O2 concentrations to be too high. For that reason, you need to have an O2 monitor with high and low alarms. Low O2 is a serious problem because you can pass out unexpectedly. High O2 is also bad, because the cabin atmosphere would become combustible.? Another problem would be if the scrubber failed. That would lead to excessive CO2. But this is way less worrying than high or low O2, because the human body has a built-in CO2 sensor. When air feels stale, it is not low O2 we are detecting, it is high CO2. This means a high CO2 condition does not creep up and surprise you. Kittredge originally didn't have any life support at all, because the Navy subs he served on didn't have it either. I dove Snoopy many times before adding life support. The air only became noticeably stale after over an hour, and at that time I would use Kittredge's method of surfacing and opening the hatch.? Best,Alec On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:39 PM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up.? I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading.? David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. ?Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, seen that one also thanks.? Think it might be ok for a backup.? Says it doesnt?meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed.? But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead.? I'll wait until tomorrow just in case?someone comes up with?a better suggestion overnight.? You never know.?? On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor $129.00TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity MonitorThe TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 19:12:59 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 23:12:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <202007162353.06GNrR3t063008@whoweb.com> References: <202007162353.06GNrR3t063008@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <672290404.2926937.1594941179688@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, does that mean you have a CO2 meter? ??Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 3:15:57 PM MDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, Thanks for the clarification!!? Isn't an overpressure valve supposed to keep the ports from blowing out? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 2:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter OK, I should clarify that... I don't use an altimeter for measuring CO2 directly. Here's what I do: The scrubber runs continuously. As it does so, CO2 is taken out of the cabin atmosphere. This reduces the cabin pressure. The O2 bleed also runs continuously. This adds to cabin pressure.What an altimeter will show is whether the cabin pressure is increasing or decreasing. If it is increasing, that means your O2 bleed exceeds the CO2 absorption, so you should reduce the O2 bleed rate. Conversely, if the pressure is falling you need to increase the O2 bleed. BTW it is unrelated to life support, but an altimeter also helps insure against blowing out your viewports due to internal pressure.? ?Even for a small sub like a K250, this is a slow-mo process that does not require you to adjust the bleed rate more than about once every 20 or 30 minutes. If it were something that required constant adjustment, I'd automate it with electronics or with a mechanical system such as Phil Nyutten's bellows-add mechanism. But for me, the simplicity of a manual bleed is more valuable than automating a process that is not taxing. What could throw off the method is an accidental slow leak of HP air or O2 into the cabin. Let's say you had an accidental release of air. It would lead you to add too little O2, so O2 concentration would fall. Or if the leak were of O2, that would lead O2 concentrations to be too high. For that reason, you need to have an O2 monitor with high and low alarms. Low O2 is a serious problem because you can pass out unexpectedly. High O2 is also bad, because the cabin atmosphere would become combustible.? Another problem would be if the scrubber failed. That would lead to excessive CO2. But this is way less worrying than high or low O2, because the human body has a built-in CO2 sensor. When air feels stale, it is not low O2 we are detecting, it is high CO2. This means a high CO2 condition does not creep up and surprise you. Kittredge originally didn't have any life support at all, because the Navy subs he served on didn't have it either. I dove Snoopy many times before adding life support. The air only became noticeably stale after over an hour, and at that time I would use Kittredge's method of surfacing and opening the hatch.? Best,Alec On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:39 PM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up.? I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading.? David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. ?Hank On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, seen that one also thanks.? Think it might be ok for a backup.? Says it doesnt?meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed.? But its cheap! So far that one is in the lead.? I'll wait until tomorrow just in case?someone comes up with?a better suggestion overnight.? You never know.?? On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Check out this one.? Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor | | | | $129.00 | | | | | | | TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... | | | On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That one looks good Hank, seen that one before.? Just a bit pricey.? I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon.Looking for a complete unit. On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: These guys?are good https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup.? I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably?priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. What are other people using?Thanksjames ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles ______________________________ _________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs. orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 21:59:59 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:59:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter In-Reply-To: <672290404.2926937.1594941179688@mail.yahoo.com> References: <672290404.2926937.1594941179688@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9604AF05-9089-478E-9E81-EB24E2DB74F3@gmail.com> Hi Hank, Nope, no CO2 meter because we all have one of those built in! And yes Keith, OP valve should save the viewports, but the altimeter is way more sensitive so gives earlier warning. One of the problems with blowing out viewports is you don?t really know at what pressure that would occur, since all the calculations are for external pressure. I?ve got a big dome up front, and just a fraction of a psi translates to pretty considerable forces over an area like that. Best, Alec > On Jul 16, 2020, at 7:13 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Alec, does that mean you have a CO2 meter? > Hank > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 3:15:57 PM MDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, > > Thanks for the clarification!! > > Isn't an overpressure valve supposed to keep the ports from blowing out? > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/16/20 2:08 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > > OK, I should clarify that... I don't use an altimeter for measuring CO2 directly. Here's what I do: > > The scrubber runs continuously. As it does so, CO2 is taken out of the cabin atmosphere. This reduces the cabin pressure. The O2 bleed also runs continuously. This adds to cabin pressure. > What an altimeter will show is whether the cabin pressure is increasing or decreasing. If it is increasing, that means your O2 bleed exceeds the CO2 absorption, so you should reduce the O2 bleed rate. Conversely, if the pressure is falling you need to increase the O2 bleed. BTW it is unrelated to life support, but an altimeter also helps insure against blowing out your viewports due to internal pressure. > > Even for a small sub like a K250, this is a slow-mo process that does not require you to adjust the bleed rate more than about once every 20 or 30 minutes. If it were something that required constant adjustment, I'd automate it with electronics or with a mechanical system such as Phil Nyutten's bellows-add mechanism. But for me, the simplicity of a manual bleed is more valuable than automating a process that is not taxing. > > What could throw off the method is an accidental slow leak of HP air or O2 into the cabin. Let's say you had an accidental release of air. It would lead you to add too little O2, so O2 concentration would fall. Or if the leak were of O2, that would lead O2 concentrations to be too high. For that reason, you need to have an O2 monitor with high and low alarms. Low O2 is a serious problem because you can pass out unexpectedly. High O2 is also bad, because the cabin atmosphere would become combustible. > > Another problem would be if the scrubber failed. That would lead to excessive CO2. But this is way less worrying than high or low O2, because the human body has a built-in CO2 sensor. When air feels stale, it is not low O2 we are detecting, it is high CO2. This means a high CO2 condition does not creep up and surprise you. Kittredge originally didn't have any life support at all, because the Navy subs he served on didn't have it either. I dove Snoopy many times before adding life support. The air only became noticeably stale after over an hour, and at that time I would use Kittredge's method of surfacing and opening the hatch. > > Best, > Alec > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:39 PM k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > How do you use an altimeter to determine CO2 levels??? > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 7/16/20 10:55 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > > James, your altimeter-if you have one, is your back up. I know Alec only uses an altimeter for CO2 reading. David Columbo and I am several dives with just the Altimeter and O2 readings in Montana last summer. > Hank > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 9:58:33 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yes, seen that one also thanks. Think it might be ok for a backup. Says it doesnt meet various regulations and reviews on Amazon are mixed. But its cheap! > > So far that one is in the lead. I'll wait until tomorrow just in case someone comes up with a better suggestion overnight. You never know. > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 16:15, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Check out this one. Not sure what the operating voltage is, but I'm guessing the transformer brings it to 9v or so. > > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > > $129.00 > TIM10 Desktop CO2, Temp. & Humidity Monitor > The TiM10 continuously shows carbon dioxide, temperature and relative humidity levels so you can monitor the qua... > > > > > > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 09:36:15 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > That one looks good Hank, seen that one before. Just a bit pricey. I ws kind of hoping to keep the cost under ?100 as its only a backup. > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 12:04, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > HT-2000 Digital CO2 Meter Detector 9999ppm Temperature Relative Humidity Monitor Data Logger > On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 1:48:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon. > Looking for a complete unit. > > On Wednesday, 15 July 2020, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > These guys are good > > https://www.co2meter.com/ collections/products > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) > > Are you looking for a sensor that you can interface to a microprocessor, or an all-in-one monitor that contains both the sensor and display? > > On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Im going to get another CO2 monitor, as a backup. I have decent, properly calibrated one, so i dont want to break the bank with this one. > > Anyone got any ideas for a reasonably priced backup? It needs to go up to at least 1% really. > > What are other people using? > Thanks > james > > ______________________________ _________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 16 23:13:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 20:13:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Backup CO2 Meter Message-ID: <20200716201313.E2597E48@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 19 20:09:05 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:09:05 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) References: <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C.ref@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C@yahoo.ca> My new sub hauler Hank -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2450.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1464559 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 19 20:56:57 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:56:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20200719175657.E259AC3F@m0117567.ppops.net> Nice Hank ! I'm currently looking at a land based hauler myself Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:09:05 -0600 My new sub hauler Hank Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 19 22:12:26 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 02:12:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20200719175657.E259AC3F@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20200719175657.E259AC3F@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1129182873.4080096.1595211146827@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, thanks-you will need a big one for that big sub of yours.Hank On Sunday, July 19, 2020, 6:57:11 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Nice Hank !? I'm currently looking at a land based hauler myself Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:09:05 -0600 My new sub hauler Hank Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jul 19 23:19:43 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 20:19:43 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <20200719201943.E259AED1@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 20 02:29:31 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Tim Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 23:29:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C@yahoo.ca> References: <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C.ref@yahoo.ca> <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <009e01d65e5f$20fdb410$62f91c30$@telus.net> Very nice, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it in action. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 5:09 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) My new sub hauler Hank From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 20 06:49:36 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:49:36 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Message for Cliff Redus. Message-ID: Hi Cliff, Could you contact me off list when you have time. Many thanks, James Jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jul 20 07:41:15 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:41:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <009e01d65e5f$20fdb410$62f91c30$@telus.net> References: <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C.ref@yahoo.ca> <7DC6E4FF-9798-4610-8FDD-B7561D129C8C@yahoo.ca> <009e01d65e5f$20fdb410$62f91c30$@telus.net> Message-ID: <679040307.4208002.1595245275786@mail.yahoo.com> Tim, thanks' been wanting to do this for a long time. ?Hank On Monday, July 20, 2020, 12:29:48 AM MDT, Tim Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Very nice, Hank. Looking forward to seeing it in action. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 5:09 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) My new sub hauler Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 09:11:16 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 13:11:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 09:48:41 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:48:41 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0e0901d6602e$cf7769c0$6e663d40$@airesearch.nl> Hi Jon, I just bought one ( 400 meter @ 0,1 meter reading) from RScomponents. I am no specialist but they have a lot of choise. Br,Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 22 juli 2020 15:11 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 12:12:49 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:12:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I use a lot of pressure transducers, which I divide roughly into two categories: 1) Pressure transducers which are for the sole purpose of monitoring machine / system parameters for operator or diagnostic feedback, and 2) Pressure transducers which will directly produce client data. For the former purpose, I will buy any transducer with appropriate datasheet specifications, and may source from Omega, Digi-Key, or any of the instrumentation providers who may rebrand Chinese transducers, because I need neither accuracy nor traceability (nor technically, reliability). Anything that can fail without severe consequences is in this category, and I tend to go cheap on. That said, all transducers are subject to in-house calibration, and a two-point verification (typically at 20% and 80% of range) against a traceable standard. I don't care if there is some error, but I do need to characterize it to know what my absolute accuracy actually is. For the latter purpose, I buy almost exclusively from Honeywell, but may occasionally buy from Wika or other established manufacturers. These transducers are independently calibrated in a pressure, temperature and humidity controlled laboratory in both directions, are traceable with known accuracy to NIST standards, and the drift across subsequent calibrations can be tracked (typically at 6 month to 1 year intervals). If such a transducer is within its calibration interval, I will install it in a system, subject to the same two-point verification process before any data is used. If the calculated error on verification (both % of reading, and % of full scale) is greater than either the published specs or the calibration data, it goes back for calibration. If it won't calibrate within specs, it goes for repair / replacement. Specifically, I would suggest that you look at the Honeywell FP2000 or FP5000 series transducers, which are available as mV/V bridge, or amplified voltage or current outputs. I use a lot of 4-20 mA FP5000's. I'm not sure how you are conditioning / using the output signal in your application? (I also use TJE / STJE series mV/V transducers, but usually only for pressures greater than 10,000 psi. I have a couple of 50,000 psi TJE's, and these track pretty reliably over a 5000 psi FP2000 on the same source). The FP2000 / FP5000 series are cheaper (but not cheap!), and more than good enough for every purpose I have encountered so far. You can find the datasheets for these online. They are configurable, so you specify all options (range, gauge/absolute/differential, amplifier type, temperature compensation, material, connector type, etc.) per the datasheet info and then get a quote for your desired part number(s). They are built to order, so typically a few weeks lead time. I purchase mine through Hoskin Scientific, but you may have different local distribution. Again, probably closer to $1000 than $100, but when accuracy / reliability count and the information is critical, going cheap doesn't save you anything. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > > I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. > > Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 12:24:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:24:55 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I should add to that - we have an in-house calibration lab, so we don't bother with more than the basic factory calibration on ordering transducers, because we reperform the calibrations on arrival anyway. If you are relying on factory or third-party lab calibrations, it may be worth it to pay for the expanded 5 or 10-point factory calibration option, if you care about your measurement being traceable / minimizing error. For a personal project in which traceability didn't matter, five years would still be about my comfort limit for calibration interval. These transducers are all subject to a bit of zero offset drift over time. There is always some production variance, and interestingly, in the case of the Honeywell STJE's (0.05% published accuracy), I heard from the rep that these are simply TJE's which happened to test out with tighter accuracy, so they get the STJE label. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 10:12 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I use a lot of pressure transducers, which I divide roughly into two categories: 1) Pressure transducers which are for the sole purpose of monitoring machine / system parameters for operator or diagnostic feedback, and 2) Pressure transducers which will directly produce client data. For the former purpose, I will buy any transducer with appropriate datasheet specifications, and may source from Omega, Digi-Key, or any of the instrumentation providers who may rebrand Chinese transducers, because I need neither accuracy nor traceability (nor technically, reliability). Anything that can fail without severe consequences is in this category, and I tend to go cheap on. That said, all transducers are subject to in-house calibration, and a two-point verification (typically at 20% and 80% of range) against a traceable standard. I don't care if there is some error, but I do need to characterize it to know what my absolute accuracy actually is. > > For the latter purpose, I buy almost exclusively from Honeywell, but may occasionally buy from Wika or other established manufacturers. These transducers are independently calibrated in a pressure, temperature and humidity controlled laboratory in both directions, are traceable with known accuracy to NIST standards, and the drift across subsequent calibrations can be tracked (typically at 6 month to 1 year intervals). If such a transducer is within its calibration interval, I will install it in a system, subject to the same two-point verification process before any data is used. If the calculated error on verification (both % of reading, and % of full scale) is greater than either the published specs or the calibration data, it goes back for calibration. If it won't calibrate within specs, it goes for repair / replacement. > > Specifically, I would suggest that you look at the Honeywell FP2000 or FP5000 series transducers, which are available as mV/V bridge, or amplified voltage or current outputs. I use a lot of 4-20 mA FP5000's. I'm not sure how you are conditioning / using the output signal in your application? (I also use TJE / STJE series mV/V transducers, but usually only for pressures greater than 10,000 psi. I have a couple of 50,000 psi TJE's, and these track pretty reliably over a 5000 psi FP2000 on the same source). The FP2000 / FP5000 series are cheaper (but not cheap!), and more than good enough for every purpose I have encountered so far. You can find the datasheets for these online. They are configurable, so you specify all options (range, gauge/absolute/differential, amplifier type, temperature compensation, material, connector type, etc.) per the datasheet info and then get a quote for your desired part number(s). They are built to order, so typically a few weeks lead time. I purchase mine through Hoskin Scientific, but you may have different local distribution. Again, probably closer to $1000 than $100, but when accuracy / reliability count and the information is critical, going cheap doesn't save you anything. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >> >> Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 12:55:37 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:55:37 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > > I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. > > Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 15:04:38 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:04:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, Might be a false alarm.? As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v.? Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet.? Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC.? Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666.? This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale.? Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources.??14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 /?.0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi.? In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected.? So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones.? I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec.? If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi.? It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device.? I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements.? So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi.? I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. Jon?? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 15:05:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:05:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <0e0901d6602e$cf7769c0$6e663d40$@airesearch.nl> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <0e0901d6602e$cf7769c0$6e663d40$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: <1446368638.5655598.1595444703601@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Emile.? I'll check them out. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 09:50:24 AM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon, ? I just bought one ( 400 meter @ 0,1 meter reading) from RScomponents. I am no specialist but they have a lot of choise. ? Br,Emile ? Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 22 juli 2020 15:11 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer ? Sean, ? I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. ? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 15:14:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:14:33 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One obvious error source is that barometric pressures reported by weather sources correct the local pressure readings back to sea level (WGS 84 0'). You need to correct the reported pressure for your local altitude, or measure it directly using your own instrument. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > > Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. > > The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. > > The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. > > 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. > > I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. > > Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. > > Jon > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). > > You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. > > If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >> >> Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 15:14:52 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <1831972996.5668131.1595445292994@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, Since you might be interested. Devices are SSI Technologies P51-500-A-A-I36-5v-000-000 for water pressure and Honeywell?SSCDRNN030PAAA5 for cabin pressure. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 15:46:14 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:46:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > > Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. > > The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. > > The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. > > 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. > > I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. > > Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. > > Jon > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). > > You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. > > If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >> >> Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 16:28:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:28:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1907156691.5711305.1595449683147@mail.yahoo.com> It can be used differential or single-ended, if that's what you mean.? I'm using it as single-ended. On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 03:48:10 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, Might be a false alarm.? As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v.? Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet.? Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC.? Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666.? This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale.? Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources.??14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 /?.0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi.? In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected.? So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones.? I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec.? If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi.? It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device.? I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements.? So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi.? I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. Jon?? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 16:28:00 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:28:00 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry. The bipolar range is probably why you're using 15 bits instead of 16. Forget I said anything. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:46, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. > > Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. >> >> The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. >> >> The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. >> >> 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. >> >> I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. >> >> Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. >> >> Jon >> >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). >> >> You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. >> >> If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> >>> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >>> >>> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 16:30:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:30:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A06D9DA-E614-4810-9AE0-EA4F9B054551@yahoo.com> Jon, forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drums for cabin pressure! Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burst means something badly wrong! Alan > On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. > > Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. > > Sean > > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. > > The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. > > The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. > > 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. > > I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. > > Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. > > Jon > > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). > > You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. > > If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. > > Sean > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >> >> Jon > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 16:48:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:48:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1A06D9DA-E614-4810-9AE0-EA4F9B054551@yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> <1A06D9DA-E614-4810-9AE0-EA4F9B054551@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <263476305.5715507.1595450883794@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, Noted.? But a few points... 1.? I enjoy the challenge, and it's cool. 2.? I've been programming computers for 35+ years.? I refuse to ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, NEVER, let a machine best me.? I've dealt with some stubborn silicon in my time and have always ended up pinning it to the floor and beating it.? This is no time to give up.? :) 3. I'm invested enough both in time and money that it wouldn't make sense to give it up now.? Besides, my ego won't let me. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 04:32:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drumsfor cabin pressure!Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burstmeans something badly wrong!Alan On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, Might be a false alarm.? As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v.? Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet.? Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC.? Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666.? This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale.? Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources.??14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 /?.0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi.? In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected.? So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones.? I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec.? If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi.? It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device.? I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements.? So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi.? I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. Jon?? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 16:48:46 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 20:48:46 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <1907156691.5711305.1595449683147@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> <1907156691.5711305.1595449683147@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Single-ended usually refers to a measurement with respect to a common potential. For example, you could have one wire each from four different instruments if their signals were all referenced to the power supply common. That would be four single-ended channels. This is in contrast to differential measurements, which look only at the difference between the potentials of two wires per instrument. Differential signals can float with respect to the power supply common - it doesn't matter as long as they don't exceed the permissible common-mode voltage on the ADC, so you can mix and match different instruments with different power sources without introducing ground loops. Differential signals are also more immune to noise, as you can take advantage of things like twisted-pair cabling for noise rejection. The downside for your ADC is you only get half as many channels if you run them differentially versus single-ended. Bipolar versus unipolar has to do with the input range of the ADC. Typically, this will be bipolar such that it can measure e.g. from -10 V to +10 V with respect to the power supply common or average common-mode voltage, so your range in that case is actually 20 V, which means you can only use half of the range if your instrument signal is only 0V - 10V. On a 16 bit ADC, that is equivalent to a 15 bit conversion. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 14:28, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > It can be used differential or single-ended, if that's what you mean. I'm using it as single-ended. > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 03:48:10 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. > > Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. > > Sean > > Sent from ProtonMail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > Sean, > > Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. > > The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. > > The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. > > 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. > > I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. > > Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. > > Jon > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). > > You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. > > If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sean, >> >> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >> >> Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 17:29:53 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:29:53 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <263476305.5715507.1595450883794@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> <1A06D9DA-E614-4810-9AE0-EA4F9B054551@yahoo.com> <263476305.5715507.1595450883794@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0E99F867-77A5-435E-AA4D-729DB0B6C317@yahoo.com> Hi Jon, Just a dig at Alec & Hank. I am enjoying delving in to the technology side of subs. I have taken up building a hex copter as a hobby as I thought it would be compatible technology wise with my sub build. You may already be familiar with their flight controllers but here is a brief summary. The flight controllers have a number of gyroscopes, magnetometers, accelerometers, & barometers in them. I believe the barometers are accurate to 10cm (4"). The flight controller I'm using ( Pixhawke 2.4.8) cost $50, but there are others in the $ hundreds. The Arducopter firmware for the Pixhawk is open source & free, as is the highly configurable "Mission Planner" software. Mission Planner displays altitude, attitude, the level of the craft etc, with autonomous mission planning, but this relies mainly on GPS. There is "Ardusub" as part of the suite. The development of this is mainly through blue robotics, so aimed at ROVs & AUVs but may be able to be piggy backed in future as an instrument display for submarines. The Pixhawke has various ports for additional sensor inputs. You could set up a Pixhawke flight controller to fly your sub using a RC transmitter or a hard wired device that puts out a pwm signal, as long as your speed controller had a PWM input. This would give you external control of your sub as well as internal, also auto GPS hold if you wanted to leave your sub in the water while you parked your truck. BTW the taranis transmitters are highly configurable through "open Tx" firmware & software. Cheers Alan > On 23/07/2020, at 8:48 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Noted. But a few points... > > 1. I enjoy the challenge, and it's cool. > > 2. I've been programming computers for 35+ years. I refuse to ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, NEVER, let a machine best me. I've dealt with some stubborn silicon in my time and have always ended up pinning it to the floor and beating it. This is no time to give up. :) > > 3. I'm invested enough both in time and money that it wouldn't make sense to give it up now. Besides, my ego won't let me. > > Jon > > > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 04:32:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drums > for cabin pressure! > Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burst > means something badly wrong! > Alan > >> On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. >> >> Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. >> >> Sean >> >> >> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. >> >> The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. >> >> The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. >> >> 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. >> >> I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. >> >> Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). >> >> You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. >> >> If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >>> >>> Jon >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 18:15:48 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:15:48 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <0E99F867-77A5-435E-AA4D-729DB0B6C317@yahoo.com> References: <0E99F867-77A5-435E-AA4D-729DB0B6C317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, not true, I have two altimeters. Lol. Plus ear drums. Jon is a computer wizz- he is one of the few that can make electronics work in a Psub because it?s his thing. We work with what we know. Jon will be able to tell you if a mosquito passed wind in his K600 by the pressure change Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hi Jon, > Just a dig at Alec & Hank. > I am enjoying delving in to the technology side of subs. > I have taken up building a hex copter as a hobby as I thought it would be compatible technology wise with my sub build. You may already be familiar with their flight > controllers but here is a brief summary. > The flight controllers have a number of gyroscopes, magnetometers, accelerometers, > & barometers in them. I believe the barometers are accurate to 10cm (4"). > The flight controller I'm using ( Pixhawke 2.4.8) cost $50, but there are others in the $ hundreds. > The Arducopter firmware for the Pixhawk is open source & free, as is the highly configurable "Mission Planner" software. Mission Planner displays altitude, attitude, > the level of the craft etc, with autonomous mission planning, but this relies mainly > on GPS. > There is "Ardusub" as part of the suite. The development of this is mainly through > blue robotics, so aimed at ROVs & AUVs but may be able to be piggy backed in future > as an instrument display for submarines. The Pixhawke has various ports for > additional sensor inputs. > You could set up a Pixhawke flight controller to fly your sub using a RC transmitter > or a hard wired device that puts out a pwm signal, as long as your speed controller > had a PWM input. This would give you external control of your sub as well as internal, > also auto GPS hold if you wanted to leave your sub in the water while you parked > your truck. BTW the taranis transmitters are highly configurable through "open Tx" > firmware & software. > Cheers Alan > > > >> On 23/07/2020, at 8:48 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> Noted. But a few points... >> >> 1. I enjoy the challenge, and it's cool. >> >> 2. I've been programming computers for 35+ years. I refuse to ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, NEVER, let a machine best me. I've dealt with some stubborn silicon in my time and have always ended up pinning it to the floor and beating it. This is no time to give up. :) >> >> 3. I'm invested enough both in time and money that it wouldn't make sense to give it up now. Besides, my ego won't let me. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 04:32:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drums >> for cabin pressure! >> Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burst >> means something badly wrong! >> Alan >> >>> On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. >>> >>> Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Might be a false alarm. As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. >>> >>> The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v. Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet. Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. >>> >>> The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. >>> >>> 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC. Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666. This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. >>> >>> I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale. Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources. 14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 / .0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi. In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected. So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones. I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec. If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. >>> >>> Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi. It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device. I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements. So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi. I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer. Check that. There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). >>> >>> You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. >>> >>> If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply. If it's a bridge, that's even more critical. On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading. Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc. It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits. I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs. Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy. I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. >>>> >>>> Jon >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jul 22 23:24:17 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 03:24:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <0E99F867-77A5-435E-AA4D-729DB0B6C317@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <290756587.5874367.1595474657251@mail.yahoo.com> Don't you hate it when they do that.? :) On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 06:17:47 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?not true, ?I have two altimeters. Lol. Plus ear drums. ?Jon is a computer wizz- he is one of the few that can make electronics work in a ?Psub because it?s his thing. ?We work with what we know. ?Jon will be able to tell you if a mosquito passed wind in his K600 by the pressure change Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Jon,Just a dig at Alec & Hank.I am enjoying delving in to the technology side of subs.I have taken up building a hex copter as a hobby as I thought it would be compatible technology wise with my sub build. You may already be familiar with their flightcontrollers but here is a brief summary.The flight controllers have a number of gyroscopes, magnetometers, accelerometers,& barometers in them. I believe the barometers are accurate to 10cm (4").The flight controller I'm using ( Pixhawke 2.4.8) cost $50, but there are others in the $ hundreds.The Arducopter firmware for the Pixhawk is open source & free, as is the highly configurable "Mission Planner" software. Mission Planner displays altitude, attitude,the level of the craft etc, with autonomous mission planning, but this relies mainly?on GPS.There is "Ardusub" as part of the suite. The development of this is mainly throughblue robotics, so aimed at ROVs & AUVs but may be able to be piggy backed in futureas an instrument display for submarines. The Pixhawke has various ports foradditional sensor inputs.You could set up a Pixhawke flight controller to fly your sub using a RC transmitteror a hard wired device that puts out a pwm signal, as long as your speed controllerhad a PWM input. This would give you external control of your sub as well as internal,also auto GPS hold if you wanted to leave your sub in the water while you parkedyour truck. BTW the taranis transmitters are highly configurable through "open Tx"firmware & software.Cheers Alan On 23/07/2020, at 8:48 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Noted.? But a few points... 1.? I enjoy the challenge, and it's cool. 2.? I've been programming computers for 35+ years.? I refuse to ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, NEVER, let a machine best me.? I've dealt with some stubborn silicon in my time and have always ended up pinning it to the floor and beating it.? This is no time to give up.? :) 3. I'm invested enough both in time and money that it wouldn't make sense to give it up now.? Besides, my ego won't let me. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 04:32:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drumsfor cabin pressure!Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burstmeans something badly wrong!Alan On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, Might be a false alarm.? As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v.? Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet.? Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC.? Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666.? This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale.? Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources.??14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 /?.0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi.? In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected.? So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones.? I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec.? If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi.? It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device.? I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements.? So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi.? I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. Jon?? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 04:49:57 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:49:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra References: <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3@yahoo.com> Hi Keith, are you out there? You made mention of an upcoming Triton dive of the Niagra. I see that the 6711 Geo is in town with a Triton 3000 on board & presume this Is the dive boat. Are you having an involvement in this? Do you have contacts on the 6711 Geo? Dr Ingrid Visser the Orca expert is keen to contact someone re talking about Orca research & potential dives of some of the sea mounts that the Orca frequent. She has had contact with Triton before & there were talks about a potential Antarctic dive. Is this primarily a research vessel thanks? We know very little! Cheers Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 07:40:40 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:40:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <290756587.5874367.1595474657251@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0E99F867-77A5-435E-AA4D-729DB0B6C317@yahoo.com> <290756587.5874367.1595474657251@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1154451291.5977066.1595504440328@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, I wouldn't know, my pressure measurement system can't detect it , hahahahaHank On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 9:24:36 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Don't you hate it when they do that.? :) On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 06:17:47 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, ?not true, ?I have two altimeters. Lol. Plus ear drums. ?Jon is a computer wizz- he is one of the few that can make electronics work in a ?Psub because it?s his thing. ?We work with what we know. ?Jon will be able to tell you if a mosquito passed wind in his K600 by the pressure change Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Jon,Just a dig at Alec & Hank.I am enjoying delving in to the technology side of subs.I have taken up building a hex copter as a hobby as I thought it would be compatible technology wise with my sub build. You may already be familiar with their flightcontrollers but here is a brief summary.The flight controllers have a number of gyroscopes, magnetometers, accelerometers,& barometers in them. I believe the barometers are accurate to 10cm (4").The flight controller I'm using ( Pixhawke 2.4.8) cost $50, but there are others in the $ hundreds.The Arducopter firmware for the Pixhawk is open source & free, as is the highly configurable "Mission Planner" software. Mission Planner displays altitude, attitude,the level of the craft etc, with autonomous mission planning, but this relies mainly?on GPS.There is "Ardusub" as part of the suite. The development of this is mainly throughblue robotics, so aimed at ROVs & AUVs but may be able to be piggy backed in futureas an instrument display for submarines. The Pixhawke has various ports foradditional sensor inputs.You could set up a Pixhawke flight controller to fly your sub using a RC transmitteror a hard wired device that puts out a pwm signal, as long as your speed controllerhad a PWM input. This would give you external control of your sub as well as internal,also auto GPS hold if you wanted to leave your sub in the water while you parkedyour truck. BTW the taranis transmitters are highly configurable through "open Tx"firmware & software.Cheers Alan On 23/07/2020, at 8:48 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, Noted.? But a few points... 1.? I enjoy the challenge, and it's cool. 2.? I've been programming computers for 35+ years.? I refuse to ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, NEVER, let a machine best me.? I've dealt with some stubborn silicon in my time and have always ended up pinning it to the floor and beating it.? This is no time to give up.? :) 3. I'm invested enough both in time and money that it wouldn't make sense to give it up now.? Besides, my ego won't let me. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 04:32:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,forget the calibration & decimal points, Alec & Hank just use their ear drumsfor cabin pressure!Popping means negative pressure, painful means positive pressure & burstmeans something badly wrong!Alan On 23/07/2020, at 7:46 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 0.5% full scale on a 500 psia transducer is 2.5 psi, which corresponds to a little over 5.75 ffw. I respectfully suggest that this may not be a sufficiently accurate transducer for the application, depending on whether that error is predominately scale error, or offset. Also, check the error plots on the ADC datasheet. Total error will be cumulative: transducer error plus (or multiplied by) ADC error. Unless I'm reading the datasheet incorrectly, it also looks like full scale is +/- 6.144 V (bipolar) on that ADC. Step resolution in that case is [(6.144 - (-)6.144)/(2^15 -1)]. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 22, 2020, 13:04, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, Might be a false alarm.? As I was writing a detailed report for you I realized the discrepancy is looking like only 1.97 psi which is within the specs of the .5% full scale accuracy. The transducer is 500 psia, 1-5v analog output with 0 psi at 1v.? Three wires (power, ground, output), length of 3 feet.? Data sheet accuracy is published as .5% full scale. The ADC is ADS1115 (sourced through Adafruit) and configured for a range of 0-6.144v. 6.144/32768 = .0001875 v per step over the full range of the ADC.? Mathematically that puts 1v around step 5333 and 5v around step 26666.? This then provides a range of 21,333 steps for the PSI range, or .0234378662166596 psi per step assuming linear consistency. I'm simply testing atmospheric pressure, obviously at the low end of the transducers scale.? Confirmed pressure of 14.7 via multiple weather sources.??14.7 psi should produce an ADC output of around 5960 calculated as 14.7 /?.0234378662166596 = 627 steps, and then added to the base 5333 representing 0 psi.? In reality I am seeing the ADC produce 5878 which is 82 steps or 1.947 psi less than expected.? So this is an almost 4.5 foot depth discrepancy that will be more noticeable at shallower depths than deeper ones.? I thought it was a lot more than that which had me frustrated, but after reviewing the numbers for the 498th time it looks like the transducer is reporting within spec.? If you feel like doing the math I'd appreciate confirmation. Through empirical testing I have been able to adjust software to "calibrate" the water depth transducer to 14.7 psi.? It matches almost exactly to two decimal places my analog 0-60 psi Honeywell cabin pressure device.? I've also tested my software calibration with an air tank pressurized up to 50psi and have found that to be nearly perfect as well, at least within two decimal places which exceeds my requirements.? So the software calibration may give me the accuracy I need, I'm just not sure it will translate accurately all the way up to 500 psi.? I'll have to build a smaller, simpler, display unit and find someone with a pressure tank that can take the transducer up to it's limits. Jon?? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 12:57:32 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon - What are the specs on your SSI transducer?? Are you using voltage, current or unamplified?? 15 bits on 500 psia should give you 0.01526 psi resolution, provided the input range of your signal conditioner matches the output range of the transducer.? Check that.? There could be a range mismatch, and possibly a unipolar / bipolar mismatch which would double the achievable step size (e.g. if that 15 bits corresponds to -10 V to 10 V, but the transducer signal is unipolar etc.). You will likely see some temperature drift if the transducer is not temperature compensated within the range of service conditions, and I would also check for grounding of the transducer body, and shielding of the signal cable if it is not 4-20 mA. If it is a current transducer, is it loop-powered or independently powered?? If it is amplifed (voltage or current signal), check the stability of your power supply.? If it's a bridge, that's even more critical.? On the signal processing side, check how you are obtaining the reading.? Acquisition frequency of the ADC vs display update frequency, etc.? It could be that a lowpass filter on the measurement will make it behave better. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:11 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I think you've talked about sourcing pressure transducers in the past, do you have any recommendations for ones that you have found reliable?? I'm getting quite frustrated trying to interface the SSI Technologies P51 series with a 16-bit ADC (using 15 bits) and unable to get results that are anywhere close to my calculated/expected results even considering worst case accuracy limits.? I don't mind paying more for a sensor that is going to perform close to it's datasheet specs.? Specifically, looking for 500 psia with .5% or better accuracy.? I'd prefer .25% or better accuracy but can live with .5%. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 08:55:37 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:55:37 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Message-ID: Alan, What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 15:43:05 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 07:43:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, thanks. Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft. Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that they frequent to see what they are feeding on. Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding. In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so are heading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away. When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they were heading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recently with an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10. Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into position than something like a Triton submersible. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > Brian > > > Get Outlook for Android > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 16:27:43 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:27:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1324744069.6285728.1595536063430@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ?Hank On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian, thanks.Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft.Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that theyfrequent to see what they are feeding on.?Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding.In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so areheading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away.When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they wereheading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recentlywith an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10.Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into?position than something like a Triton submersible.Alan? On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 16:48:10 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 08:48:10 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: <1324744069.6285728.1595536063430@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1324744069.6285728.1595536063430@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, we used to have the Antipodes operating commercially as a tourist sub but now I only know of two possible operational submersibles. One is Hugh's Com sub, however he said he had a buyer a while back, the other belonged to a guy called Graeme Hart who kept it on his Super yacht; but that was up for sale. There could well be none as the navy doesn't have any! I better get my ambient back up & running! It's a hard grind down here! If you mention submarine you may as well be saying UFO. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 8:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ? > Hank > > On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Brian, thanks. > Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft. > Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that they > frequent to see what they are feeding on. > Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding. > In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so are > heading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away. > When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they were > heading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recently > with an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10. > Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into > position than something like a Triton submersible. > Alan > > >> On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> > > Alan, > > What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > Brian > > > Get Outlook for Android >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 17:17:03 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:17:03 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3@yahoo.com> References: <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3.ref@yahoo.com> <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <713C236C-F6EF-42CE-9404-CC78574D9324@xtra.co.nz> Yes still here Alan and still following PSUBS with interest. The Covid-19 virus lockdown cancelled the sub dives on Niagara and other projects, also Triton people were to come from USA to train the Triton owner's people but the virus situation has delayed that. The vessel the Dapple was still here when I last checked - google Dapple for vessel info there. Not sure if the projects are to be resurrected at present. As soon as we went to Stage 2 lockdown we were back on the water with a ROV - you will have seen media results of our resulting Ventnor shipwreck discovery I know Ingrid well and of her Orca interests. Cheers Keith On 23/07/2020, at 8:49 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Keith, are you out there? > You made mention of an upcoming Triton dive of the Niagra. > I see that the 6711 Geo is in town with a Triton 3000 on board & presume this > Is the dive boat. > Are you having an involvement in this? Do you have contacts on the 6711 Geo? > Dr Ingrid Visser the Orca expert is keen to contact someone re talking about > Orca research & potential dives of some of the sea mounts that the Orca frequent. > She has had contact with Triton before & there were talks about a potential Antarctic > dive. > Is this primarily a research vessel thanks? We know very little! > Cheers Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 17:46:28 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:46:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: References: <1324744069.6285728.1595536063430@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, I met Ingrid years ago at the Blue Ocean event in Monterey. Taking the SeaQuestor to NZ and observing the Orca's with Ingrid is something we spoke about to do once we are finished the build. Might get to see you in a couple of years. . Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:49 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, > we used to have the Antipodes operating commercially as a tourist sub but > now I only know of two possible operational submersibles. > One is Hugh's Com sub, however he said he had a buyer a while back, the > other > belonged to a guy called Graeme Hart who kept it on his Super yacht; but > that > was up for sale. > There could well be none as the navy doesn't have any! > I better get my ambient back up & running! > It's a hard grind down here! If you mention submarine you may as well be > saying > UFO. > Alan > > > On 24/07/2020, at 8:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ? > Hank > > On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Brian, thanks. > Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft. > Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that they > frequent to see what they are feeding on. > Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours > feeding. > In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so are > heading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away. > When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they > were > heading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recently > with an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10. > Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into > position than something like a Triton submersible. > Alan > > > On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan, > > What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out > at: > > https://www.innerspacescience.org/ > > Brian > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 18:17:02 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:17:02 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Message-ID: <4978765.4042.1595542622327@wamui-pluto.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 19:39:48 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:39:48 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: <713C236C-F6EF-42CE-9404-CC78574D9324@xtra.co.nz> References: <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3.ref@yahoo.com> <4B45AAF3-7F6E-47BE-9CF7-A389BAE788D3@yahoo.com> <713C236C-F6EF-42CE-9404-CC78574D9324@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <283C6EF8-0103-4C38-AC60-CDBD7D61343F@yahoo.com> Hi Keith, thanks for the info & congratulations on the wreck discovery. An unusual cargo, 500 dead Chinese being returned to China. The cargo of gold on the Niagra is a bit more appealing. I had a look for the Dapple & got told off for going on the pier :(, I held the security gate open for someone & thought this was a good opportunity to get through. When Triton was here on the Alucia I just rocked up & they showed me around. Apparently they don't have sub pilots on board & are sub contracting the piloting of the sub. I do now have an email contact. Cheers Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 9:17 AM, Keith Gordon via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Yes still here Alan and still following PSUBS with interest. > > The Covid-19 virus lockdown cancelled the sub dives on Niagara and other projects, also Triton people were to come from USA to train the Triton owner's people but the virus situation has delayed that. The vessel the Dapple was still here when I last checked - google Dapple for vessel info there. Not sure if the projects are to be resurrected at present. > As soon as we went to Stage 2 lockdown we were back on the water with a ROV - you will have seen media results of our resulting Ventnor shipwreck discovery > I know Ingrid well and of her Orca interests. > > Cheers > Keith >> On 23/07/2020, at 8:49 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Keith, are you out there? >> You made mention of an upcoming Triton dive of the Niagra. >> I see that the 6711 Geo is in town with a Triton 3000 on board & presume this >> Is the dive boat. >> Are you having an involvement in this? Do you have contacts on the 6711 Geo? >> Dr Ingrid Visser the Orca expert is keen to contact someone re talking about >> Orca research & potential dives of some of the sea mounts that the Orca frequent. >> She has had contact with Triton before & there were talks about a potential Antarctic >> dive. >> Is this primarily a research vessel thanks? We know very little! >> Cheers Alan >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 19:44:35 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:44:35 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: References: <1324744069.6285728.1595536063430@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David, she is a busy woman, full of energy. She dives & snorkels with the Orca. You wouldn't catch me doing that, all you would need is for one of the babies to think you were a bath toy & you would be history. Might be cheaper for her to fly to California for a dive in your sub. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 9:46 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I met Ingrid years ago at the Blue Ocean event in Monterey. Taking the SeaQuestor to NZ and observing the Orca's with Ingrid is something we spoke about to do once we are finished the build. Might get to see you in a couple of years. > . > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:49 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hank, >> we used to have the Antipodes operating commercially as a tourist sub but >> now I only know of two possible operational submersibles. >> One is Hugh's Com sub, however he said he had a buyer a while back, the other >> belonged to a guy called Graeme Hart who kept it on his Super yacht; but that >> was up for sale. >> There could well be none as the navy doesn't have any! >> I better get my ambient back up & running! >> It's a hard grind down here! If you mention submarine you may as well be saying >> UFO. >> Alan >> >> >>> On 24/07/2020, at 8:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ? >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Brian, thanks. >>> Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft. >>> Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that they >>> frequent to see what they are feeding on. >>> Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding. >>> In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so are >>> heading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away. >>> When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they were >>> heading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recently >>> with an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10. >>> Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into >>> position than something like a Triton submersible. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>>> On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: >>> >>> https://www.innerspacescience.org/ >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 20:29:51 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:29:51 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: <4978765.4042.1595542622327@wamui-pluto.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4978765.4042.1595542622327@wamui-pluto.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Ian, this is the boat. https://vimeo.com/279022294 Registered in the Marshall Islands, but I haven't been able to find out who owns it. It may be a support vessel for the Rocinate, owned by Billionaire Emilio Fernando Azc?rraga Jean III. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 10:17 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > It would certainly be nice to have a super yacht for transporting subs! > Wish I could afford $300(usd) per mile fuel bill..... > > If you click on the "deck plans" you can see the sub on the port side around the other vessels the super yacht carries: > https://www.fraseryachts.com/en/yacht-for-sale/grand-rusalina/ > From the photos/video, I don't think the sub is still on the vessel, looks like it may have been replaced by a larger boat > (or maybe just hidden from view). > > Cheers, > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Jul 23, 2020 1:48 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra > > Hank, > we used to have the Antipodes operating commercially as a tourist sub but > now I only know of two possible operational submersibles. > One is Hugh's Com sub, however he said he had a buyer a while back, the other > belonged to a guy called Graeme Hart who kept it on his Super yacht; but that > was up for sale. > There could well be none as the navy doesn't have any! > I better get my ambient back up & running! > It's a hard grind down here! If you mention submarine you may as well be saying > UFO. > Alan > > >> On 24/07/2020, at 8:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ? >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Brian, thanks. >> Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft. >> Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that they >> frequent to see what they are feeding on. >> Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding. >> In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so are >> heading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away. >> When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they were >> heading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recently >> with an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10. >> Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into >> position than something like a Triton submersible. >> Alan >> >> >>> On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> >> What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: >> >> https://www.innerspacescience.org/ >> >> Brian >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 20:53:47 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:53:47 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Message-ID: <772936307.4655.1595552027738@wamui-pluto.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 21:12:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:12:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202007240329.06O3TD12084797@whoweb.com> Trust me as a former yacht owner, fuel? is the cheapest cost. 1. (A) staff, captain, etc. ? ? (B) maintenance, paint, repairs, yard fees, equipment repair/ upgrades, etc. 2. Insurance? 3. Berthing 4. Fuel And the bigger the boat the more $$$$ it costs. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Date: 7/23/20 5:29 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Ian,this is the boat.https://vimeo.com/279022294Registered in the Marshall Islands, but I haven't been able to find out who owns it.It may be a support vessel for the Rocinate, owned by Billionaire?Emilio Fernando Azc?rraga Jean III.Alan On 24/07/2020, at 10:17 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It would certainly be nice to have a super yacht for transporting subs!Wish I could afford $300(usd) per mile fuel bill..... If you click on the "deck plans" you can see the sub on the port side around the other vessels the super yacht carries: https://www.fraseryachts.com/en/yacht-for-sale/grand-rusalina/From the photos/video, I don't think the sub is still on the vessel, looks like it may have been replaced by a larger boat(or maybe just hidden from view). Cheers,? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jul 23, 2020 1:48 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Hank,we used to have the Antipodes operating commercially as a tourist sub butnow I only know of two possible operational submersibles.?One is Hugh's Com sub, however he said he had a buyer a while back, the otherbelonged to a guy called Graeme Hart who kept it on his Super yacht; but thatwas up for sale.?There could well be none as the navy doesn't have any!I better get my ambient back up & running!?It's a hard grind down here! If you mention submarine you may as well be sayingUFO.Alan On 24/07/2020, at 8:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, are there any operating P subs in NZ?Hank On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 1:43:31 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian, thanks.Although the Orca can dive to 800ft they usually don't dive beyond 300ft.Ingrid is interested in observing them at a couple of sea mounts that theyfrequent to see what they are feeding on.?Most of the time in NZ they are spotted moving in & out of harbours feeding.In NZ & nowhere else they have developed a taste for stingray liver, so areheading in to the shallows extracting the livers & throwing the rest away.When they are on the move it would be difficult to anticipate where they wereheading & then put a submersible in their path. I spent some time recentlywith an inflatable in tow trying to intercept a group of 10.Our smaller submersibles would certainly be easier & quicker to get into?position than something like a Triton submersible.Alan? On 24/07/2020, at 12:55 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, What sort of depths and science missions are you considering? Check us out at: https://www.innerspacescience.org/ Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jul 23 21:59:27 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:59:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Keith Gordon, diving Niagra Message-ID: <940511905.4906.1595555967527@wamui-pluto.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 05:38:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:38:08 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... Message-ID: Hi all. Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board Jodie b.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20200724-WA0004.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1230683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 06:25:18 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 22:25:18 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great shot, all the best with the dive. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 9:38 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all. > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board Jodie b.... > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 07:39:04 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:39:04 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Diving done all ok. Just waiting for the tide to go out for recovery. On Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 11:26 Alan via Personal_Submersibles, < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Great shot, > all the best with the dive. > Alan > > > On 24/07/2020, at 9:38 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all. > > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board > Jodie b.... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 07:39:40 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:39:40 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops forgot the picture. On Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 11:26 Alan via Personal_Submersibles, < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Great shot, > all the best with the dive. > Alan > > > On 24/07/2020, at 9:38 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all. > > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board > Jodie b.... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200724_123810.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3398102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 07:44:27 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:44:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1058465244.6554763.1595591067578@mail.yahoo.com> James,Always cool to see dive pictures.Hank On Friday, July 24, 2020, 5:40:45 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Oops forgot the picture. On Fri, 24 Jul 2020, 11:26 Alan via Personal_Submersibles, wrote: Great shot, all the best with the dive. Alan > On 24/07/2020, at 9:38 PM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all. > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board Jodie b.... > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 08:28:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 07:28:08 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04024DD6-67BB-4098-971A-09839EEAA4A5@gmail.com> James, where is the dive location? Cliff Sent from my iPad > On Jul 24, 2020, at 4:38 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all. > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board Jodie b.... > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 14:29:05 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:29:05 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) References: Message-ID: Sub fits just nice on the deck Hank -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2500.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1444979 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 15:21:05 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 07:21:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> Great Hank, the boat is bigger than I thought. Are you going to weld any guides to the floor? Angled guides to bring it central when winching in & guides either side to stop it sliding sideways. Alan > On 25/07/2020, at 6:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sub fits just nice on the deck > Hank > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 15:33:30 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:33:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> References: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, thanks. ?I am still working out the loading part. ?I am now thinking a ramp that tools out then tips way down into the water. ?It will have tie down anchors welded on yet.Hank On Friday, July 24, 2020, 1:21:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great Hank, the boat is bigger than I thought. Are you going to weld any guides to the floor? Angled guides to bring it central when winching in & guides either side to stop it sliding sideways. Alan > On 25/07/2020, at 6:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sub fits just nice on the deck > Hank > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 15:40:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 20:40:08 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: <04024DD6-67BB-4098-971A-09839EEAA4A5@gmail.com> References: <04024DD6-67BB-4098-971A-09839EEAA4A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Hank, Cliff, All. Dive location is here on Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK. Dives were good. Did several dives, 30-40 minutes each. Just got back from putting everything away. Takes a while on my own. I will put some footage together next week. Regards James On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 13:28, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > James, where is the dive location? > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jul 24, 2020, at 4:38 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all. > > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board > Jodie b.... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 15:54:40 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 15:54:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337C40BC-E395-4D34-BA3E-201D1EF5DAF8@gmail.com> This is getting really interesting! The on/off mechanism is quite a challenge, and I can?t wait to see what you come up with. Both sub and boat look terrific. Minor question... aren?t those plywood sides on the boat going to hate getting soaked? Best, Alec > On Jul 24, 2020, at 2:31 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Sub fits just nice on the deck > Hank > > > > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 17:03:46 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:03:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CA3F2E1-1972-452B-8ADD-16B4174AA777@yahoo.com> Hank, I was thinking of guides to keep it central so the sub doesn't get a chance to slip to the side of the boat with wave motion etc. at any stage while hauling it on board. But it might be a case of trying things out in perfect conditions first & seeing what might be appropriate for rougher conditions. Cheers Alan > On 25/07/2020, at 7:33 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, thanks. I am still working out the loading part. I am now thinking a ramp that tools out then tips way down into the water. > It will have tie down anchors welded on yet. > Hank > > On Friday, July 24, 2020, 1:21:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Great Hank, > the boat is bigger than I thought. > Are you going to weld any guides to the floor? Angled guides to bring it > central when winching in & guides either side to stop it sliding sideways. > Alan > > > On 25/07/2020, at 6:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Sub fits just nice on the deck > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 17:12:08 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:12:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <037A6E42-D7A4-44C9-B088-6F31D898D44F@yahoo.com> Hank, how are you going to get it off? You said you were forgetting the A frame idea. Maybe you could have turned the back of the boat in to a couple of large ballast tanks & tipped the whole boat. Alan > On 25/07/2020, at 7:33 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, thanks. I am still working out the loading part. I am now thinking a ramp that tools out then tips way down into the water. > It will have tie down anchors welded on yet. > Hank > > On Friday, July 24, 2020, 1:21:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Great Hank, > the boat is bigger than I thought. > Are you going to weld any guides to the floor? Angled guides to bring it > central when winching in & guides either side to stop it sliding sideways. > Alan > > > On 25/07/2020, at 6:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Sub fits just nice on the deck > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 17:20:59 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 21:20:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <337C40BC-E395-4D34-BA3E-201D1EF5DAF8@gmail.com> References: <337C40BC-E395-4D34-BA3E-201D1EF5DAF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93354310.6829946.1595625659948@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, thanks' ?the plywood sides will be painted both sides and edges. ?They are sacrificial and should last a few years. ?It is a weight thing and cost. ?Same with the wood rub rails. ?I need a soft edge in case I touch a pretty fibreglass boat lol.I expect to be sailing in the spring and can transport the sub on the boat deck. ?I will launch the boat with the sub on deck. ?I bought a late model one ton dually to pull it around.Hank On Friday, July 24, 2020, 1:54:58 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This is getting really interesting! The on/off mechanism is quite a challenge, and I can?t wait to see what you come up with. Both sub and boat look terrific. Minor question... aren?t those plywood sides on the boat going to hate getting soaked? Best, Alec > On Jul 24, 2020, at 2:31 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Sub fits just nice on the deck > Hank > > > > > Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 17:22:57 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 21:22:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <037A6E42-D7A4-44C9-B088-6F31D898D44F@yahoo.com> References: <3961A7EA-42CB-4C90-8396-228F48FABCC5@yahoo.com> <1309218058.6775559.1595619210535@mail.yahoo.com> <037A6E42-D7A4-44C9-B088-6F31D898D44F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <374983896.6837761.1595625777416@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I was thinking about a lift gate off a 5 ton moving van, but now am leaning towards a hydraulic tilt ramp that extends out the front.I will sort it out.Hank On Friday, July 24, 2020, 3:12:29 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,how are you going to get it off? You said you were forgetting the A frame idea.Maybe you could have turned the back of the boat in to a couple of largeballast tanks & tipped the whole boat.Alan On 25/07/2020, at 7:33 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, thanks. ?I am still working out the loading part. ?I am now thinking a ramp that tools out then tips way down into the water. ?It will have tie down anchors welded on yet.Hank On Friday, July 24, 2020, 1:21:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great Hank, the boat is bigger than I thought. Are you going to weld any guides to the floor? Angled guides to bring it central when winching in & guides either side to stop it sliding sideways. Alan > On 25/07/2020, at 6:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sub fits just nice on the deck > Hank > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 21:45:09 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 15:45:09 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Live... In-Reply-To: References: <04024DD6-67BB-4098-971A-09839EEAA4A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Glad you got her out James as I know it is quite a chore where you are and you did such a nice job on building her! Rick On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 9:41 AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alan, Hank, Cliff, All. > > Dive location is here on Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK. > Dives were good. Did several dives, 30-40 minutes each. Just got back > from putting everything away. Takes a while on my own. > I will put some footage together next week. > Regards > James > > On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 13:28, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> James, where is the dive location? >> >> Cliff >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Jul 24, 2020, at 4:38 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> > >> > Hi all. >> > Just killing some time waiting for the tide. So live pic from on board >> Jodie b.... >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 21:46:32 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 01:46:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <198065633.6931211.1595641592584@mail.yahoo.com> Turns out this issue was nothing more than miscalculating the 1ATM point of the sensor because it is an absolute gauge.? I got that sorted out and was able to do some real world testing from 100psi to 1psi and the sensor is spot on with the calculated values for the transducer, as well as two other analog gauges used for comparison.? Quite happy with it now. Jon On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 03:16:22 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: One obvious error source is that barometric pressures reported by weather sources correct the local pressure readings back to sea level (WGS 84 0'). You need to correct the reported pressure for your local altitude, or measure it directly using your own instrument. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jul 24 22:11:48 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 02:11:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure Transducer In-Reply-To: <198065633.6931211.1595641592584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1990864904.5427241.1595423476063@mail.yahoo.com> <991alO4xs0_QxEN15xIPaXka12Y-DlMt_qGvxbek6Y2Nx7Qb20gFDGG2YgYh4nGneOMxkUr1arAEH0F8rQUxUy0WSiTM_TWBeKe7PsfUKDw=@protonmail.com> <1055428314.5646484.1595444678867@mail.yahoo.com> <198065633.6931211.1595641592584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Glad to hear that you got it sorted out. Sensor gremlins can be frustrating. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 24, 2020, 19:46, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Turns out this issue was nothing more than miscalculating the 1ATM point of the sensor because it is an absolute gauge. I got that sorted out and was able to do some real world testing from 100psi to 1psi and the sensor is spot on with the calculated values for the transducer, as well as two other analog gauges used for comparison. Quite happy with it now. > > Jon > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 03:16:22 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > One obvious error source is that barometric pressures reported by weather sources correct the local pressure readings back to sea level (WGS 84 0'). You need to correct the reported pressure for your local altitude, or measure it directly using your own instrument. > > Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 25 08:11:33 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 12:11:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] All done for now References: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712@mail.yahoo.com> | | | | | | | | | | | Finished Homemade Submarine Full Tour | | | My new sub is ready for manned dives. ?I am waiting for prop guards, but other than that-I am calling it ready to go.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 25 10:32:39 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 14:32:39 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] All done for now In-Reply-To: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712@mail.yahoo.com> References: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <475863590.7002325.1595679093712@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Great video Hank. One thing that stands out as a potential problem though, are the tabs that the bumper stops are mounted to on your swinging ballast tanks. Given their size and orientation, it looks like the base welds there might be subject to a fair bit of force, and cycling (fatigue inducing) at that. I might be inclined to weld in some sort of webs or gussets to stiffen those tabs. Also, you mention that the skids can be jettisoned. Can you elaborate on how that works? Do you become severely positively buoyant when that happens? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2020, 06:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HmyyLol294 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HmyyLol294 > > Finished Homemade Submarine Full Tour > > My new sub is ready for manned dives. I am waiting for prop guards, but other than that-I am calling it ready to go. > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 25 13:49:55 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 17:49:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] All done for now In-Reply-To: References: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <475863590.7002325.1595679093712@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2122171759.7090473.1595699395819@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, thank you, you have a very good eye. ?A gusset is a good idea-I was just lazy and figured the tube its welded to is pretty heavy duty.The chassis is jettisoning and is operated by rotating a through hull shaft. ?Given the limited space and the fact that the mechanism is behind the seat-there is a permanent 1\2 inch drive ratchet connected to the rotating release. ?The sub will loose about 500 lbs, but it could be more. ?I have to put it back in the pool to re-load weight. ?I am worried the sub will come up inverted when the chassis is dropped. ?The good thing is, if I impact with the Landing Craft from dropping the chassis , it will hit the bottom of the sphere not the acrylic cylinder.Hank On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 8:33:02 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great video Hank. One thing that stands out as a potential problem though, are the tabs that the bumper stops are mounted to on your swinging ballast tanks. Given their size and orientation, it looks like the base welds there might be subject to a fair bit of force, and cycling (fatigue inducing) at that. I might be inclined to weld in some sort of webs or gussets to stiffen those tabs. Also, you mention that the skids can be jettisoned. Can you elaborate on how that works? Do you become severely positively buoyant when that happens? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2020, 06:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: | | | | | | | | | | | Finished Homemade Submarine Full Tour | | | My new sub is ready for manned dives. ?I am waiting for prop guards, but other than that-I am calling it ready to go.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 25 14:09:36 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:09:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] All done for now In-Reply-To: <2122171759.7090473.1595699395819@mail.yahoo.com> References: <475863590.7002325.1595679093712.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <475863590.7002325.1595679093712@mail.yahoo.com> <2122171759.7090473.1595699395819@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd be careful with that. Per ABS, inverted surfacing is not permitted, and you need to be able to egress. Coming up right under the boat is probably pretty unlikely. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jul. 25, 2020, 11:49, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, thank you, you have a very good eye. A gusset is a good idea-I was just lazy and figured the tube its welded to is pretty heavy duty. > The chassis is jettisoning and is operated by rotating a through hull shaft. Given the limited space and the fact that the mechanism is behind the seat-there is a permanent 1\2 inch drive ratchet connected to the rotating release. The sub will loose about 500 lbs, but it could be more. I have to put it back in the pool to re-load weight. I am worried the sub will come up inverted when the chassis is dropped. The good thing is, if I impact with the Landing Craft from dropping the chassis , it will hit the bottom of the sphere not the acrylic cylinder. > Hank > > On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 8:33:02 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Great video Hank. One thing that stands out as a potential problem though, are the tabs that the bumper stops are mounted to on your swinging ballast tanks. Given their size and orientation, it looks like the base welds there might be subject to a fair bit of force, and cycling (fatigue inducing) at that. I might be inclined to weld in some sort of webs or gussets to stiffen those tabs. > > Also, you mention that the skids can be jettisoned. Can you elaborate on how that works? Do you become severely positively buoyant when that happens? > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 25, 2020, 06:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HmyyLol294 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HmyyLol294 > > Finished Homemade Submarine Full Tour > > My new sub is ready for manned dives. I am waiting for prop guards, but other than that-I am calling it ready to go. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jul 25 14:52:13 2020 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 12:52:13 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] All done for now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FCF1AC4-6894-4988-BD6E-5A9E0E845FA8@yahoo.ca> I don?t like the idea at all. I need to do some pool testing. Maybe I can move some ballast weight to the hull to lighten the chassis. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?I'd be careful with that. Per ABS, inverted surfacing is not permitted, and you need to be able to egress. Coming up right under the boat is probably pretty unlikely. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 25, 2020, 11:49, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, thank you, you have a very good eye. A gusset is a good idea-I was just lazy and figured the tube its welded to is pretty heavy duty. > The chassis is jettisoning and is operated by rotating a through hull shaft. Given the limited space and the fact that the mechanism is behind the seat-there is a permanent 1\2 inch drive ratchet connected to the rotating release. The sub will loose about 500 lbs, but it could be more. I have to put it back in the pool to re-load weight. I am worried the sub will come up inverted when the chassis is dropped. The good thing is, if I impact with the Landing Craft from dropping the chassis , it will hit the bottom of the sphere not the acrylic cylinder. > Hank > > > On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 8:33:02 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Great video Hank. One thing that stands out as a potential problem though, are the tabs that the bumper stops are mounted to on your swinging ballast tanks. Given their size and orientation, it looks like the base welds there might be subject to a fair bit of force, and cycling (fatigue inducing) at that. I might be inclined to weld in some sort of webs or gussets to stiffen those tabs. > > Also, you mention that the skids can be jettisoned. Can you elaborate on how that works? Do you become severely positively buoyant when that happens? > > Sean > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jul. 25, 2020, 06:11, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Finished Homemade Submarine Full Tour > > > My new sub is ready for manned dives. I am waiting for prop guards, but other than that-I am calling it ready to go. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: