From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 05:03:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 11:03:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. The other ones are sealed. I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 06:44:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 22:44:00 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. Alan > On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. > > I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. > But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. > We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole > from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. > > In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. > This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. > > No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. > The other ones are sealed. > > I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. > Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. > The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. > If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call > - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 > Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 09:32:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 15:32:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1556717578675.2816501.5a05a7b1ea7569aa737b632b6a349ea1721ff54a@spica.telekom.de> Alan, you are right, today the military submariener use escape suits to give them termal protection. The simple reson is that the may wait long on the surface. If you have a space?ous submarine - you can storage dry or wet divers suit there- but for the most 1-3 person subs that is no option. On Sgt.Peppers even a Steinke Hoods was no option. But if this is no option because the lack of space - delete it from the list. So what can stay? - Old Steinke hoods, - new BCD and - normal dive gear. - Relaseable dome as Breathing parachute Normal dive gear give you no extra lift - which is the most important factor to prevent longer breathing in the depth and get decommprsion thickness. The recommdation of the old video are for military submarines which have a LP hose and a exit chamber. In a small Psub I would wear the Steinke hood. Breathing with the snorckel valve of the hood from the inside of the submarine. Flood and compress the sub. Inflate the hood by LP hose or if not available do the job via the inflator hose. Using the inflator hose is secondary -better use the LP hose if availabe. If you have to use the inflator tube this means to open the zipper of the hood - which is on such a old device a risk on its own. I fogot to mention that on our Steinke hoods we not only rebuild the neck scirt, we also exchange the inflator adapter from the militar one to a scua diver LP connector. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdIleUORf0I On 0:40 you can see how much force air and water did to your head. Even a divers mask can easy fly away. (See at 3:;00) But a Steinke Hood gives your head some protection. On 1:42 you can see the me useing a divers old style BCD. And yes I breathe from the unit and I am still fine. :-) Another BCD exit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKe76HRVPSQ And the same with a Steinke Hood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtQ3HNuxcGA But again- in my option the best idear to survife such a event is a training and a divers course. By the way if you have issue idears about bacteria etc. in your BDC. After such an event the police will carry you regular anyway to a hospital. Bring the BCD with you and give it to the doctors - they can easy check out if it was something in which is not good for your healty.. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-05-01T12:45:45+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. Alan On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. The other ones are sealed. I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 09:46:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 13:46:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue.? This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE.? However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE.? I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout.? ? As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve.? The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level.? I will be equalizing as water level rises.? When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it.? This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's .? US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance.? The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'.? Is the Steinke hood perfect?? No.? Is it better than nothing, I think so.?? You are designing a small boat as we speak.? Are you planning on using a SEIE?? If so, how are you going to put it on? Best Regards, Cliff On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance?from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trappedbelow that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your?nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at?the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing externalpressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be ableto equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums.?If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air.You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis& I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out.You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would bevery little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacitySteinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute.Quote from an article on Steinke hoods....As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery.?Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood.Alan On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. ? I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. ? In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. ? No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. The other ones are sealed. ? I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs?The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically.?Cliff?On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2.? ? But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. ? The lung can overexpant easy? but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Thanks Tom, a lot to think about.Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as thegas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as yousay you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing.The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 09:50:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 13:50:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556717578675.2816501.5a05a7b1ea7569aa737b632b6a349ea1721ff54a@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <1556717578675.2816501.5a05a7b1ea7569aa737b632b6a349ea1721ff54a@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <812842776.3261756.1556718631053@mail.yahoo.com> Carsten, I concur. Cliff On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 8:34:14 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, you are right, today the military submariener use escape suits to give them termal protection. The simple reson is that the may wait long on the surface.? If you have a space?ous submarine - you can storage dry or wet divers suit there- but for the most 1-3 person subs that is no option. On Sgt.Peppers even a Steinke Hoods was no option. ? But if this is no option because the lack of space - delete it from the list. ? So what can stay? ? - Old Steinke hoods, - new BCD and - normal dive gear. - Relaseable dome as Breathing parachute ? Normal dive gear give you no extra lift - which is the most important factor to prevent longer breathing in the depth and get decommprsion thickness. ? The recommdation of the old video are for military submarines which have a LP hose and a exit chamber. In a small Psub I would wear the Steinke hood. Breathing with the snorckel valve of the hood from the inside of the submarine. Flood and compress the sub. Inflate the hood by LP hose or if not available do the job via the inflator hose. Using the inflator hose is secondary -better use the LP hose if availabe. If you have to use the inflator tube this means to open the zipper of the hood - which is on such a old device a risk on its own. ? I fogot to mention that on our Steinke hoods we not only rebuild the neck scirt, we also exchange the inflator adapter from the militar one to a scua diver LP connector. ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdIleUORf0I On 0:40 you can see how much force air and water did to your head. Even a divers mask can easy fly away. (See at 3:;00) But a Steinke Hood gives your head some protection. On 1:42 you can see the me useing a divers old style BCD. And yes I breathe from the unit and I am still fine. :-) ? Another BCD exit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKe76HRVPSQ ? And the same with a Steinke Hood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtQ3HNuxcGA ? But again- in my option the best idear to survife such a event is a training and a divers course.? ? By the way if you have issue idears about? bacteria etc. in your BDC. After such an event the police will carry you regular anyway to a hospital. Bring the BCD with you and give it to the doctors - they can easy check out if it was something in which is not good for your healty.. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-05-01T12:45:45+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ??The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance?from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trappedbelow that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your?nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at?the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing externalpressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be ableto equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums.?If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air.You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis& I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out.You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would bevery little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacitySteinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute.Quote from an article on Steinke hoods....As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery.?Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood.Alan?? On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. ? I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. ? In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. ? No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. The other ones are sealed. ? I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs?The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically.?Cliff?On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2.? ? But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. ? The lung can overexpant easy? but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Thanks Tom, a lot to think about.Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as thegas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as yousay you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing.The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 15:17:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 07:17:52 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B336@yahoo.com> Hi Cliff, I wasn't so much pointing out the hypothermia issues but all the other medical diving issues that we discussed earlier in this thread; plus the fact that you are getting virtually no air to breath out of a Steinke hood in the first 200 ft on a 500ft escape. And no, not using an SEIE, not enough room. With regard to equalising your ears just before equalisation of the hull, You will not be able to judge when your sub is about to equalise by the water level. If you were scuttling your boat at 33 ft then the water level would be half way up the interior of your sub (by volume), where ever that might be. But as you got deeper this water level would rise before you equalised. Also factored in is Phil's advise to add compressed air at the end to speed up equalisation, due to the slowing of water flow in to the hull. At 120ft the water level is going to be 4/5ths of the way up your hull before you are equalised, at 300ft around 10/11ths of the way up your hull. So we are talking gradients of inches per ATM increase, with an exponential decrease In water level increase required to equalise as depth increases. Most diving authorities say you should equalise your ears every 2 ft of descent, so that's 16 times for your first 33ft (1atm). You can burst your ear drums at 10ft. It would be a real lottery as to what time in the flooding you put the Steinke hood on. ( Can you get out your hatch with it inflated?) As said, you might not be able to physically put it on at 300ft due to your intoxicated state. I would propose using a normal BCD that all divers are familiar with & a small pony bottle with mixed gas in it. You can breath through the BCDs oral inflator ( like a Steinke hood) if you see air start to bubble out the over inflation valve. I have been formulating my escape plan as this thread has evolved, & it's been great hearing from people & throwing ideas around. To date I like the idea of having an external mixed gas bottle that can be used as an auxiliary ballast blow, but is plumbed in to the hull & used to fill my BCD on escape & for breathing air half way through the flooding of the hull. Then head to the surface breathing both from the pony bottle & BCD. I would look at dumping the content of the BCD & doing a stop for as long as possible at around 30ft. Alan > On 2/05/2019, at 1:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue. This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE. However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE. I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout. As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve. The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level. I will be equalizing as water level rises. When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it. This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's . US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance. The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'. Is the Steinke hood perfect? No. Is it better than nothing, I think so. > > You are designing a small boat as we speak. Are you planning on using a SEIE? If so, how are you going to put it on? > > Best Regards, Cliff > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance > from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped > below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your > nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at > the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external > pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able > to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. > If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. > You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis > & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. > You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be > very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity > Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. > Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... > As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. > Alan > > > >> On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. >> >> I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. >> But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. >> We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole >> from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. >> >> In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. >> This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. >> >> No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. >> The other ones are sealed. >> >> I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. >> Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. >> The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. >> If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call >> - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 >> Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs >> >> The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? >> Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. >> And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. >> And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. >> I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. >> >> But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. >> >> The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. >> If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. >> Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the >> gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you >> say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. >> Alan >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. >> >> Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. >> >> Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. >> >> I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. >> >> Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. >> >> I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. >> The hood and escape suits look better all the time. >> >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 15:48:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 15:48:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: <5cc9f802.1c69fb81.a90fa.7321@mx.google.com> I have two Steinke hoods I picked up on eBay awhile ago. Both have the hard neck seals. I likely missed some of the conversation so where have you guys gone to get them rebuilt/replaced? Did you go with a regular rubber drysuit neck seal? Would a neoprene one be better? Brian Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 16:26:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 22:26:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <5cc9f802.1c69fb81.a90fa.7321@mx.google.com> References: <5cc9f802.1c69fb81.a90fa.7321@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1556742391515.2810361.e1a988588dcf29a5b23b85ab4ec5c147e3dfaddb@spica.telekom.de> Brian we replace the hole back scirt with a 3-4 mm thick neopren one. With a fabric layer on both sides of the neopren. Was done by a local diver suit maker. With a big stamp on the bill "For museums purpose only" Replacement comes without the neck hole, we did this later by ourself to find the right sizes of the hole. At the time I bring it to the shop the owner tell me "I will not fix it - you can die in this old units". I response to him we will definitley die without it - changes his mind. I spent around 50 USD per unit for material and labour cost. We replace also the LP adapter of the unit from the miltary one to a scuba diver LP connector. The window is also something which age. But we let it in. I have not check our units since some years - good reminder here - will do so the next days. And may take some pictures. As attachment 16 years ol picture with a BCD as own first experiments - before I catch the Hoods. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-05-01T21:49:33+0200 Von: "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" I have two Steinke hoods I picked up on eBay awhile ago. Both have the hard neck seals. I likely missed some of the conversation so where have you guys gone to get them rebuilt/replaced? Did you go with a regular rubber drysuit neck seal? Would a neoprene one be better? Brian Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PICT0004.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 76506 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 17:17:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:17:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B336@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B336@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <211B71BD-D1B8-483F-85B5-5FCCFB77BFD5@yahoo.com> Additional thoughts are that in NZ you are required by law to wear a life jacket on a boat, not sure about the US. You would probably get away with using a BCD as a life jacket. Maybe unbolt the tank attachment if possible, or just buy a horseshoe type BCD. This saves space just having a BCD rather than a steinke hood & life jacket. Alan > On 2/05/2019, at 7:17 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > I wasn't so much pointing out the hypothermia issues but all the other > medical diving issues that we discussed earlier in this thread; plus the fact > that you are getting virtually no air to breath out of a Steinke hood in the first > 200 ft on a 500ft escape. And no, not using an SEIE, not enough room. > With regard to equalising your ears just before equalisation of the hull, > You will not be able to judge when your sub is about to equalise by the > water level. If you were scuttling your boat at 33 ft then the water level > would be half way up the interior of your sub (by volume), where ever > that might be. But as you got deeper this water level would rise before > you equalised. Also factored in is Phil's advise to add compressed air > at the end to speed up equalisation, due to the slowing of water flow > in to the hull. At 120ft the water level is going to be 4/5ths of the way up > your hull before you are equalised, at 300ft around 10/11ths of the way > up your hull. So we are talking gradients of inches per ATM increase, with > an exponential decrease In water level increase required to equalise as depth increases. > Most diving authorities say you should equalise your ears every 2 ft of > descent, so that's 16 times for your first 33ft (1atm). You can burst your > ear drums at 10ft. It would be a real lottery as to what time in the flooding > you put the Steinke hood on. ( Can you get out your hatch with it inflated?) > As said, you might not be able to physically put it on at 300ft due to your > intoxicated state. > I would propose using a normal BCD that all divers are familiar with & a small > pony bottle with mixed gas in it. You can breath through the BCDs oral > inflator ( like a Steinke hood) if you see air start to bubble out the over inflation valve. > I have been formulating my escape plan as this thread has evolved, & it's > been great hearing from people & throwing ideas around. > To date I like the idea of having an external mixed gas bottle that can be used as an > auxiliary ballast blow, but is plumbed in to the hull & used to fill my BCD on > escape & for breathing air half way through the flooding of the hull. > Then head to the surface breathing both from the pony bottle & BCD. > I would look at dumping the content of the BCD & doing a stop for as long > as possible at around 30ft. > Alan > > > >> On 2/05/2019, at 1:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue. This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE. However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE. I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout. As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve. The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level. I will be equalizing as water level rises. When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it. This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's . US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance. The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'. Is the Steinke hood perfect? No. Is it better than nothing, I think so. >> >> You are designing a small boat as we speak. Are you planning on using a SEIE? If so, how are you going to put it on? >> >> Best Regards, Cliff >> >> On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance >> from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped >> below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your >> nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at >> the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external >> pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able >> to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. >> If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. >> You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis >> & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. >> You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be >> very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity >> Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. >> Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... >> As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. >> Alan >> >> >> >>> On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. >>> >>> I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. >>> But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. >>> We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole >>> from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. >>> >>> In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. >>> This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. >>> >>> No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. >>> The other ones are sealed. >>> >>> I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. >>> Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. >>> The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. >>> If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call >>> - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 >>> Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs >>> >>> The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. >>> >>> Cliff >>> >>> On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? >>> Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. >>> And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. >>> And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. >>> I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. >>> >>> But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. >>> >>> The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. >>> If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. >>> Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the >>> gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you >>> say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. >>> >>> Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. >>> >>> Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. >>> >>> I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. >>> >>> Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. >>> >>> I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. >>> The hood and escape suits look better all the time. >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> Carsten, >>> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >>> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >>> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >>> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >>> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >>> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >>> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >>> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >>> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >>> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >>> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >>> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >>> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >>> the BCD. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >>> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >>> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >>> >>> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >>> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >>> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >>> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >>> >>> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >>> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >>> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >>> for bouancy. >>> >>> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >>> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >>> >>> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >>> >>> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >>> >>> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >>> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >>> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean / all, >>> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >>> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >>> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >>> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >>> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >>> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >>> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >>> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >>> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >>> escape from 100ft. >>> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >>> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >>> surface easy enough. >>> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >>> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >>> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >>> making stops if I felt able. >>> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >>> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >>> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >>> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >>> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >>> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >>> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> More thoughts on escape... >>> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >>> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >>> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >>> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >>> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >>> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >>> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >>> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >>> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >>> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >>> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >>> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >>> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >>> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >>> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Carsten, >>> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >>> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >>> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >>> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >>> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >>> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >>> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >>> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >>> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >>> tank. >>> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >>> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >>> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >>> >>> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >>> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >>> >>> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >>> >>> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >>> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >>> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >>> >>> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >>> >>> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >>> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >>> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >>> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >>> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >>> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >>> In shallower depths. >>> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >>> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >>> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >>> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >>> >>> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >>> >>> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >>> >>> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >>> >>> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >>> >>> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >>> >>> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> Melbourne, Australia >>> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> Carsten, >>> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >>> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >>> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >>> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >>> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >>> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >>> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >>> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >>> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >>> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >>> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >>> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >>> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >>> the BCD. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >>> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >>> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >>> >>> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >>> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >>> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >>> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >>> >>> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >>> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >>> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >>> for bouancy. >>> >>> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >>> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >>> >>> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >>> >>> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >>> >>> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >>> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >>> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean / all, >>> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >>> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >>> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >>> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >>> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >>> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >>> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >>> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >>> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >>> escape from 100ft. >>> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >>> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >>> surface easy enough. >>> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >>> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >>> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >>> making stops if I felt able. >>> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >>> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >>> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >>> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >>> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >>> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >>> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> More thoughts on escape... >>> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >>> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >>> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >>> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >>> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >>> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >>> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >>> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >>> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >>> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >>> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >>> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >>> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >>> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >>> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Carsten, >>> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >>> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >>> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >>> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >>> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >>> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >>> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >>> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >>> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >>> tank. >>> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >>> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >>> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >>> >>> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >>> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >>> >>> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >>> >>> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >>> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >>> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >>> >>> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >>> >>> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >>> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >>> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >>> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >>> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >>> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >>> In shallower depths. >>> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >>> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >>> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >>> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >>> >>> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >>> >>> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >>> >>> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >>> >>> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >>> >>> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >>> >>> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> Melbourne, Australia >>> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 18:02:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 10:02:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <211B71BD-D1B8-483F-85B5-5FCCFB77BFD5@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B33 6@yahoo.com> <211B71BD-D1B8-483F-85B5-5FCCFB77BFD5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <113401d50069$a41b0d20$ec512760$@gmail.com> Alan, a small pony bottle is only any good if you are rebreathing. If you are at 30 atm depth then a small pony bottle will only last a couple of breaths possibly depending on pony volume. That is why I asked the gurus for sizing of cylinders with mixed gas usage. It comes down to how long to get out of the sub etc as to how many breaths you are going to need for sizing of the mixed gas. I didn?t realise how complicated it would get and the simplest seems to be the new Mk 10 Steinke hoods. I think it is like my old flying instructor when I asked him what to do in a certain situation. He said that you make sure you don?t get into those situations by good maintenance, planned flights(dives) and sticking to the plan as well as a good preflight. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 2 May 2019 9:18 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Additional thoughts are that in NZ you are required by law to wear a life jacket on a boat, not sure about the US. You would probably get away with using a BCD as a life jacket. Maybe unbolt the tank attachment if possible, or just buy a horseshoe type BCD. This saves space just having a BCD rather than a steinke hood & life jacket. Alan On 2/05/2019, at 7:17 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff, I wasn't so much pointing out the hypothermia issues but all the other medical diving issues that we discussed earlier in this thread; plus the fact that you are getting virtually no air to breath out of a Steinke hood in the first 200 ft on a 500ft escape. And no, not using an SEIE, not enough room. With regard to equalising your ears just before equalisation of the hull, You will not be able to judge when your sub is about to equalise by the water level. If you were scuttling your boat at 33 ft then the water level would be half way up the interior of your sub (by volume), where ever that might be. But as you got deeper this water level would rise before you equalised. Also factored in is Phil's advise to add compressed air at the end to speed up equalisation, due to the slowing of water flow in to the hull. At 120ft the water level is going to be 4/5ths of the way up your hull before you are equalised, at 300ft around 10/11ths of the way up your hull. So we are talking gradients of inches per ATM increase, with an exponential decrease In water level increase required to equalise as depth increases. Most diving authorities say you should equalise your ears every 2 ft of descent, so that's 16 times for your first 33ft (1atm). You can burst your ear drums at 10ft. It would be a real lottery as to what time in the flooding you put the Steinke hood on. ( Can you get out your hatch with it inflated?) As said, you might not be able to physically put it on at 300ft due to your intoxicated state. I would propose using a normal BCD that all divers are familiar with & a small pony bottle with mixed gas in it. You can breath through the BCDs oral inflator ( like a Steinke hood) if you see air start to bubble out the over inflation valve. I have been formulating my escape plan as this thread has evolved, & it's been great hearing from people & throwing ideas around. To date I like the idea of having an external mixed gas bottle that can be used as an auxiliary ballast blow, but is plumbed in to the hull & used to fill my BCD on escape & for breathing air half way through the flooding of the hull. Then head to the surface breathing both from the pony bottle & BCD. I would look at dumping the content of the BCD & doing a stop for as long as possible at around 30ft. Alan On 2/05/2019, at 1:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue. This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE. However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE. I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout. As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve. The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level. I will be equalizing as water level rises. When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it. This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's . US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance. The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'. Is the Steinke hood perfect? No. Is it better than nothing, I think so. You are designing a small boat as we speak. Are you planning on using a SEIE? If so, how are you going to put it on? Best Regards, Cliff On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. Alan On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. The other ones are sealed. I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 18:47:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 10:47:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <113401d50069$a41b0d20$ec512760$@gmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B33 6@yahoo.com> <211B71BD-D1B8-483F-85B5-5FCCFB77BFD5@yahoo.com> <113401d50069$a41b0d20$ec512760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84686A11-A17F-4F07-9BD0-47D2DD756D19@yahoo.com> Hugh, Agreed that you don't get yourself in to that situation, & eliminate any possible entanglements in your design. I was looking at pony bottles & thinking the 13 cu ft may be a good compromise. Haven't done the maths on how many breaths I'd get from 500ft but I would be relying on an 80 cu ft mixed gas to do the filling of the BCD & get me to the point where I am out of the sub. Alan > On 2/05/2019, at 10:02 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, a small pony bottle is only any good if you are rebreathing. If you are at 30 atm depth then a small pony bottle will only last a couple of breaths possibly depending on pony volume. That is why I asked the gurus for sizing of cylinders with mixed gas usage. It comes down to how long to get out of the sub etc as to how many breaths you are going to need for sizing of the mixed gas. I didn?t realise how complicated it would get and the simplest seems to be the new Mk 10 Steinke hoods. > I think it is like my old flying instructor when I asked him what to do in a certain situation. He said that you make sure you don?t get into those situations by good maintenance, planned flights(dives) and sticking to the plan as well as a good preflight. > Hugh > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 2 May 2019 9:18 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Additional thoughts are that in NZ you are required by law to wear > a life jacket on a boat, not sure about the US. You would probably get away with > using a BCD as a life jacket. Maybe unbolt the tank attachment if possible, > or just buy a horseshoe type BCD. > This saves space just having a BCD rather than a steinke hood & life jacket. > Alan > > > On 2/05/2019, at 7:17 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Cliff, > I wasn't so much pointing out the hypothermia issues but all the other > medical diving issues that we discussed earlier in this thread; plus the fact > that you are getting virtually no air to breath out of a Steinke hood in the first > 200 ft on a 500ft escape. And no, not using an SEIE, not enough room. > With regard to equalising your ears just before equalisation of the hull, > You will not be able to judge when your sub is about to equalise by the > water level. If you were scuttling your boat at 33 ft then the water level > would be half way up the interior of your sub (by volume), where ever > that might be. But as you got deeper this water level would rise before > you equalised. Also factored in is Phil's advise to add compressed air > at the end to speed up equalisation, due to the slowing of water flow > in to the hull. At 120ft the water level is going to be 4/5ths of the way up > your hull before you are equalised, at 300ft around 10/11ths of the way > up your hull. So we are talking gradients of inches per ATM increase, with > an exponential decrease In water level increase required to equalise as depth increases. > Most diving authorities say you should equalise your ears every 2 ft of > descent, so that's 16 times for your first 33ft (1atm). You can burst your > ear drums at 10ft. It would be a real lottery as to what time in the flooding > you put the Steinke hood on. ( Can you get out your hatch with it inflated?) > As said, you might not be able to physically put it on at 300ft due to your > intoxicated state. > I would propose using a normal BCD that all divers are familiar with & a small > pony bottle with mixed gas in it. You can breath through the BCDs oral > inflator ( like a Steinke hood) if you see air start to bubble out the over inflation valve. > I have been formulating my escape plan as this thread has evolved, & it's > been great hearing from people & throwing ideas around. > To date I like the idea of having an external mixed gas bottle that can be used as an > auxiliary ballast blow, but is plumbed in to the hull & used to fill my BCD on > escape & for breathing air half way through the flooding of the hull. > Then head to the surface breathing both from the pony bottle & BCD. > I would look at dumping the content of the BCD & doing a stop for as long > as possible at around 30ft. > Alan > > > > On 2/05/2019, at 1:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue. This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE. However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE. I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout. As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve. The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level. I will be equalizing as water level rises. When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it. This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's . US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance. The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'. Is the Steinke hood perfect? No. Is it better than nothing, I think so. > > You are designing a small boat as we speak. Are you planning on using a SEIE? If so, how are you going to put it on? > > Best Regards, Cliff > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance > from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped > below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your > nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at > the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external > pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able > to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. > If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. > You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis > & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. > You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be > very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity > Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. > Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... > As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. > Alan > > > > On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. > > I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. > But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. > We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole > from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. > > In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. > This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. > > No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. > The other ones are sealed. > > I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. > Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. > The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. > If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call > - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 > Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 1 19:34:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 11:34:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <84686A11-A17F-4F07-9BD0-47D2DD756D19@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <1556701384398.2799109.bd92bf08060a45bd799112529cc427a0c16364bb@spica.telekom.de> <815517028.3241867.1556718412414@mail.yahoo.com> <44E57DEA-793B-4880-B451-F85D25F6B33 6@yahoo.com> <211B71BD-D1B8-483F-85B5-5FCCFB77BFD5@yahoo.com> <113401d50069$a41b0d20$ec512760$@gmail.com> <84686A11-A17F-4F07-9BD0-47D2DD756D19@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, Sorry not thinking straight. It is easier to equalise & would need to be done less frequently the deeper you go. For instance at 10ft you would have 5psi deflecting your ear drum inward. But if you were at 100ft & equalised then went to 110ft, this same 5psi pressure difference would not deflect your ear drum anywhere near the same because of the amount of compression of the air already in your inner air. So by the time you get to 300ft you would have a lot more time to equalise as the cabin pressurised. Be interesting to calculate this out but should be doing other things.. Alan > On 2/05/2019, at 10:47 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hugh, > Agreed that you don't get yourself in to that situation, & eliminate any possible > entanglements in your design. > I was looking at pony bottles & thinking the 13 cu ft may be a good compromise. > Haven't done the maths on how many breaths I'd get from 500ft but I would be > relying on an 80 cu ft mixed gas to do the filling of the BCD & get me to the point > where I am out of the sub. > Alan > > > >> On 2/05/2019, at 10:02 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, a small pony bottle is only any good if you are rebreathing. If you are at 30 atm depth then a small pony bottle will only last a couple of breaths possibly depending on pony volume. That is why I asked the gurus for sizing of cylinders with mixed gas usage. It comes down to how long to get out of the sub etc as to how many breaths you are going to need for sizing of the mixed gas. I didn?t realise how complicated it would get and the simplest seems to be the new Mk 10 Steinke hoods. >> I think it is like my old flying instructor when I asked him what to do in a certain situation. He said that you make sure you don?t get into those situations by good maintenance, planned flights(dives) and sticking to the plan as well as a good preflight. >> Hugh >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Thursday, 2 May 2019 9:18 AM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> Additional thoughts are that in NZ you are required by law to wear >> a life jacket on a boat, not sure about the US. You would probably get away with >> using a BCD as a life jacket. Maybe unbolt the tank attachment if possible, >> or just buy a horseshoe type BCD. >> This saves space just having a BCD rather than a steinke hood & life jacket. >> Alan >> >> >> On 2/05/2019, at 7:17 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Cliff, >> I wasn't so much pointing out the hypothermia issues but all the other >> medical diving issues that we discussed earlier in this thread; plus the fact >> that you are getting virtually no air to breath out of a Steinke hood in the first >> 200 ft on a 500ft escape. And no, not using an SEIE, not enough room. >> With regard to equalising your ears just before equalisation of the hull, >> You will not be able to judge when your sub is about to equalise by the >> water level. If you were scuttling your boat at 33 ft then the water level >> would be half way up the interior of your sub (by volume), where ever >> that might be. But as you got deeper this water level would rise before >> you equalised. Also factored in is Phil's advise to add compressed air >> at the end to speed up equalisation, due to the slowing of water flow >> in to the hull. At 120ft the water level is going to be 4/5ths of the way up >> your hull before you are equalised, at 300ft around 10/11ths of the way >> up your hull. So we are talking gradients of inches per ATM increase, with >> an exponential decrease In water level increase required to equalise as depth increases. >> Most diving authorities say you should equalise your ears every 2 ft of >> descent, so that's 16 times for your first 33ft (1atm). You can burst your >> ear drums at 10ft. It would be a real lottery as to what time in the flooding >> you put the Steinke hood on. ( Can you get out your hatch with it inflated?) >> As said, you might not be able to physically put it on at 300ft due to your >> intoxicated state. >> I would propose using a normal BCD that all divers are familiar with & a small >> pony bottle with mixed gas in it. You can breath through the BCDs oral >> inflator ( like a Steinke hood) if you see air start to bubble out the over inflation valve. >> I have been formulating my escape plan as this thread has evolved, & it's >> been great hearing from people & throwing ideas around. >> To date I like the idea of having an external mixed gas bottle that can be used as an >> auxiliary ballast blow, but is plumbed in to the hull & used to fill my BCD on >> escape & for breathing air half way through the flooding of the hull. >> Then head to the surface breathing both from the pony bottle & BCD. >> I would look at dumping the content of the BCD & doing a stop for as long >> as possible at around 30ft. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 2/05/2019, at 1:46 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, I agree that if you have the room in the hull to put on a SEIE, it is better than a Steinke hood because of the hypothermia issue. This was the primary reason US Navy replaced Steinke hood with the SEIE. However, as Jon points out, most of the psubs have cabins that are too small to put on a SEIE. I have a operating boat that can reach to 300 fsw so I am back to needing a Steinke hood to give me a better shot of surviving a bailout. As to equalization, my NOP calls for strapping the hood around the waist and having the hood in my lap prior to opening the scuttle valve. The way I gage cabin vs ambient pressure to just water the water level. I will be equalizing as water level rises. When the level reaches my chest, I top off buoyancy chamber with oral fill tube and pull hood over my head and exit the boat through the hatch. If I burst my ear drums, so be it. This is better than having my body temperature reach ambient! The Steinke hoods were standard issue to submariners from 1962 to early in 2000's . US Navy did a lot of testing with units and got a lot right with the appliance. The max depth rating in the Steinke hood literature is 450'. Is the Steinke hood perfect? No. Is it better than nothing, I think so. >> >> You are designing a small boat as we speak. Are you planning on using a SEIE? If so, how are you going to put it on? >> >> Best Regards, Cliff >> >> On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 5:45:07 AM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> The Steinke hood might be alright for getting out of a submarine with assistance >> from one or two hundred feet, but would be not so good for a psubber trapped >> below that. As the escape video says, you need to equalise by pinching your >> nose before you put the hood on. So you would be trying to put the hood on at >> the point that your sub is equalised. This would require accurately comparing external >> pressure with internal pressure. If you put it on too soon you wouldn't be able >> to equalise & may need to take it off to re-try equalising, or burst your ear drums. >> If you put it on too late the hatch may open with a forceful entry of water & exiting of air. >> You would be required to do this while under the influence of nitrogen narcosis >> & I think somewhere around 350 ft you are so narked that you couldn't get out. >> You are relying on breathing expanding air from the jacket but there would be >> very little air expansion from say 400ft to 200ft; about 1 litre from a 14 litre capacity >> Steinke hood. Relaxed breathing is about 6 litres a minute. >> Quote from an article on Steinke hoods.... >> As early as 1974, one study highlighted significant biomedical shortcomings in the escape system: hypothermia, nitrogen narcosis, hypercarbia, barotrauma, and decompression sickness. These shortcomings were attributed to the method of escape and operating procedures. Furthermore, the current method of submarine escape was no longer practical, because the Steinke Hood provided no thermal protection for the escaper during the escape and while awaiting recovery. Accordingly, citing emerging technology and recent studies, by 1996 researchers at the Naval Submarine Medical Research Lab presented biomedical-based recommendations for enhancing survival of escapers by a) overhauling current submarine escape systems and procedures and b) substituting existing thermal protection suits for the Steinke Hood. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 1/05/2019, at 9:03 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Really good training video. Shall safe to the Psubs server.. >> >> I have 5 or so devices for the Euronaut. Pretty old USNavy devices form the 80ies and far over it expected lifetime. >> But it was nessesary to renew the neck scirt. Was pretty hard. Any small diver suit maker or reair company can do these job. >> We let them make new scirts from Neopren. 50 USD or so each. Replacement comes without a neck hole >> from the suit repair company. We make the holes ourself according to the smallest crew member neck. >> >> In case you have no LP hose access you can fill the unit with the small inflatour mouse tube. >> This is clear opposite to the instruction video - but better than to lost your life. >> >> No.6 unit on board has a blue mark on his bag - it is our training device o teach new crew members. >> The other ones are sealed. >> >> I think you can may convert a new divers vest BCD into such a device.80% of the device is allready on a BCD. >> Show the video to a diver suit repair company and give them the new BCD to convert is may an idear. >> The unit with a small air pony bottle as the mmost BCD have - will be a great update- no need of a LP Hose anymore. >> If some of your guys try so for such a conversion - give the comunity here a call >> - may it will be cheaper if you can convet a bunch. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-30T23:09:56+0200 >> Von: "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs >> >> The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. >> >> Cliff >> >> On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? >> Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. >> And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. >> And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. >> I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. >> >> But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. >> >> The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. >> If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. >> Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the >> gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you >> say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. >> Alan >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. >> >> Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. >> >> Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. >> >> I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. >> >> Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. >> >> I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. >> The hood and escape suits look better all the time. >> >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 3 23:01:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 20:01:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress Message-ID: Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three more to go. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image8566453130185991844.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 308430 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image729728320909630884.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 323332 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image3786464166389675499.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 285996 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image7809364489070816500.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 308702 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image244334802538592248.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 312299 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 03:58:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 19:58:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D90F68C-C7FC-4707-99BB-58D928A592F5@yahoo.com> Good progress David, enjoying following the process. Alan > On 4/05/2019, at 3:01 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three more to go. > > David > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 05:08:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 09:08:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil.?Hank On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two adjacent to the rear pilot.? Now that i got the form work dialed in, three more to go. David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 09:05:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 13:05:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments References: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801@mail.yahoo.com> Curious what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to reinforcement rings without drilling or welding. I see Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib. Any other ways? From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 10:54:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:54:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments In-Reply-To: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1392413515.155005.1556975156801@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6D4AF23F-34F6-45A7-B8BE-D067045E3FCF@gmail.com> Hi Jon, These little things can be found at hardware stores and clamp to the stiffener flanges to attach light things. Replace the set screw with a SS one. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gatehouse-Sliding-Patio-Door-Cylinder-Lock/3410472 Best, Alec > On May 4, 2019, at 9:05 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Curious what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to reinforcement rings without drilling or welding. I see Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib. Any other ways? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 11:54:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:54:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments References: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, I?m guessing those have a 1/4 inch slot. My rings are 3/8. I may have to fabricate something similar. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 5/4/19, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, May 4, 2019, 10:54 AM Hi Jon, These little things can be found at hardware stores and clamp to the stiffener flanges to attach light things. Replace the set screw with a SS one. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gatehouse-Sliding-Patio-Door-Cylinder-Lock/3410472 Best, Alec > On May 4, 2019, at 9:05 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Curious what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to reinforcement rings without drilling or welding.? I see Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib.? Any other ways?? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 12:10:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 09:10:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments Message-ID: <20190504091054.7F220419@m0117566.ppops.net> Jon, I've drilled some small holes and then tapped them with threads and attached a few things on the edge of some of my T ribs. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:54:58 +0000 (UTC) Hi Alec, I?m guessing those have a 1/4 inch slot. My rings are 3/8. I may have to fabricate something similar. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 5/4/19, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, May 4, 2019, 10:54 AM Hi Jon, These little things can be found at hardware stores and clamp to the stiffener flanges to attach light things. Replace the set screw with a SS one. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gatehouse-Sliding-Patio-Door-Cylinder-Lock/3410472 Best, Alec > On May 4, 2019, at 9:05 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Curious what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to reinforcement rings without drilling or welding.? I see Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib.? Any other ways?? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 12:18:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:18:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments In-Reply-To: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1406901023.177763.1556985298585@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, that's correct. On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 11:55 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, I?m guessing those have a 1/4 inch slot. My rings are 3/8. I > may have to fabricate something similar. > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 5/4/19, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Saturday, May 4, 2019, 10:54 AM > > Hi Jon, > > These little things can be found at hardware > stores and clamp to the stiffener flanges to attach light > things. Replace the set screw with a SS one. > > > https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gatehouse-Sliding-Patio-Door-Cylinder-Lock/3410472 > > Best, > Alec > > > On May 4, 2019, at 9:05 > AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > > > > Curious > what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to > reinforcement rings without drilling or welding. I see > Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have > slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib. > Any other ways? > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 15:26:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 07:26:44 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments In-Reply-To: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1392413515.155005.1556975156801.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1392413515.155005.1556975156801@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44AF7345-2592-44D9-AB34-D67DFCB0001D@yahoo.com> Jon, If you google I "beam clamp" & do an image search, there are plenty of different options. Alan > On 5/05/2019, at 1:05 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Curious what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to reinforcement rings without drilling or welding. I see Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib. Any other ways? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 23:24:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:24:08 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without setting the styrofoam on fire. Rick On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. > Hank > > On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. > Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of > the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil > applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the > first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the > exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two > adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three > more to go. > > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 4 23:26:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:26:31 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments In-Reply-To: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1406901023.177763.1556985298585.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1406901023.177763.1556985298585@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I bought the same exact clips at home depot as well and yes they barely fit over my 1/4" T bar frames. Rick On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 5:55 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Alec, I?m guessing those have a 1/4 inch slot. My rings are 3/8. I > may have to fabricate something similar. > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 5/4/19, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: Saturday, May 4, 2019, 10:54 AM > > Hi Jon, > > These little things can be found at hardware > stores and clamp to the stiffener flanges to attach light > things. Replace the set screw with a SS one. > > > https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gatehouse-Sliding-Patio-Door-Cylinder-Lock/3410472 > > Best, > Alec > > > On May 4, 2019, at 9:05 > AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote: > > > > Curious > what folks are using to attach instruments and hardware to > reinforcement rings without drilling or welding. I see > Steve has created some metal hangers that I assume have > slots cut in the end to grab onto the flange of the rib. > Any other ways? > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 00:13:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 21:13:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. David On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next > hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find > the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you > sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine > but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without > setting the styrofoam on fire. > Rick > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. >> Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of >> the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil >> applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the >> first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >> more to go. >> >> David >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 00:26:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 21:26:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I thought those who did not experience the engine startup at the psubs convention a number of years ago. Here you go. Watch "USS Silversides WW2 Submarine Engine Start-up" on YouTube Message-ID: https://youtu.be/6Cf0gxvYqBY -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 01:27:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 22:27:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] I thought those who did not experience the engine startup at the psubs convention a number of years ago. Here you go. Watch "USS Silversides WW2 Submarine Engine Start-up" on YouTube Message-ID: <20190504222757.7F1F1927@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 06:10:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 10:10:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments Message-ID: I lucked out on eBay and bought a box of medical pole clamps for next to nothing. They are originally designed to attach instruments like IV pumps to those poles with wheels on the bottom. A little machining on the front, replace the knob bolt with a stainless hex head, and they clamp really well, great for holding almost anything. Like this: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F153435130091 Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 06:14:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 10:14:42 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rib attachments Message-ID: Another example https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alaris-8015-Point-of-Care-Unit-Pole-Mounting-Clamp-Bracket/152654067091?hash=item238ae43593:g:I0gAAOSws25ch-C4&redirect=mobile Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 15:18:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 09:18:32 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks David. Rick On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. > David > > On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next >> hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find >> the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you >> sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine >> but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without >> setting the styrofoam on fire. >> Rick >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>> more to go. >>> >>> David >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 5 21:52:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 01:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pisces VI Unveiling In-Reply-To: <20190220185230.14390.qmail@server268.com> References: <20190220185230.14390.qmail@server268.com> Message-ID: <1658993922.1745456.1557107526593@mail.yahoo.com> Scott, a friend of mine, Kevin Hicks and I plan on attending the private unveiling of Pisces VI on May 31. We will be driving up from Devine, Tx.? What time are you planning to? start and where?? Looking forward to see what you have done with the boat and hear plans for her sea trials and deployment. Best Regards Dr. Cliff Redus On Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 12:53:42 PM CST, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It is with great honor I would like to invite everyone to the Deep Sea Submarine Pisces VI private formal unveiling ceremony. The event will be in the evening of May 31 at Salina, Kansas in hanger 600 at the Salina airport. Flights are available on United Airlines via Chicago or Denver. We will have explorers, submarine groups, and scientists from all around the world attending. PSUBS has a special place in my heart and I look am so thankful for everyone on here. The offer to attend the event is extended to everyone on PSUBS and I would be honored to introduce everyone personally to the new submarine. The next day (June 1) we will have a open to the public event all day long as well.? Thank you, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 6 02:47:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 23:47:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about an hour. Have fun. David On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks David. > Rick > > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >> David >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my >>> next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't >>> find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date >>> you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding >>> machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut >>> without setting the styrofoam on fire. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>>> more to go. >>>> >>>> David >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image8540286695843740963.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 257347 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image3575435334837714923.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 223335 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image8077698676622960231.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 226110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image2482297831611782800.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 294640 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image1575259832363216567.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 346758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 6 13:08:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 07:08:46 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it out. Rick On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w > computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to > be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire > extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 > eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be > able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" > wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" > in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight > arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For > straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a > couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire > against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have > been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about > an hour. Have fun. > David > > On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks David. >> Rick >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >>> David >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my >>>> next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't >>>> find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date >>>> you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding >>>> machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut >>>> without setting the styrofoam on fire. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>>>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>>>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>>>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>>>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>>>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>>>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>>>> more to go. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 17:42:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 11:42:58 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use it, just how bad it was if you breath it! Dave, what have you been using? Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. Rick On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: > Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it > out. > Rick > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w >> computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to >> be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire >> extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 >> eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be >> able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" >> wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" >> in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight >> arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For >> straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a >> couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire >> against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have >> been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about >> an hour. Have fun. >> David >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks David. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my >>>>> next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't >>>>> find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date >>>>> you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding >>>>> machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut >>>>> without setting the styrofoam on fire. >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>>>>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>>>>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>>>>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>>>>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>>>>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>>>>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>>>>> more to go. >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 18:01:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 22:01:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. ?It is very strong.Hank On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use it, just how bad it was if you breath it!?Dave, what have you been using??Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one.Rick On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it out.Rick On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be able to cut 36"? x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" in about 4 min.? I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam,? and i draw the hotwire against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about an hour. Have fun.David On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David.Rick On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig.David On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without setting the styrofoam on fire.Rick? On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dave, pretty clever using tin foil.?Hank On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two adjacent to the rear pilot.? Now that i got the form work dialed in, three more to go. David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 18:06:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 12:06:09 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. Will this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? Is the Ice starting to melt up there??? Rick On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It is > very strong. > Hank > > On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I > went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by > PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use > it, just how bad it was if you breath it! > Dave, what have you been using? > Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone > know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. > Rick > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: > > Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it > out. > Rick > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w > computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to > be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire > extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 > eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be > able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" > wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" > in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight > arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For > straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a > couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire > against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have > been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about > an hour. Have fun. > David > > On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks David. > Rick > > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. > David > > On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next > hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find > the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you > sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine > but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without > setting the styrofoam on fire. > Rick > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. > Hank > > On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. > Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of > the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil > applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the > first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the > exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two > adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three > more to go. > > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 18:18:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:18:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, This works pretty well for that. You'll get a hang of how much to spray - too little and it doesn't stick well, too much and you dissolve foam. Its a contact cement, so spray both surfaces but wait a bit before joining them together. Best, Alec On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 6:06 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. Will > this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? Is > the Ice starting to melt up there??? > Rick > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It is >> very strong. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I >> went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by >> PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use >> it, just how bad it was if you breath it! >> Dave, what have you been using? >> Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone >> know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. >> Rick >> >> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: >> >> Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it >> out. >> Rick >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w >> computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to >> be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire >> extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 >> eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be >> able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" >> wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" >> in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight >> arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For >> straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a >> couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire >> against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have >> been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about >> an hour. Have fun. >> David >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks David. >> Rick >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >> David >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next >> hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find >> the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you >> sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine >> but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without >> setting the styrofoam on fire. >> Rick >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. >> Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of >> the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil >> applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the >> first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >> more to go. >> >> David >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0182.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 562923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 18:55:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 22:55:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> Rick the ice is out and I have already been diving Gamma. ?Yes mono foam is perfect for glueing foam to foam. ?Hardware stores all carry it. ?It comes in a spray can and expands when it hits the air. ?Get low expansion mono foam and it is super cheap.Hank On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:46:15 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. Will this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? Is the Ice starting to melt up there???Rick On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam.? It is very strong.Hank On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use it, just how bad it was if you breath it!?Dave, what have you been using??Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one.Rick On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it out.Rick On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be able to cut 36"? x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" in about 4 min.? I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam,? and i draw the hotwire against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about an hour. Have fun.David On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks David.Rick On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig.David On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without setting the styrofoam on fire.Rick? On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Dave, pretty clever using tin foil.?Hank On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two adjacent to the rear pilot.? Now that i got the form work dialed in, three more to go. David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 18:59:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 22:59:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2083625900.2926893.1557269940815@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, this is a different brand but its what you need. ?The brand does not matter.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:57:41 PM MDTSubject: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/great-stuff-big-gap-filler-16-oz-smart-dispenser-insulating-foam-sealant/1001181676 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2019-05-07 at 4.57 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10943 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 19:53:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 13:53:53 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <2083625900.2926893.1557269940815@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2083625900.2926893.1557269940815@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, I'll check it out. Rick On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:59 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, this is a different brand but its what you need. The brand does not > matter. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* xxx xxxxx > *To:* hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:57:41 PM MDT > *Subject:* > > > https://www.homedepot.ca/product/great-stuff-big-gap-filler-16-oz-smart-dispenser-insulating-foam-sealant/1001181676 > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2019-05-07 at 4.57 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10943 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 21:26:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:26:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, i use the product great stuff. Spray on , let start to rise, push pieces together, hold with shiscabob sticks. I haven't had any pieces come apart during the shaping and shaping process. David On Tue, May 7, 2019, 3:56 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick the ice is out and I have already been diving Gamma. Yes mono foam > is perfect for glueing foam to foam. Hardware stores all carry it. It > comes in a spray can and expands when it hits the air. Get low expansion > mono foam and it is super cheap. > Hank > > On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:46:15 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. Will > this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? Is > the Ice starting to melt up there??? > Rick > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It is > very strong. > Hank > > On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I > went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by > PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use > it, just how bad it was if you breath it! > Dave, what have you been using? > Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone > know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. > Rick > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: > > Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it > out. > Rick > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w > computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to > be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire > extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 > eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be > able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" > wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" > in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight > arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For > straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a > couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire > against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have > been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about > an hour. Have fun. > David > > On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks David. > Rick > > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. > David > > On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next > hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find > the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you > sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine > but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without > setting the styrofoam on fire. > Rick > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. > Hank > > On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. > Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of > the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil > applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the > first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the > exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two > adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three > more to go. > > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image5194693567427563328.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 224005 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image7927658206439921452.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 286868 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 22:31:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 16:31:12 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David, Thanks. should I spray it on both pieces to be joined and can it be had at a regular hardware store or Home Depot? Rick On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 3:28 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, i use the product great stuff. Spray on , let start to rise, > push pieces together, hold with shiscabob sticks. I haven't had any pieces > come apart during the shaping and shaping process. > David > > On Tue, May 7, 2019, 3:56 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick the ice is out and I have already been diving Gamma. Yes mono foam >> is perfect for glueing foam to foam. Hardware stores all carry it. It >> comes in a spray can and expands when it hits the air. Get low expansion >> mono foam and it is super cheap. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:46:15 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. Will >> this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? Is >> the Ice starting to melt up there??? >> Rick >> >> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It is >> very strong. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I >> went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by >> PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use >> it, just how bad it was if you breath it! >> Dave, what have you been using? >> Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone >> know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. >> Rick >> >> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: >> >> Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it >> out. >> Rick >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w >> computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to >> be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire >> extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 >> eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be >> able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" >> wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" >> in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight >> arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For >> straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a >> couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire >> against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have >> been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in about >> an hour. Have fun. >> David >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks David. >> Rick >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >> David >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my next >> hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't find >> the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date you >> sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding machine >> but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut without >> setting the styrofoam on fire. >> Rick >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >> Hank >> >> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank today. >> Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over each of >> the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and tinfoil >> applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and then the >> first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >> more to go. >> >> David >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 7 23:56:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:56:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, I bought my at Home Depot. I would just put a couple of loops around the face in one side. Put to much on and you won't be able to keep the parts together as it expands. I tend to not put near the edges because it won't hot wire, and it sands different than the foam. David On Tue, May 7, 2019, 7:32 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, Thanks. should I spray it on both pieces to be joined and can it be > had at a regular hardware store or Home Depot? > Rick > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 3:28 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Rick, i use the product great stuff. Spray on , let start to rise, >> push pieces together, hold with shiscabob sticks. I haven't had any pieces >> come apart during the shaping and shaping process. >> David >> >> On Tue, May 7, 2019, 3:56 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Rick the ice is out and I have already been diving Gamma. Yes mono foam >>> is perfect for glueing foam to foam. Hardware stores all carry it. It >>> comes in a spray can and expands when it hits the air. Get low expansion >>> mono foam and it is super cheap. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:46:15 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. >>> Will this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? >>> Is the Ice starting to melt up there??? >>> Rick >>> >>> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It >>> is very strong. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? I >>> went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by >>> PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use >>> it, just how bad it was if you breath it! >>> Dave, what have you been using? >>> Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and anyone >>> know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: >>> >>> Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it >>> out. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w >>> computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to >>> be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire >>> extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 >>> eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be >>> able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" >>> wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" >>> in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight >>> arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For >>> straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a >>> couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire >>> against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have >>> been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in >>> about an hour. Have fun. >>> David >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks David. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >>> David >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my >>> next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't >>> find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date >>> you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding >>> machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut >>> without setting the styrofoam on fire. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>> more to go. >>> >>> David >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 8 00:03:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:03:24 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <2018318099.1257827.1556960900269@mail.yahoo.com> <1025089937.2884386.1557266508890@mail.yahoo.com> <1435500186.2918595.1557269742201@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey David Hadn't thought about the hot wire, thanks. Rick On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 5:57 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > I bought my at Home Depot. I would just put a couple of loops around the > face in one side. Put to much on and you won't be able to keep the parts > together as it expands. I tend to not put near the edges because it won't > hot wire, and it sands different than the foam. > David > > On Tue, May 7, 2019, 7:32 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> David, Thanks. should I spray it on both pieces to be joined and can it >> be had at a regular hardware store or Home Depot? >> Rick >> >> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 3:28 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, i use the product great stuff. Spray on , let start to rise, >>> push pieces together, hold with shiscabob sticks. I haven't had any pieces >>> come apart during the shaping and shaping process. >>> David >>> >>> On Tue, May 7, 2019, 3:56 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Rick the ice is out and I have already been diving Gamma. Yes mono >>>> foam is perfect for glueing foam to foam. Hardware stores all carry it. >>>> It comes in a spray can and expands when it hits the air. Get low >>>> expansion mono foam and it is super cheap. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 4:46:15 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hank, I am gluing two blocks of Styrofoam together, not to concrete. >>>> Will this Mono foam still be the thing to use? If so, where can you buy it? >>>> Is the Ice starting to melt up there??? >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Rick I glue styrofoam blocks to concrete with plain old mono foam. It >>>> is very strong. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 3:43:28 PM MDT, Rick Patton via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can someone recommend a good adhesive for joining Styrofoam together?? >>>> I went to Home Depot and they recommended a product called Gripper made by >>>> PPG. When I got home and read the instructions, it didn't say how to use >>>> it, just how bad it was if you breath it! >>>> Dave, what have you been using? >>>> Also, is there a specific date of the year for the convention and >>>> anyone know were it will be? Gonna try and make this one. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:08 AM Rick Patton wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks David, quite a set up! glad it worked well for ya. I'll check it >>>> out. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:49 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Rick, here are photos of the hot wire rig I built. Parts are 300w >>>> computer power supply, use 5v output wire. Two j boxes, one std outlet to >>>> be wired as 5v. Second j box has variable control. Two std two wire >>>> extension cords, i used 12ft., 1 inch pvc pipe, sweeps, and caps. 4 >>>> eyebolts with nylock and std nuts. Nicrome wire. I built my large bow to be >>>> able to cut 36" x 12" deep foam blocks, the two hand held wands i use 24" >>>> wire. The hand held rig runs hotter and cuts faster. The large rig cuts 48" >>>> in about 4 min. I did not put a bow tightner and so it cuts with slight >>>> arc as it cuts, nothing that has caused any issues with straightness. For >>>> straight edges i used two drywall squares which are 48" long, and with a >>>> couple of 3" screws they are held to the foam, and i draw the hotwire >>>> against them. It works pretty slick. All of the foam pieces i have cut have >>>> been done with these two rigs. Total cost, less than $30. Built in >>>> about an hour. Have fun. >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks David. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 6:14 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Rick, I'll send pictures and notes tomorrow on my rig. >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 8:25 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Looking good Dave! I have yet to form my styrofoam block but it's my >>>> next hurdle. I think you explained how you made your hot wire but I can't >>>> find the thread. Would love to know how you did it or let me know what date >>>> you sent it and I'll try and find it in the archives. I have a welding >>>> machine but it may be too much oomph even on it's lowest setting to cut >>>> without setting the styrofoam on fire. >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 11:09 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dave, pretty clever using tin foil. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019, 9:02:41 PM MDT, David Colombo via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, working on the first inner mold form for the ballast tank >>>> today. Sliced the foam to 1/4" sheets, and trapazoid shapes to sit over >>>> each of the tribs. Then tapped it into place and then spray glued and >>>> tinfoil applied to protect the foam. Tomorrow a couple of coats of wax and >>>> then the first layer of matt glass. The inner shell will be attached to the >>>> exoskeleton to create the ballast tanks. Plan is 4 total, two aft and two >>>> adjacent to the rear pilot. Now that i got the form work dialed in, three >>>> more to go. >>>> >>>> David >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 16:32:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:32:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 16:56:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:56:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Congrats Brian, Are you fresh or salt water? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 1:33 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a > few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional > buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:15:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 14:15:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509141546.7F21BB0D@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:16:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 21:16:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1874888841.65311.1557436604098@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,You get first prize for classy test facility. ?Congratulations! ?you sure got some big ass vent valvesHank On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Finally went all the way under !? ? Need to adjust a few things.? Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:29:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:29:53 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <1874888841.65311.1557436604098@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> <1874888841.65311.1557436604098@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brian, Congratulations! The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in the Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? Alan > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:39:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 17:39:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> <1874888841.65311.1557436604098@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congratulations Brian! On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 5:30 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > Congratulations! > The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. > Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in > the > Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver > on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. > Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? > Alan > > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure > got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a > few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional > buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:43:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 14:43:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 17:43:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 14:43:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509144341.7F21B9BA@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 18:15:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 15:15:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <004401d506b4$af4767b0$0dd63710$@telus.net> Congrats , Brian. Very nice. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 1:33 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Hi all, Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 18:44:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 10:44:30 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <56EDD8D6-CD14-4711-A612-6C03F4AC1CFB@yahoo.com> Hi Brian, In the video I thought the strap around the sphere looked looser than the strap at the back. The crane operator should have had them slack, shouldn't he! So what's the plan to go forward? Alan > On 10/05/2019, at 9:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > That video with me rocking back and forth was with absolutely no lead ballast in the bottom, so it was very unstable at that point. > > It's basically too heavy, so I can reduce the lead ballast somewhat, but if I take too much out it will be more unstable during the transition stage. It was hard to get a good reading on what was happening because I couldn't tell if the front straps were supporting the front of the sub. I think they were though, I did a test where I tried to bring the nose up by it self and I couldn't do it , so that tells me that the nose is still a bit heavy. I think I want to get one of those fiberglass hp tanks that Hank was talking about. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! > Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:29:53 +1200 > > Brian, > Congratulations! > The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. > Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in the > Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver > on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. > Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? > Alan > > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 18:47:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 10:47:42 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <4E6E3B42-E476-4689-9106-D4A77541AB4C@yahoo.com> Brian, I get confused about what you call front & back. I think you were Transiting on the surface in one direction & diving in another. Is the occupancy sphere being called the front? Alan > On 10/05/2019, at 9:43 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > That video with me rocking back and forth was with absolutely no lead ballast in the bottom, so it was very unstable at that point. > > It's basically too heavy, so I can reduce the lead ballast somewhat, but if I take too much out it will be more unstable during the transition stage. It was hard to get a good reading on what was happening because I couldn't tell if the front straps were supporting the front of the sub. I think they were though, I did a test where I tried to bring the nose up by it self and I couldn't do it , so that tells me that the nose is still a bit heavy. I think I want to get one of those fiberglass hp tanks that Hank was talking about. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! > Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:29:53 +1200 > > Brian, > Congratulations! > The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. > Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in the > Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver > on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. > Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? > Alan > > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 19:00:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 19:00:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190509144310.7F21B988@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <94050939-B2F3-44D3-B34E-2225827EAD52@gmail.com> Hi Brian, That was a big step, congrats! I thought the video looked like you were not far off at all on buoyancy, because the straps appear quite loose. Good trim too! Also it seems there?s just oodles of volume in the MBTs. When you say you couldn?t get the bow to rise, d?you mean even blowing the forward MBT? Given it?s apparently generous volume, that would seem surprising. Thanks, Alec Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alan, > That video with me rocking back and forth was with absolutely no lead ballast in the bottom, so it was very unstable at that point. > > It's basically too heavy, so I can reduce the lead ballast somewhat, but if I take too much out it will be more unstable during the transition stage. It was hard to get a good reading on what was happening because I couldn't tell if the front straps were supporting the front of the sub. I think they were though, I did a test where I tried to bring the nose up by it self and I couldn't do it , so that tells me that the nose is still a bit heavy. I think I want to get one of those fiberglass hp tanks that Hank was talking about. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! > Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:29:53 +1200 > > Brian, > Congratulations! > The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. > Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in the > Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver > on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. > Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? > Alan > > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 19:05:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 16:05:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509160505.7F218ED3@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 19:19:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 16:19:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509161948.7F218F7C@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 19:47:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 16:47:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509161948.7F218F7C@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190509161948.7F218F7C@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I was thinking that it might be a good idea on these type of tests to have your comms and VHF up and running so your in complete control of the operator with the lift. Also for us watching, we could hear what was going on inside the sub as well while your are manipulating the ballast controls. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 4:20 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, The Sphere is the stern and the pointy part is the bow , on the > surface anyway. You can see in the video once I'm totally submerged there > is still a far amount of air in the ballast. When I blew the front tank ( > which you can't see because of the shell) it lowered the nose a bit and > that transferred some additional air ( in the main ballast) back to my main > ballast vent. So the situation is, that if the nose is too high some air > can get trapped in there that I cannot vent unless the attitude is > changed. > > And thanks to everyone for your congrats ! I sure found it hard to sleep > last night knowing this was finally going to happen ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! > Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 19:00:57 -0400 > > Hi Brian, > > That was a big step, congrats! I thought the video looked like you were > not far off at all on buoyancy, because the straps appear quite loose. Good > trim too! Also it seems there?s just oodles of volume in the MBTs. When you > say you couldn?t get the bow to rise, d?you mean even blowing the forward > MBT? Given it?s apparently generous volume, that would seem surprising. > > Thanks, > Alec > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Alan, > That video with me rocking back and forth was with > absolutely no lead ballast in the bottom, so it was very unstable at that > point. > > It's basically too heavy, so I can reduce the lead ballast somewhat, but > if I take too much out it will be more unstable during the transition > stage. It was hard to get a good reading on what was happening because I > couldn't tell if the front straps were supporting the front of the sub. I > think they were though, I did a test where I tried to bring the nose up by > it self and I couldn't do it , so that tells me that the nose is still a > bit heavy. I think I want to get one of those fiberglass hp tanks that > Hank was talking about. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! > Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:29:53 +1200 > > Brian, > Congratulations! > The sub is looking good with all your recent modifications. > Did you test the stability at all? I know in a previous video you were in > the > Conning tower rocking her about. Would have liked to have seen a diver > on the outside trying to pull her over as you went down. > Looked like you could trim her well, were you happy with that? > Alan > > On 10/05/2019, at 9:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Brian, > You get first prize for classy test facility. Congratulations! you sure > got some big ass vent valves > Hank > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 2:32:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > Finally went all the way under ! Need to adjust a > few things. Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional > buoyancy in the nose. > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlPXqX9Vmgo > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 9 21:20:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 18:20:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190509182045.7F1E2388@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 10 10:08:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 14:08:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! In-Reply-To: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190509133239.7F21A002@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <553544689.325039.1557497335844@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, congratulations on successful duck test!? It is always an encouragement to those building boats to see a builder reach the first dunk test.? I guess we have to call you Captain Cox now. If it were me I would not make any ballast changes based on this test because it is unclear how much the bow and stern lifting straps were loaded.? I would be more inclined to repeat the test with the straps completely loose or even removed now that you have proved you can submerge and surface.? One way to deal with unequal decent during MBT flooding is to fabricate a series orifice restrictions with different diameters that can be inserted into the aft MBT vent port.? Then execute a MBT flood and see which orifice size give the most stable decent.? I did this for my boat and it worked great. Please keep sending progress videos of your testing. Best RegardsCliff On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 3:33:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Finally went all the way under !? ? Need to adjust a few things.? Combination of less ballast weight overall and some additional buoyancy in the nose. submerge1? | | | | | | | | | | | submerge1 First submerge of Esmarelda | | | Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 10 10:50:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 07:50:22 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190510075022.7F1E7076@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 10 11:34:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 08:34:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submerge ! Message-ID: <20190510083412.7F2335F8@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 11 07:10:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:10:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Riv Nut tool - my new best friend Message-ID: Where has this been all my life? In the few places I've used screw in bolts to hold things in Harold, drilling and tapping the ribs was a major pain and tool breaker. This thing, drill a hole you're done. Why didn't the tool mentors tell me about this thing years ago?!?!? Brian https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2834-Black-Nutsert-Tool/dp/B01HDYW44K/ref=asc_df_B01HDYW44K/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241896598945&hvpos=1o5&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14495645257294348732&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008062&hvtargid=pla-524049154200&psc=1 Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 11 15:18:21 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 07:18:21 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Riv Nut tool - my new best friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, I hadn't seen that before, but had to watch a video to see how it worked. Earlier this year I brought up the subject of embedding inserts in fibreglass for attaching things to my ballast tank & exostructure etc. One good tip I got from someone was to square off the embedded section of the rivet so It can never turn under tightening force. Alan > On 11/05/2019, at 11:10 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Where has this been all my life? In the few places I've used screw in bolts to hold things in Harold, drilling and tapping the ribs was a major pain and tool breaker. This thing, drill a hole you're done. Why didn't the tool mentors tell me about this thing years ago?!?!? > > Brian > > https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2834-Black-Nutsert-Tool/dp/B01HDYW44K/ref=asc_df_B01HDYW44K/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241896598945&hvpos=1o5&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14495645257294348732&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008062&hvtargid=pla-524049154200&psc=1 > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 12 10:56:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 08:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Riv Nut tool - my new best friend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1704673270.63885989.1557673006214.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Nutserts are even available in stainless! ;) From: "personal submersibles" To: "personal submersibles" Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2019 3:18:21 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Riv Nut tool - my new best friend Brian, I hadn't seen that before, but had to watch a video to see how it worked. Earlier this year I brought up the subject of embedding inserts in fibreglass for attaching things to my ballast tank & exostructure etc. One good tip I got from someone was to square off the embedded section of the rivet so It can never turn under tightening force. Alan On 11/05/2019, at 11:10 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Where has this been all my life? In the few places I've used screw in bolts to hold things in Harold, drilling and tapping the ribs was a major pain and tool breaker. This thing, drill a hole you're done. Why didn't the tool mentors tell me about this thing years ago?!?!? Brian https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2834-Black-Nutsert-Tool/dp/B01HDYW44K/ref=asc_df_B01HDYW44K/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241896598945&hvpos=1o5&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14495645257294348732&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008062&hvtargid=pla-524049154200&psc=1 Get Outlook for Android BQ_BEGIN _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles BQ_END _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 14 12:21:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:21:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion In-Reply-To: <6FAD2D16-C204-4E1F-8D4B-AB6AEA9EF819@yahoo.com> References: <7355385D-2BD0-40E6-8B25-40FEBF1035FA@yahoo.com> <6FAD2D16-C204-4E1F-8D4B-AB6AEA9EF819@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2022746683.2056100.1557850909796@mail.yahoo.com> Dr. Jim Craft, the Science Point for the Expedition from the Flathead Lake Bio Station (University of Montana)? has drafted the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition science objectives(attached).? Jim has the surface crew and psub boat captains documenting any observations we will make during the dive.? Surface crew will be recording data such as GPS location, depth, altitude of subs, and documenting an comments crew makes.?? For the R300 I have been experimenting with different ways to come up with an Audio Captains Log kind of like what Captain Kirk uses on the USS Enterprise!? I tried a number of cheap Chinese audio recording devices and was just not happy with ease of use and audio quality.? I was looking for a KISS easy to use device that would sit in the background and record MP3 files and if not in use, go into sleep mode to get long battery use.? After a few tries, I found a unit that is working great.? It is built in Korea.? The device is the MQ-L500 150 Voice Activated Recorder from MEMOQ.? These come up on Ebay all the time at $90.??https://www.ebay.com/itm/MQ-L500-Power-Bank-Audio-Recorder-Hidden-Spy-Voice-Activation-Recording-Device/153122811398?epid=17024703124&hash=item23a6d4ae06:g:q~8AAOSw51xbYgyE The unit is build solidly with dimensions of? 3.5", 1" .75" and weighs about as much as a roll of pennies and is about the same size so has a nice solid weighty feel.? Only has a roll switch that has positions of off, continuous mode or intermittent mode and a switch to display the battery level.? It came with a small magnet which I replaced with a larger one that I epoxy-ed to the device. This make it easy to attached it to the interior hull.? In the voice activated mode, the unit will record for an amazing 150 days.? In continuous mode, it will record for 14 hours.? To charge and transfer MP3 sound files to your laptop you use a USB cable that is provided.? In continuous mode it records in 5 hour segments.? The files are date and time stamped so it makes it easy to document when an event occurs.? Because the recording is to a solid state memory chip this unit also serves the role of cockpit voice recorder (CVR), in the event someone every had to do an accident investigation.? The unit has a built in mic so it will record when using either surface comes in VHF or underwater comms like OTS gear without having to plug these units into the recorder.? Something to consider. OAS, we still have one cabin with three beds available at the Flathead Lake Bio Station (FLBS) where we will be using as a base station for the week (Aug 5-9) if anyone is considering coming.? If anyone needs more info on the cabins, let me know and I will provide. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Science mission Submarine Excursion to Flathead Lake August 5th.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 15045 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 14 13:30:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:30:33 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion Message-ID: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 14 19:26:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:26:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion In-Reply-To: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Great idea Cliff. Sure wish I had one when on the bottom of Lake Tahoe. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:31 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I love it ! Captain's log star date .... alien octopus attacking > ship.. I used to have a really good quality Sony voice recorder > that would store 72 + hours of audio, with a SD card I think you could > extend the storage. > > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Cc: Jim Craft > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion > Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:21:49 +0000 (UTC) > > Dr. Jim Craft, the Science Point for the Expedition from the Flathead Lake > Bio Station (University of Montana) has drafted the 2019 Flathead Lake > Expedition science objectives(attached). Jim has the surface crew and psub > boat captains documenting any observations we will make during the dive. > Surface crew will be recording data such as GPS location, depth, altitude > of subs, and documenting an comments crew makes. > > For the R300 I have been experimenting with different ways to come up with > an Audio Captains Log kind of like what Captain Kirk uses on the USS > Enterprise! I tried a number of cheap Chinese audio recording devices and > was just not happy with ease of use and audio quality. I was looking for a > KISS easy to use device that would sit in the background and record MP3 > files and if not in use, go into sleep mode to get long battery use. After > a few tries, I found a unit that is working great. It is built in Korea. > The device is the MQ-L500 150 Voice Activated Recorder from MEMOQ. These > come up on Ebay all the time at $90. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/MQ-L500-Power-Bank-Audio-Recorder-Hidden-Spy-Voice-Activation-Recording-Device/153122811398?epid=17024703124&hash=item23a6d4ae06:g:q~8AAOSw51xbYgyE > > The unit is build solidly with dimensions of 3.5", 1" .75" and weighs > about as much as a roll of pennies and is about the same size so has a nice > solid weighty feel. Only has a roll switch that has positions of off, > continuous mode or intermittent mode and a switch to display the battery > level. It came with a small magnet which I replaced with a larger one that > I epoxy-ed to the device. This make it easy to attached it to the interior > hull. In the voice activated mode, the unit will record for an amazing 150 > days. In continuous mode, it will record for 14 hours. To charge and > transfer MP3 sound files to your laptop you use a USB cable that is > provided. In continuous mode it records in 5 hour segments. The files are > date and time stamped so it makes it easy to document when an event > occurs. Because the recording is to a solid state memory chip this unit > also serves the role of cockpit voice recorder (CVR), in the event someone > every had to do an accident investigation. The unit has a built in mic so > it will record when using either surface comes in VHF or underwater comms > like OTS gear without having to plug these units into the recorder. > Something to consider. > > OAS, we still have one cabin with three beds available at the Flathead > Lake Bio Station (FLBS) where we will be using as a base station for the > week (Aug 5-9) if anyone is considering coming. If anyone needs more info > on the cabins, let me know and I will provide. > > Cliff > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 14 22:06:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 22:06:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion In-Reply-To: References: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: That's an interesting find! Remember also that if you are using OTS comms, there is a line out. If you used it, you will record the audio of both sub pilot and surface controller. It can be done with something as simple as a smart phone. I'm not suggesting replacing the separate log, but it would be a great thing to have the comms track for video production. Those science objectives are written 100% in the language and style of marine ecology text books, which is to say they're a reading comprehension quiz, but I do like the content. They're going to end up making citizen scientists out of us underwater mechanics. Best, Alec On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 7:27 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Great idea Cliff. Sure wish I had one when on the bottom of Lake Tahoe. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:31 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I love it ! Captain's log star date .... alien octopus attacking >> ship.. I used to have a really good quality Sony voice recorder >> that would store 72 + hours of audio, with a SD card I think you could >> extend the storage. >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Cc: Jim Craft >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion >> Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:21:49 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Dr. Jim Craft, the Science Point for the Expedition from the Flathead >> Lake Bio Station (University of Montana) has drafted the 2019 Flathead >> Lake Expedition science objectives(attached). Jim has the surface crew and >> psub boat captains documenting any observations we will make during the >> dive. Surface crew will be recording data such as GPS location, depth, >> altitude of subs, and documenting an comments crew makes. >> >> For the R300 I have been experimenting with different ways to come up >> with an Audio Captains Log kind of like what Captain Kirk uses on the USS >> Enterprise! I tried a number of cheap Chinese audio recording devices and >> was just not happy with ease of use and audio quality. I was looking for a >> KISS easy to use device that would sit in the background and record MP3 >> files and if not in use, go into sleep mode to get long battery use. After >> a few tries, I found a unit that is working great. It is built in Korea. >> The device is the MQ-L500 150 Voice Activated Recorder from MEMOQ. These >> come up on Ebay all the time at $90. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MQ-L500-Power-Bank-Audio-Recorder-Hidden-Spy-Voice-Activation-Recording-Device/153122811398?epid=17024703124&hash=item23a6d4ae06:g:q~8AAOSw51xbYgyE >> >> The unit is build solidly with dimensions of 3.5", 1" .75" and weighs >> about as much as a roll of pennies and is about the same size so has a nice >> solid weighty feel. Only has a roll switch that has positions of off, >> continuous mode or intermittent mode and a switch to display the battery >> level. It came with a small magnet which I replaced with a larger one that >> I epoxy-ed to the device. This make it easy to attached it to the interior >> hull. In the voice activated mode, the unit will record for an amazing 150 >> days. In continuous mode, it will record for 14 hours. To charge and >> transfer MP3 sound files to your laptop you use a USB cable that is >> provided. In continuous mode it records in 5 hour segments. The files are >> date and time stamped so it makes it easy to document when an event >> occurs. Because the recording is to a solid state memory chip this unit >> also serves the role of cockpit voice recorder (CVR), in the event someone >> every had to do an accident investigation. The unit has a built in mic so >> it will record when using either surface comes in VHF or underwater comms >> like OTS gear without having to plug these units into the recorder. >> Something to consider. >> >> OAS, we still have one cabin with three beds available at the Flathead >> Lake Bio Station (FLBS) where we will be using as a base station for the >> week (Aug 5-9) if anyone is considering coming. If anyone needs more info >> on the cabins, let me know and I will provide. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 15 09:51:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:51:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion In-Reply-To: References: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <373438567.2621578.1557928264949@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, I concur. With this unit, it records everything, hatch closings, MBT valves opening, scrubber fan ... so would probably be to noisy for video.? I do note that the OTS head set has a mono male 3.5mm audio out jack.? I have tried this and it works well but would need to confirm that if it were plugged into a recorder, it would record both the TX and RX.? It might just be TX. I like your succinct description of Innerspacescience Expeditions??"making citizen scientists out of us underwater mechanics". Best Cliff On Tuesday, May 14, 2019, 9:07:52 PM CDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's an interesting find! Remember also that if you are using OTS comms, there is a line out. If you used it, you will record the audio of both sub pilot and surface controller. It can be done with something as simple as a smart phone. I'm not suggesting replacing the separate log, but it would be a great thing to have the comms track for video production. Those science objectives are written 100% in the language and style of marine ecology text books, which is to say they're a reading comprehension quiz, but I do like the content. They're going to end up making citizen scientists out of us underwater mechanics. Best,Alec? On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 7:27 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great idea Cliff. Sure wish I had one when on the bottom of Lake Tahoe. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:31 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I love it !? ? Captain's log star date ....? ? alien octopus attacking ship..? ? ? ? ? I used to have a really good quality Sony voice recorder that would store 72 + hours of audio,? with a SD card I think you could extend the storage. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Jim Craft Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:21:49 +0000 (UTC) Dr. Jim Craft, the Science Point for the Expedition from the Flathead Lake Bio Station (University of Montana)? has drafted the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition science objectives(attached).? Jim has the surface crew and psub boat captains documenting any observations we will make during the dive.? Surface crew will be recording data such as GPS location, depth, altitude of subs, and documenting an comments crew makes.?? For the R300 I have been experimenting with different ways to come up with an Audio Captains Log kind of like what Captain Kirk uses on the USS Enterprise!? I tried a number of cheap Chinese audio recording devices and was just not happy with ease of use and audio quality.? I was looking for a KISS easy to use device that would sit in the background and record MP3 files and if not in use, go into sleep mode to get long battery use.? After a few tries, I found a unit that is working great.? It is built in Korea.? The device is the MQ-L500 150 Voice Activated Recorder from MEMOQ.? These come up on Ebay all the time at $90.??https://www.ebay.com/itm/MQ-L500-Power-Bank-Audio-Recorder-Hidden-Spy-Voice-Activation-Recording-Device/153122811398?epid=17024703124&hash=item23a6d4ae06:g:q~8AAOSw51xbYgyE The unit is build solidly with dimensions of? 3.5", 1" .75" and weighs about as much as a roll of pennies and is about the same size so has a nice solid weighty feel.? Only has a roll switch that has positions of off, continuous mode or intermittent mode and a switch to display the battery level.? It came with a small magnet which I replaced with a larger one that I epoxy-ed to the device. This make it easy to attached it to the interior hull.? In the voice activated mode, the unit will record for an amazing 150 days.? In continuous mode, it will record for 14 hours.? To charge and transfer MP3 sound files to your laptop you use a USB cable that is provided.? In continuous mode it records in 5 hour segments.? The files are date and time stamped so it makes it easy to document when an event occurs.? Because the recording is to a solid state memory chip this unit also serves the role of cockpit voice recorder (CVR), in the event someone every had to do an accident investigation.? The unit has a built in mic so it will record when using either surface comes in VHF or underwater comms like OTS gear without having to plug these units into the recorder.? Something to consider. OAS, we still have one cabin with three beds available at the Flathead Lake Bio Station (FLBS) where we will be using as a base station for the week (Aug 5-9) if anyone is considering coming.? If anyone needs more info on the cabins, let me know and I will provide. Cliff _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 15 09:53:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:53:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion In-Reply-To: References: <20190514103033.7F214452@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <388655828.2639371.1557928388587@mail.yahoo.com> When I was testing this recorder / CVR, that was just what I was thinking.? It sure would have been interesting to hear Dave Colombo when he snagged that rope at the bottom of Lake Tahoe! Best Cliff On Tuesday, May 14, 2019, 6:27:16 PM CDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Great idea Cliff. Sure wish I had one when on the bottom of Lake Tahoe. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:31 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I love it !? ? Captain's log star date ....? ? alien octopus attacking ship..? ? ? ? ? I used to have a really good quality Sony voice recorder that would store 72 + hours of audio,? with a SD card I think you could extend the storage. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Cc: Jim Craft Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2019 Flathead Lake Expedtion Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:21:49 +0000 (UTC) Dr. Jim Craft, the Science Point for the Expedition from the Flathead Lake Bio Station (University of Montana)? has drafted the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition science objectives(attached).? Jim has the surface crew and psub boat captains documenting any observations we will make during the dive.? Surface crew will be recording data such as GPS location, depth, altitude of subs, and documenting an comments crew makes.?? For the R300 I have been experimenting with different ways to come up with an Audio Captains Log kind of like what Captain Kirk uses on the USS Enterprise!? I tried a number of cheap Chinese audio recording devices and was just not happy with ease of use and audio quality.? I was looking for a KISS easy to use device that would sit in the background and record MP3 files and if not in use, go into sleep mode to get long battery use.? After a few tries, I found a unit that is working great.? It is built in Korea.? The device is the MQ-L500 150 Voice Activated Recorder from MEMOQ.? These come up on Ebay all the time at $90.??https://www.ebay.com/itm/MQ-L500-Power-Bank-Audio-Recorder-Hidden-Spy-Voice-Activation-Recording-Device/153122811398?epid=17024703124&hash=item23a6d4ae06:g:q~8AAOSw51xbYgyE The unit is build solidly with dimensions of? 3.5", 1" .75" and weighs about as much as a roll of pennies and is about the same size so has a nice solid weighty feel.? Only has a roll switch that has positions of off, continuous mode or intermittent mode and a switch to display the battery level.? It came with a small magnet which I replaced with a larger one that I epoxy-ed to the device. This make it easy to attached it to the interior hull.? In the voice activated mode, the unit will record for an amazing 150 days.? In continuous mode, it will record for 14 hours.? To charge and transfer MP3 sound files to your laptop you use a USB cable that is provided.? In continuous mode it records in 5 hour segments.? The files are date and time stamped so it makes it easy to document when an event occurs.? Because the recording is to a solid state memory chip this unit also serves the role of cockpit voice recorder (CVR), in the event someone every had to do an accident investigation.? The unit has a built in mic so it will record when using either surface comes in VHF or underwater comms like OTS gear without having to plug these units into the recorder.? Something to consider. OAS, we still have one cabin with three beds available at the Flathead Lake Bio Station (FLBS) where we will be using as a base station for the week (Aug 5-9) if anyone is considering coming.? If anyone needs more info on the cabins, let me know and I will provide. Cliff _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 15 20:52:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 17:52:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] open access subs and sub pilot program kickstarter now live! Message-ID: Hey all, I know most of you strapped and occupied with your own sub projects, but for those who are currently subless or just want to support more access to subs and ocean exploration, we just launched our Kickstarter! We're offering public programs with our subs, as well as a sub pilot training certification agency that we are developing with Graham Hawkes and others! We're also going to be at Maker Faire with the big sub, definitely stop by if you attend! If you're local, you should try to go, it's amazing. Kickstarter link here (there are lots of cool rewards! And the video features Hank and Cliff!): bit.ly/communitysubmarines Best, Shanee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 16 17:33:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 14:33:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cheaper O2 monitor Message-ID: <20190516143308.7F22D5FD@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 16 19:36:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 23:36:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cheaper O2 monitor In-Reply-To: <20190516143308.7F22D5FD@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190516143308.7F22D5FD@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <697193503.887423.1558049807877@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, Their O2 sensor looks almost identical to OXYCHEQ...I wonder if they licensed from them.? You can purchase the "El Cheapo" O2 monitor for $110 although you have to do some soldering and put it together yourself.? Nuvair's remote model is a good price though for ready-to-use.? Sensors alone are generally around $80-$110 so getting the case, display, and nicely screen printed labeling is worth just buying theirs for $250. Their CO2 prices are high though.? Check CO2METER.COM for some cheaper alterhatives. Jon From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 5:35 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cheaper O2 monitor Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Been working with this local company that has made some things for my sub.? But I just recently realized that they have O2 and CO2 monitoring meters.? ?The O2 meter is cheaper than the one I recently bought , but the CO2 meter is more expensive, and I believe is more sophisticated .?? https://www.nuvair.com/products/analyzers/oxygen Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 16 20:04:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 17:04:23 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] cheaper O2 monitor Message-ID: <20190516170423.7F204E19@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 17 23:34:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 20:34:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar Message-ID: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 05:27:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 09:27:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <366155226.4205303.1558171671744@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Neat ideaHank On Friday, May 17, 2019, 9:35:13 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? ? ? I've been thinking about some sort of pinger locator for my sub.? I may get a commercially available one just as an extra safety?measure, but in the mean time I was playing around with my depth finder on my sailboat .? I was thinking if I had a rotating disk that would be a little higher than the sub the changing surface exposure to the sonar waves would appear on the depth finder as a recurring blip .? I tried it with a radar reflector that I have, I tied it to a line and located it just below my transducer, I was able to move it around and observe the display on the screen.? ?Since the radar reflector ( used on boats so big ships can see you) has all these sides to it, as I moved it around it would show up intermittently since the sound wave sometimes would not bounce back.? I think a flat surface rotated so only the edge is showing and then a large surface was showing at a regular intervals could work as an indicator.? ?I might be especially valuable?if you were blending into the bottom so much as to not be detectable .? That way someone with just an ordinary depth finder could detect you.?? Brian????_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 05:57:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 21:57:14 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <93B129A2-4B4B-43AC-85C0-28559BE72216@yahoo.com> Hi Brian, the fish finders work like a car head light, so it would be hard to locate a submarine that was outside it's cone of detection even if you moved it around. If for instance you were 500 yards away & 100ft deep it would probably be out of range & impossible to differentiate from anything else. Alan > On 18/05/2019, at 3:34 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I've been thinking about some sort of pinger locator for my sub. I may get a commercially available one just as an extra safety measure, but in the mean time I was playing around with my depth finder on my sailboat . I was thinking if I had a rotating disk that would be a little higher than the sub the changing surface exposure to the sonar waves would appear on the depth finder as a recurring blip . I tried it with a radar reflector that I have, I tied it to a line and located it just below my transducer, I was able to move it around and observe the display on the screen. Since the radar reflector ( used on boats so big ships can see you) has all these sides to it, as I moved it around it would show up intermittently since the sound wave sometimes would not bounce back. I think a flat surface rotated so only the edge is showing and then a large surface was showing at a regular intervals could work as an indicator. I might be especially valuable if you were blending into the bottom so much as to not be detectable . That way someone with just an ordinary depth finder could detect you. > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 10:15:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 07:15:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <001001d50d84$2a3a84e0$7eaf8ea0$@telus.net> Brian, What are you trying to do with the "passive sonar" that you are considering? Are you wanting to make your submarine more easily detectable by a surface boat with a depth sounder? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:35 PM To: PSubs Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar I've been thinking about some sort of pinger locator for my sub. I may get a commercially available one just as an extra safety measure, but in the mean time I was playing around with my depth finder on my sailboat . I was thinking if I had a rotating disk that would be a little higher than the sub the changing surface exposure to the sonar waves would appear on the depth finder as a recurring blip . I tried it with a radar reflector that I have, I tied it to a line and located it just below my transducer, I was able to move it around and observe the display on the screen. Since the radar reflector ( used on boats so big ships can see you) has all these sides to it, as I moved it around it would show up intermittently since the sound wave sometimes would not bounce back. I think a flat surface rotated so only the edge is showing and then a large surface was showing at a regular intervals could work as an indicator. I might be especially valuable if you were blending into the bottom so much as to not be detectable . That way someone with just an ordinary depth finder could detect you. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 10:52:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 14:52:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190517203458.7F1DB684@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <231011168.2581240.1558191140881@mail.yahoo.com> Interesting idea Brian.? I guess the effectiveness would depend upon the beam width of the depth sounder but the deeper you were the wider that beam would be as well.? It looks like lower frequency transducers have wider beams.? I wonder if there's a way to calculate beam width at various depths. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 13:25:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 10:25:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar Message-ID: <20190518102539.7F1DAC73@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 14:56:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 08:56:27 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190518102539.7F1DAC73@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190518102539.7F1DAC73@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: I bought a cheap depth sounder/fish finder that I thought I would mount up front facing horizontal and my thought would be that if I were trying to locate a wreck or an atoll that was out of visibility, assuming that the bottom was relatively flat, I could rotate 360 degrees and look for a depth that was showing close. I would probably have to rotate very slowly for it to show but I figured for the price, it was worth trying. I spoke with Garmin who built it and they weren't sure it would work in that capacity as the signal comes out as a cone and if I was close to the bottom, I might be picking up the bottom right away? The did sell much more expensive forward looking sonars for yachts but trying to keep my costs down per wife. I will probably take it down to the dock and clip the transponder to a stick and hold it horizontal just underwater and see how it does. I'll let ya know the results when I do. Rick On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 7:26 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Tim, > Yes that's the idea. On my Garmin depth finder > there is an optional screen which is simply stationary screen and then > there is the screen that is moving , which gives you a "history" of the > last few seconds of scanning . But it would be interesting to play around > with the detect ability of something like that. Not sure how practical it > would ultimately be. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar > Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 07:15:35 -0700 > > Brian, > > What are you trying to do with the "passive sonar" that you are > considering? Are you wanting to make your submarine more easily detectable > by a surface boat with a depth sounder? > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 8:35 PM > *To:* PSubs > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar > > > > I've been thinking about some sort of pinger locator for my sub. > I may get a commercially available one just as an extra safety measure, but > in the mean time I was playing around with my depth finder on my sailboat > . I was thinking if I had a rotating disk that would be a little higher > than the sub the changing surface exposure to the sonar waves would appear > on the depth finder as a recurring blip . I tried it with a radar > reflector that I have, I tied it to a line and located it just below my > transducer, I was able to move it around and observe the display on the > screen. Since the radar reflector ( used on boats so big ships can see > you) has all these sides to it, as I moved it around it would show up > intermittently since the sound wave sometimes would not bounce back. I > think a flat surface rotated so only the edge is showing and then a large > surface was showing at a regular intervals could work as an indicator. I > might be especially valuable if you were blending into the bottom so much > as to not be detectable . That way someone with just an ordinary depth > finder could detect you. > > > > Brian > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 15:23:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:23:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar In-Reply-To: <20190518102539.7F1DAC73@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190518102539.7F1DAC73@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <003101d50daf$349b2b80$9dd18280$@telus.net> Brian, Since you are depending on the surface vessel to see you with its equipment there may not be much that you can do. Most fish finders would likely paint your shape proud off the bottom, and maybe as a big fish while in the water column. Unless other have had experience with that scenario, trials would answer those questions. It would be interesting to see how an upward pointing transducer on your sub would be detected and painted by a surface based depth sounder. Would your signal not "jam" the other's display? It's worth a try. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 10:26 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar Tim, Yes that's the idea. On my Garmin depth finder there is an optional screen which is simply stationary screen and then there is the screen that is moving , which gives you a "history" of the last few seconds of scanning . But it would be interesting to play around with the detect ability of something like that. Not sure how practical it would ultimately be. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: T Novak via Personal_Submersibles > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 07:15:35 -0700 Brian, What are you trying to do with the "passive sonar" that you are considering? Are you wanting to make your submarine more easily detectable by a surface boat with a depth sounder? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:35 PM To: PSubs > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar I've been thinking about some sort of pinger locator for my sub. I may get a commercially available one just as an extra safety measure, but in the mean time I was playing around with my depth finder on my sailboat . I was thinking if I had a rotating disk that would be a little higher than the sub the changing surface exposure to the sonar waves would appear on the depth finder as a recurring blip . I tried it with a radar reflector that I have, I tied it to a line and located it just below my transducer, I was able to move it around and observe the display on the screen. Since the radar reflector ( used on boats so big ships can see you) has all these sides to it, as I moved it around it would show up intermittently since the sound wave sometimes would not bounce back. I think a flat surface rotated so only the edge is showing and then a large surface was showing at a regular intervals could work as an indicator. I might be especially valuable if you were blending into the bottom so much as to not be detectable . That way someone with just an ordinary depth finder could detect you. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 16:42:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 13:42:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] passive sonar Message-ID: <20190518134237.7F1D9625@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 18:32:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:32:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam Message-ID: Just addressed something that I have not been looking forward to and it worked great! I had some thin SS wire laying around so I figured out the length I needed it to be then attached one end to the ground clamp of my welding machine and the other end to my electrode holder, set the machine on its lowest setting ( 10 to 55 amps DC ) then started turning up the rheostat with the wire pulled tight and at 40% the wire started going through the styrofoam like butter! So anyone that has a welder and will be cutting styrofoam in the future, this works great. Rick -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1902.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100267 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 18 20:51:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 00:51:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2107089656.4369131.1558227063213@mail.yahoo.com> Nice!Hank On Saturday, May 18, 2019, 5:34:37 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Just addressed something that I have not been looking forward to and it worked great! I had some thin SS wire laying around so I figured out the length I needed it to be then attached one end to the ground clamp of my welding machine and the other end to my electrode holder, set the machine on its lowest setting ( 10 to 55 amps DC ) then started turning up the rheostat with the wire pulled tight and at 40% the wire started going through the styrofoam like butter! So anyone that has a welder and will be cutting styrofoam in the future, this works great. Rick Sent from my iPhone_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 19 00:54:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 21:54:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam Message-ID: <20190518215400.7F1D9B9A@m0117458.ppops.net> Doesn't the foam compress under pressure? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: psubs chat room Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:32:55 -1000 Just addressed something that I have not been looking forward to and it worked great! I had some thin SS wire laying around so I figured out the length I needed it to be then attached one end to the ground clamp of my welding machine and the other end to my electrode holder, set the machine on its lowest setting ( 10 to 55 amps DC ) then started turning up the rheostat with the wire pulled tight and at 40% the wire started going through the styrofoam like butter! So anyone that has a welder and will be cutting styrofoam in the future, this works great. Rick Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 19 01:15:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 22:15:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam In-Reply-To: <20190518215400.7F1D9B9A@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190518215400.7F1D9B9A@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: Rick, a word of warning, if your cutting too hot and creating a smoke trail, its toxic. Too hot also creates a hardshell melting of the foam. Trial and error have been a good teacher for me, and a good mask filter is important. David On Sat, May 18, 2019, 9:55 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Doesn't the foam compress under pressure? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: psubs chat room > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam > Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:32:55 -1000 > > Just addressed something that I have not been looking forward to and it > worked great! > I had some thin SS wire laying around so I figured out the length I needed > it to be then attached one end to the ground clamp of my welding machine > and the other end to my electrode holder, set the machine on its lowest > setting ( 10 to 55 amps DC ) then started turning up the rheostat with the > wire pulled tight and at 40% the wire started going through the styrofoam > like butter! So anyone that has a welder and will be cutting styrofoam in > the future, this works great. > Rick > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 19 01:35:21 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:35:21 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam In-Reply-To: References: <20190518215400.7F1D9B9A@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: The Styrofoam is just for a mold to lay up the fiberglass for the MBT's so it will never see any pressure and I set the amps just hot enough that there is no smoke emitted which is nice. I took a video of me cutting it and will try and upload it but not sure if it will work. Rick On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 7:16 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, a word of warning, if your cutting too hot and creating a smoke > trail, its toxic. Too hot also creates a hardshell melting of the foam. > Trial and error have been a good teacher for me, and a good mask filter is > important. > > David > > On Sat, May 18, 2019, 9:55 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Doesn't the foam compress under pressure? >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: psubs chat room >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Cutting styrofoam >> Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:32:55 -1000 >> >> Just addressed something that I have not been looking forward to and it >> worked great! >> I had some thin SS wire laying around so I figured out the length I >> needed it to be then attached one end to the ground clamp of my welding >> machine and the other end to my electrode holder, set the machine on its >> lowest setting ( 10 to 55 amps DC ) then started turning up the rheostat >> with the wire pulled tight and at 40% the wire started going through the >> styrofoam like butter! So anyone that has a welder and will be cutting >> styrofoam in the future, this works great. >> Rick >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 19 01:36:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:36:19 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hot wire Message-ID: <7A2C08C4-5324-4BEF-93AE-F4CF2D1D0FDC@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 19 12:51:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 16:51:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VBT References: <1981323538.4499544.1558284666362.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1981323538.4499544.1558284666362@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, ?Did you guys know that Nekton subs were built with a VBT'? ?I put one in today because I have a job next weekend to video a sewer outfall in Kootenay Lake that starts shallow and goes to 200 feet deep . ?It would be tricky to follow the pipe precisely if I had to also maintain neutral buoyancy as well as stay on coarse. ?My VBT is plumbed into the original VBT ports ?with a fill valve at the bottom of the tank witch is an aluminum CO2 tank. ?There is a tee at the top of the tank with a vent valve and an air pressure line that comes from a regulator. ?To fill I just let the water flood in the bottom of the tank. ?To remove the water I close the vent valve and pressurize the tank. ?I can let a little water out or a lot by simply opening the fill valve. ?If it works out and I like having it I can install a hand pump for fine control. ? I also installed a new propeller with more pitch a more square blades to help with speed and reverse. ?This propeller is amazing in reverse. Tuesday I will test this out plus a sample system for collecting sediment?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 14:45:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 15:01:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 19:01:05 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1l6NpuGL3QDVvG5BWMOzRlKa2CNWNluTJqbfmRX7jdE5INmD26dOaokfxLBTSOlivZBGmFyLi_gd8XPYMRVZeBxEHE0ReqXKiUogCpYEnNU=@protonmail.com> Hank, the way this is typically done in the field (based on my experience with CTD sampling), is that the sample containers are normally open, such as a plastic tube with e.g. o-ring sealed end caps which are connected through the tube with a length of bungee. The caps are pivoted to the open position and locked via some sort of trigger device, which when activated, simply releases the caps which snap into position on both ends, sealing the sample tube. With pumped water sampling, I am familiar with a carousel of tubes, like a revolver, in which only one tube is opened and in-line with the sampling system at any time. As a tube rotates out of position, it is face sealed, again with O-rings, by the encapsulating plates. The tubes are subsequently emptied one by one into sample bottles topside. Not sure if that's useful info. It has been decades since I have worked with any of that stuff. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On May 20, 2019, 13:45, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 15:47:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 12:47:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tanks Message-ID: <20190520124745.7F1DEC02@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:10:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 13:10:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <20190520131015.7F238D68@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:12:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Message-ID: <20190520131214.7F238C94@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:42:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:42:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <20190520131214.7F238C94@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190520131214.7F238C94@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <133768229.5100595.1558384923452@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Yes the squeezing from the hand opens it and after its filled and the hand lets go the lid closesHank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:12:28 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do you want the lid to close back up by itself ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:44:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 08:44:10 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55227F60-DD92-4F51-93A7-0636F4C05A21@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, you may be able to copy a pedal rubbish bin, but put the mechanism on the outside. Put a lever extension bar on the hinged lid with a rod running down to a gripping mechanism. Or simpler still, have the extension bar from the lid & a bracket on the bin just below it that you can squeeze the extension bar to, & use a spring or just the weight of the lit to close. Divers catch bags have a spring loaded mechanism so that when you squeeze the handles together the bag opens. You may be able to copy that! Alan > On 21/05/2019, at 6:45 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:51:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 13:51:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <170128488.7143.1558385500150@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:57:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 13:57:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Message-ID: <440202657.7172.1558385865451@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 16:58:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 08:58:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <55227F60-DD92-4F51-93A7-0636F4C05A21@yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <55227F60-DD92-4F51-93A7-0636F4C05A21@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, this milk jug is similar to my pedal bin modification. Imagine cutting the bottom section of the handle off & your gripper Squeezing the lid extension & handle together. What size do you want? Alan > On 21/05/2019, at 8:44 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank, > you may be able to copy a pedal rubbish bin, but put the mechanism > on the outside. Put a lever extension bar on the hinged lid with a rod running > down to a gripping mechanism. Or simpler still, have the extension bar from > the lid & a bracket on the bin just below it that you can squeeze the extension > bar to, & use a spring or just the weight of the lit to close. > Divers catch bags have a spring loaded mechanism so that when you > squeeze the handles together the bag opens. You may be able to copy that! > Alan > >> On 21/05/2019, at 6:45 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 47645 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:01:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:01:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <20190520140147.7F20C826@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:12:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 21:12:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <440202657.7172.1558385865451@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <440202657.7172.1558385865451@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <709082019.5114374.1558386739291@mail.yahoo.com> The tubes only need to hold 30 cc and the containers only have to hold the material from spilling out and possibly contaminating the sample next to it, and they will be full of water. ?Alan, I am looking for something ready made.Hank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:57:55 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4416208547 #yiv4416208547 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv4416208547 HI Hank, what is inside the tubes before they are opened?? ?(I'm worried that if they are empty - 1atm of air - they will be hard to open at depth)Who sealed do they need to be before and afterwards? (E.g. like jam jars with loose lids, or something hermetically sealed) Also, that size tubes are you looking to use? Cheers,? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: May 20, 2019 1:42 PM To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Brian,Yes the squeezing from the hand opens it and after its filled and the hand lets go the lid closesHank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:12:28 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do you want the lid to close back up by itself ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:15:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 21:15:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <709082019.5114374.1558386739291@mail.yahoo.com> References: <440202657.7172.1558385865451@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <709082019.5114374.1558386739291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1942767986.5173431.1558386948523@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,?That is the concept I think. ?I was also thinking of spring clamps with cups in the jaws. ?My hand grabs and squeezes the clamp opening the cups. ?The hand releases then the clamp closes and grabs material. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 3:12:39 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The tubes only need to hold 30 cc and the containers only have to hold the material from spilling out and possibly contaminating the sample next to it, and they will be full of water. ?Alan, I am looking for something ready made.Hank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:57:55 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv5745314194 -- DIV {margin:0px;}#yiv5745314194 HI Hank, what is inside the tubes before they are opened?? ?(I'm worried that if they are empty - 1atm of air - they will be hard to open at depth)Who sealed do they need to be before and afterwards? (E.g. like jam jars with loose lids, or something hermetically sealed) Also, that size tubes are you looking to use? Cheers,? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: May 20, 2019 1:42 PM To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Brian,Yes the squeezing from the hand opens it and after its filled and the hand lets go the lid closesHank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:12:28 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do you want the lid to close back up by itself ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:41:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:41:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1942767986.5173431.1558386948523@mail.yahoo.com> References: <440202657.7172.1558385865451@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <709082019.5114374.1558386739291@mail.yahoo.com> <1942767986.5173431.1558386948523@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5228B025-D433-42B7-935C-3DDB5FCFF1B9@yahoo.com> Hank, Could you not just scrape the jug along the bottom, then let the lid Close on the contents when you place them back in the rack? You have other problems like the containers floating away when you descend! Maybe metal containers with magnets on the base of their storage rack. Alan > On 21/05/2019, at 9:15 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > That is the concept I think. I was also thinking of spring clamps with cups in the jaws. My hand grabs and squeezes the clamp opening the cups. The hand releases then the clamp closes and grabs material. > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, 3:12:39 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The tubes only need to hold 30 cc and the containers only have to hold the material from spilling out and possibly contaminating the sample next to it, and they will be full of water. Alan, I am looking for something ready made. > Hank > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:57:55 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > HI Hank, > > what is inside the tubes before they are opened? (I'm worried that if they are empty - 1atm of air - they will be hard to open at depth) > Who sealed do they need to be before and afterwards? (E.g. like jam jars with loose lids, or something hermetically sealed) > > Also, that size tubes are you looking to use? > > Cheers, > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: May 20, 2019 1:42 PM > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea > > Brian, > Yes the squeezing from the hand opens it and after its filled and the hand lets go the lid closes > Hank > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:12:28 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Do you want the lid to close back up by itself ? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea > Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) > > Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. > Hank > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:42:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:42:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <1616102402.7353.1558388527270@wamui-dingo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:50:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:50:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <20190520145055.7F1D9DE2@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 17:57:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:57:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Message-ID: <20190520145703.7F1D9E6A@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 18:00:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 22:00:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <20190520145703.7F1D9E6A@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190520145703.7F1D9E6A@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <123358747.5203980.1558389608910@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?I have one of those, they are called sample suckers and use a thruster to suck water and samples into a clear container.Its only good for one sample per dive.Hank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 3:57:20 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ? I attended a talk about the Santa Barbara natural?oil seeps a few weeks ago up at UCSB,? they were using Alvin and collecting data similar to what you're talking about.? What they did was have an evacuated tube with a valve on it , the arm hand would turn the valve letting the sediment into the tube and then they would turn the valve back off.? ?Thinking about it it seems like once you got below 33 ft. there would be no vacuum,? so I'm not sure how they did that, unless a pump was involved, but I seem to remember it was just a vacuum. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 21:12:19 +0000 (UTC) The tubes only need to hold 30 cc and the containers only have to hold the material from spilling out and possibly contaminating the sample next to it, and they will be full of water. ?Alan, I am looking for something ready made.Hank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:57:55 PM MDT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: HI Hank, what is inside the tubes before they are opened?? ?(I'm worried that if they are empty - 1atm of air - they will be hard to open at depth)Who sealed do they need to be before and afterwards? (E.g. like jam jars with loose lids, or something hermetically sealed) Also, that size tubes are you looking to use? Cheers,? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: May 20, 2019 1:42 PM To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Brian,Yes the squeezing from the hand opens it and after its filled and the hand lets go the lid closesHank On Monday, May 20, 2019, 2:12:28 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Do you want the lid to close back up by itself ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:45:24 +0000 (UTC) Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 18:11:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:11:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Message-ID: <20190520151145.7F20C52B@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 19:37:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 23:37:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals In-Reply-To: <20190520145055.7F1D9DE2@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190520145055.7F1D9DE2@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1723605224.3499850.1558395432600@mail.yahoo.com> Pretty dry reading but...note that in salt water 2.4ghz is essentially useless.? https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/16/6/890/pdf Underwater Wireless Sensor Communications in the 2.4 GHz ISM Frequency Band | | | | | | | | | | | Underwater Wireless Sensor Communications in the 2.4 GHz ISM Frequency Band One of the main problems in underwater communications is the low data rate available due to the use of low frequ... | | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 20:38:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:38:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Wifi signals Message-ID: <20190520173847.7F20D25B@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 20 21:48:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 13:48:07 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Manipulator Gripper / Cutter Message-ID: Hank, have you got any detailed photos or drawings of your manipulator / rope cutter that featured on Facebook? Is it all 316? Or if anyone else has a good gripper design I'd appreciate it. I am wanting to build an electric manipulator with joints turning directly from the motor via gears ( as is common in robot arms ) rather than a more robust design with linear actuators or Pistons. Reason being mainly a wider angle of operation. I thought I'd start with the gripper first & work backward as then I will know what weight the next joint needs to support & power it appropriately. Thanks, Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 21 19:06:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 23:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: restore-dish-soap.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 21 19:58:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 23:58:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 22 20:06:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 00:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 22 20:50:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 00:50:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Pete,I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom.Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 22 21:00:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 01:00:33 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps some sort of syringe? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On May 22, 2019, 19:50, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Pete, > I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom. > Hank > > On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? > > On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jim, > What will keep the sample inside the container? > Hank > > On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 10:22:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:22:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea In-Reply-To: References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01d51172$e864ed10$b92ec730$@telus.net> Slurp gun. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 6:01 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] idea Perhaps some sort of syringe? Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On May 22, 2019, 19:50, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Pete, I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom. Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Jim, What will keep the sample inside the container? Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 19:23:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 16:23:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USS Batfish, (almost) ready to go Message-ID: <776057580.7166.1558653804134@wamui-albus.atl.sa.earthlink.net> https://www.thedrive.com/news/28167/midwest-flooding-re-floats-historic-wwii-submarine-for-the-first-time-in-decades From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 19:57:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 23:57:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma In-Reply-To: <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1156092662.5228738.1558655834110@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, From the latest pictures I've seen of gamma it looks like you're using the single inboard thruster aft. I've also noticed that you've welded the rudder. If that's true how do you steer Also are you using your new electric MTB vent valves? If so pictures would be appreciated. Pete On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:59:40 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete,I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom.Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 20:00:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 00:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USS Batfish, (almost) ready to go In-Reply-To: <776057580.7166.1558653804134@wamui-albus.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <776057580.7166.1558653804134@wamui-albus.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1938231253.627226.1558656053428@mail.yahoo.com> Good thing they kept the MBT valves shut. On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 11:25:25 PM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.thedrive.com/news/28167/midwest-flooding-re-floats-historic-wwii-submarine-for-the-first-time-in-decades _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 20:05:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 00:05:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma In-Reply-To: <1156092662.5228738.1558655834110@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> <1156092662.5228738.1558655834110@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <902981872.7028522.1558656320043@mail.yahoo.com> Pete,I put the original magnetic coupled drive back in the sub. ?The rudder is not welded, it is how I steer. ?I have added 4 solenoid vent valves but am only using two in the aft tanks. ?Hank On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 5:57:35 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, From the latest pictures I've seen of gamma it looks like you're using the single inboard thruster aft. I've also noticed that you've welded the rudder. If that's true how do you steer Also are you using your new electric MTB vent valves? If so pictures would be appreciated. Pete On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:59:40 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete,I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom.Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 21:06:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 01:06:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma In-Reply-To: <902981872.7028522.1558656320043@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> <1156092662.5228738.1558655834110@mail.yahoo.com> <902981872.7028522.1558656320043@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <166229555.5337360.1558659968546@mail.yahoo.com> How many HP is that aft motor?? Are you still using mechanical valves on the fore MTB's and why? Are you plumbed fore-and- aft? Pete On Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:07:18 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pete,I put the original magnetic coupled drive back in the sub. ?The rudder is not welded, it is how I steer. ?I have added 4 solenoid vent valves but am only using two in the aft tanks. ?Hank On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 5:57:35 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, From the latest pictures I've seen of gamma it looks like you're using the single inboard thruster aft. I've also noticed that you've welded the rudder. If that's true how do you steer Also are you using your new electric MTB vent valves? If so pictures would be appreciated. Pete On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:59:40 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete,I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom.Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 23 22:00:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 10:00:08 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] USS Batfish, (almost) ready to go In-Reply-To: <776057580.7166.1558653804134@wamui-albus.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <776057580.7166.1558653804134@wamui-albus.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Great picture! On 24/05/2019 7:23 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > https://www.thedrive.com/news/28167/midwest-flooding-re-floats-historic-wwii-submarine-for-the-first-time-in-decades > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 24 05:17:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 09:17:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Gamma In-Reply-To: <166229555.5337360.1558659968546@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1124685527.5059441.1558377924971@mail.yahoo.com> <1149998639.4102350.1558479986824@mail.yahoo.com> <786292976.5842514.1558483080375@mail.yahoo.com> <2073558624.115386.1558569961401@mail.yahoo.com> <1797702929.6446063.1558572651321@mail.yahoo.com> <1156092662.5228738.1558655834110@mail.yahoo.com> <902981872.7028522.1558656320043@mail.yahoo.com> <166229555.5337360.1558659968546@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <932095807.4485976.1558689430161@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Pete,At 24 V my motor is 2 hp and draws 50 amps. ?I still use the mechanical valves because the MBT's ?are long, so when the sub is on an angle they won't vent completely. ?With the electric valves at the opposite end of the tanks I can vent them easily.Hank On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 7:06:30 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How many HP is that aft motor?? Are you still using mechanical valves on the fore MTB's and why? Are you plumbed fore-and- aft? Pete On Friday, May 24, 2019, 12:07:18 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pete,I put the original magnetic coupled drive back in the sub. ?The rudder is not welded, it is how I steer. ?I have added 4 solenoid vent valves but am only using two in the aft tanks. ?Hank On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 5:57:35 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, From the latest pictures I've seen of gamma it looks like you're using the single inboard thruster aft. I've also noticed that you've welded the rudder. If that's true how do you steer Also are you using your new electric MTB vent valves? If so pictures would be appreciated. Pete On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:59:40 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete,I am taking 30 cc sediment sample from the top 5 cm layer of lake bottom.Hank On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:06:55 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You could push the bottles closed before you surface. Maybe poke a pin hole for OP. What are you sampling? On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 12:00:02 AM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jim,What will keep the sample inside the container?Hank On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 5:06:50 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about empty dish soap containers. Fill them at the surface with water and at sample depth squeeze them to partially empty and create a vacuum to suck up your sample. ? On Monday, May 20, 2019, 6:47:36 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Okay fellow submarine nerds, I need an idea. ?I need to find containers for taking samples off the bottom that when they are squeezed they open a lid. ?Ideally I would grab each container from a rack and when I grab it the lid opens from the force of grabbing it.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 09:34:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 13:34:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment References: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> Any reason not to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 14:30:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 11:30:36 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Message-ID: <550133407.3219.1558809036828@wamui-gaston.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 14:36:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 11:36:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Message-ID: <1281302019.3229.1558809412432@wamui-gaston.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 16:27:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 08:27:41 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> References: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53C00D63-5162-4C27-AC0E-AC4859C1ECB4@yahoo.com> Hi Jon, I think it would make a potential bomb! There would be a fare amount of air space between the top of the battery & the battery box cover needed to allow for the height of the battery terminals. Hydrogen could build up there & if one of the multitude of terminal connectors came loose & sparked, the combination of air & hydrogen could be explosive. A few people in the group are oil compensating batteries ( Hank, Scott) with external bladders & a valve on top for releasing any pressure build up from off gassing ( mainly during charging). Alan > On 26/05/2019, at 1:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Any reason not to? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 16:31:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 08:31:22 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> References: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2D1AA2DE-B7C7-4D0B-B579-EC0474AF4E72@yahoo.com> Jon, I'm emailing too early in the morning. You would have the same explosive potential in a normal battery pod. Perhaps oil compensating is the safest method. Alan > On 26/05/2019, at 1:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Any reason not to? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 16:59:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 20:59:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <2D1AA2DE-B7C7-4D0B-B579-EC0474AF4E72@yahoo.com> References: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> <2D1AA2DE-B7C7-4D0B-B579-EC0474AF4E72@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1423583101.7715597.1558817951227@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,The large volume of air it would take could be reason enough to not air compensate. ?I would say if there was concern about a battery pod not standing up then like Alan says, oil fill. ?I love oil filling, it is very easy and if there is a drain plug then its not so messy.Hank On Saturday, May 25, 2019, 2:31:46 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,I'm emailing too early in the morning. You would have the same explosivepotential in a normal battery pod. Perhaps oil compensating is the safestmethod.Alan On 26/05/2019, at 1:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Any reason not to? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 17:36:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 14:36:12 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Message-ID: <1681354796.3904.1558820172486@wamui-gaston.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat May 25 22:16:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 19:16:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Message-ID: <20190525191619.EAD728E7@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 26 07:34:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 11:34:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <20190525191619.EAD728E7@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190525191619.EAD728E7@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1553004883.1476945.1558870488294@mail.yahoo.com> This was my understanding also, that AGMs don't vent under use.? Charging, yes, but the box could be opened or vented during charging.? I wouldn't be using regular wet-cell in this application. Hank, if the enclosure is designed to have limited tolerance to the dimensions of the batteries the air volume would be within reason I think.? I suspect .25 cu ft or less. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment If you?could use AGM batteries there would not be the explosion issue. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 26 09:46:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 01:46:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <1553004883.1476945.1558870488294@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190525191619.EAD728E7@m0117458.ppops.net> <1553004883.1476945.1558870488294@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DB1D008-42AD-4346-AED2-F8B1FE87D54E@yahoo.com> AGMs are hard to compensate because they need 1-6psi internal pressure to re-absorb their gasses. I had them in my ambient & used two one way 3psi cracking pressure valves ( one letting air in, one letting pressure out) to maintain at least 3psi inside their housing. I also used pure silicone oil to limit the volume of air needed. Cheap Scented silicone oil caused them to off gas. BTW they lasted for years. Alan > On 26/05/2019, at 11:34 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This was my understanding also, that AGMs don't vent under use. Charging, yes, but the box could be opened or vented during charging. I wouldn't be using regular wet-cell in this application. > > Hank, if the enclosure is designed to have limited tolerance to the dimensions of the batteries the air volume would be within reason I think. I suspect .25 cu ft or less. > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 10:18 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment > > If you could use AGM batteries there would not be the explosion issue. > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 26 10:00:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 07:00:27 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Message-ID: <20190526070027.EADA3F4E@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun May 26 10:57:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 07:57:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <20190526070027.EADA3F4E@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190526070027.EADA3F4E@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2A4BB59A-3EB7-4FD4-A040-A7E02F501406@yahoo.ca> Jon. Depending on depth rating that volume could be a lot. To me it feels safer to oil fill. An air compensated pod would be dangerous if it lost its air. I guess you could increase the size of your drop weight to compensate for flooded pods. I wonder what the effect on buoyancy would be with added air volume weight. I guess the air is leaving one tank to go in another so might balance out Hank Sent from my iPhone > On May 26, 2019, at 7:00 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Is is possible to get a very sensitive hydrogen sensor? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment > Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 01:46:33 +1200 > > AGMs are hard to compensate because they need 1-6psi internal > pressure to re-absorb their gasses. > I had them in my ambient & used two one way 3psi cracking pressure > valves ( one letting air in, one letting pressure out) to maintain at least > 3psi inside their housing. > I also used pure silicone oil to limit the volume of air needed. Cheap > Scented silicone oil caused them to off gas. BTW they lasted for years. > Alan > > > On 26/05/2019, at 11:34 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This was my understanding also, that AGMs don't vent under use. Charging, yes, but the box could be opened or vented during charging. I wouldn't be using regular wet-cell in this application. > > Hank, if the enclosure is designed to have limited tolerance to the dimensions of the batteries the air volume would be within reason I think. I suspect .25 cu ft or less. > > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 10:18 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment > > If you could use AGM batteries there would not be the explosion issue. > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 27 18:20:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 10:20:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer Message-ID: Hi, does anyone know of a reasonably priced potentiometer that is IP68 ( submersible in water to 1.5 metres for 1/2 an hour) or better or of a housing or other product I could adapt to make a potentiometer waterproof. 25-100k ohm would work for me, but I would be interested in anything. I bought an underwater rotary switch from blue robotics that is nearly but not quite able to be adapted for the potentiometer. Thanks, Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 27 19:01:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 16:01:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer Message-ID: <2050512731.3020.1558998066035@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mouser has some sealed potentiometers with an IP68 rating, <$10 per single unit, 50Kohm and 100Kohm options (and others): https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Potentiometers-Trimmers-Rheostats/Potentiometers/_/N-9q0yp?P=1yzscmn At least some are quoted as single unit price, but others may require larger orders?.. What are you using it for? Cheers! Ian. -----Original Message----- >From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >Sent: May 27, 2019 3:20 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer > >Hi, >does anyone know of a reasonably priced potentiometer that is >IP68 ( submersible in water to 1.5 metres for 1/2 an hour) or better >or of a housing or other product I could adapt to make a potentiometer >waterproof. 25-100k ohm would work for me, but I would be interested in >anything. >I bought an underwater rotary switch from blue robotics that is nearly >but not quite able to be adapted for the potentiometer. >Thanks, Alan >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 27 19:45:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 11:45:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer In-Reply-To: <2050512731.3020.1558998066035@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2050512731.3020.1558998066035@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41F09590-E7D1-458A-88D6-DE0F513A224F@yahoo.com> Hi Ian, they look good for my primary usage. They have the 50k linear single gang that I was after. Using them for a couple of purposes. First is to dim my submarine lights which I am setting up on a sea biscuit ( floaty thing normally towed behind boats) to explore a sea cave with a 200 meter water entrance. Second is to use them for the same purpose but on my submarine. Third is for speed control on a home made DPV to test out my submarine thruster's. This last option will require something a bit more substantial. Learning to respect Saltwater, it is very unforgiving & I destroyed about $175- worth of electronics on my last cave trip! Alan > On 28/05/2019, at 11:01 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Mouser has some sealed potentiometers with an IP68 rating, <$10 per single unit, 50Kohm and 100Kohm options (and others): > https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Potentiometers-Trimmers-Rheostats/Potentiometers/_/N-9q0yp?P=1yzscmn > > At least some are quoted as single unit price, but others may require larger orders?.. > > What are you using it for? > > Cheers! > Ian. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: May 27, 2019 3:20 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer >> >> Hi, >> does anyone know of a reasonably priced potentiometer that is >> IP68 ( submersible in water to 1.5 metres for 1/2 an hour) or better >> or of a housing or other product I could adapt to make a potentiometer >> waterproof. 25-100k ohm would work for me, but I would be interested in >> anything. >> I bought an underwater rotary switch from blue robotics that is nearly >> but not quite able to be adapted for the potentiometer. >> Thanks, Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon May 27 20:44:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:44:35 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer In-Reply-To: <41F09590-E7D1-458A-88D6-DE0F513A224F@yahoo.com> References: <2050512731.3020.1558998066035@wamui-esmeralda.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <41F09590-E7D1-458A-88D6-DE0F513A224F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9159E03E-0592-4202-A4A5-46108E0EDC7D@yahoo.com> Thanks Ian, I ordered 3 of them. They look a great option for submarine or boat Electronics; IP68 & cheap. May coat them in resin if they have corrosion potential. Alan > On 28/05/2019, at 11:45 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Ian, > they look good for my primary usage. They have the 50k linear single gang > that I was after. > Using them for a couple of purposes. First is to dim my submarine lights > which I am setting up on a sea biscuit ( floaty thing normally towed behind boats) > to explore a sea cave with a 200 meter water entrance. Second is to use them > for the same purpose but on my submarine. Third is for speed control on a home > made DPV to test out my submarine thruster's. This last option will require > something a bit more substantial. > Learning to respect Saltwater, it is very unforgiving & I destroyed about $175- > worth of electronics on my last cave trip! > Alan > >> On 28/05/2019, at 11:01 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Mouser has some sealed potentiometers with an IP68 rating, <$10 per single unit, 50Kohm and 100Kohm options (and others): >> https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Potentiometers-Trimmers-Rheostats/Potentiometers/_/N-9q0yp?P=1yzscmn >> >> At least some are quoted as single unit price, but others may require larger orders?.. >> >> What are you using it for? >> >> Cheers! >> Ian. >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> Sent: May 27, 2019 3:20 PM >>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Potentiometer >>> >>> Hi, >>> does anyone know of a reasonably priced potentiometer that is >>> IP68 ( submersible in water to 1.5 metres for 1/2 an hour) or better >>> or of a housing or other product I could adapt to make a potentiometer >>> waterproof. 25-100k ohm would work for me, but I would be interested in >>> anything. >>> I bought an underwater rotary switch from blue robotics that is nearly >>> but not quite able to be adapted for the potentiometer. >>> Thanks, Alan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 08:21:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:21:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <2A4BB59A-3EB7-4FD4-A040-A7E02F501406@yahoo.ca> References: <20190526070027.EADA3F4E@m0117568.ppops.net> <2A4BB59A-3EB7-4FD4-A040-A7E02F501406@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1791727771.6863234.1559046108837@mail.yahoo.com> I will submit to conventional wisdom and find another solution, likely the cabin, however I do question whether the volume of outgas from AGM's during use (not charging) is really such a threat.? I'm sure this is a manufacturer question and if I can find our contacts at US Battery they would be a good source for this kind of information. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment Jon. Depending on depth rating that volume could be a lot. ? To me it feels safer to oil fill. An air compensated pod would be dangerous if it lost its air. I guess you could increase the size of your drop weight to compensate for flooded pods. ? I wonder what the effect on buoyancy would be with added air volume weight. I guess the air is leaving one tank to go in another so might balance outHank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 08:44:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:44:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air comp battery compartment In-Reply-To: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> References: <503531423.5923353.1558791256498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <503531423.5923353.1558791256498@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have no specific experience with this, but my first thought is to wonder whether dissolved oxygen would present a problem, if you are air compensating in direct contact with the battery electrolyte? Nitrogen doesn't dissolve readily, but oxygen does, and particularly at low temperatures and high pressures. When that gas subsequently evolves out of solution when the pressure is reduced, will it nucleate on the battery electrodes / plates and consequently reduce efficiency / capacity? If I were going to gas compensate, I would use nitrogen or argon as opposed to air. At least with oil, the oil should remain imiscible with an acidic aqueous solution electrolyte. Much less complicated too, being effectively incompressible. The required compensation volume is minimal and can be provided with a simple membrane or local compensator. With gas, you need a high pressure supply and a pressure reducing regulator, which must be self relieving, or you need an additional vent. The only thing you really avoid going with gas is the mess and the risk of environmental contamination. Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On May 25, 2019, 07:34, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Any reason not to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 16:48:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:48:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190528134805.EAD8FC46@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 17:40:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank In-Reply-To: <20190528134805.EAD8FC46@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190528134805.EAD8FC46@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1977106655.8856622.1559079658429@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,The fittings are no problem, I just went to the hydraulic shop and got new ones.Hank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:48:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My CNG tank finally got here !? ?Very impressive tank, looks like there are standard fittings on it , so shouldn't be much trouble putting the appropriate valves on.?? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 17:48:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 14:48:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190528144803.EAD974B2@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 18:11:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 22:11:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank In-Reply-To: <20190528144803.EAD974B2@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190528144803.EAD974B2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1012416964.8845312.1559081508660@mail.yahoo.com> Not on mine, all right hand threadHank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 3:48:21 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a fill fitting on this tank that seems like it is reverse thread --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Brian,The fittings are no problem, I just went to the hydraulic shop and got new ones.Hank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:48:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My CNG tank finally got here !? ?Very impressive tank, looks like there are standard fittings on it , so shouldn't be much trouble putting the appropriate valves on.?? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 18:29:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 10:29:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank In-Reply-To: <20190528144803.EAD974B2@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190528144803.EAD974B2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, how are you going to use it. Will it be in the hull or outside. What is the planned system for filling & emptying? Alan > On 29/05/2019, at 9:48 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a fill fitting on this tank that seems like it is reverse thread > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank > Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > The fittings are no problem, I just went to the hydraulic shop and got new ones. > Hank > > On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:48:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > My CNG tank finally got here ! Very impressive tank, looks like there are standard fittings on it , so shouldn't be much trouble putting the appropriate valves on. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 19:21:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 16:21:45 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190528162145.EAD83680@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 19:51:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 16:51:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190528165135.EAD83724@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 20:14:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 00:14:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank In-Reply-To: <20190528165135.EAD83724@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190528165135.EAD83724@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1297185875.8899561.1559088882264@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?I have no idea what pressure it can take with no air in it. ?It should be a reasonable amount given the thickness of the shell. ?My tanks have a strait thread ?with an o-ring. ?It makes no sense to have a taper thread with an o-ring. ?The taper thread (pipe thread) seals on its own. ?I have steel CNG tanks with a pipe thread valve but I am sure the type 4 carbon??fibre tanks are not pipe threadHank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 5:51:48 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank ,? ?Any idea what pressure those tanks would take with no internal pressure ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 22:11:48 +0000 (UTC) Not on mine, all right hand threadHank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 3:48:21 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a fill fitting on this tank that seems like it is reverse thread --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Brian,The fittings are no problem, I just went to the hydraulic shop and got new ones.Hank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:48:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My CNG tank finally got here !? ?Very impressive tank, looks like there are standard fittings on it , so shouldn't be much trouble putting the appropriate valves on.?? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 20:49:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 17:49:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190528174958.EADAA8C7@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue May 28 21:00:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 01:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank In-Reply-To: <20190528174958.EADAA8C7@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20190528174958.EADAA8C7@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1688816449.408156.1559091609940@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Mine are made by Quantum I think, ?made in California. ?They are 138 lbs each empty.Hank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 6:50:11 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: This tank it seems was shipped with a fair amount of gas in it !? I've been draining it for a while now.? This tank has an electrical valve on it.? Also has a pressure relief valve .? Once I'm done draining it? ( by unscrewing slightly the PR valve) I'm going to take off the pressure relief valve and see if I can match up the threads at a hydraulic place.? I tried a 3/8" thread but it would not thread.? We have a type 3 manufacturer?very close by and he gave me some info on the various threads that are used.?? Hank , who is the manufacturer of your tank??? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 00:14:42 +0000 (UTC) Brian,?I have no idea what pressure it can take with no air in it. ?It should be a reasonable amount given the thickness of the shell. ?My tanks have a strait thread ?with an o-ring. ?It makes no sense to have a taper thread with an o-ring. ?The taper thread (pipe thread) seals on its own. ?I have steel CNG tanks with a pipe thread valve but I am sure the type 4 carbon??fibre tanks are not pipe threadHank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 5:51:48 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank ,? ?Any idea what pressure those tanks would take with no internal pressure ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 22:11:48 +0000 (UTC) Not on mine, all right hand threadHank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 3:48:21 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a fill fitting on this tank that seems like it is reverse thread --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Brian,The fittings are no problem, I just went to the hydraulic shop and got new ones.Hank On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 2:48:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My CNG tank finally got here !? ?Very impressive tank, looks like there are standard fittings on it , so shouldn't be much trouble putting the appropriate valves on.?? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed May 29 12:10:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG tank Message-ID: <20190529091008.EAD8C8FA@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 16:14:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 20:14:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing?SodaSorb HP.? Amron guys are recommending?a replacement product?Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb ? ? .??Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818?at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. | | | | $107.15 | | | | | | | Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 | | | Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather.? The abstract from the report is given below.?http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents withinthe MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy ExperimentalDiving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb.However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of thewide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHgCO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V021 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for theMK 15 and can be reused." For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to?? My inclination is to go with the?Draeger Dive Sorb Pro.? Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? I wish I would have know this one week ago.? I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough.? Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 16:50:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:50:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> Cliff, 12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get some peace & quiet. I presume you did this in several separate dives. How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable? Any worse than a seat on an airplane? Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective? Alan > On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing SodaSorb HP. Amron guys are recommending a replacement product Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb > . Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. > > $107.15 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > > Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather. The abstract from the report is given below. http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 > > "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents within > the MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy Experimental > Diving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb. > However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of the > wide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHg > CO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V02 > 1 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for the > MK 15 and can be reused." > > For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to? My inclination is to go with the Draeger Dive Sorb Pro. Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? > > I wish I would have know this one week ago. I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough. > > Cliff > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 17:20:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:20:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read.? This was one single dive.? Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM.? Packed a lunch for the day.? Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent.? Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last.? At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm.? Comfort level was not to bad.? The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm.? Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive.? Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender)? unit twice during the dive.? As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma!? Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs.? From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control.?? Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get somepeace & quiet.?I presume you did this in several separate dives.How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable?Any worse than a seat on an airplane?Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective?Alan On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing?SodaSorb HP.? Amron guys are recommending?a replacement product?Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb ? ? .??Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818?at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. | | | | $107.15 | | | | | | | Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 | | | Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather.? The abstract from the report is given below.?http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents withinthe MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy ExperimentalDiving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb.However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of thewide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHgCO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V021 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for theMK 15 and can be reused." For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to?? My inclination is to go with the?Draeger Dive Sorb Pro.? Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? I wish I would have know this one week ago.? I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough.? Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 17:36:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 09:36:38 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff, you should get some sort of Psubs award for that! I am sure my back would be killing me at half that time. That's great results on the O2 front. Alan > On 31/05/2019, at 9:20 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read. This was one single dive. Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM. Packed a lunch for the day. Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent. Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last. At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm. Comfort level was not to bad. The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm. Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive. Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender) unit twice during the dive. As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma! Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs. From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control. > > Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. > > Best > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > 12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get some > peace & quiet. > I presume you did this in several separate dives. > How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable? > Any worse than a seat on an airplane? > Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective? > Alan > > >> On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing SodaSorb HP. Amron guys are recommending a replacement product Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb >> . Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. >> >> $107.15 >> Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 >> Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 >> >> Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather. The abstract from the report is given below. http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 >> >> "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents within >> the MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy Experimental >> Diving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb. >> However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of the >> wide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHg >> CO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V02 >> 1 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for the >> MK 15 and can be reused." >> >> For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to? My inclination is to go with the Draeger Dive Sorb Pro. Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? >> >> I wish I would have know this one week ago. I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough. >> >> Cliff >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 18:07:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:07:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1735557138.9998748.1559254076089@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. ?We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. ?Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing.Hank On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read.? This was one single dive.? Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM.? Packed a lunch for the day.? Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent.? Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last.? At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm.? Comfort level was not to bad.? The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm.? Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive.? Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender)? unit twice during the dive.? As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma!? Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs.? From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control.?? Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get somepeace & quiet.?I presume you did this in several separate dives.How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable?Any worse than a seat on an airplane?Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective?Alan On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing?SodaSorb HP.? Amron guys are recommending?a replacement product?Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb ? ? .??Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818?at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. | | | | $107.15 | | | | | | | Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 | | | Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather.? The abstract from the report is given below.?http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents withinthe MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy ExperimentalDiving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb.However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of thewide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHgCO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V021 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for theMK 15 and can be reused." For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to?? My inclination is to go with the?Draeger Dive Sorb Pro.? Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? I wish I would have know this one week ago.? I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough.? Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 18:33:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:33:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <1735557138.9998748.1559254076089@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> <1735557138.9998748.1559254076089@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <274467183.10056076.1559255580926@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I am not going to be able to redo the Life Support tent until after the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition because of work.? I have enough SodaSorb I think for the Expedition.? I may go ahead and get the DiveSorb Pro just to have a backup.? One of the questions I have is about the impact of the mesh size.? The SodaSorb HP with it's 4-8 mesh is larger than the DiveSorb.? I wonder if the DiveSorb is going to pass through the holes in my scrubber container. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 5:09:13 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. ?We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. ?Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing.Hank On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read.? This was one single dive.? Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM.? Packed a lunch for the day.? Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent.? Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last.? At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm.? Comfort level was not to bad.? The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm.? Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive.? Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender)? unit twice during the dive.? As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma!? Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs.? From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control.?? Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get somepeace & quiet.?I presume you did this in several separate dives.How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable?Any worse than a seat on an airplane?Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective?Alan On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing?SodaSorb HP.? Amron guys are recommending?a replacement product?Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb ? ? .??Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818?at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. | | | | $107.15 | | | | | | | Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 | | | Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather.? The abstract from the report is given below.?http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents withinthe MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy ExperimentalDiving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb.However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of thewide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHgCO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V021 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for theMK 15 and can be reused." For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to?? My inclination is to go with the?Draeger Dive Sorb Pro.? Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? I wish I would have know this one week ago.? I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough.? Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu May 30 18:42:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:42:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <274467183.10056076.1559255580926@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1412229630.1518363.1527355433060@mail.yahoo.com> <982962242.5751810.1527368943729@mail.yahoo.com> <1960001898.1559892.1527370783947@mail.yahoo.com> <1211458714.7340816.1559247281975@mail.yahoo.com> <61FA1DE4-41C9-4A18-93B3-FD803228136D@yahoo.com> <415790285.1483545.1559251229524@mail.yahoo.com> <1735557138.9998748.1559254076089@mail.yahoo.com> <274467183.10056076.1559255580926@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69471969.10071537.1559256157425@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,I lined my scrubber with screen from a window to prevent particle spill messing up the floor of the sub. ?the screen works great and my scrubber runs at 1200 to 1300 PPM with just me and 2500 to 2600 with a passenger.Hank On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 4:33:22 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, I am not going to be able to redo the Life Support tent until after the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition because of work.? I have enough SodaSorb I think for the Expedition.? I may go ahead and get the DiveSorb Pro just to have a backup.? One of the questions I have is about the impact of the mesh size.? The SodaSorb HP with it's 4-8 mesh is larger than the DiveSorb.? I wonder if the DiveSorb is going to pass through the holes in my scrubber container. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 5:09:13 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. ?We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. ?Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing.Hank On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read.? This was one single dive.? Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM.? Packed a lunch for the day.? Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent.? Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last.? At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm.? Comfort level was not to bad.? The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm.? Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive.? Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender)? unit twice during the dive.? As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma!? Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs.? From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control.?? Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. Best Cliff On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get somepeace & quiet.?I presume you did this in several separate dives.How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable?Any worse than a seat on an airplane?Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective?Alan On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing?SodaSorb HP.? Amron guys are recommending?a replacement product?Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb ? ? .??Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818?at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. | | | | $107.15 | | | | | | | Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 | | | Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather.? The abstract from the report is given below.?http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents withinthe MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy ExperimentalDiving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb.However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of thewide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHgCO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V021 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for theMK 15 and can be reused." For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to?? My inclination is to go with the?Draeger Dive Sorb Pro.? Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? I wish I would have know this one week ago.? I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough.? Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 11:50:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:50:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Message-ID: <20190531085047.5814CED@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 14:36:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 13:36:56 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <20190531085047.5814CED@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190531085047.5814CED@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <0CF43A12-754B-4F0F-92DF-EA506D4DFEA6@gmail.com> Yes. For unconscious pilot on bottom: 1) hands free life support for 12 hours. 2) Dive team locates boat using pinger 3) Dive team attaches line with float to forward lifting lug 4) divers descend on line with 80 SCF scuba tank with whip 5) divers manually inflate forward and aft MBTs until boat is positive 6) when boat surfaces, tender attaches line on boat and tows to beach 7) at beach, tender crew uses screwdriver to wedge between upper and lower hatch faces. This will break latches and enable the hatch to be opened 8) crew recovers pilot and administers appropriate first aid. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On May 31, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Did you have an escape plan with the outside world in case you conked out inside your sub? Can the out side world get your hatch off? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:33:00 +0000 (UTC) > > Hank, I am not going to be able to redo the Life Support tent until after the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition because of work. I have enough SodaSorb I think for the Expedition. I may go ahead and get the DiveSorb Pro just to have a backup. One of the questions I have is about the impact of the mesh size. The SodaSorb HP with it's 4-8 mesh is larger than the DiveSorb. I wonder if the DiveSorb is going to pass through the holes in my scrubber container. > > Best Cliff > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 5:09:13 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing. > Hank > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read. This was one single dive. Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM. Packed a lunch for the day. Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent. Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last. At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm. Comfort level was not to bad. The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm. Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive. Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender) unit twice during the dive. As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma! Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs. From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control. > > Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. > > Best > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > 12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get some > peace & quiet. > I presume you did this in several separate dives. > How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable? > Any worse than a seat on an airplane? > Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective? > Alan > > > On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing SodaSorb HP. Amron guys are recommending a replacement product Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb > . Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. > > $107.15 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > > Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather. The abstract from the report is given below. http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 > > "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents within > the MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy Experimental > Diving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb. > However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of the > wide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHg > CO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V02 > 1 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for the > MK 15 and can be reused." > > For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to? My inclination is to go with the Draeger Dive Sorb Pro. Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? > > I wish I would have know this one week ago. I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough. > > Cliff > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 17:02:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:02:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Message-ID: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 17:14:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 09:14:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, you are right to enquire! It could reflect badly on the Psub community in general if there were media headlines " Professor of engineering found dead in homemade submarine in backyard swimming pool." Alan > On 1/06/2019, at 9:02 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's good ! But what about when you did your actual test ?? Just a few days ago. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 13:36:56 -0500 > > Yes. For unconscious pilot on bottom: > 1) hands free life support for 12 hours. > 2) Dive team locates boat using pinger > 3) Dive team attaches line with float to forward lifting lug > 4) divers descend on line with 80 SCF scuba tank with whip > 5) divers manually inflate forward and aft MBTs until boat is positive > 6) when boat surfaces, tender attaches line on boat and tows to beach > 7) at beach, tender crew uses screwdriver to wedge between upper and lower hatch faces. This will break latches and enable the hatch to be opened > 8) crew recovers pilot and administers appropriate first aid. > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 31, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Did you have an escape plan with the outside world in case you conked out inside your sub? Can the out side world get your hatch off? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:33:00 +0000 (UTC) > > Hank, I am not going to be able to redo the Life Support tent until after the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition because of work. I have enough SodaSorb I think for the Expedition. I may go ahead and get the DiveSorb Pro just to have a backup. One of the questions I have is about the impact of the mesh size. The SodaSorb HP with it's 4-8 mesh is larger than the DiveSorb. I wonder if the DiveSorb is going to pass through the holes in my scrubber container. > > Best Cliff > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 5:09:13 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing. > Hank > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read. This was one single dive. Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM. Packed a lunch for the day. Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent. Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last. At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm. Comfort level was not to bad. The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm. Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive. Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender) unit twice during the dive. As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma! Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs. From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control. > > Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. > > Best > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > 12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get some > peace & quiet. > I presume you did this in several separate dives. > How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable? > Any worse than a seat on an airplane? > Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective? > Alan > > > On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing SodaSorb HP. Amron guys are recommending a replacement product Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb > . Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. > > $107.15 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > > Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather. The abstract from the report is given below. http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 > > "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents within > the MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy Experimental > Diving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb. > However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of the > wide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHg > CO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V02 > 1 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for the > MK 15 and can be reused." > > For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to? My inclination is to go with the Draeger Dive Sorb Pro. Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? > > I wish I would have know this one week ago. I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough. > > Cliff > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 18:08:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 17:08:40 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <415F2C8C-822C-4B03-B0D6-7F1AD445054D@gmail.com> Would jump to step 4. My son would poke the whip into each MBT flood port and manually blow MBTs. Then follow remaining steps Sent from my iPhone > On May 31, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's good ! But what about when you did your actual test ?? Just a few days ago. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 13:36:56 -0500 > > Yes. For unconscious pilot on bottom: > 1) hands free life support for 12 hours. > 2) Dive team locates boat using pinger > 3) Dive team attaches line with float to forward lifting lug > 4) divers descend on line with 80 SCF scuba tank with whip > 5) divers manually inflate forward and aft MBTs until boat is positive > 6) when boat surfaces, tender attaches line on boat and tows to beach > 7) at beach, tender crew uses screwdriver to wedge between upper and lower hatch faces. This will break latches and enable the hatch to be opened > 8) crew recovers pilot and administers appropriate first aid. > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 31, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Did you have an escape plan with the outside world in case you conked out inside your sub? Can the out side world get your hatch off? > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance > Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:33:00 +0000 (UTC) > > Hank, I am not going to be able to redo the Life Support tent until after the 2019 Flathead Lake Expedition because of work. I have enough SodaSorb I think for the Expedition. I may go ahead and get the DiveSorb Pro just to have a backup. One of the questions I have is about the impact of the mesh size. The SodaSorb HP with it's 4-8 mesh is larger than the DiveSorb. I wonder if the DiveSorb is going to pass through the holes in my scrubber container. > > Best Cliff > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 5:09:13 PM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > I need a pail of absorbent also but I will hold off until you test it. We have pretty identical scrubbers so the performance should be the same. Are you ordering a small quantity first for testing. > Hank > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:20:54 PM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alan, yes the dive was quite peaceful and I got two books read. This was one single dive. Closed the hatch and submerged at 4:30 AM and surfaced and popped the hatch at 5 PM. Packed a lunch for the day. Without touching a single setting or switch, my life support kept the O2 mole percent at a rock solid 21% plus or minus a tenth of a percent. Goal was to see how long the initial load in the scrubber would last. At 12.5 hours the SodaSorbHP had breakthrough and reached 5000 ppm. Comfort level was not to bad. The pool temperature varied from 79F at 4:30 am in morning to 81F at 5:30 pm. Relative Humidly was high at 80-82 percent throughout the dive. Had to use my HERE (Human Endurance Range Extender) unit twice during the dive. As there is not much room in my cabin, I managed to piss all over my myself on the second attempt which made for a nice aroma! Dive kind of felt like making a non stop flight from Texas to New Zealand minus the first class meals and being able to walk around to stretch my legs. From an ergonomics perspective, it would have been nice to have air conditioning not so much for temperature for this dive but for humidity control. > > Now that I can't buy SodaSorb HP, I am going to have to repeat the test to check the endurance of the Darager DiveSorb Pro. > > Best > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, May 30, 2019, 3:51:20 PM CDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Cliff, > 12.5hrs in the pool in your submarine! That's one way to get some > peace & quiet. > I presume you did this in several separate dives. > How long could you stay in before it was getting uncomfortable? > Any worse than a seat on an airplane? > Would you design it any different from an ergonomics perspective? > Alan > > > On 31/05/2019, at 8:14 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Today, I was getting ready to reorder SodaSorb HP for the August 5-9 Flathead Lake Expedition and found from my supplier, Amron International, that W.R. Grace and Co. was bought out by another company and the new company has stopped manufacturing SodaSorb HP. Amron guys are recommending a replacement product Draeger 6737818 DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb > . Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 at a similar price, $107/37 lbs. > > $107.15 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > Draeger DiveSorb? Pro Carbon Dioxide Absorbents 16.8 kg - 37 lb 6737818 > > Found a US Navy report written in 1987 were they compared different CO2 absorbents in their MK 15 re-breather. The abstract from the report is given below. http://dspace.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/4853/NEDU_1987_11.pdf?sequence=1 > > "A comparative study of Draegersorb, LimePak and HP Sodasorb carbon dioxide absorbents within > the MK 15 Mod 0 Underwater Breathing Apparatus (MK 15) was performed at the Navy Experimental > Diving U n i t . Draegersorb and LimePak appeared t o be marginally more e f f e c t i v e than HP Sodasorb. > However, t h e i r usefulness to extend the MK 15 canister duration may be l i m i t e d because of the > wide v a r i a b i l i t y of time to reach the a r b i t r a r i l y determined canister breakthrough of 3.8 mHg > CO 0.5% SEV) though the oxygen consumption rates were similar, V02 rates were similar, V02 > 1 mi. The polypropylene moisture absorbent pads are a suitable replacement pad for the > MK 15 and can be reused." > > For those of you that were using SodaSorb HP, what are switching to? My inclination is to go with the Draeger Dive Sorb Pro. Does anyone know of a supplier that still has an inventory of SodaSorbHP 4-8 mesh? > > I wish I would have know this one week ago. I just completed a 12.5 hour pool dive to determine how long my initial scrubber load of 3.5 lbs of SodaSorb HP would last before breakthrough. > > Cliff > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri May 31 18:24:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 22:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance In-Reply-To: References: <20190531140209.580929A@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <460189477.9023204.1559341440622@mail.yahoo.com> Wouldn't we just deny knowing him?? Cliff who?? From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, May 31, 2019 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] scrubber performance Brian,you are right to enquire!It could reflect badly on the Psub community in general if there were mediaheadlines " Professor of engineering found dead in homemade submarine inbackyard swimming pool."Alan? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: