From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 16:41:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 13:41:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 17:37:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <360604338.116375.1559597859074@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. ?I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. ?In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. ?KISS they work perfectly for years now.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors??? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 17:40:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:40:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <122767634.106292.1559598017711@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,My arm uses an air bag from a car suspension. ?The arm was working at 300 feet a couple days and it worked perfect. ?You could do that for your big motors. ?Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors??? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 17:54:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 09:54:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190603134142.581A829@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <8605D64F-8CFC-46AF-9D30-104C110682E1@yahoo.com> Brian, I have a home made oil compensator on my oil filled motor. I have only run this set up on a boat so far. Basically it's a top hat diaphragm made of silicon & clamped in an Aluminium housing that has fill ports in it. I am going to use the Parker regulator that Cliff is using successfully for his air compensation, on my oil compensated sub thrusters. I will be able to dial in a 5psi over pressure ( which seems to be industry standard) & pressurise the oil with the air. Any back pressure on surfacing or expansion will vent out the regulators relief valve, & should only be air because of the amount of air in the air lines to the thruster. Without compensation water can come in to the thruster from external pressure & by being sucked in when the oil cools. Alan > On 4/06/2019, at 8:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors? > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 19:14:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 16:14:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190603161424.581D679@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 20:01:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603161424.581D679@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190603161424.581D679@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <9A59A105-56FF-4804-BAB9-F9B8495DDA85@yahoo.com> Brian, I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard! If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag around the top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible items that would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40. I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open valves. Alan > On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem. I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+) So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion hose. > > Alan, That sounds like it could be an option for me. I'll have to check that out. > > What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open. And I might put a large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" ) at the bottom . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. KISS they work perfectly for years now. > Hank > > On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors? > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 20:25:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 17:25:14 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190603172514.5820158@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 21:31:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603172514.5820158@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20190603172514.5820158@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <6A0ADDA3-698A-4D0F-92D3-8461A6CF1F50@yahoo.com> Brian, you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough to contain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion data on the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worst case scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though. I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently but can't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who") Alan > On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube. To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 > > Brian, > I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard! > If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag around > the top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible items > that would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need > Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40. > I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air > pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open > valves. > Alan > > > On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem. I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+) So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion hose. > > Alan, That sounds like it could be an option for me. I'll have to check that out. > > What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open. And I might put a large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" ) at the bottom . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. KISS they work perfectly for years now. > Hank > > On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors? > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 23:06:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 20:06:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190603200640.5802C7E@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 3 23:55:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:55:54 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603200640.5802C7E@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190603200640.5802C7E@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <84FEFA5A-B3FB-45C6-9218-77962FA7CF47@yahoo.com> Brian, what I meant by added weight was that when the air is compressed it is replaced by water making the sub heavier. It won't be much. Of concern is that there will be air in the thruster that you won't be able to get out & you may not be able to account for it in your calculations. If you get it wrong & get water in through the tube, it will keep coming in (being heavier than oil) until it has replaced all your oil! It will kill your motor. I have stuffed up a lot of electronics & batteries of late with sea water. Alan > On 4/06/2019, at 3:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The motor is outside the sub so I don't think there would be any added weight . > > Once the motor with the wd40 heated up to it's maximum temp ( in my yard) then that would be the base line quantity of oil. I would let it bleed out to the top of the ridge of the tube and spill out. Then it would contract and I would just have to make sure the water going up the tube would not travel up as far as the top point of the tube where it heads back down to the motor. > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 > > Brian, > you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough to > contain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion data > on the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worst > case scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive > depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though. > I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently but > can't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who") > Alan > > > On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube. To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 > > Brian, > I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard! > If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag around > the top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible items > that would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need > Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40. > I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air > pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open > valves. > Alan > > > On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem. I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+) So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion hose. > > Alan, That sounds like it could be an option for me. I'll have to check that out. > > What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open. And I might put a large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" ) at the bottom . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. KISS they work perfectly for years now. > Hank > > On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors? > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 4 00:01:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:01:10 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190603210110.5802F83@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 4 08:02:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:02:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190603210110.5802F83@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190603210110.5802F83@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <815689434.386819.1559649737660@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Your right Gamma sits in a cool shop and dives in cold water. ?With your big motors, pick up an air bag from the wreckers. ?Fill the bag half way or less with WD40 and squeeze the bag until the oil starts to come out the top. ?Then get your wife to attach the vent tube to the bag. ?Avoid air being trapped as much as possible. ?A bit of air won't hurt anything. ?Then mount the bag out of the way and forget about it. ?Bye the way, Deep Workers have air bags on them from trucks.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 10:01:23 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm, yes you're right. --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:55:54 +1200 Brian,what I meant by added weight was that when the air is compressed it isreplaced by water making the sub heavier. It won't be much.Of concern is that there will be air in the thruster that you won't be ableto get out & you may not be able to account for it in your calculations.If you get it wrong & get water in through the tube, it will keep comingin (being heavier than oil) until it has replaced all your oil!?It will kill your motor. I have stuffed up a lot of electronics & batteries of late?with sea water.?Alan On 4/06/2019, at 3:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ?The motor is outside the sub so I don't think there would be any added weight . Once the motor with the wd40 heated up to it's maximum temp ( in my yard) then that would be the base line quantity of oil.? I would let it bleed out to the top of the ridge of the tube and spill out.? Then it would contract and I would just have to make sure the water going up the tube would not travel up as far as the top point of the tube where it heads back down to the motor.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 Brian,you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough tocontain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion dataon the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worstcase scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive?depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though.I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently butcan't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who")Alan On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube.? ?To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 Brian,I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard!If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag aroundthe top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible itemsthat would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need?Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40.I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air?pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open?valves.Alan On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ?I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem.? I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+)? So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion?hose.? ?? Alan,? ?That sounds like it could be an option for me.? I'll have to check that out. ?What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from?the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open.? ?And I might put a??large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" )? at the bottom . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. ?I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. ?In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. ?KISS they work perfectly for years now.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors??? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 4 09:53:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 06:53:02 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190604065302.581D129@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 4 10:56:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:56:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190604065302.581D129@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190604065302.581D129@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <294320618.427442.1559660195902@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?I did the same with an inner tube once and it was okay but it had motor oil in it. ?My air bag is still perfect with wd 40Hank On Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 7:53:18 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ? ? ? ? ? ? I thought I had a nice set up , I was using a small inner tube?from a quad runner, and I hooked it up similar to what you described,? when I checked it last the rubber had deteriorated badly from the wd40 with big holes in it.? Are those air bags pretty chemically resistant ??? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:02:17 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Your right Gamma sits in a cool shop and dives in cold water. ?With your big motors, pick up an air bag from the wreckers. ?Fill the bag half way or less with WD40 and squeeze the bag until the oil starts to come out the top. ?Then get your wife to attach the vent tube to the bag. ?Avoid air being trapped as much as possible. ?A bit of air won't hurt anything. ?Then mount the bag out of the way and forget about it. ?Bye the way, Deep Workers have air bags on them from trucks.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 10:01:23 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm, yes you're right. --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:55:54 +1200 Brian,what I meant by added weight was that when the air is compressed it isreplaced by water making the sub heavier. It won't be much.Of concern is that there will be air in the thruster that you won't be ableto get out & you may not be able to account for it in your calculations.If you get it wrong & get water in through the tube, it will keep comingin (being heavier than oil) until it has replaced all your oil!?It will kill your motor. I have stuffed up a lot of electronics & batteries of late?with sea water.?Alan On 4/06/2019, at 3:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ?The motor is outside the sub so I don't think there would be any added weight . Once the motor with the wd40 heated up to it's maximum temp ( in my yard) then that would be the base line quantity of oil.? I would let it bleed out to the top of the ridge of the tube and spill out.? Then it would contract and I would just have to make sure the water going up the tube would not travel up as far as the top point of the tube where it heads back down to the motor.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 Brian,you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough tocontain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion dataon the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worstcase scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive?depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though.I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently butcan't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who")Alan On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube.? ?To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 Brian,I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard!If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag aroundthe top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible itemsthat would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need?Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40.I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air?pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open?valves.Alan On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ?I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem.? I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+)? So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion?hose.? ?? Alan,? ?That sounds like it could be an option for me.? I'll have to check that out. ?What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from?the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open.? ?And I might put a??large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" )? at the bottom . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. ?I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. ?In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. ?KISS they work perfectly for years now.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors??? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 4 20:34:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 17:34:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190604173418.583D678@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 5 07:11:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:11:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190604173418.583D678@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20190604173418.583D678@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1585047483.919473.1559733115581@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,The air bags we use are from truck suspension systems. ?they replace leaf or coil springs.Hank On Tuesday, June 4, 2019, 6:34:37 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What kind of air bags are you talking about? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:02:17 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Your right Gamma sits in a cool shop and dives in cold water. ?With your big motors, pick up an air bag from the wreckers. ?Fill the bag half way or less with WD40 and squeeze the bag until the oil starts to come out the top. ?Then get your wife to attach the vent tube to the bag. ?Avoid air being trapped as much as possible. ?A bit of air won't hurt anything. ?Then mount the bag out of the way and forget about it. ?Bye the way, Deep Workers have air bags on them from trucks.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 10:01:23 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hmm, yes you're right. --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:55:54 +1200 Brian,what I meant by added weight was that when the air is compressed it isreplaced by water making the sub heavier. It won't be much.Of concern is that there will be air in the thruster that you won't be ableto get out & you may not be able to account for it in your calculations.If you get it wrong & get water in through the tube, it will keep comingin (being heavier than oil) until it has replaced all your oil!?It will kill your motor. I have stuffed up a lot of electronics & batteries of late?with sea water.?Alan On 4/06/2019, at 3:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ?The motor is outside the sub so I don't think there would be any added weight . Once the motor with the wd40 heated up to it's maximum temp ( in my yard) then that would be the base line quantity of oil.? I would let it bleed out to the top of the ridge of the tube and spill out.? Then it would contract and I would just have to make sure the water going up the tube would not travel up as far as the top point of the tube where it heads back down to the motor.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 Brian,you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough tocontain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion dataon the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worstcase scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive?depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though.I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently butcan't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who")Alan On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube.? ?To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 Brian,I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard!If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag aroundthe top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible itemsthat would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need?Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40.I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air?pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open?valves.Alan On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ?I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem.? I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+)? So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion?hose.? ?? Alan,? ?That sounds like it could be an option for me.? I'll have to check that out. ?What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from?the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open.? ?And I might put a??large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" )? at the bottom . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. ?I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. ?In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. ?KISS they work perfectly for years now.Hank On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors??? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 5 07:14:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1807518780.943065.1559733253210@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, like theseHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019, 5:13:19 AM MDTSubject: SPONSORED Air Ride Suspension Pair Standard 2500lb Air Bags with fittings and 3/8"airline https://www.ebay.com/itm/Air-Ride-Suspension-Pair-Standard-2500lb-Air-Bags-with-fittings-and-3-8-airline/372118547046?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item56a3fe6a66:g:9JcAAOSwr6pZ86do&enc=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&checksum=372118547046a48e00c5281648f8b66c67f31a5a54ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 2019-06-05 at 5.12 AM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 5 12:33:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 09:33:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion Message-ID: <20190605093352.57EB955@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compplug.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21165 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compplug3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16679 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: comppulg2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17868 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 5 16:01:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 08:01:22 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion In-Reply-To: <20190605093352.57EB955@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20190605093352.57EB955@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <6D81CFEE-52A6-4B21-BEDF-1B6679B95877@yahoo.com> Brian, the oil would expand & force air out your one way valve, then It would contract in the cold water pulling a vacuum & help water to migrate through your rotary shaft seal. There are X military papers on shaft seals & oil compensators you can download for free that go over alternatives. As said before, an overpressure of around 5psi is standard. Alan > On 6/06/2019, at 4:33 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here's an idea I had for compensation . This little traveling plug goes in the oil compensating hose coming from the motor, it has a o ring in it so it gets pushed which ever way it will depending on the pressure. It would prevent water going into the motor compartment since it essentially would block any flow. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 17:34:18 -0700 > > Hank, > What kind of air bags are you talking about? > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:02:17 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Your right Gamma sits in a cool shop and dives in cold water. With your big motors, pick up an air bag from the wreckers. Fill the bag half way or less with WD40 and squeeze the bag until the oil starts to come out the top. Then get your wife to attach the vent tube to the bag. Avoid air being trapped as much as possible. A bit of air won't hurt anything. Then mount the bag out of the way and forget about it. Bye the way, Deep Workers have air bags on them from trucks. > Hank > > On Monday, June 3, 2019, 10:01:23 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hmm, yes you're right. > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 15:55:54 +1200 > > Brian, > what I meant by added weight was that when the air is compressed it is > replaced by water making the sub heavier. It won't be much. > Of concern is that there will be air in the thruster that you won't be able > to get out & you may not be able to account for it in your calculations. > If you get it wrong & get water in through the tube, it will keep coming > in (being heavier than oil) until it has replaced all your oil! > It will kill your motor. I have stuffed up a lot of electronics & batteries of late > with sea water. > Alan > > On 4/06/2019, at 3:06 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The motor is outside the sub so I don't think there would be any added weight . > > Once the motor with the wd40 heated up to it's maximum temp ( in my yard) then that would be the base line quantity of oil. I would let it bleed out to the top of the ridge of the tube and spill out. Then it would contract and I would just have to make sure the water going up the tube would not travel up as far as the top point of the tube where it heads back down to the motor. > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 13:31:04 +1200 > > Brian, > you could, but the narrow tube would need to be big enough to > contain the expansion of the WD40. There is coefficient of expansion data > on the WD40 documents, so you could work out what you need in a worst > case scenario, then work out the compression of the air at your maximum dive > depth. You will become slightly heavier at depth with that method though. > I did see a bellows type item posted by a psubber on Facebook recently but > can't remember by whom. ( or is it "by who") > Alan > > > On 4/06/2019, at 12:25 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I was thinking if the tube was pointing down into the water then as you submerged the pressure in the water would compress the air up into the tube. To allow for deeper depths ( even though the most compression occurs initially at 33') to make sure the water traveling up the tube doesn't make the turn and head down to the motor I was thinking of putting a larger diameter pipe at the bottom so there would be more air to compress thereby compressing everything below the turn. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:01:14 +1200 > > Brian, > I wasn't thinking of it sitting in the yard! > If you were leaving the tube open, you could just tape a plastic bag around > the top during storage. There are probably hundreds of flexible items > that would be suitable for a permanent solution if you didn't need > Over pressure, just make sure they are compatible with WD40. > I don't think the regulator would be an option for storage as it relies on air > pressure from the tanks; unless you want to keep them on your sub with open > valves. > Alan > > > On 4/06/2019, at 11:14 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, I think in your situation where it's really cold you have less of a problem. I have two things working against me , I have a very large volume of oil (wd40) and we have some pretty significant temperature swings here ( from 40F to 90F+) So when my sub sits out in my yard the oil starts creeping up the expansion hose. > > Alan, That sounds like it could be an option for me. I'll have to check that out. > > What I'm thinking about doing in the meantime is running a hose up from the motor and then and then down to the bottom of the sub and just leave it open. And I might put a large diameter pvc pipe ( 1 1/2" ) at the bottom . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Oil expansion > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Have two oil filled motors on Gamma for vertical thrusters. I fill them put in the plug and forget about them. In the fall I drain the oil and refill in the spring. KISS they work perfectly for years now. > Hank > > On Monday, June 3, 2019, 2:41:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > What is everybody doing to allow for expansion and contraction of their oil filled motors? > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 15:32:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:32:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] another test Message-ID: <20190607123200.2EE5A862@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 16:24:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 20:24:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] another test In-Reply-To: <20190607123200.2EE5A862@m0117460.ppops.net> References: <20190607123200.2EE5A862@m0117460.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1434669078.412958.1559939042378@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Post a picture of the new set up.Hank On Friday, June 7, 2019, 1:32:47 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Did another test today down at the boatyard.? I installed that cng tank thinking that it would be wonderful but it was not the case.? I'm still trying to process what was going on but it had the effect of causing me to be unstable and did not bring the nose up like I had hoped.? I think what I did was raise the COG making things unstable.? The tank was located in my "saddle" area and since it is quite low it had the effect of throwing things off.? Looks like I'm just going to yank that thing out and put some flotation buoys up high.?? ? I did get to monitor my O2 and CO2? for the time I was inside.? Which was working good.?? ?Arrrggggg ! Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 17:04:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 14:04:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] another test Message-ID: <20190607140426.2EE58F96@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 17:16:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 14:16:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CNG1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62900 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CNG2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 55634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 17:29:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 09:29:01 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <9B06553E-D2A7-488C-9B94-2BE45A1C4EE9@yahoo.com> Brian, Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can you get air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher! Alan > On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here is a pic of the tank: > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 17:38:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 16:38:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <988A0C26-C60A-4299-BE4A-8F4ABB3AEFEC@snyderemail.com> So freaking cool!!!! I am just a little bit cooler for knowing you. Greg > On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:16 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here is a pic of the tank: > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 17:40:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 14:40:52 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190607144052.2EE4585E@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 19:04:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 16:04:56 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190607160456.2EE5D944@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 19:59:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:59:45 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <9B06553E-D2A7-488C-9B94-2BE45A1C4EE9@yahoo.com> References: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> <9B06553E-D2A7-488C-9B94-2BE45A1C4EE9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67A66AAA-DF16-4C90-93D1-3134762C6735@yahoo.ca> Brian. Just raise the tank as high as possible. Changing to trawl floats will make no difference. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 7, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can you > get air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the > Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher! > Alan > >> On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Here is a pic of the tank: >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 20:30:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:30:18 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, at the front there are planes with metal tubes attached to them; could you experiment by tying floats to these bars on either side. If you mounted your floats as far to the front as possible you would get more leverage from your floatation & if the floatation was on either side it would be like pontoons that would stop you rolling over. Alan > On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here is a pic of the tank: > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 7 22:01:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 02:01:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: References: <20190607141600.2EE58D38@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2060014639.19275.1559959267503@mail.yahoo.com> I'm admittedly just guessing here, but I don't think raising it to the top of the cover is going to gain you much more stability.? I think a saddle configuration on the outside would solve the issue, although I'm sure that's not what you really want to do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 13:13:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 10:13:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190608101303.2EE59363@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 15:22:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:22:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190608122226.2EE596B6@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vertical1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54870 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vertical2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 17:07:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 21:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190608122226.2EE596B6@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190608122226.2EE596B6@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <645384925.242757.1560028079601@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Funny, my first log salvage ROV had two horizontal tanks and was very unstable so we did exactly that and stood them up and it worked fantastic. ?I bet if you keep it horizontal and raise it to the max it will work good.Hank On Saturday, June 8, 2019, 1:22:39 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe I could mount it like this? ..lol Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 10:13:03 -0700 Raising the tank is definitely?what I need to do , just not sure if there is enough space there to make a difference , but it's definitely worth a try before I do anything drastic .? I won't start cutting those concrete front wings off just yet.?? ? Just as a side note though, which more of a curiosity ,? I could have a free floating tank with guides that would float up until it started influencing the buoyancy .?? Brian ?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:59:45 -0600 Brian. ?Just raise the tank as high as possible. Changing to trawl floats will make no difference.Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can youget air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the?Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher!Alan On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here is a pic of the tank: Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 17:31:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 09:31:13 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190608122226.2EE596B6@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190608122226.2EE596B6@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, However you mount it, it will need to be protected from collision. You would start descending fast if it ruptured. From the beginning I was dubious about your concrete ballast tanks, because of the weight in them. Once the air is out of them you have a lot of weight in that concrete that is relatively high. There is probably no stability issue that you can't rectify by adding floatation up high & weight down low, but it ends up as additional weight to your sub. Alan > On 9/06/2019, at 7:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Maybe I could mount it like this ..lol > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 10:13:03 -0700 > > Raising the tank is definitely what I need to do , just not sure if there is enough space there to make a difference , but it's definitely worth a try before I do anything drastic . I won't start cutting those concrete front wings off just yet. > > Just as a side note though, which more of a curiosity , I could have a free floating tank with guides that would float up until it started influencing the buoyancy . > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:59:45 -0600 > > Brian. Just raise the tank as high as possible. Changing to trawl floats will make no difference. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 7, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can you > get air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the > Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher! > Alan > > On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here is a pic of the tank: > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 21:12:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 18:12:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Message-ID: <20190608181258.2EE4019C@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 8 21:37:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 13:37:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: <20190608181258.2EE4019C@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190608181258.2EE4019C@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, a pity you haven't got a pit in your back yard to test in like Hank. It must get expensive transporting & hiring the crane every time. I would suggest grabbing anything that floats that you can attach to your sub (20 litre containers etc) and also anything heavy you can attach, & booking yourself sufficient time to leisurely move floatation & weights around till you are neutrally buoyant & stable. Then look at replicating that with syntactic foam or whatever. I know this will be a pain but I think it will be the quickest way to get it right. I did similar but in a swimming pool. Any Psubbers near you that could help? Alan > On 9/06/2019, at 1:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, Alan, Yes I'm hoping for the best , I've got that tank as high as it will go, it may just work, the flotation will not engage until later now. I know Carsten has vertical tanks inside his Euronaut but I'm not doing that .. I still have another option of bringing the tank out of out the shell and angling up a bit as well. Also I still have some syntactic foam that I might strap onto the front wings to get that nose up. > > The large ferro cement ballast tank structure seems to be proving it's merit for when it is on the surface and for supply ample freeboard but in submerge mode the only real buoyancy that I'm getting is from the pressure hull, everything else is just dead weight or neutral. I want to completely flood the ballast so I don't get any free moving water, although I could stand some bubble in the very top of the two saddle chambers I think. > > But Hank I think I'm still going to need some of those buoy things. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 21:07:59 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Funny, my first log salvage ROV had two horizontal tanks and was very unstable so we did exactly that and stood them up and it worked fantastic. I bet if you keep it horizontal and raise it to the max it will work good. > Hank > > On Saturday, June 8, 2019, 1:22:39 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Maybe I could mount it like this ..lol > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed > Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 10:13:03 -0700 > > Raising the tank is definitely what I need to do , just not sure if there is enough space there to make a difference , but it's definitely worth a try before I do anything drastic . I won't start cutting those concrete front wings off just yet. > > Just as a side note though, which more of a curiosity , I could have a free floating tank with guides that would float up until it started influencing the buoyancy . > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:59:45 -0600 > > Brian. Just raise the tank as high as possible. Changing to trawl floats will make no difference. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 7, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, > Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can you > get air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the > Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher! > Alan > > On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Here is a pic of the tank: > > > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 9 05:51:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 09:51:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed In-Reply-To: References: <20190608181258.2EE4019C@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <229303284.344711.1560073886612@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I bought the trawl floats from Trawlworks in the USA. ?Alan has a great idea there. ?I have dragged 20 lb propane type tanks to my test pool and tied them to a sub to get things sorted out. ?Hank On Saturday, June 8, 2019, 7:38:20 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,a pity you haven't got a pit in your back yard to test in like Hank.It must get expensive transporting & hiring the crane every time.I would suggest grabbing anything that floats that you can attachto your sub (20 litre containers etc) and also anything heavy you?can attach, & booking yourself sufficient time ?to leisurely move?floatation & weights around till you are neutrally buoyant & stable.?Then look at replicating that with syntactic foam or whatever.I know this will be a pain but I think it will be the quickest way toget it right. I did similar but in a swimming pool.Any Psubbers near you that could help?Alan On 9/06/2019, at 1:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Alan,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Yes I'm hoping for the best , I've got that tank as high as it will?go, it may just work, the flotation will not engage until later now.? I know Carsten has vertical tanks inside his Euronaut but I'm not doing that ..? ? I still have another option of bringing the tank out of out the shell and angling up a bit as well.? ?Also I still have some syntactic foam that I might strap onto the front wings to get that nose up.?? ? The large ferro cement ballast tank structure seems to be proving it's merit for when it is on the surface and for supply ample freeboard but in submerge mode the only real buoyancy that I'm getting is from the pressure hull, everything else is just dead weight or neutral.? I want to completely?flood the ballast so I don't get any free moving water, although I could stand some bubble in the very top of the two saddle chambers I think.?? But Hank I think I'm still going to need some of those buoy things. Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 21:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Funny, my first log salvage ROV had two horizontal tanks and was very unstable so we did exactly that and stood them up and it worked fantastic. ?I bet if you keep it horizontal and raise it to the max it will work good.Hank On Saturday, June 8, 2019, 1:22:39 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe I could mount it like this? ..lol Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 10:13:03 -0700 Raising the tank is definitely?what I need to do , just not sure if there is enough space there to make a difference , but it's definitely worth a try before I do anything drastic .? I won't start cutting those concrete front wings off just yet.?? ? Just as a side note though, which more of a curiosity ,? I could have a free floating tank with guides that would float up until it started influencing the buoyancy .?? Brian ?? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CNG installed Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:59:45 -0600 Brian. ?Just raise the tank as high as possible. Changing to trawl floats will make no difference.Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,Is that faring above the tank a free flooding area & if so can youget air trapped in it. There looks to be a foot of space between the?Tank & faring; can you mount the tank higher!Alan On 8/06/2019, at 9:16 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Here is a pic of the tank: Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 12 12:45:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:45:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres Message-ID: <20190612094505.43D2E894@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 12 12:55:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:55:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres Message-ID: <20190612095551.43D1744F@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 12 13:22:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:22:30 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres Message-ID: <20190612102230.43D3A160@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 12 19:38:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:38:16 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres In-Reply-To: <20190612102230.43D3A160@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190612102230.43D3A160@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <91D4F5E4-B4B9-4FFC-9465-F556729BC34D@yahoo.com> Brian, you would have to know for sure as if it started to crush, the momentum could cause the lot to collapse sending you to the bottom fast. Also with just the foam, it is more likely to degrade in time. You may be wasting time & money if it doesn't stabilise you as you hope. I still think my suggestion of tying various items to varying parts of the sub is the quickest & cheapest solution. You could use 20 litre plastic containers with handles, inflatable objects etc & anything heavy. Come with a truck load of items & divers to place the items & swing on the conning tower (test stability). Video the proceedings & weigh every thing later after you have it right. Any floatation devices you can hang weights off to check their floatation, after the cranes gone. It took me ages getting my ambient sub right. You think you've got it right, fail & go back home & melt some more lead :( Alan > On 13/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This 16lb density might work: > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:55:51 -0700 > > Or maybe a polyurethane foam would be strong enough ? Without the macrospheres > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "PSubs " > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:45:05 -0700 > > Hi All, > > Does anyone know a good source for macrospheres? 500psi would suffice. I was thinking I could fill the upper chamber area of my ferro-cement with macrospheres and seal that top area off . I could use almost pure macro spheres since that area is already a defined chamber. I tried to find Cliff's reference to "Macrospheres - Cumings Corp BA-38 1/4-3/8" 12-15 lbm/ft3" from his article on the psubs website but no luck. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 12 21:14:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 18:14:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres Message-ID: <20190612181407.43D492AC@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 08:19:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 00:19:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video Message-ID: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> Jon, that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats that stood out. I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket without pressure. Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are soldered on, in case of water egress. I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is something we are doing a lot of. Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 09:27:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 13:27:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. ?I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. ?Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. ?Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. ? I have not investigated completely yet. ?I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. ?this is my first time potting electronics, ? I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators.Hank On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats that stood out. I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket without pressure. Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible than the? epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are soldered on, in case of water egress. I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is something we are doing a lot of. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 11:40:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 08:40:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres In-Reply-To: <20190612181407.43D492AC@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190612181407.43D492AC@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, before you order foam, I'll let you know my experience recently with the manufacture of foam made for Alec and myself. David On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:14 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alan, > This is the obvious solution, and is a win win situation. I > get more buoyancy and it takes less air to fill the ballast ! I pretty > much had this in the back of my mind I think but forgot about it , but it's > great, buoyancy up high where I need it and I have a ready made space for > it to go. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres > Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:38:16 +1200 > > Brian, > you would have to know for sure as if it started to crush, the momentum > could cause the lot to collapse sending you to the bottom fast. > Also with just the foam, it is more likely to degrade in time. > You may be wasting time & money if it doesn't stabilise you as you hope. > I still think my suggestion of tying various items to varying parts of the > sub is the quickest & cheapest solution. You could use 20 litre plastic > containers with handles, inflatable objects etc & anything heavy. > Come with a truck load of items & divers to place the items & swing on > the conning tower (test stability). Video the proceedings & weigh every > thing later after you have it right. Any floatation devices you can hang > weights > off to check their floatation, after the cranes gone. > It took me ages getting my ambient sub right. You think you've got it > right, > fail & go back home & melt some more lead :( > Alan > > On 13/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > This 16lb density might work: > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:55:51 -0700 > > Or maybe a polyurethane foam would be strong enough ? Without the > macrospheres > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "PSubs " > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:45:05 -0700 > > Hi All, > > Does anyone know a good source for macrospheres? 500psi would suffice. > I was thinking I could fill the upper chamber area of my ferro-cement with > macrospheres and seal that top area off . I could use almost pure macro > spheres since that area is already a defined chamber. I tried to find > Cliff's reference to "Macrospheres - Cumings Corp BA-38 1/4-3/8" 12-15 > lbm/ft3" from his article on the psubs website but no luck. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 11:50:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 08:50:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Macrospheres Message-ID: <20190613085037.43D223C6@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 12:18:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 16:18:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My go-to compounds for exactly this application: https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/potting-compounds/epoxy-potting-compounds/ Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alan, > I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. > Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. > I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. > Hank > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. > Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. > I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. > I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of > the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats > that stood out. > I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 > filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket > without pressure. > Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible > than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. > Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are > soldered on, in case of water egress. > I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. > I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is > something we are doing a lot of. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 14:47:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 06:47:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> Hank, that's good to hear you have had success. If you strip a section of the wire in the epoxy and use pins as you do you have a better chance. This is what we have done in the past. In Doug's SV Seeker video on pressure testing penetrators, he has a big failure rate & he is using pins in the potted section. I am now coating my epoxy, part of my fitting & an inch up my wires with my PVC glue as a flexible adhesive barrier, then molding polyeurathane over that. Alan > On 14/06/2019, at 1:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. > Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. > I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. > Hank > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. > Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. > I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. > I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of > the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats > that stood out. > I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 > filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket > without pressure. > Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible > than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. > Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are > soldered on, in case of water egress. > I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. > I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is > something we are doing a lot of. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 14:52:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 06:52:54 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17ADE2C6-102A-4096-86B1-9B47445E6C9E@yahoo.com> Sean, interesting; they are not saying it is any more adhesive than normal epoxy, but are touting its thermal properties. That makes me think that standard epoxy would be OK if the electronics aren't drawing much current. Alan > On 14/06/2019, at 4:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > My go-to compounds for exactly this application: > > https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/potting-compounds/epoxy-potting-compounds/ > > Sean > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Alan, >> I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. >> Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. >> I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. >> Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. >> I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. >> I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of >> the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats >> that stood out. >> I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 >> filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket >> without pressure. >> Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible >> than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. >> Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are >> soldered on, in case of water egress. >> I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. >> I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is >> something we are doing a lot of. >> Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 15:16:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 19:16:41 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <17ADE2C6-102A-4096-86B1-9B47445E6C9E@yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <17ADE2C6-102A-4096-86B1-9B47445E6C9E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: These potting compounds are a bit more compliant when cured compared to e.g. a typical marine two part epoxy - particularly the 832FX product. Anything too rigid will have a tendency to break adhesion under strain or thermal shock. Conversely, too soft and it won't hold the pressure, depending on bulk thickness. MG also makes polyurethanes, but I haven't used them personally. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun 13, 2019, 12:52, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > interesting; they are not saying it is any more adhesive than normal > epoxy, but are touting its thermal properties. That makes me think > that standard epoxy would be OK if the electronics aren't drawing > much current. > Alan > > On 14/06/2019, at 4:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> My go-to compounds for exactly this application: >> >> https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/potting-compounds/epoxy-potting-compounds/ >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Alan, >>> I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. >>> Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. >>> I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Jon, >>> that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. >>> Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. >>> I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. >>> I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of >>> the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats >>> that stood out. >>> I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 >>> filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket >>> without pressure. >>> Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible >>> than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. >>> Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are >>> soldered on, in case of water egress. >>> I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. >>> I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is >>> something we are doing a lot of. >>> Alan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 16:51:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 08:51:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <17ADE2C6-102A-4096-86B1-9B47445E6C9E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here's a good article on bonding epoxy to PVC pipe, showing varying methods & their test results. https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/bonding-pvc-plastic-with-epoxy/ They use a West Systems epoxy but recommend another product. Alan > On 14/06/2019, at 7:16 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > These potting compounds are a bit more compliant when cured compared to e.g. a typical marine two part epoxy - particularly the 832FX product. Anything too rigid will have a tendency to break adhesion under strain or thermal shock. Conversely, too soft and it won't hold the pressure, depending on bulk thickness. MG also makes polyurethanes, but I haven't used them personally. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jun 13, 2019, 12:52, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > interesting; they are not saying it is any more adhesive than normal > epoxy, but are touting its thermal properties. That makes me think > that standard epoxy would be OK if the electronics aren't drawing > much current. > Alan > >> On 14/06/2019, at 4:18 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> My go-to compounds for exactly this application: >> >> https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/potting-compounds/epoxy-potting-compounds/ >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Alan, >>> I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. >>> Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. >>> I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Jon, >>> that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. >>> Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. >>> I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. >>> I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of >>> the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats >>> that stood out. >>> I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 >>> filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket >>> without pressure. >>> Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible >>> than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. >>> Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are >>> soldered on, in case of water egress. >>> I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. >>> I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is >>> something we are doing a lot of. >>> Alan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 17:32:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447734206.960639.1560461566503@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, all great points and I wouldn't argue against them.? You may be right about the epoxy/pvc adhesion, and as usual the internet isn't much help.? I can find as many "don't do it" as "it works fine" opinions out there.? I should have scuffed it up a bit though, that would have helped with adhesion.? In the past I have fabricated my own "blue globe" fittings out of brass compression fittings but I wanted all plastic so I wouldn't have to worry about decay of the brass by salt-water.??I mentioned a couple of times in the video that this was a non-critical component but maybe should have impressed that a bit more on the viewer.? PVC certainly would not be my choice for a critical application. Jon On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 08:22:08 AM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats that stood out. I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket without pressure. Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible than the? epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are soldered on, in case of water egress. I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is something we are doing a lot of. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 17:58:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 09:58:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <447734206.960639.1560461566503@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <447734206.960639.1560461566503@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46BDA497-9B5A-49CA-9CFE-A4BA1A20353A@yahoo.com> Jon, I like the choice of PVC & think it would be quite strong, & if you potted inside, even stronger. I am paranoid as I have destroyed a lot of electronics with salt water. And had water sucked up inside the wire jackets for a metre due to heating & cooling. Maybe on the compass project strip a section of the wire going through the epoxy & use one of the techniques in the link to improve the PVC bond X 3 times. And go over the board with the epoxy. Was doing this on my LED driver last night. Alan > On 14/06/2019, at 9:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, all great points and I wouldn't argue against them. You may be right about the epoxy/pvc adhesion, and as usual the internet isn't much help. I can find as many "don't do it" as "it works fine" opinions out there. I should have scuffed it up a bit though, that would have helped with adhesion. In the past I have fabricated my own "blue globe" fittings out of brass compression fittings but I wanted all plastic so I wouldn't have to worry about decay of the brass by salt-water. I mentioned a couple of times in the video that this was a non-critical component but maybe should have impressed that a bit more on the viewer. PVC certainly would not be my choice for a critical application. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 08:22:08 AM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. > Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. > I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. > I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of > the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats > that stood out. > I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 > filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket > without pressure. > Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible > than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. > Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are > soldered on, in case of water egress. > I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. > I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is > something we are doing a lot of. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1449285 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 18:31:25 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:31:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> Jon can you resend the link to the compass video. Somehow it did not come through. Cliff Sent from my iPad > On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hank, > that's good to hear you have had success. > If you strip a section of the wire in the epoxy and use pins as you do > you have a better chance. This is what we have done in the past. > In Doug's SV Seeker video on pressure testing penetrators, he has a big > failure rate & he is using pins in the potted section. > I am now coating my epoxy, part of my fitting & an inch up my wires > with my PVC glue as a flexible adhesive barrier, then molding polyeurathane > over that. > Alan > > > > > >> On 14/06/2019, at 1:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. >> Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. I have not investigated completely yet. >> I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. this is my first time potting electronics, I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators. >> Hank >> >> On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, >> that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. >> Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. >> I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. >> I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of >> the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats >> that stood out. >> I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 >> filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket >> without pressure. >> Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible >> than the epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. >> Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are >> soldered on, in case of water egress. >> I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. >> I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is >> something we are doing a lot of. >> Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 13 19:16:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 23:16:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <284195009.994453.1560467796869@mail.yahoo.com> Waterproof Housing for Electronic Compass | | | | | | | | | | | Waterproof Housing for Electronic Compass | | | On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 06:33:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon can you resend the link to the compass video. ?Somehow it did not come through.? Cliff Sent from my iPad On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,that's good to hear you have had success.If you strip a section of the wire in the epoxy and use pins as you doyou have a better chance. This is what we have done in the past.In Doug's SV Seeker video on pressure testing penetrators, he has a bigfailure rate & he is using pins in the potted section.I am now coating my epoxy, part of my fitting & an inch up my wireswith my PVC glue as a flexible adhesive barrier, then molding polyeurathaneover that.Alan ? On 14/06/2019, at 1:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I have had good luck with epoxy for potting penetrators in metal fittings. ?I have pressure tested well past 1,000 psi with good success. ?Gamma and E3000 both have 20 pin penetrators using casting resin and were pressure tested above 1,000 psi. ?Having said that, I potted my new compass sensor with epoxy and the sensor has failed possibly. ? I have not investigated completely yet. ?I would have concerns now about potting electronics in epoxy. ?this is my first time potting electronics, ? I would recommend buying electronic specific potting material and keep using casting resin or epoxy for power penetrators.Hank On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 6:20:21 AM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats that stood out. I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket without pressure. Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible than the? epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are soldered on, in case of water egress. I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is something we are doing a lot of. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 14 09:46:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <46BDA497-9B5A-49CA-9CFE-A4BA1A20353A@yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <447734206.960639.1560461566503@mail.yahoo.com> <46BDA497-9B5A-49CA-9CFE-A4BA1A20353A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339342277.1239783.1560519977267@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, I like the idea of epoxying the transition between bare wire and insulation.? I think that's a good basic rule to follow.? I forgot about it this time but will follow it next time.? As far as potting the entire volume of the PVC housing, I have enough confidence in the housing that I just didn't think I needed to.? Even in the worst case possible, failure and water entering through the wire insulation, it's not like that water is going to immediately seep the ten feet of wire that will be involved...and even if it managed to do that, it wouldn't be a flooding threat that would prevent me from surfacing.? However, point taken regarding flooding and damage to electronics and wiring.? It's easy to say "it's only $30" but that does add up eventually into real money.? I have already learned that.? I kept adding sensors to my SCM project over a period of weeks and months.? Each sensor by itself was pretty cheap and I thought, gee why isn't everyone doing this.? It wasn't until I added everything up that I realized I had about $1000 in parts alone invested in it. Regarding overall pressure failure at the wire entrance sealed with epoxy, I think taking into account practical application is reasonable.? At maximum depth, I will be around 300 psi, however the "area" of epoxy exposure is less than .049 inches (1.2mm) which equates to withstanding about 14.7 psi.? It's obvious that my method certainly would not survive thousands of PSI, but it doesn't have to.? You mentioned Doug Jackson having many failures with his DIY penetrators and I've seen those videos also.? My impression is that many of his failures were self inflicted, for example using the 5-minute epoxy product with the needle like dispenser that mixes automatically.? I've used that same product (once) and found that it didn't mix the two parts nearly enough for a strong bond.? That particular product is meant for the home owner who wants to repair a tea cup.? Ultimately, even with that he was at least once able to get a good enough seal for 2000 psi.? So I'm not surprised that Hank has had better luck with his penetrators using better epoxy and mixing practices.? Jon On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 06:02:59 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,I like the choice of PVC & think it would be quite strong, & if youpotted inside, even stronger.I am paranoid as I have destroyed a lot of electronics with salt water.And had water sucked up inside the wire jackets for a metre due toheating & cooling.Maybe on the compass project strip a section of the wire going throughthe epoxy & use one of the techniques in the link to improve the PVCbond X 3 times. And go over the board with the epoxy. Was doing this?on my LED driver last night.Alan On 14/06/2019, at 9:32 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, all great points and I wouldn't argue against them.? You may be right about the epoxy/pvc adhesion, and as usual the internet isn't much help.? I can find as many "don't do it" as "it works fine" opinions out there.? I should have scuffed it up a bit though, that would have helped with adhesion.? In the past I have fabricated my own "blue globe" fittings out of brass compression fittings but I wanted all plastic so I wouldn't have to worry about decay of the brass by salt-water.??I mentioned a couple of times in the video that this was a non-critical component but maybe should have impressed that a bit more on the viewer.? PVC certainly would not be my choice for a critical application. Jon On Thursday, June 13, 2019, 08:22:08 AM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, that was one of the most comprehensive "How to" videos I've seen. Have one of those compasses so will emulate that. I have reservations about epoxy sealing the wires though. I did a lot of experiments with glues & PVC wire jackets & found a lot of the glues disappointing. I found one product specifically for PVC boats that stood out. I have mentioned before that I potted a couple of wires for 1" in to a WD40 filled housing & the WD40 just ran out between the epoxy & wire jacket without pressure. Under pressure I would guess that the PVC jacket would be more compressible than the? epoxy resin around it & would tear away from it, letting water in. Suggest epoxying the whole board both sides & the wires where they are soldered on, in case of water egress. I have strong reservations about the epoxy sticking to the PVC pipe also. I would be interested in others opinions on this as potting wires is something we are doing a lot of. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1449285 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 14 10:15:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 14:15:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <284195009.994453.1560467796869@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> <284195009.994453.1560467796869@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1671508476.1248481.1560521716698@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, et al, To support multiple external sensors, my current thinking is to pass a single DB25 printer cable through the hull and terminate it within an air-compensated distribution box outside the hull.? Currently I'm planning on having only three external sensors (compass, water temp, light detector) but want to have a quick way of adding or changing out sensors without worrying about more penetrations in the hull.? Depending upon signal output most sensors are going to require three to four wires each which would provide a capability of supporting 6 to 8 sensors with this configuration.? Adding a power supply within the distribution box would result in supporting 12-24 sensors. I've thought about doing the same for 12vdc lighting or any other 12v requirement external to the hull.? Passing a single power cable to the distribution box and then using relays within that distribution box controlled by low voltage via the DB25 wiring.? It seems like this is a good approach for adding/changing external fixtures whether lighting, relays, etc.? I'm not sure there's a need for it though.? So some questions for my psubber brethren... If you have a single light, do you ever wish you had more? If you have multiple lights, do you run them all at the same time and do you ever wish you could control them separately, ie. just the ones port side, just the ones starboard? Do you have lights to the side?? Rear?? If you control them independently, how?? Separate penetrators for each? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 14 17:16:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:16:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <1671508476.1248481.1560521716698@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> <284195009.994453.1560467796869@mail.yahoo.com> <1671508476.1248481.1560521716698@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <381358543.1716738.1560547016442@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I did exactly what you described with E3000. ? ?I just have message wires to the battery box to control functions. ?I did it because I see no point in running big amps ?into the hull and then back out. ?Also it makes it easier to have a jettisoning ?occupant sphere. ? Lighting on Gamma originally was front, both sides and the back. ?I only have the front at the moment, but the sub is set up for side lights that I have to put back on. ?side lights are nice for sure especially in a K sub because you pilot it from the CT. ?I have separate penetrators for all the lights and a breaker switch in my panel for each light.Hank On Friday, June 14, 2019, 8:15:34 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, et al, To support multiple external sensors, my current thinking is to pass a single DB25 printer cable through the hull and terminate it within an air-compensated distribution box outside the hull.? Currently I'm planning on having only three external sensors (compass, water temp, light detector) but want to have a quick way of adding or changing out sensors without worrying about more penetrations in the hull.? Depending upon signal output most sensors are going to require three to four wires each which would provide a capability of supporting 6 to 8 sensors with this configuration.? Adding a power supply within the distribution box would result in supporting 12-24 sensors. I've thought about doing the same for 12vdc lighting or any other 12v requirement external to the hull.? Passing a single power cable to the distribution box and then using relays within that distribution box controlled by low voltage via the DB25 wiring.? It seems like this is a good approach for adding/changing external fixtures whether lighting, relays, etc.? I'm not sure there's a need for it though.? So some questions for my psubber brethren... If you have a single light, do you ever wish you had more? If you have multiple lights, do you run them all at the same time and do you ever wish you could control them separately, ie. just the ones port side, just the ones starboard? Do you have lights to the side?? Rear?? If you control them independently, how?? Separate penetrators for each? Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 14 17:58:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 09:58:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Compass Video In-Reply-To: <1671508476.1248481.1560521716698@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B797E42-D21D-4FDA-A2F3-B58376EE307E@yahoo.com> <1853208690.937125.1560432438252@mail.yahoo.com> <655F4447-0DD8-4D84-8C5E-3DD1DFFFBFC6@yahoo.com> <30FEE50D-927F-481E-AA0D-8FC3377B5EB7@gmail.com> <284195009.994453.1560467796869@mail.yahoo.com> <1671508476.1248481.1560521716698@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3170388F-BA32-4672-894B-A0CE32CBDC9E@yahoo.com> Jon, I am having two flood lights out front, a port & starboard flood & a spot light at the front. All 60W & 36V. The drivers for these are all in the hull. The front floods operate together but the others operate independently. Additionally I will have standard navigational lights & a light on a manipulator. I have dimming for the 4 floods, off the drivers in the hull. This would probably stop me using an external power & control box. If I put the drivers in an external electronics box it would have to be 1atm as my drivers each have 3 big electrolitic capacitors that could crush easily in an air compensated enclosure. I could run my pressure sensor, temperature sensor, lights without dimmers & compass from an external control box. I'm also planning an electric manipulator, & all its functions could be run with an external control box & data cable. Alan > On 15/06/2019, at 2:15 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, et al, > > To support multiple external sensors, my current thinking is to pass a single DB25 printer cable through the hull and terminate it within an air-compensated distribution box outside the hull. Currently I'm planning on having only three external sensors (compass, water temp, light detector) but want to have a quick way of adding or changing out sensors without worrying about more penetrations in the hull. Depending upon signal output most sensors are going to require three to four wires each which would provide a capability of supporting 6 to 8 sensors with this configuration. Adding a power supply within the distribution box would result in supporting 12-24 sensors. > > I've thought about doing the same for 12vdc lighting or any other 12v requirement external to the hull. Passing a single power cable to the distribution box and then using relays within that distribution box controlled by low voltage via the DB25 wiring. It seems like this is a good approach for adding/changing external fixtures whether lighting, relays, etc. I'm not sure there's a need for it though. So some questions for my psubber brethren... > > If you have a single light, do you ever wish you had more? > > If you have multiple lights, do you run them all at the same time and do you ever wish you could control them separately, ie. just the ones port side, just the ones starboard? > > Do you have lights to the side? Rear? If you control them independently, how? Separate penetrators for each? > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 13:57:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 17:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> Off the shelf LED lights.? Finding this frustrating, lots of crap available and by looking at hundreds of youtube reviews I've learned not to depend upon "lumen" claims.? Looks like you can't even trust many of the wattage consumed claims. I bought a harbor freight ROADSHOCK (see link) to poke at just because they were inexpensive.? Turns out they are very well made and look like they would be easy to oil compensate.? I like them.? However, they are not very bright at all, only burning 15 watts.? I'm tempted to get one of the light bar models that burns 47 watts but at $65 there are much cheaper alternatives on Ebay.? Only problem is, how easy will those others be to pressure compensate and keep a seal? Alec Smyth, if you are reading, what was your experience with those 4 inch LED work lights you pressure compensated a few years ago?? Those are still sold and are very inexpensive, and burn as much wattage as some of the more expensive light bars.? Did they hold up? 3 in. LED Flood Light | | | | | | | | | | | 3 in. LED Flood Light 965 Lumens 3 in. Flood Light | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 14:31:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 11:31:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights Message-ID: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 15:30:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 15:30:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, Those worked well, but are hard to oil fill without leaving residual air bubbles. Eventually some oil went missing. This is speculation, but perhaps it was forced out by thermal expansion because I didn?t have a proper bladder on them, and instead relied on the flexibility of the big front lens, which is made of thin plastic. It could also have been the seals around the cable, I?m not sure. In any case, my current ones, which are derived from Cliff?s 1-atm design, feel orders of magnitude more robust. For off-the-shelf, Hank?s oil filled light bar looks hard to beat, and I can attest it?s super bright. If you don?t have a lathe, that?s what I?d be looking at. Best, Alec Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 16, 2019, at 1:57 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Off the shelf LED lights. Finding this frustrating, lots of crap available and by looking at hundreds of youtube reviews I've learned not to depend upon "lumen" claims. Looks like you can't even trust many of the wattage consumed claims. > > I bought a harbor freight ROADSHOCK (see link) to poke at just because they were inexpensive. Turns out they are very well made and look like they would be easy to oil compensate. I like them. However, they are not very bright at all, only burning 15 watts. I'm tempted to get one of the light bar models that burns 47 watts but at $65 there are much cheaper alternatives on Ebay. Only problem is, how easy will those others be to pressure compensate and keep a seal? > > Alec Smyth, if you are reading, what was your experience with those 4 inch LED work lights you pressure compensated a few years ago? Those are still sold and are very inexpensive, and burn as much wattage as some of the more expensive light bars. Did they hold up? > > > 3 in. LED Flood Light > > 3 in. LED Flood Light > 965 Lumens 3 in. Flood Light > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 17:08:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 21:08:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I tested automotive LED head lights and they suck because they rely heavily on the reflective back. ?Hank On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 12:32:01 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,? ? ? ? ?What a bout LED automotive headlights ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 17:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Off the shelf LED lights.? Finding this frustrating, lots of crap available and by looking at hundreds of youtube reviews I've learned not to depend upon "lumen" claims.? Looks like you can't even trust many of the wattage consumed claims. I bought a harbor freight ROADSHOCK (see link) to poke at just because they were inexpensive.? Turns out they are very well made and look like they would be easy to oil compensate.? I like them.? However, they are not very bright at all, only burning 15 watts.? I'm tempted to get one of the light bar models that burns 47 watts but at $65 there are much cheaper alternatives on Ebay.? Only problem is, how easy will those others be to pressure compensate and keep a seal? Alec Smyth, if you are reading, what was your experience with those 4 inch LED work lights you pressure compensated a few years ago?? Those are still sold and are very inexpensive, and burn as much wattage as some of the more expensive light bars.? Did they hold up? 3 in. LED Flood Light | | | | | | | | | | | 3 in. LED Flood Light 965 Lumens 3 in. Flood Light | | | _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 17:15:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I have noticed looking at pictures from other subs that the spot light, lighting is spotty. ?There are dark areas in the images. ?This is an image taken a week ago at close to 300 feet in the darkest water I have ever been in. ?Notice how even the lighting is and the light goes beyond the camera view. ?You can make this light for a couple hundred bucks maybe 300 with hand tools. ?I have had this light for a long time with lots of dives even to 435 feet with zero issues. ?I tested one that I made for a friend to over 1,000 psi and another for Scott to over 3000 psi.Hank On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 11:57:45 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Off the shelf LED lights.? Finding this frustrating, lots of crap available and by looking at hundreds of youtube reviews I've learned not to depend upon "lumen" claims.? Looks like you can't even trust many of the wattage consumed claims. I bought a harbor freight ROADSHOCK (see link) to poke at just because they were inexpensive.? Turns out they are very well made and look like they would be easy to oil compensate.? I like them.? However, they are not very bright at all, only burning 15 watts.? I'm tempted to get one of the light bar models that burns 47 watts but at $65 there are much cheaper alternatives on Ebay.? Only problem is, how easy will those others be to pressure compensate and keep a seal? Alec Smyth, if you are reading, what was your experience with those 4 inch LED work lights you pressure compensated a few years ago?? Those are still sold and are very inexpensive, and burn as much wattage as some of the more expensive light bars.? Did they hold up? 3 in. LED Flood Light | | | | | | | | | | | 3 in. LED Flood Light 965 Lumens 3 in. Flood Light | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fullsizeoutput_2a.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 340337 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 18:21:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:21:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> Hi Jon, I sent this email out with 3 photos attached but must have been too big, so repeating it without photos. I spent an inordinate amount of time on this; initially Googling & ordering in lights I thought I could modify. One problem for me is that they have to go in sea water, so need to be marine or hard anodised. I was prepared to strip & hard anodise an existing product. In the end I built my own. I wanted a low profile light that could fit in to a recess & be dimmed. With the design I have, I can replace the front plate with a wider plate that has a second set of holes, for mounting in to a ferring. I put the led driver in the hull rather than the light for a number of reasons. 1/ The led puts a huge amount of heat out the back & that would put the electronics under stress. I have had to heat sink a component on my electronics without any additional heat coming from the light. 2/ I would have had to machine another compartment on the light & fit them. 3/ Easy to get at the electronics & test them. 4/ Less wires through the hull as I have dimming on my units. 5/ Won't be destroyed by water ingress in to the light. ( the led only costs $6-) The cave video I put up on Facebook doesn't make them look impressive as the black walls & black sand suck up the light. I think it's about 1:40 in where it Illuminates my friend that you get an idea. Maybe I could put a video profiling them up on Facebook if wanted! At the moment I need to order in some more components for additional lights. If there was interest I could find a local machine shop to make up a number of housings. I am guessing the housings would be more than NZ $100- each just for the machining. Parts & material for the rest of the light, maybe $100 + freight. Alternatives are Emile's lights & I think Cliff had his light housing made up in a machine shop, so perhaps with Cliff's cooperation they could make up some more! Alan > On 17/06/2019, at 9:15 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > I have noticed looking at pictures from other subs that the spot light, lighting is spotty. There are dark areas in the images. This is an image taken a week ago at close to 300 feet in the darkest water I have ever been in. Notice how even the lighting is and the light goes beyond the camera view. You can make this light for a couple hundred bucks maybe 300 with hand tools. I have had this light for a long time with lots of dives even to 435 feet with zero issues. I tested one that I made for a friend to over 1,000 psi and another for Scott to over 3000 psi. > Hank > > On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 11:57:45 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Off the shelf LED lights. Finding this frustrating, lots of crap available and by looking at hundreds of youtube reviews I've learned not to depend upon "lumen" claims. Looks like you can't even trust many of the wattage consumed claims. > > I bought a harbor freight ROADSHOCK (see link) to poke at just because they were inexpensive. Turns out they are very well made and look like they would be easy to oil compensate. I like them. However, they are not very bright at all, only burning 15 watts. I'm tempted to get one of the light bar models that burns 47 watts but at $65 there are much cheaper alternatives on Ebay. Only problem is, how easy will those others be to pressure compensate and keep a seal? > > Alec Smyth, if you are reading, what was your experience with those 4 inch LED work lights you pressure compensated a few years ago? Those are still sold and are very inexpensive, and burn as much wattage as some of the more expensive light bars. Did they hold up? > > > 3 in. LED Flood Light > > 3 in. LED Flood Light > 965 Lumens 3 in. Flood Light > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1526165 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 18:23:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:23:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2101124100.2001652.1560723830501@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, the auto versions look like they would be much more difficult to convert.? They typically are not IP67 or IP68 to start off with, and don't have to be since they are pretty well protected on the back end by the car body.? They also tend to have a "road" beam pattern not to blind oncoming cars which just isn't the kind of pattern that we want underwater.? The off-road versions are just easier as a starting point to convert because they are fully enclosed and at least IP67 rated.? Unfortunately, given the seal used to make them water resistant, they might as well not have one.? That's at least where the harbor freight units shined.? The seal is thick and u-shaped to fit over a "land" or bead on the housing, and they are advertised as "submersible" rather than just water resistant.? I found a video of a guy that lowered them into a tank fully submersed and left them for 24 hours with no water ingress.? That's a good starting point except their not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch. Hank, I think most all off-the-shelf LED "lights" depend upon some kind of reflector to get the lumen output up to a respectable amount, and/or the beam pattern desired.? Most of the inexpensive units are using 3-5 watt LED's and then with some "artistic licensing" advertising them with outrageous specs in both lumen's and wattage.? Your modified design is essentially omni-directional except on the other side of the circuit board and must be using some large output LED's to have that much light without a reflector. So tell us, what brand did you buy for the conversion?? Size, etc.? I noticed on these ROADSHOCK versions, the PCB seems to be glued to the housing so I don't think I could removed it without damaging it.? On yours the PCB must just slide out?? Kept in the original housing by clips or screws?? What size tube did you have to purchase? Jon On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 05:10:23 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,I tested automotive LED head lights and they suck because they rely heavily on the reflective back. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 18:41:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:41:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, Sounds like we have similar experiences.? While it's great that you can get anything you want on the internet and delivered right to your door, trying to get the right thing by looking solely at pictures really can make it hit or miss. I love the Bridgelux design that Cliff came up with, just not practical for me since I don't have the tooling machines to fabricate them.? For my purposes, I'd want 5-6 lights and so having them custom made turns out to be some serious money. I'm interested in any photos/film you have.? Either post on FB or resize to fit on the mailing list.? If you want to send to me privately I'll resize them and post them on the list here. Jon On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 06:26:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon,I sent this email out with 3 photos attached but must have been too big,so repeating it without photos.I spent an inordinate amount of time on this; initially Googling & ordering in?lights I thought I could modify.One problem for me is that they have to go in sea water, so need to be marine?or hard anodised. I was prepared to strip & hard anodise an existing product.In the end I built my own.?I wanted a low profile light that could fit in to a recess & be dimmed.With the design I have, I can replace the front plate with a wider plate that hasa second set of holes, for mounting in to a ferring. ?I put the led driver in the hull rather than the light for a number of reasons.1/ The led puts a huge amount of heat out the back & that would put theelectronics under stress. I have had to heat sink a component on my electronicswithout any additional heat coming from the light.2/ I would have had to machine another compartment on the light & fit them.3/ Easy to get at the electronics & test them.4/ Less wires through the hull as I have dimming on my units.5/ Won't be destroyed by water ingress in to the light. ( the led only costs $6-)The cave video I put up on Facebook doesn't make them look impressive asthe black walls & black sand suck up the light. I think it's about 1:40 in where itIlluminates my friend that you get an idea. Maybe I could put a video profiling?them up?on Facebook if wanted!At the moment I need to order in some more components for additional lights.If there was interest I could find a local machine shop to make up a number ofhousings. I am guessing the housings would be more than NZ $100- each justfor the machining. Parts & material for the rest of the light, maybe $100 +freight.Alternatives are Emile's lights & I think Cliff had his light housing made upin a machine shop, so perhaps with Cliff's cooperation they could make upsome more!Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:09:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:09:26 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, Will do a video tonight. It was such a pain machining the housing on a small lathe with not a great deal of experience, that I am not wanting to make up a lot of them myself. I have done the hard work in prototyping them though. Another thing I forgot to mention is that any off the shelf unit that you may oil compensate will probably have big electrolitic capacitors in them. You may know that these have slits in the top of them that create a weak point so if they blow they blow out the top. I am not sure that they put these slits in in the old days, but this makes them particularly weak under pressure. BTW I tested my lights out to 1000psi. Cheers Alan > On 17/06/2019, at 10:41 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Sounds like we have similar experiences. While it's great that you can get anything you want on the internet and delivered right to your door, trying to get the right thing by looking solely at pictures really can make it hit or miss. > > I love the Bridgelux design that Cliff came up with, just not practical for me since I don't have the tooling machines to fabricate them. For my purposes, I'd want 5-6 lights and so having them custom made turns out to be some serious money. > > I'm interested in any photos/film you have. Either post on FB or resize to fit on the mailing list. If you want to send to me privately I'll resize them and post them on the list here. > > Jon > > > On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 06:26:03 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, > I sent this email out with 3 photos attached but must have been too big, > so repeating it without photos. > I spent an inordinate amount of time on this; initially Googling & ordering in > lights I thought I could modify. > One problem for me is that they have to go in sea water, so need to be marine > or hard anodised. I was prepared to strip & hard anodise an existing product. > In the end I built my own. > I wanted a low profile light that could fit in to a recess & be dimmed. > With the design I have, I can replace the front plate with a wider plate that has > a second set of holes, for mounting in to a ferring. > I put the led driver in the hull rather than the light for a number of reasons. > 1/ The led puts a huge amount of heat out the back & that would put the > electronics under stress. I have had to heat sink a component on my electronics > without any additional heat coming from the light. > 2/ I would have had to machine another compartment on the light & fit them. > 3/ Easy to get at the electronics & test them. > 4/ Less wires through the hull as I have dimming on my units. > 5/ Won't be destroyed by water ingress in to the light. ( the led only costs $6-) > The cave video I put up on Facebook doesn't make them look impressive as > the black walls & black sand suck up the light. I think it's about 1:40 in where it > Illuminates my friend that you get an idea. Maybe I could put a video profiling > them up on Facebook if wanted! > At the moment I need to order in some more components for additional lights. > If there was interest I could find a local machine shop to make up a number of > housings. I am guessing the housings would be more than NZ $100- each just > for the machining. Parts & material for the rest of the light, maybe $100 + > freight. > Alternatives are Emile's lights & I think Cliff had his light housing made up > in a machine shop, so perhaps with Cliff's cooperation they could make up > some more! > Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:17:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 23:17:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1747940529.2006307.1560727021170@mail.yahoo.com> I didn't see any big caps in the ROADSHOCK unit.? I'm going to tear it apart again under video scrutiny and post it online so you all can see it. Jon On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 7:11:42 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,Will do a video tonight.It was such a pain machining the housing on a small lathe with not a greatdeal of experience, that I am not wanting to make up a lot of them myself.I have done the hard work in prototyping them though.Another thing I forgot to mention is that any off the shelf unit that you mayoil compensate will probably have big electrolitic capacitors in them.You may know that these have slits in the top of them that create a weak pointso if they blow they blow out the top. I am not sure that they put these slits in?in the old days, but this makes them particularly weak under pressure.BTW I tested my lights out to 1000psi.Cheers Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:18:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 23:18:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1797704747.2005513.1560727120856@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, One other thing...what are voltage are you using for your lights?? I think the Bridgelux is 36vdc...I'm going to be running my lights off of 12vdc. Jon On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 7:11:42 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,Will do a video tonight.It was such a pain machining the housing on a small lathe with not a greatdeal of experience, that I am not wanting to make up a lot of them myself.I have done the hard work in prototyping them though.Another thing I forgot to mention is that any off the shelf unit that you mayoil compensate will probably have big electrolitic capacitors in them.You may know that these have slits in the top of them that create a weak pointso if they blow they blow out the top. I am not sure that they put these slits in?in the old days, but this makes them particularly weak under pressure.BTW I tested my lights out to 1000psi.Cheers Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:19:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 23:19:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <2101124100.2001652.1560723830501@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> <2101124100.2001652.1560723830501@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <889594609.2020967.1560727177212@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, Another question for you, how many amps are you pulling with your LED light bar?? How many volts are you driving it with? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:45:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:45:35 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <1797704747.2005513.1560727120856@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1595510483.1924563.1560707842085@mail.yahoo.com> <1559251987.2271520.1560719729933@mail.yahoo.com> <110CE538-4277-43AB-ABAC-2E1FAF2A2BF8@yahoo.com> <1495400830.1976872.1560724905808@mail.yahoo.com> <1797704747.2005513.1560727120856@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8C08268B-2447-42E4-9D5A-C7E2979927C0@yahoo.com> Jon, I had the driver designed to run off 12-54V. It is a buck / boost ( step up, step down) unit with constant current & constant voltage. The one thing I don't like about it is that failure mode is on, & on at about 150W. If the wires to the potentiometer break the lights go on full. With a main switch on the battery input leads this won't be a problem. The led itself runs off 36V. A lot of those high powered LEDs are 32-36V. If you have a 36V battery bank I would use that voltage otherwise you will be drawing 3 times the amps off 12V. Not a big deal though. Alan > On 17/06/2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > One other thing...what are voltage are you using for your lights? I think the Bridgelux is 36vdc...I'm going to be running my lights off of 12vdc. > > Jon > > > On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 7:11:42 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > Will do a video tonight. > It was such a pain machining the housing on a small lathe with not a great > deal of experience, that I am not wanting to make up a lot of them myself. > I have done the hard work in prototyping them though. > Another thing I forgot to mention is that any off the shelf unit that you may > oil compensate will probably have big electrolitic capacitors in them. > You may know that these have slits in the top of them that create a weak point > so if they blow they blow out the top. I am not sure that they put these slits in > in the old days, but this makes them particularly weak under pressure. > BTW I tested my lights out to 1000psi. > Cheers Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 16 19:56:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 23:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <889594609.2020967.1560727177212@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> <2101124100.2001652.1560723830501@mail.yahoo.com> <889594609.2020967.1560727177212@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <831112999.2267654.1560729378735@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,My circuit board just slid out of the housing and I slid it into a 2 inch ID tube. ?I can run of 12 or 24 or 36 and I run off 24 and 240 WHank On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 5:19:53 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Another question for you, how many amps are you pulling with your LED light bar?? How many volts are you driving it with? Jon_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 17 01:06:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 17:06:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: <831112999.2267654.1560729378735@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190616113146.43D354A5@m0117459.ppops.net> <1856311958.2227757.1560719300912@mail.yahoo.com> <2101124100.2001652.1560723830501@mail.yahoo.com> <889594609.2020967.1560727177212@mail.yahoo.com> <831112999.2267654.1560729378735@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D3415F9-B5CD-40EC-9511-061A75261DEE@yahoo.com> Here is the $2- alternative. ( see photos) You can run LEDs straight off a power source as long as it is in the right range & below a certain voltage. This led is rated 32-36V. It starts to light up dimly at 24V & is bright enough at 30V. Also keeps a lot cooler running it at a lower voltage. In the two pictures I have this an 80W led running in the kitchen sink off a 32V bench top power supply. You can see quite a bit of electrolysis happening with it shorting through the water. No heat sink is needed in water but they wouldn't last long running out of it. If you coated the terminals & metal backing plate with resin it may stop the electrolysis & corrosion. I have pressure tested these emitters as are to 1000 psi. Alan > On 17/06/2019, at 11:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, > My circuit board just slid out of the housing and I slid it into a 2 inch ID tube. I can run of 12 or 24 or 36 and I run off 24 and 240 W > Hank > > On Sunday, June 16, 2019, 5:19:53 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > > Another question for you, how many amps are you pulling with your LED light bar? How many volts are you driving it with? > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 345514 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 252951 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 17 21:41:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:41:01 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights Message-ID: Vid of my new forward lights and pics. Taken apart, drilled and tapped for brass fitting. will be connected with vinyl tubing via a brass T and then plugged off, filled with silicone oil. Slightly smaller versions will point port and starboard. https://www.instagram.com/p/By1S-NqhOxo/?igshid=wd2ycxam6d7t https://www.instagram.com/p/By1S6DdBg9m/?igshid=138xe1gusntb3 Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 18 07:38:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:38:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] LED lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423305076.2737565.1560857939315@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, which brand/model did you purchase?? Noticed that you also used silicone around the edges of the lens.? How thick was the lens? On Monday, June 17, 2019, 09:43:20 PM EDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Vid of my new forward lights and pics. Taken apart, drilled and tapped for brass fitting. will be connected with vinyl tubing via a brass T and then plugged off, filled with silicone oil. Slightly smaller versions will point port and starboard. https://www.instagram.com/p/By1S-NqhOxo/?igshid=wd2ycxam6d7t https://www.instagram.com/p/By1S6DdBg9m/?igshid=138xe1gusntb3 Brian and the good submarine boat Harold. Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 20 22:30:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 19:30:36 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190620193036.43D34D37@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: holes.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38550 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: inside1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41441 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: inside2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 21 13:47:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190620193036.43D34D37@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190620193036.43D34D37@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2012062503.167342.1561139276427@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 21 14:31:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 11:31:41 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190621113141.43D1E120@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 21 20:04:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 00:04:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190621113141.43D1E120@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190621113141.43D1E120@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1878907087.300753.1561161864441@mail.yahoo.com> What is it ? Please post. On Friday, June 21, 2019, 6:33:48 PM GMT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yeah,? the stuff I'm getting is suppose to be good for 580 psi? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 00:14:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:14:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190621211432.43D0EB1D@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 02:33:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:33:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress Message-ID: Hi Guys, working today on the rear exoskeleton of the SeaQuestor, shaping the foam and dry fitting the vectored thrusters. Tomorrow i will be glueing the aft four pieces of foam into 1 block, and then final shaping prior to starting the first layer of fiberglass. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image3250280700732343367.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 343293 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image7687201515445892335.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 305463 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image636109536416137420.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 397228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 06:13:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 10:13:15 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring Message-ID: Likely this has been covered in the past, but ... Upgrading to a Chirp style sonar. Any suggestions/experience in signal isolation as the wiring goes through the hull? Everything I've found on cutting and altering the transducer wiring recommends covering with splice with foil to maintain the isolating field around the signal. How does one do that in our applications? Or does it matter? Brian Harold the Submarine Maude the Porte Bote Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 07:35:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:35:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1174103224.423406.1561203333136@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I did a simple splice with shrink tube and it works good. ?I have found the accuracy is off with long distances but very good up close.Hank On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 4:13:35 AM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Likely this has been covered in the past, but ... Upgrading to a Chirp style sonar. Any suggestions/experience in signal isolation as the wiring goes through the hull? Everything I've found on cutting and altering the transducer wiring recommends covering with splice with foil to maintain the isolating field around the signal. How does one do that in our applications?? Or does it matter? Brian Harold the Submarine Maude the Porte Bote Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 07:41:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:41:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1212520671.421306.1561203666684@mail.yahoo.com> David,Are you making a plug or will you just finish the fibreglass that goes over the styrofoam? ?What are you putting over the foam to protect it?Hank On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 12:34:14 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, working today on the rear exoskeleton of the SeaQuestor, shaping the foam and dry fitting the vectored thrusters.? Tomorrow i will be glueing the aft four pieces of foam into 1 block, and then final shaping prior to starting the first layer of fiberglass.?David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 08:08:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:08:16 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, There are surely more sophisticated ways to do it, but my approach was to use a two conductor through-hull with the signal through one conductor and the shield through the other. It works fine, although my sounder is pretty basic. Best, Alec On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 6:14 AM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Likely this has been covered in the past, but ... > > Upgrading to a Chirp style sonar. Any suggestions/experience in signal > isolation as the wiring goes through the hull? Everything I've found on > cutting and altering the transducer wiring recommends covering with splice > with foil to maintain the isolating field around the signal. How does one > do that in our applications? Or does it matter? > > Brian > Harold the Submarine > Maude the Porte Bote > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 09:05:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 13:05:45 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring Message-ID: Alec, that's how I ran my prior transducers, but ... As I haven't yet cut through the wiring I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's more than the usual two, hence the question. I'm debating attempting the simplest approach: tie a tight knot in the cable and run it through a 90? elbow, the part facing out being at least 1/2" larger than the thru hull. I have an extra 1/4" NPT I could use. Plug the narrow end with epoxy, and top the large end with 2 part hard rubber. I know Mark does this with his subs, but he dives shallower than I'll be going. Hmm ... or maybe a gland tightened around the cable, same deal as above, but embedded the gland base in the 2 part hard rubber. Or maybe a stainless cap tapped for the gland base, and fill with hard rubber from the other end. I used to make canister dive light heads that way, using turned down D cell mag light heads with LED replacement bulbs. Hmm ... I can shorten internally and splice correctly. Reflections? Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 10:09:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 07:09:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: <1212520671.421306.1561203666684@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1212520671.421306.1561203666684@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, my plan is to coat the foam with a thin layer of glass with epoxy to create a hard shell. At that point i will either fair the surface to make a plug, or coat the epoxy with foil and then cast a part. It all depends on my fiberglass abilities and the build schedule. My domes won't be finished now till September at the earliest, so I've got some time to work thru the process. David On Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 4:41 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > Are you making a plug or will you just finish the fibreglass that goes > over the styrofoam? What are you putting over the foam to protect it? > Hank > > On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 12:34:14 AM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, working today on the rear exoskeleton of the SeaQuestor, shaping > the foam and dry fitting the vectored thrusters. Tomorrow i will be > glueing the aft four pieces of foam into 1 block, and then final shaping > prior to starting the first layer of fiberglass. > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 13:56:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 17:56:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress In-Reply-To: References: <1212520671.421306.1561203666684@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <357772409.488813.1561226191830@mail.yahoo.com> David,I do a lot of fibreglass work, in fact I just made a new body for E3000. ?I would recommend a test first to ensure the foam stands up. ?I look forward to your progress photo'sHank On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 8:09:59 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, my plan is to coat the foam with a thin layer of glass with epoxy to create a hard shell.? At that point i will either fair the surface to make a plug,? or coat the epoxy with foil and then cast a part. It all depends on my fiberglass abilities and the build schedule.? My domes won't be finished now till September at the earliest, so I've got some time to work thru the process.David On Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 4:41 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,Are you making a plug or will you just finish the fibreglass that goes over the styrofoam?? What are you putting over the foam to protect it?Hank On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 12:34:14 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, working today on the rear exoskeleton of the SeaQuestor, shaping the foam and dry fitting the vectored thrusters.? Tomorrow i will be glueing the aft four pieces of foam into 1 block, and then final shaping prior to starting the first layer of fiberglass.?David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 22 17:21:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 09:21:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3124CC95-5B35-4D44-99AA-C92549344E3F@yahoo.com> Brian, I remember discussing this in a previous thread, & Sean endorsing Alec's method of connecting the shield with a wire in the through hull. Perhaps you could find out from the manufacturer what shielded cable they use. Both Emile & Carsten are using Blue globe cable glands, but not sure whether they are using them on shielded cable. They put one Blue globe outside the hull & another inside. I remember Emile testing a cable in a blue globe to 3000psi before the cable started extruding through. Alan > On 23/06/2019, at 1:05 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, that's how I ran my prior transducers, but ... > > As I haven't yet cut through the wiring I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's more than the usual two, hence the question. I'm debating attempting the simplest approach: tie a tight knot in the cable and run it through a 90? elbow, the part facing out being at least 1/2" larger than the thru hull. I have an extra 1/4" NPT I could use. Plug the narrow end with epoxy, and top the large end with 2 part hard rubber. I know Mark does this with his subs, but he dives shallower than I'll be going. > > Hmm ... or maybe a gland tightened around the cable, same deal as above, but embedded the gland base in the 2 part hard rubber. Or maybe a stainless cap tapped for the gland base, and fill with hard rubber from the other end. I used to make canister dive light heads that way, using turned down D cell mag light heads with LED replacement bulbs. Hmm ... > > I can shorten internally and splice correctly. > > Reflections? > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 07:02:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:02:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) References: <25604905.902252.1561374151422.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 07:54:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:54:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> References: <25604905.902252.1561374151422.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1631579813.1025267.1561377252749@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Pete,Yes it is worth it, I will be surprised if its still available. ?It might be in great shape and can make lots of parts. ?It will be good to learn the basics at the least. ?I would grab it if it were close to me!Hank On Monday, June 24, 2019, 5:02:54 AM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 07:59:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:59:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> References: <25604905.902252.1561374151422.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1237435230.1034510.1561377570805@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Pete,Hmmm, I just had another look with a full screen picture. ?It is pretty limited with no chuck. ?I would still take it but it is likely not worth it for you.Hank On Monday, June 24, 2019, 5:02:54 AM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 14:25:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:25:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used?? There are multiple types listed on their web site.2) How much "working time" did you have with the product?3) How long before it dried to touch?? Cured? It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as acceptable for "immersion" in salt water.? I can't help but wonder what the difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered.? The place I am having sandblast the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it myself.? One thing, I don't care about the finish.? I actually prefer Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 15:04:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:04:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, I've always used "mill white" Macropoxy 646. I like that it goes straight onto bare metal and has really good coverage. Its thick, appropriate for application with a roller. This makes it really easy to patch. I haven't measured the work or cure times, but they're generous - I'd say when you mix it up, you probably have at least an hour to apply, so it's never been an issue because I mix a bit at a time. It dries to the touch in probably 4-8 hours. Negatives include yellowing in sunlight and susceptibility to scratching. With Snoopy, I just spray painted the CT dayglo orange over the Macropoxy, but the sun would turn it a brick-like color pretty quick. On Shackleton, the CT was painted in Macropoxy as well but then top-coated in a less bright orange by the guy who did the sandblasting. Although it's not as bright as the dayglo was, I've noticed this top-coat has not dulled at all and is MUCH less susceptible to scratching. It has made me think that in the future, the ideal would be to paint the sub in Macropoxy and then top-coat in something harder. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what paint I have on that CT. Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 2:26 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with > Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. > > 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used? There are multiple > types listed on their web site. > 2) How much "working time" did you have with the product? > 3) How long before it dried to touch? Cured? > > It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as > acceptable for "immersion" in salt water. I can't help but wonder what the > difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. > > I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand > painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered. The place I am having sandblast > the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it > myself. One thing, I don't care about the finish. I actually prefer > Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because > repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). > > Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 15:30:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 07:30:41 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, I did a quick Google on shielded cables & I can't see that they are of any advantage in our situation. Unless you are running them next to another cable. Perhaps more of an advantage inside the hull. Maybe with saltwater being a conductive medium there is more chance of Electrical interference, but I don't know. Anyone got any thoughts on this? Alan > On 23/06/2019, at 1:05 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec, that's how I ran my prior transducers, but ... > > As I haven't yet cut through the wiring I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's more than the usual two, hence the question. I'm debating attempting the simplest approach: tie a tight knot in the cable and run it through a 90? elbow, the part facing out being at least 1/2" larger than the thru hull. I have an extra 1/4" NPT I could use. Plug the narrow end with epoxy, and top the large end with 2 part hard rubber. I know Mark does this with his subs, but he dives shallower than I'll be going. > > Hmm ... or maybe a gland tightened around the cable, same deal as above, but embedded the gland base in the 2 part hard rubber. Or maybe a stainless cap tapped for the gland base, and fill with hard rubber from the other end. I used to make canister dive light heads that way, using turned down D cell mag light heads with LED replacement bulbs. Hmm ... > > I can shorten internally and splice correctly. > > Reflections? > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 15:45:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:45:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar thru hull wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1357473365.1189806.1561405500898@mail.yahoo.com> I think they can't hurt.? The idea is to supply a less resistive path to ground for any inductive noise that might be picked up either through motors or other cables.? Shields have more surface area and less resistance than the signal wire so the inducted noise will take that path rather than the signal wire.? The proper method is to connect the shield separately to a dedicated pin that ultimately ends up on ground of the power supply.? So, as has been suggested by others...if the transducer has three wires, get a four pin connector and apply shield to the fourth pin and then terminate to your battery ground somewhere inside the hull. Jon On Monday, June 24, 2019, 03:32:39 PM EDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,I did a quick Google on shielded cables & I can't see that they are ofany advantage in our situation. Unless you are running them next toanother cable. Perhaps more of an advantage inside the hull.Maybe with saltwater being a conductive medium there is more chance ofElectrical interference, but I don't know.Anyone got any thoughts on this?Alan On 23/06/2019, at 1:05 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, that's how I ran my prior transducers, but ... As I haven't yet cut through the wiring I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's more than the usual two, hence the question. I'm debating attempting the simplest approach: tie a tight knot in the cable and run it through a 90? elbow, the part facing out being at least 1/2" larger than the thru hull.? I have an extra 1/4" NPT I could use.? Plug the narrow end with epoxy, and top the large end with 2 part hard rubber.? I know Mark does this with his subs, but he dives shallower than I'll be going. Hmm ... or maybe a gland tightened around the cable, same deal as above, but embedded the gland base in the 2 part hard rubber. Or maybe a stainless cap tapped for the gland base, and fill with hard rubber from the other end. I used to make canister dive light heads that way, using turned down D cell mag light heads with LED replacement bulbs. Hmm ... I can shorten internally and splice correctly. Reflections? Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 15:45:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:45:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <765715766.1211915.1561405537693@mail.yahoo.com> What about coverage?? Did you require a gallon?? Two gallons? On Monday, June 24, 2019, 03:06:52 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Jon, I've always used "mill white" Macropoxy 646. I like that it goes straight onto bare metal and has really good coverage. Its thick, appropriate for application with a roller. This makes it really easy to patch. I haven't measured the work or cure times, but they're generous - I'd say when you mix it up, you probably have at least an hour to apply, so it's never been an issue because I mix a bit at a time. It dries to the touch in probably 4-8 hours.? Negatives include yellowing in sunlight and susceptibility to scratching. With Snoopy, I just spray painted the CT dayglo orange over the Macropoxy, but the sun would turn it a brick-like color pretty quick. On Shackleton, the CT was painted in Macropoxy as well but then top-coated in a less bright orange by the guy who did the sandblasting. Although it's not as bright as the dayglo was, I've noticed this top-coat has not dulled at all and is MUCH less susceptible to scratching. It has made me think that in the future, the ideal would be to paint the sub in Macropoxy and then top-coat in something harder. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what paint I have on that CT.? Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 2:26 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used?? There are multiple types listed on their web site.2) How much "working time" did you have with the product?3) How long before it dried to touch?? Cured? It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as acceptable for "immersion" in salt water.? I can't help but wonder what the difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered.? The place I am having sandblast the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it myself.? One thing, I don't care about the finish.? I actually prefer Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 16:08:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:08:24 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: <765715766.1211915.1561405537693@mail.yahoo.com> References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> <765715766.1211915.1561405537693@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It comes in one gallon cans, but since there's parts A and B to mix up, that means the minimum purchase is two gallons. That'll be plenty to paint the whole boat. I do about 3-4 coats. Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 3:46 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > What about coverage? Did you require a gallon? Two gallons? > > > > On Monday, June 24, 2019, 03:06:52 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > I've always used "mill white" Macropoxy 646. I like that it goes straight > onto bare metal and has really good coverage. Its thick, appropriate for > application with a roller. This makes it really easy to patch. I haven't > measured the work or cure times, but they're generous - I'd say when you > mix it up, you probably have at least an hour to apply, so it's never been > an issue because I mix a bit at a time. It dries to the touch in probably > 4-8 hours. > > Negatives include yellowing in sunlight and susceptibility to scratching. > With Snoopy, I just spray painted the CT dayglo orange over the Macropoxy, > but the sun would turn it a brick-like color pretty quick. On Shackleton, > the CT was painted in Macropoxy as well but then top-coated in a less > bright orange by the guy who did the sandblasting. Although it's not as > bright as the dayglo was, I've noticed this top-coat has not dulled at all > and is MUCH less susceptible to scratching. It has made me think that in > the future, the ideal would be to paint the sub in Macropoxy and then > top-coat in something harder. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what > paint I have on that CT. > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 2:26 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with > Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. > > 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used? There are multiple > types listed on their web site. > 2) How much "working time" did you have with the product? > 3) How long before it dried to touch? Cured? > > It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as > acceptable for "immersion" in salt water. I can't help but wonder what the > difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. > > I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand > painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered. The place I am having sandblast > the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it > myself. One thing, I don't care about the finish. I actually prefer > Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because > repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). > > Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 17:46:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <1237435230.1034510.1561377570805@mail.yahoo.com> References: <25604905.902252.1561374151422.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <25604905.902252.1561374151422@mail.yahoo.com> <1237435230.1034510.1561377570805@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <651877057.1285002.1561412805630@mail.yahoo.com> Do you think a chuck could be added ? On Monday, June 24, 2019, 12:01:28 PM GMT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete,Hmmm, I just had another look with a full screen picture. ?It is pretty limited with no chuck. ?I would still take it but it is likely not worth it for you.Hank On Monday, June 24, 2019, 5:02:54 AM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 17:47:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 21:47:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1496606677.1232868.1561412866959@mail.yahoo.com> What about adding glass beads to make the paint reflective ? On Monday, June 24, 2019, 6:27:21 PM GMT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used?? There are multiple types listed on their web site.2) How much "working time" did you have with the product?3) How long before it dried to touch?? Cured? It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as acceptable for "immersion" in salt water.? I can't help but wonder what the difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered.? The place I am having sandblast the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it myself.? One thing, I don't care about the finish.? I actually prefer Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 19:12:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190624161246.43D3D5D8@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 19:53:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:53:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: <1496606677.1232868.1561412866959@mail.yahoo.com> References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> <1496606677.1232868.1561412866959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A ?bedazzled? submarine? :) Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > What about adding glass beads to make the paint reflective ? > > > On Monday, June 24, 2019, 6:27:21 PM GMT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. > > 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used? There are multiple types listed on their web site. > 2) How much "working time" did you have with the product? > 3) How long before it dried to touch? Cured? > > It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as acceptable for "immersion" in salt water. I can't help but wonder what the difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. > > I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered. The place I am having sandblast the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it myself. One thing, I don't care about the finish. I actually prefer Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). > > Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 24 20:13:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 00:13:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: References: <975032349.1154881.1561400713093.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <975032349.1154881.1561400713093@mail.yahoo.com> <1496606677.1232868.1561412866959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1854370825.1329207.1561421620450@mail.yahoo.com> I don't know about glass beads Pete, but they do make a Gray Flake epoxy paint.? I think Red flake would look nicer, but that's just me. On Monday, June 24, 2019, 07:55:43 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A ?bedazzled? submarine?? :) Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: What about adding glass beads to make the paint reflective ? On Monday, June 24, 2019, 6:27:21 PM GMT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec Smyth...can you give us some more details on your experience with Sherwin Williams paint and your hull painting experience. 1) Do you recall which Macropoxy product you used?? There are multiple types listed on their web site.2) How much "working time" did you have with the product?3) How long before it dried to touch?? Cured? It looks like white and black colors are the only ones they list as acceptable for "immersion" in salt water.? I can't help but wonder what the difference is between the same product in yellow or red options. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet since I may be limited to hand painting the 600 in my yard, uncovered.? The place I am having sandblast the sub does not paint so I either have to find some other place or do it myself.? One thing, I don't care about the finish.? I actually prefer Alec's method of hand rolling with "orange-peel" results simply because repairs of scratches and dings would blend better (I think). Anyway....rambling here and looking for thoughts from the group. Jon _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 02:31:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 23:31:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Message-ID: <1157871749.21861.1561444308127@wamui-cinderella.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 06:52:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 10:52:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <1157871749.21861.1561444308127@wamui-cinderella.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1157871749.21861.1561444308127@wamui-cinderella.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1442242405.1496897.1561459939329@mail.yahoo.com> West Saint Paul MN 55118 On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 6:33:58 AM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete, I think getting a lathe to learn the basics on is a good idea, I find nothing beats having your own (verse taking courses with limited access to a lathe, or getting a membership to some shared workshop with a lathe). For learning the basics, I picked up a a used Central Machinery 9x20 (cheap and crappy enough you won't cry too much if you kill it, plus it has a plastic gear that is easy to replace in cases of crashing - so I've not crashed it)and spent time playing around with different cuts, making things (small pistons are a great practice things) and such (swapping gears, doing different threading etc.).? It's not a great lathe, but it does the job, and even thoughI now have a bigger lathe, I still use the 9x20 (I keep meaning to sell it so I can fit more machines into my workshop). A few years later I bought a 1943 Smith Drum sliding bed lathe, this thing has separate ways for powering the entire bed out a bit, and can turn up to 28" in diameter (great for hatches) with the bed extended.? I spent a lot of time cleaning it and rebuilding bits,getting a VFD wired for it, putting on a modern tool post, and a lot more time tracking down the original manuals for it (eventually found a copy in a veterans museum and paid a researcher to scan it for me). I feel getting a 1905 lathe is going to be taking on a project in itself, with a lot of investment required before you get to the learn the basics part.? (I'm still trying to track down parts from the Smith Drum Lathe).? Maybe see if you can find the manual for it, and see if you can figure out from the manual what type of threading (or other attachment system) the chuck uses, also how hard is it to get parts (may be a thriving parts business on ebay, or maybe you'll be look high and low for random things). The vintagemachinery.org website has tonnes of the Browne & Sharp manuals/catalogs, so you're may be in luck there:http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2185&tab=3 Oh, checking out this catalog from 1904, and may be that's not a lathe, but a screw cutting machine (see page 144):http//vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3713In fact, I didn't see any machines advertised as Lathes, nor do I see any manuals for Lathes by Browne & Sharp.? I don't know enough about their screw cutting machines to know if they can operate as proper Lathes.? I don't see a cross slide, and not sure if the turret swings out at all. I personally would give it a miss and look for something else given your goal is learning lathe basics, but I also feel a pull from old machine tools. Where are you located?? I sometimes have leads all over the country for lathes (like I said, I'm still looking for bit for mine). Good luck!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 24, 2019 4:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 12:28:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:28:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Message-ID: <1485601103.3869.1561480089791@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 16:21:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 20:21:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting Message-ID: A member of my congregation is a regional sales rep for Sherwin Williams. I asked her about marine paints and she sent me the following. Given Harold is already painted, I'll likely clean off the rusty spots, coat with POR15 and then paint with the Sherloxane 800 in the Safety Yellow. "Hi Brian. I just contacted our marine technical manager? Only the Macropoxy 646 in mill white or black are acceptable for immersion use. It will act as a suitable primer, then should be topcoated with Sherloxane 800, which comes in safety yellow (I hope that?s very close to Harold?s color). What is you email? I will send you the data sheets." Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 17:30:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <1485601103.3869.1561480089791@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1485601103.3869.1561480089791@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <194871596.1828915.1561498240933@mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, I'm watching that. On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 4:30:44 PM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Something like this would be great, although it looks like it may be taken (if the sale falls through, would be nice to be next in line):https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/d/champlin-metal-lathe-6-sale-pending/6919139506.html Send me an email irox(at)ix.netcom.com and let you know off list if I see anything in your area. Cheers!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 25, 2019 3:52 AM To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) West Saint Paul MN 55118 On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 6:33:58 AM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete, I think getting a lathe to learn the basics on is a good idea, I find nothing beats having your own (verse taking courses with limited access to a lathe, or getting a membership to some shared workshop with a lathe). For learning the basics, I picked up a a used Central Machinery 9x20 (cheap and crappy enough you won't cry too much if you kill it, plus it has a plastic gear that is easy to replace in cases of crashing - so I've not crashed it)and spent time playing around with different cuts, making things (small pistons are a great practice things) and such (swapping gears, doing different threading etc.).? It's not a great lathe, but it does the job, and even thoughI now have a bigger lathe, I still use the 9x20 (I keep meaning to sell it so I can fit more machines into my workshop). A few years later I bought a 1943 Smith Drum sliding bed lathe, this thing has separate ways for powering the entire bed out a bit, and can turn up to 28" in diameter (great for hatches) with the bed extended.? I spent a lot of time cleaning it and rebuilding bits,getting a VFD wired for it, putting on a modern tool post, and a lot more time tracking down the original manuals for it (eventually found a copy in a veterans museum and paid a researcher to scan it for me). I feel getting a 1905 lathe is going to be taking on a project in itself, with a lot of investment required before you get to the learn the basics part.? (I'm still trying to track down parts from the Smith Drum Lathe).? Maybe see if you can find the manual for it, and see if you can figure out from the manual what type of threading (or other attachment system) the chuck uses, also how hard is it to get parts (may be a thriving parts business on ebay, or maybe you'll be look high and low for random things). The vintagemachinery.org website has tonnes of the Browne & Sharp manuals/catalogs, so you're may be in luck there:http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2185&tab=3 Oh, checking out this catalog from 1904, and may be that's not a lathe, but a screw cutting machine (see page 144):http//vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3713In fact, I didn't see any machines advertised as Lathes, nor do I see any manuals for Lathes by Browne & Sharp.? I don't know enough about their screw cutting machines to know if they can operate as proper Lathes.? I don't see a cross slide, and not sure if the turret swings out at all. I personally would give it a miss and look for something else given your goal is learning lathe basics, but I also feel a pull from old machine tools. Where are you located?? I sometimes have leads all over the country for lathes (like I said, I'm still looking for bit for mine). Good luck!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 24, 2019 4:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 17:39:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:39:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <194871596.1828915.1561498240933@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1485601103.3869.1561480089791@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <194871596.1828915.1561498240933@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <577494492.1829380.1561498790167@mail.yahoo.com> I sent them an email. I was sold by Monkey Wards any idea who manufactured it ? On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 9:32:46 PM GMT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yeah, I'm watching that. On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 4:30:44 PM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Something like this would be great, although it looks like it may be taken (if the sale falls through, would be nice to be next in line):https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/d/champlin-metal-lathe-6-sale-pending/6919139506.html Send me an email irox(at)ix.netcom.com and let you know off list if I see anything in your area. Cheers!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 25, 2019 3:52 AM To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) West Saint Paul MN 55118 On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 6:33:58 AM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete, I think getting a lathe to learn the basics on is a good idea, I find nothing beats having your own (verse taking courses with limited access to a lathe, or getting a membership to some shared workshop with a lathe). For learning the basics, I picked up a a used Central Machinery 9x20 (cheap and crappy enough you won't cry too much if you kill it, plus it has a plastic gear that is easy to replace in cases of crashing - so I've not crashed it)and spent time playing around with different cuts, making things (small pistons are a great practice things) and such (swapping gears, doing different threading etc.).? It's not a great lathe, but it does the job, and even thoughI now have a bigger lathe, I still use the 9x20 (I keep meaning to sell it so I can fit more machines into my workshop). A few years later I bought a 1943 Smith Drum sliding bed lathe, this thing has separate ways for powering the entire bed out a bit, and can turn up to 28" in diameter (great for hatches) with the bed extended.? I spent a lot of time cleaning it and rebuilding bits,getting a VFD wired for it, putting on a modern tool post, and a lot more time tracking down the original manuals for it (eventually found a copy in a veterans museum and paid a researcher to scan it for me). I feel getting a 1905 lathe is going to be taking on a project in itself, with a lot of investment required before you get to the learn the basics part.? (I'm still trying to track down parts from the Smith Drum Lathe).? Maybe see if you can find the manual for it, and see if you can figure out from the manual what type of threading (or other attachment system) the chuck uses, also how hard is it to get parts (may be a thriving parts business on ebay, or maybe you'll be look high and low for random things). The vintagemachinery.org website has tonnes of the Browne & Sharp manuals/catalogs, so you're may be in luck there:http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2185&tab=3 Oh, checking out this catalog from 1904, and may be that's not a lathe, but a screw cutting machine (see page 144):http//vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3713In fact, I didn't see any machines advertised as Lathes, nor do I see any manuals for Lathes by Browne & Sharp.? I don't know enough about their screw cutting machines to know if they can operate as proper Lathes.? I don't see a cross slide, and not sure if the turret swings out at all. I personally would give it a miss and look for something else given your goal is learning lathe basics, but I also feel a pull from old machine tools. Where are you located?? I sometimes have leads all over the country for lathes (like I said, I'm still looking for bit for mine). Good luck!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 24, 2019 4:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 17:53:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:53:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info Message-ID: >From my local contact: "Hi Brian, Surface preparation per technical data sheet: Because this is an immersion service substrate, the surface should be removed of all existing coatings to ensure proper adhesion and durability. SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning (see attached). When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). Blast profile should be 1.5-2 mil. Macropoxy 646 Fast Cure Mill White is the recommended primer (See attached). The mix ratio is 1:1; a two gallon kit should cover 380 sq ft @ 6 mils dry film thickness (recommended for sufficient corrosion protection). The product has a sweat-in time of 30 minutes (wait time after mixing part a and part b together) with a pot life of 4 hours. It can be rolled or brushed, but spray application is favorable (see recommended application info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size, and reduction). Please apply under favorable temperature and humidity conditions. Do not mix catalyzed material with new. Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow Topcoat (see attached): The mix ration is 4:1; a one gallon kit should cover 240 sq ft/gal @ 6 mils DFT. There is no sweat in time and the pot life is 4 hours. It can be rolled or brushed, but spray application is favorable, to achieve recommended dry film thickness in one coat. (see recommended application info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size). Please apply under favorable temperature and humidity conditions. Do not mix catalyzed material with new. Please consider accessory items you may need for surface prep, mixing, reducing, application and cleanup, which SW can facilitate or supply for you. A two gallon kit of Macropoxy 646 Mill White is $120.00. A one gallon kit of Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow is $195.00. Our Elkridge Commercial store at 6650 Santa Barbara Rd. 21075 (410-796-3397) has the products in stock. The manager is Steve, with whom I have discussed your application. I am copying him on this email. Please feel free to contact me if you need anything else. Sincerely," New Residential Account Executive Sherwin Williams Capital DC Area 301-674-3779 judith.d.jensen at sherwin.com Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 18:39:21 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 22:39:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <666494255.1853271.1561502361283@mail.yahoo.com> Excellent, thanks Brian.? I will memorialize this on the website so we have it for future reference. On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 05:55:14 PM EDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: From my local contact: "Hi Brian, Surface preparation per technical data sheet: Because this is an immersion service substrate, the surface should be removed of all existing coatings to ensure proper adhesion and durability.? SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning (see attached). When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Unit area shall be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9?sq. in.). Blast profile should be 1.5-2 mil.? Macropoxy 646 Fast Cure Mill White is the recommended primer (See attached).? The mix ratio is 1:1; a two gallon kit should cover 380 sq ft @ 6 mils dry film thickness (recommended for sufficient corrosion protection). The product has a sweat-in time of 30 minutes (wait time after mixing part a and part b together) with a pot life?of 4 hours. It can be rolled or brushed, but spray application is favorable (see recommended application info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size, and reduction). Please apply under favorable temperature and humidity conditions. Do not mix catalyzed material with new.? Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow Topcoat (see attached): The mix ration is 4:1; a one gallon kit should cover 240 sq ft/gal @ 6 mils DFT. There is no sweat in time and the pot life is 4 hours. It can be rolled or brushed, but spray application is favorable, to achieve recommended dry film thickness in one coat.?(see recommended application info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size). Please apply under favorable temperature and humidity conditions. Do not mix catalyzed material with new. Please consider accessory items you may need for surface prep, mixing, reducing, application and cleanup, which SW can facilitate or supply for you.? A two gallon kit of Macropoxy 646 Mill White is $120.00. A one gallon kit of Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow is $195.00. Our Elkridge Commercial store at 6650 Santa Barbara Rd. 21075 (410-796-3397) has the products in stock. The manager is Steve, with whom I have discussed your application. I am copying him on this email. ? Please feel free to contact me if you need anything else.? Sincerely," New Residential Account Executive Sherwin Williams Capital DC Area 301-674-3779 judith.d.jensen at sherwin.com Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 18:48:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 18:48:47 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, That's a keeper email! Remember you get a really substantial PSUBS discount from Sherwin Williams. Best, Alec On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 5:54 PM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > From my local contact: > > "Hi Brian, > > Surface preparation per technical data sheet: > > Because this is an immersion service substrate, the surface should be > removed of all existing coatings to ensure proper adhesion and durability. > > SSPC-SP10 / NACE 2 Near-White Blast Cleaning (see attached). > > When viewed without magnification shall be free of all visible oil, > grease, dust, dirt, mill scale, rust, coating, oxides, corrosion products > and other foreign matter of at least 95% of each unit area. Unit area shall > be approximately 3 in. x 3 in. (9 sq. in.). > > Blast profile should be 1.5-2 mil. > > Macropoxy 646 Fast Cure Mill White is the recommended primer (See > attached). > > The mix ratio is 1:1; a two gallon kit should cover 380 sq ft @ 6 mils dry > film thickness (recommended for sufficient corrosion protection). The > product has a sweat-in time of 30 minutes (wait time after mixing part a > and part b together) with a pot life of 4 hours. It can be rolled or > brushed, but spray application is favorable (see recommended application > info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size, and reduction). Please apply > under favorable temperature and humidity conditions. > > Do not mix catalyzed material with new. > > Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow Topcoat (see attached): > > The mix ration is 4:1; a one gallon kit should cover 240 sq ft/gal @ 6 > mils DFT. There is no sweat in time and the pot life is 4 hours. It can be > rolled or brushed, but spray application is favorable, to achieve > recommended dry film thickness in one coat. (see recommended application > info on pump, pressure, hose and tip size). Please apply under favorable > temperature and humidity conditions. Do not mix catalyzed material with new. > > Please consider accessory items you may need for surface prep, mixing, > reducing, application and cleanup, which SW can facilitate or supply for > you. > > A two gallon kit of Macropoxy 646 Mill White is $120.00. > A one gallon kit of Sherloxane 800 Safety Yellow is $195.00. > > Our Elkridge Commercial store at 6650 Santa Barbara Rd. 21075 > (410-796-3397) has the products in stock. The manager is Steve, with whom I > have discussed your application. I am copying him on this email. > > Please feel free to contact me if you need anything else. > > Sincerely," > > > New Residential Account Executive > > Sherwin Williams Capital DC Area > > 301-674-3779 > > judith.d.jensen at sherwin.com > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 19:09:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 23:09:05 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info Message-ID: Jon, I also have the spec documents mentioned in the email. They're PDFs. Want them too? Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 19:12:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 23:12:06 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info Message-ID: When I talk to the local sales people I'll ask what other standard colors are available for the top coat. Poking around the net, looks like it came on the market in 2016. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 19:23:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jeff White via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 23:23:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) In-Reply-To: <577494492.1829380.1561498790167@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1485601103.3869.1561480089791@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <194871596.1828915.1561498240933@mail.yahoo.com> <577494492.1829380.1561498790167@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <607384571.3684.1561505026055@mail.yahoo.com> The maker would be Logan Lathe.? ? ?from the serial #? ?it would have been made in 1945 Unless there is some damage that can not be seen in the pictures,? ? This could be a really good buy.? ?? If you get it there are Logan Lathe groups that are active,? and you can frequently get parts from Ebay. Jeff White? On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 02:41:49 PM PDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I sent them an email. I was sold by Monkey Wards any idea who manufactured it ? On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 9:32:46 PM GMT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yeah, I'm watching that. On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 4:30:44 PM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Something like this would be great, although it looks like it may be taken (if the sale falls through, would be nice to be next in line):https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/d/champlin-metal-lathe-6-sale-pending/6919139506.html Send me an email irox(at)ix.netcom.com and let you know off list if I see anything in your area. Cheers!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 25, 2019 3:52 AM To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) West Saint Paul MN 55118 On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 6:33:58 AM GMT, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Pete, I think getting a lathe to learn the basics on is a good idea, I find nothing beats having your own (verse taking courses with limited access to a lathe, or getting a membership to some shared workshop with a lathe). For learning the basics, I picked up a a used Central Machinery 9x20 (cheap and crappy enough you won't cry too much if you kill it, plus it has a plastic gear that is easy to replace in cases of crashing - so I've not crashed it)and spent time playing around with different cuts, making things (small pistons are a great practice things) and such (swapping gears, doing different threading etc.).? It's not a great lathe, but it does the job, and even thoughI now have a bigger lathe, I still use the 9x20 (I keep meaning to sell it so I can fit more machines into my workshop). A few years later I bought a 1943 Smith Drum sliding bed lathe, this thing has separate ways for powering the entire bed out a bit, and can turn up to 28" in diameter (great for hatches) with the bed extended.? I spent a lot of time cleaning it and rebuilding bits,getting a VFD wired for it, putting on a modern tool post, and a lot more time tracking down the original manuals for it (eventually found a copy in a veterans museum and paid a researcher to scan it for me). I feel getting a 1905 lathe is going to be taking on a project in itself, with a lot of investment required before you get to the learn the basics part.? (I'm still trying to track down parts from the Smith Drum Lathe).? Maybe see if you can find the manual for it, and see if you can figure out from the manual what type of threading (or other attachment system) the chuck uses, also how hard is it to get parts (may be a thriving parts business on ebay, or maybe you'll be look high and low for random things). The vintagemachinery.org website has tonnes of the Browne & Sharp manuals/catalogs, so you're may be in luck there:http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2185&tab=3 Oh, checking out this catalog from 1904, and may be that's not a lathe, but a screw cutting machine (see page 144):http//vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3713In fact, I didn't see any machines advertised as Lathes, nor do I see any manuals for Lathes by Browne & Sharp.? I don't know enough about their screw cutting machines to know if they can operate as proper Lathes.? I don't see a cross slide, and not sure if the turret swings out at all. I personally would give it a miss and look for something else given your goal is learning lathe basics, but I also feel a pull from old machine tools. Where are you located?? I sometimes have leads all over the country for lathes (like I said, I'm still looking for bit for mine). Good luck!? Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Jun 24, 2019 4:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Is this worth it to pickup? It will probably cost me a couple hundred bucks to get home. Though I might not be able to make alot (any) useful parts. Is it worth it to lean the basics of using a lathe? Pete Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe | | | | | | | | | | | Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe 1905 Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe. Free but you must pay for removal. We have freight elevator and loading dock. | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 19:24:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 16:24:32 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Message-ID: <1782906232.10434.1561505072408@wamui-cinderella.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 21:40:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 01:40:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting - more info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <375945756.8172.1561513259044@mail.yahoo.com> Yes...I'll take whatever you have.? I'll send you my email address. On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 07:10:57 PM EDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, I also have the spec documents mentioned in the email. They're PDFs. Want them too? Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 25 22:30:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 19:30:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Browne & Sharp Turret Lathe (Saint Paul) Message-ID: <1483329758.12620.1561516252427@wamui-cinderella.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 11:18:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 15:18:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull Painting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <232134845.250163.1561562332410@mail.yahoo.com> PSUBS.ORG -> Resources & Reference -> Design Tools -> Paint -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 11:55:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 15:55:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 12:46:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 16:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 13:02:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 13:02:24 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin Williams Topcoat colors Message-ID: <5d13a521.1c69fb81.1347e.9bc9@mx.google.com> Standard colors for Sherloxane 800 are red, black, white and safety yellow. They can mix specialty colors if desired. Turns out the prices I was quoted are rock bottom and might be the ?special friend of a regional manager? discount. So your mileage may vary when you folks seek to purchase. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 13:22:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:22:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 13:43:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:43:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? Sent from my iPad > On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Thanks' probably the best idea. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle would be arctan (a/b). > > Cliff > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 13:49:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:49:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> E3000 is going from 6 inch conical to 12 in domeHank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 11:43:35 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? Sent from my iPad On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 14:33:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 11:33:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Are you getting your dome before me? First its the Pisces VI, now your sub, no wonder I waiting till September to get my 30" domes. Hey do you still need the OTS rig for your boat? Mine is available, Just need to order a cable. Let me know. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > E3000 is going from 6 inch conical to 12 in dome > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 11:43:35 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > Thanks' probably the best idea. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out > to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges > of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters > before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle > would be arctan (a/b). > > Cliff > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome > on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat > to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My > problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. > How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital > protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and > just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 15:24:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 19:24:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sherwin Williams Topcoat colors In-Reply-To: <5d13a521.1c69fb81.1347e.9bc9@mx.google.com> References: <5d13a521.1c69fb81.1347e.9bc9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1059938273.396552.1561577055921@mail.yahoo.com> I have to say that I like white the best, but I'm thinking that in an ocean environment a bright safety color is better for observation.? However I suppose color on the CT alone like Alec did with Snoopy would be sufficient. On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 01:06:51 PM EDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Standard colors for Sherloxane 800 are red, black, white and safety yellow.? They can mix specialty colors if desired. ? Turns out the prices I was quoted are rock bottom and might be the ?special friend of a regional manager? discount.? So your mileage may vary when you folks seek to purchase. ? Brian ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 15:48:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 19:48:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1482688144.457458.1561578518791@mail.yahoo.com> David,I have not ordered my dome yet, I just had it designed and quoted so far. ?Your still ahead of me ;-) ?Yes I would appreciate it if I can use your OTS. ?My coms are working but I don't want to risk them failing and having nothing. ?Also it will be nice to tell Cliff to turn his damn lights off LOL ?Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 12:33:39 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Are you getting your dome before me? First its the Pisces VI, now your sub, no wonder I waiting till September to get my 30" domes. Hey do you still need the OTS rig for your boat? Mine is available, Just need to order a cable. Let me know. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: E3000 is going from 6 inch conical to 12 in domeHank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 11:43:35 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? Sent from my iPad On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view.? Will Cohen is making the dome for me.? My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree.? How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor?? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 16:14:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:14:31 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D9914D4-3722-44E0-907A-5C32E0E938FC@yahoo.com> Hank, I would clamp 2 straight edges on to the face of the seat & measure off the point they intersect, but a 1/4 of a degree might be tricky. Can you bed the view port seats in with abrasive paste or anything like that just in case you are a tiny bit out? Wonder how good this is if you placed it top dead centre. Then double checked It at bottom dead centre. Alan > On 27/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Thanks' probably the best idea. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle would be arctan (a/b). > > Cliff > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 416242 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 16:27:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:27:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58D0A83A-9E5A-4B70-BEC7-7465C947C37F@yahoo.com> Hank, there are a lot of this style of digital angle finders at a reasonable price. but how long would it need to be to get the angle of your seat. Again put two straight edges on the seat & measure from the point they intersect to find the length of the digital angle gauge required. Alan > On 27/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Cliff, > Thanks' probably the best idea. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle would be arctan (a/b). > > Cliff > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 204450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 17:20:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 21:20:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <58D0A83A-9E5A-4B70-BEC7-7465C947C37F@yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <58D0A83A-9E5A-4B70-BEC7-7465C947C37F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <333216386.521929.1561584020507@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I was looking at a digital protractor like the one you posted. ?I wonder how accurate they are, I guess I could test against a known angle.Karl Stanley bed his ports in epoxy paint. ?I prefer it to fit against the seat so it can creep properly. ?Seating it might be possible also.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 2:28:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,there are a lot of this style of digital angle finders at a reasonable price.but how long would it need to be to get the angle of your seat.Again put two straight edges on the seat & measure from the point theyintersect to find the length of the digital angle gauge required.Alan On 27/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 204450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 17:21:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 21:21:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> New body for E3000 coming along.Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk To: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDTSubject: Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0452.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 87999 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 17:55:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 14:55:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <1482688144.457458.1561578518791@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> <1482688144.457458.1561578518791@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Do you have a thru hull for the transducer cable. We might need to make the cable assembly up depending on your length needed to get from the OTS Location to your transducer location. If your transducer is the same frequency as the OTS unit, you might just need to make up an adapter plug. Cliff has sent out the parts diagram when he built his and I ordered the parts, so I know they are still available. I will test my units next week and then will mail you my OTS SB2010 unit so you can work things out. Send me your address to SeaQuestor at gmail.com Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 12:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > I have not ordered my dome yet, I just had it designed and quoted so far. > Your still ahead of me ;-) Yes I would appreciate it if I can use your > OTS. My coms are working but I don't want to risk them failing and having > nothing. Also it will be nice to tell Cliff to turn his damn lights off > LOL > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 12:33:39 PM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, Are you getting your dome before me? First its the Pisces VI, now > your sub, no wonder I waiting till September to get my 30" domes. Hey do > you still need the OTS rig for your boat? Mine is available, Just need to > order a cable. Let me know. > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > E3000 is going from 6 inch conical to 12 in dome > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 11:43:35 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Cliff, > Thanks' probably the best idea. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out > to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges > of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters > before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle > would be arctan (a/b). > > Cliff > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome > on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat > to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My > problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. > How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital > protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and > just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 19:09:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <367E3475-7034-4864-84BE-53934F041784@gmail.com> <1887693778.366921.1561571343170@mail.yahoo.com> <1482688144.457458.1561578518791@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1831451726.34488.1561590581720@mail.yahoo.com> Hi David,I have extra penetrators but just get the cable that suits your sub and it will be plenty long. ?My transducer pen is just inches away. ?My transducer is 27hz so won't work. ?I will need your transducer and cable. ?I will make an adaptor in my mad scientist laboratory.;-) ?Are you getting a penetrator to fit the cable with pigtails inside the hull?Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:55:52 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, Do you have a thru hull for the transducer cable. We might need to make the cable assembly up depending on your length needed to get from the OTS Location to your transducer location. If your transducer is the same frequency as the OTS unit, you might just need to make up an adapter plug. Cliff has sent out the parts diagram when he built his and I ordered the parts, so I know they are still available.? I will test my units next week and then will mail you my OTS SB2010 unit so you can work things out. Send me your address to SeaQuestor at gmail.com Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 12:49 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I have not ordered my dome yet, I just had it designed and quoted so far.? Your still ahead of me ;-) ?Yes I would appreciate it if I can use your OTS.? My coms are working but I don't want to risk them failing and having nothing.? Also it will be nice to tell Cliff to turn his damn lights off LOL ?Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 12:33:39 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Are you getting your dome before me? First its the Pisces VI, now your sub, no wonder I waiting till September to get my 30" domes. Hey do you still need the OTS rig for your boat? Mine is available, Just need to order a cable. Let me know. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:49 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: E3000 is going from 6 inch conical to 12 in domeHank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 11:43:35 AM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Which boat is this mod on, Gamma or E3000? Sent from my iPad On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:22 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view.? Will Cohen is making the dome for me.? My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree.? How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor?? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 19:47:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:47:16 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Awesome Hank! Will be looking like a sports car soon! Alan > On 27/06/2019, at 9:21 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > New body for E3000 coming along. > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: hank pronk > To: hank pronk > Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDT > Subject: > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 20:04:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:04:02 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: <333216386.521929.1561584020507@mail.yahoo.com> References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <58D0A83A-9E5A-4B70-BEC7-7465C947C37F@yahoo.com> <333216386.521929.1561584020507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, It says resolution to .1 of a degree but accuracy to .3 of a degree. You need accuracy to .25. That model was made in North America. You will need to find out how long the tool needs to be & then look at the advertised accuracy within the available items. Alternatively you could find out how long the tool needs to be & see if any local machine shops have an instrument for measuring angles of that length. Then you would have to tow your sub there cause they won't lend you their tool! ( unwritten law) Alan > On 27/06/2019, at 9:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I was looking at a digital protractor like the one you posted. I wonder how accurate they are, I guess I could test against a known angle. > Karl Stanley bed his ports in epoxy paint. I prefer it to fit against the seat so it can creep properly. Seating it might be possible also. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 2:28:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > there are a lot of this style of digital angle finders at a reasonable price. > but how long would it need to be to get the angle of your seat. > Again put two straight edges on the seat & measure from the point they > intersect to find the length of the digital angle gauge required. > Alan > > >> On 27/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Cliff, >> Thanks' probably the best idea. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> If it were me I would just calculate based on trig. Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a. Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2. Angle would be arctan (a/b). >> >> Cliff >> >> On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi All, I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. Will Cohen is making the dome for me. My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 20:17:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:17:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b201d52c7d$ac420680$04c61380$@telus.net> Wow. Very nice, Hank. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 2:21 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) New body for E3000 coming along. Hank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk > To: hank pronk > Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDT Subject: Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 20:46:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 00:46:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] measuring an angle issue In-Reply-To: References: <137223052.322294.1561564548183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <137223052.322294.1561564548183@mail.yahoo.com> <1632362051.354057.1561567605756@mail.yahoo.com> <1752777747.363648.1561569738177@mail.yahoo.com> <58D0A83A-9E5A-4B70-BEC7-7465C947C37F@yahoo.com> <333216386.521929.1561584020507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2060542212.55838.1561596395043@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I know the local machine shop owner pretty good, so I will ask him first.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 6:04:26 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,It says resolution to .1 of a degree but accuracy to .3 of a degree.You need accuracy to .25. That model was made in North America.You will need to find out how long the tool needs to be & then lookat the advertised accuracy within the available items.Alternatively you could find out how long the tool needs to be & seeif any local machine shops have an instrument for measuring anglesof that length. Then you would have to tow your sub there causethey won't lend you their tool! ( unwritten law)Alan On 27/06/2019, at 9:20 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,I was looking at a digital protractor like the one you posted. ?I wonder how accurate they are, I guess I could test against a known angle.Karl Stanley bed his ports in epoxy paint. ?I prefer it to fit against the seat so it can creep properly. ?Seating it might be possible also.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 2:28:27 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,there are a lot of this style of digital angle finders at a reasonable price.but how long would it need to be to get the angle of your seat.Again put two straight edges on the seat & measure from the point theyintersect to find the length of the digital angle gauge required.Alan On 27/06/2019, at 5:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Cliff,Thanks' probably the best idea.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM MDT, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If it were me I would just calculate based on trig.? Before you bore out to 12" measure the depth difference between the inside and out side edges of the seat and call this a.? Measure the inside and outside diameters before boring and designate b as the difference in diameters /2.? Angle would be arctan (a/b). Cliff On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:57:18 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, ?I am planing to remove my original conical port and instal a dome on the original conical seat and bore the centre out of the original seat to get 12 inches of open view. ?Will Cohen is making the dome for me. ?My problem is, I have to measure the seat angle to within 1\4 of 1 degree. ?How can I measure this angle without buying an expensive digital protractor? ?I thought about just measuring the distances of the angles and just do the math, but it is pretty tricky to measure.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 20:47:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 00:47:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <00b201d52c7d$ac420680$04c61380$@telus.net> References: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> <00b201d52c7d$ac420680$04c61380$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1357439872.34570.1561596452849@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks guys, should have done this from the start, oh well.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 6:17:31 PM MDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv4275302412 #yiv4275302412 -- _filtered #yiv4275302412 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4275302412 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4275302412 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv4275302412 #yiv4275302412 p.yiv4275302412MsoNormal, #yiv4275302412 li.yiv4275302412MsoNormal, #yiv4275302412 div.yiv4275302412MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New serif;}#yiv4275302412 a:link, #yiv4275302412 span.yiv4275302412MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4275302412 a:visited, #yiv4275302412 span.yiv4275302412MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4275302412 span.yiv4275302412EmailStyle17 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv4275302412 .yiv4275302412MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4275302412 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4275302412 div.yiv4275302412WordSection1 {}#yiv4275302412 Wow. Very nice, Hank. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 2:21 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? New body for E3000 coming along. Hank ? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk To: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDT Subject: ? ? ? Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 26 23:29:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 20:29:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190626202951.43D1CB5E@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 02:19:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:19:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190626202951.43D1CB5E@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190626202951.43D1CB5E@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <251866360.146682.1561616372683@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,Is it runny enough to flow through your holes and into the void?Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 9:30:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 10:29:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190626202951.43D1CB5E@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190626202951.43D1CB5E@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1576172007.277119.1561645752306@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 11:42:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:42:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627084203.43D3B3B1@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 11:43:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 08:43:39 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627084339.43D3B3EC@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 11:55:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627084203.43D3B3B1@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190627084203.43D3B3B1@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2072050927.339034.1561650901824@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 13:50:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:50:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627084339.43D3B3EC@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190627084339.43D3B3EC@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1882534590.437545.1561657802065@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I hope it will flow in, in time. ?If you want, make a little sample and sent it to me and I will pressure test it for you in water. ?I can also do a dive with it attached to the sub. ?I will be testing my sample sucker at 250 feet soon, so if you want send it soon.HankHank On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 9:45:44 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,? ? ? ? ? It stays liquid for about 45 seconds? . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:19:32 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Is it runny enough to flow through your holes and into the void?Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 9:30:03 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 14:37:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627113726.43D0C370@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 15:03:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:03:46 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 15:33:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a pressure chamber. As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a fraction of its original size in the process. I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. It might be perfectly OK though... Alan > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 15:41:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:41:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627124155.43D26F4F@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 15:53:28 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:53:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: References: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <696848062.469820.1561665208363@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I would just pressure test in water and weigh it before and after to see if it absorbed any waterHank On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 1:33:59 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian,as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leavesyou negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a?pressure chamber.As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectlyfine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a?fraction of its original size in the process.I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million.They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment.It might be perfectly OK though...Alan ? On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Cliff,? ? ? ? ? ? ? It's rated for 580 psi. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 15:55:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:55:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190627120346.43D1EA04@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1710828608.477726.1561665310499@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I bet it feels like you spent 3 millHank On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 1:04:56 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Cliff,? ? ? ? ? ? ? It's rated for 580 psi. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 16:41:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627124155.43D26F4F@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20190627124155.43D26F4F@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam. The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression of the air at depth this might be a slow process. Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing. Alan > On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 > > Brian, > as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves > you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a > pressure chamber. > As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly > fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a > fraction of its original size in the process. > I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. > They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. > It might be perfectly OK though... > Alan > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 18:01:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:01:34 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627150134.43D1F633@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 19:17:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627150134.43D1F633@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190627150134.43D1F633@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. Cliff Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu, and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out. Need to go out for a sail anyway ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 > > Brian, > If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam. > The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you > were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when > you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression > of the air at depth this might be a slow process. > Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum > dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing. > Alan > > > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 > > Brian, > as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves > you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a > pressure chamber. > As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly > fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a > fraction of its original size in the process. > I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. > They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. > It might be perfectly OK though... > Alan > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 20:22:43 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 00:22:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627150134.43D1F633@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190627150134.43D1F633@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <304304976.27311.1561681363608@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?Mail me a piece and I can video it for you at depth.Hank On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 4:01:48 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu,? and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out.? Need to go out for a sail anyway !?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 Brian,If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam.The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that youwere becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when?you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compressionof the air at depth this might be a slow process.Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximumdive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing.Alan On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ?I don't have 3 million dollars.? ? In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically?,? ?I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink.? I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 Brian,as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leavesyou negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a?pressure chamber.As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectlyfine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a?fraction of its original size in the process.I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million.They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment.It might be perfectly OK though...Alan ? On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Cliff,? ? ? ? ? ? ? It's rated for 580 psi. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 21:05:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:05:52 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627124155.43D26F4F@m0117457.ppops.net> References: <20190627124155.43D26F4F@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <49367AD1-DCCB-4699-8067-DFB6803F714B@yahoo.com> Brian, the 580psi you quoted is parallel compressive strength, which as I understand it is a pressure applied on both ends of a plank of wood. I am wondering if the figure is higher than that in an underwater situation where pressure is applied equally from every direction. Someone on the list may want to comment on this. One concern is that the ambient setting temperature plays a factor in the density & that if you are doing a large pour you would get an exothermic reaction that would be hotter in the middle of the pour resulting in a weaker product. I would be inclined to do a number of small thin pours rather than a large one. Alan > On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 > > Brian, > as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves > you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a > pressure chamber. > As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly > fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a > fraction of its original size in the process. > I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. > They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. > It might be perfectly OK though... > Alan > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 21:23:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627182342.43D1FEC0@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 22:31:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:31:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627193135.43D76B33@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 27 23:16:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627193135.43D76B33@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190627193135.43D76B33@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2137270987.93886.1561691818554@mail.yahoo.com> This could work.? Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface.? It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it. To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface.? I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree.?? What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application.? If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate. I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy? was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from collapsing.?? Best Regards Cliff ?? On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long,? close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve.? ?As the pipe descends?water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume.? Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) .? When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi.? Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in .? Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too. Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 Cliff,? ? There is probably?a way I can determine?if it shrinks or not at depth.? ?I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. ?I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. ?Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . ?The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. Cliff? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu,? and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out.? Need to go out for a sail anyway !?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 Brian,If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam.The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that youwere becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when?you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compressionof the air at depth this might be a slow process.Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximumdive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing.Alan On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ?I don't have 3 million dollars.? ? In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically?,? ?I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink.? I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 Brian,as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leavesyou negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a?pressure chamber.As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectlyfine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a?fraction of its original size in the process.I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million.They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment.It might be perfectly OK though...Alan ? On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Cliff,? ? ? ? ? ? ? It's rated for 580 psi. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 00:18:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 21:18:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 01:34:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 17:34:31 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: Brian, That's a different product than what you are using isn't it? Also they are using prefabricated sheets formed in controlled conditions that they machined, rather than a 2 part pour method that you are using. Can you check with your products technical adviser on whether you would loose strength on a thick pour due to the higher internal temperatures due to chemical reactions? Generally with plastic items there is a 4 X safety factor required where human life is at risk. This wouldn't apply with a ROV. You might be on to a good thing, but just being anal about safety as usual. Someone kindly pointed out that Alan was an anagram for anal lol. Cheers. > On 28/06/2019, at 4:18 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC) > > This could work. Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface. It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it. > > To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface. I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree. > > What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application. If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate. > > I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from collapsing. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long, close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve. As the pipe descends water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume. Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) . When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi. Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in . Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 > > Cliff, There is probably a way I can determine if it shrinks or not at depth. I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 > > Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. > > > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu, and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out. Need to go out for a sail anyway ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 > > Brian, > If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam. > The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you > were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when > you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression > of the air at depth this might be a slow process. > Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum > dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing. > Alan > > > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 > > Brian, > as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves > you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a > pressure chamber. > As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly > fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a > fraction of its original size in the process. > I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. > They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. > It might be perfectly OK though... > Alan > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 07:04:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:04:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <853710542.172845.1561719850070@mail.yahoo.com> Not my forte, but given the hardness of this product when cured is there really an expectation that it is going to deform in a visually measurable way and spring back into shape from a depth test?? Seems like it's more likely to either structurally fail or not with obvious non-elastic results such as cracks, cavities, etc, hence the weight test to see if it absorbs water.? I'm thinking the dunk test from the sailboat is a good first start. The cost of this product seems to be on par with trawler floats from a pound to pound buoyancy perspective but it has the advantage of allowing custom shaping.? I'm interested in the results. Should we invest in a small amount of this product and put it to some more rigorous pressure testing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 07:33:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:33:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <853710542.172845.1561719850070@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> <853710542.172845.1561719850070@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <835813877.182049.1561721628203@mail.yahoo.com> I have to agree, my spider senses are telling me it is going to work fine. ?Just a feeling.Hank On Friday, June 28, 2019, 5:04:28 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Not my forte, but given the hardness of this product when cured is there really an expectation that it is going to deform in a visually measurable way and spring back into shape from a depth test?? Seems like it's more likely to either structurally fail or not with obvious non-elastic results such as cracks, cavities, etc, hence the weight test to see if it absorbs water.? I'm thinking the dunk test from the sailboat is a good first start. The cost of this product seems to be on par with trawler floats from a pound to pound buoyancy perspective but it has the advantage of allowing custom shaping.? I'm interested in the results. Should we invest in a small amount of this product and put it to some more rigorous pressure testing?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 08:06:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:06:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1950273671.197350.1561723565314@mail.yahoo.com> They don't say much about the manufacturing process.? This could contain micropheres as a filler.? I tend to take Alan's point on this from a safety perspective. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a low cost alternative to syntactic foam.? It just that this is such a safety critical item on a manned submersible.? Lets say we use a non syntactic foam for buoyancy, get the boat neutral by flooding MBT and start the dive over a deep trench. Captain has a heart attach because it just so beautiful out the viewport.? With any shrinkage at all of the foam, the boat would go slightly negative and boat would eventually crush unless their were automatic systems on board.? I am just saying if it were my boat, I would do some testing before putting my life and the life in the hands of a product that was not specifically designed for this application or unless I confirmed that it would not shrink by testing.? ?What you are planning on using may be perfectly fine.? It just seems prudent to do some testing. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:19:31 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC) This could work.? Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface.? It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it. To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface.? I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree.?? What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application.? If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate. I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy? was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from collapsing.?? Best Regards Cliff ?? On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long,? close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve.? ?As the pipe descends?water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume.? Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) .? When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi.? Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in .? Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too. Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 Cliff,? ? There is probably?a way I can determine?if it shrinks or not at depth.? ?I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way . Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. ?I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. ?Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . ?The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. Cliff? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu,? and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out.? Need to go out for a sail anyway !?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 Brian,If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam.The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that youwere becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when?you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compressionof the air at depth this might be a slow process.Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximumdive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing.Alan On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,? ? ? ?I don't have 3 million dollars.? ? In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically?,? ?I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink.? I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it.?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 Brian,as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leavesyou negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a?pressure chamber.As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectlyfine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a?fraction of its original size in the process.I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million.They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment.It might be perfectly OK though...Alan ? On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 Cliff,? ? ? ? ? ? ? It's rated for 580 psi. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) Brian, this is not syntactic foam.? It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence.? It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth.? ?It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth.? I don't think this foam has either. Best Regards Cliff On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Clifff,? ?Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html suppose to be good to 580 psi?? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced.? ?I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing.? Can you send a link to the foam you are using? Best Regards?? On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi everybody,? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff? gets as hard as a rock !? very dense , and very light.? ?This?pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought,? The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin? 1/8" luan ,? then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag)? so the foam won't stick to it.? But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets?from harbor freight)? in tight to contain any foam.? That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out.? Waiting for an 80 + degree day? .? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 My first batch of foam cam today !? yay !? ?two five gallon pails, A and B,? should be interesting ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) Brian,Did you find foam to fill the void?Hank On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 09:07:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:07:32 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <1950273671.197350.1561723565314@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> <1950273671.197350.1561723565314@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56FDA945-02FB-414C-87DE-E00BDE166DF9@yahoo.ca> Cliff Agreed,, we should test this stuff. Must have been some pretty mermaids in your heart attack scenario. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 28, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > They don't say much about the manufacturing process. This could contain micropheres as a filler. I tend to take Alan's point on this from a safety perspective. > > Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a low cost alternative to syntactic foam. It just that this is such a safety critical item on a manned submersible. Lets say we use a non syntactic foam for buoyancy, get the boat neutral by flooding MBT and start the dive over a deep trench. Captain has a heart attach because it just so beautiful out the viewport. With any shrinkage at all of the foam, the boat would go slightly negative and boat would eventually crush unless their were automatic systems on board. I am just saying if it were my boat, I would do some testing before putting my life and the life in the hands of a product that was not specifically designed for this application or unless I confirmed that it would not shrink by testing. What you are planning on using may be perfectly fine. It just seems prudent to do some testing. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:19:31 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC) > > This could work. Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface. It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it. > > To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface. I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree. > > What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application. If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate. > > I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from collapsing. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long, close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve. As the pipe descends water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume. Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) . When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi. Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in . Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 > > Cliff, There is probably a way I can determine if it shrinks or not at depth. I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 > > Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. > > > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu, and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out. Need to go out for a sail anyway ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 > > Brian, > If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam. > The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you > were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when > you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression > of the air at depth this might be a slow process. > Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum > dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing. > Alan > > > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. > > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 > > Brian, > as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves > you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a > pressure chamber. > As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly > fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a > fraction of its original size in the process. > I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. > They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. > It might be perfectly OK though... > Alan > > On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 > > Cliff, > It's rated for 580 psi. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft > > http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html > > > suppose to be good to 580 psi > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? > > Best Regards > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi everybody, > I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 > > My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, > Did you find foam to fill the void? > Hank > > On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 10:53:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 14:53:18 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <1950273671.197350.1561723565314@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> <1950273671.197350.1561723565314@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I recently obtained a quote on some machined syntactic components, because I needed to make a custom float assembly in which to embed a ring magnet in order to operate a level sensing instrument inside a corrosive fluid tank subject to 15,000 psi pressure. Granted, the parts were small, but I was still surprised that the cost was reasonable. Perhaps basic blocks wouldn't be too out of reach - particularly at the densities required at PSub depths? Depends how much you need obviously, but it might be worth an inquiry. Engineered Syntactic Systems: https://esyntactic.com/products-solutions/syntactic-buoyancy-materials/ Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun 28, 2019, 06:06, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > They don't say much about the manufacturing process. This could contain micropheres as a filler. I tend to take Alan's point on this from a safety perspective. > > Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a low cost alternative to syntactic foam. It just that this is such a safety critical item on a manned submersible. Lets say we use a non syntactic foam for buoyancy, get the boat neutral by flooding MBT and start the dive over a deep trench. Captain has a heart attach because it just so beautiful out the viewport. With any shrinkage at all of the foam, the boat would go slightly negative and boat would eventually crush unless their were automatic systems on board. I am just saying if it were my boat, I would do some testing before putting my life and the life in the hands of a product that was not specifically designed for this application or unless I confirmed that it would not shrink by testing. What you are planning on using may be perfectly fine. It just seems prudent to do some testing. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 11:19:31 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC) > > This could work. Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface. It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it. > > To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface. I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree. > > What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application. If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate. > > I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from collapsing. > > Best Regards > > Cliff > > On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long, close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve. As the pipe descends water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume. Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) . When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi. Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in . Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too. > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700 > > Cliff, There is probably a way I can determine if it shrinks or not at depth. I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way . > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation > Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500 > > Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume. > > Cliff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu, and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out. Need to go out for a sail anyway ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200 >> >> Brian, >> If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam. >> The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you >> were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when >> you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression >> of the air at depth this might be a slow process. >> Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum >> dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing. >> Alan >> >> On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200 >>> >>> Brian, >>> as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves >>> you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a >>> pressure chamber. >>> As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly >>> fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a >>> fraction of its original size in the process. >>> I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million. >>> They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment. >>> It might be perfectly OK though... >>> Alan >>> >>> On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>>> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700 >>>> >>>> Cliff, >>>> It's rated for 580 psi. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>>> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC) >>>> >>>> Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either. >>>> >>>> Best Regards >>>> >>>> Cliff >>>> >>>> On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft >>>> >>>> http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html >>>> >>>> suppose to be good to 580 psi >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>>> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC) >>>> >>>> Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using? >>>> >>>> Best Regards >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi everybody, >>>> I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700 >>>> >>>> My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting ! >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation >>>> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC) >>>> >>>> Brian, >>>> Did you find foam to fill the void? >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat ! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 11:28:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 16:28:33 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1357439872.34570.1561596452849@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> <00b201d52c7d$ac420680$04c61380$@telus.net> <1357439872.34570.1561596452849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks good Hank. On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 01:48, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks guys, should have done this from the start, oh well. > Hank > > On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 6:17:31 PM MDT, T Novak via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Wow. Very nice, Hank. > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 26, 2019 2:21 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > > > New body for E3000 coming along. > > Hank > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > > *From:* hank pronk > > *To:* hank pronk > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDT > > *Subject:* > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 12:48:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 16:48:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <2827026.481653.1561584063958@mail.yahoo.com> <00b201d52c7d$ac420680$04c61380$@telus.net> <1357439872.34570.1561596452849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <822998508.339443.1561740514744@mail.yahoo.com> Hi James, thanks'Long time no hear, ? how is your project coming along?Hank On Friday, June 28, 2019, 9:29:01 AM MDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Looks good Hank. On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 01:48, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks guys, should have done this from the start, oh well.Hank On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 6:17:31 PM MDT, T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow. Very nice, Hank. ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 2:21 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) ? New body for E3000 coming along. Hank ? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk To: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 3:10:57 PM MDT Subject: ? ? ? Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 17:18:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 09:18:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation In-Reply-To: <853710542.172845.1561719850070@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190627211837.43D2A03B@m0117458.ppops.net> <853710542.172845.1561719850070@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C2785F9-52F4-429E-AEC9-B2A8C7049E08@yahoo.com> All, as we are talking about testing this for General Psubs use I'll elaborate on something I mentioned earlier. In the product specifications below it mentions that in the setting of this product the temperature is critical, & that temperatures below 75 degrees F will make a denser product. One would assume that temperatures above 75 F would make a less dense & hence weaker product. With 2 part chemical reactions there is generally a heat produced & this is exponentially greater the thicker the pour. I used to use casting resins for art & they would get very hot on thick casts. If this were the case then filling any large voids in one pour may cause the centre of the material to be a lot weaker than the outside. To check this we could ask the rep about thick pours, do a thick pour & cut it in cross section to see if it is less dense in the middle or stick a heat probe in the middle of the pour to check for an increased temperature. All expansion rates and times given are temperature critical. Temperatures below 75 degrees F will lower the expansion rate therefore requiring more foam. Ideal working temperature is 75 to 80 degrees F or above. Accurate measuring of these products is extremely critical. Alan All expansion rates and times given are temperature critical. Temperatures below 75 degrees F will lower the expansion rate therefore requiring more foam. Ideal working temperature is 75 to 80 degrees F or above. Accurate measuring of these products is extremely critical. > On 28/06/2019, at 11:04 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Not my forte, but given the hardness of this product when cured is there really an expectation that it is going to deform in a visually measurable way and spring back into shape from a depth test? Seems like it's more likely to either structurally fail or not with obvious non-elastic results such as cracks, cavities, etc, hence the weight test to see if it absorbs water. I'm thinking the dunk test from the sailboat is a good first start. > > The cost of this product seems to be on par with trawler floats from a pound to pound buoyancy perspective but it has the advantage of allowing custom shaping. I'm interested in the results. > > Should we invest in a small amount of this product and put it to some more rigorous pressure testing? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 28 19:15:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 16:15:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation Message-ID: <20190628161509.43D1535D@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 29 07:29:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 11:29:07 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Helle Engineering frequencies or any other info Message-ID: Found an obituary of the fellow who founded Helle Engineering. My kind of guy, not formally trained as an engineer, but a curious mind and independent research led him to found a successful company building underwater com systems. I can't find anything on the web about the blue boxes his company sold, especially the frequencies they used for through water systems. Anyone here remember them or where to find more info? Thanks, Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 29 09:07:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Helle Engineering frequencies or any other info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <161924742.396472.1561813625795@mail.yahoo.com> Everybody used them who wasn't the Navy. And they weren't all blue. Some were white, depending on the model. 27 kHz standard. 27/9 switchable optional. Eventually superseded by Orcatron, et al, which produced higher wattage units with more clarity.Vance -----Original Message----- From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2019 7:29 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Helle Engineering frequencies or any other info Found an obituary of the fellow who founded Helle Engineering.? My kind of guy, not formally trained as an engineer, but a curious mind and independent research led him to found a successful company building underwater com systems. I can't find anything on the web about the blue boxes his company sold, especially the frequencies they used for through water systems. Anyone here remember them or where to find more info? Thanks, Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: