[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Fri Apr 26 17:45:20 EDT 2019
Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you
leave the sub.
During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand
all the
time and leave via the overpressure valve.
Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you
leave the sub in 100 meter deeps?
Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will
leave via the overpressure vale.
Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first
filling- so you have not to fill tthe
vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust
you also.
A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas.
If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a
depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts.
And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4
liters which you need on the surface
for bouancy.
In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the
valve to fill the vest.
Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch
the vest somewere on your sub exit.
If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4
meter depth pool to get an feeling for it.
On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and
dive gear including suits.
On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was
sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40
meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence
survifed all.
The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other
guys to get out -
and died later on decompression thickness. :-(
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sean / all,
the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for
some
time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15
seconds
grabbing an external tank won't be major.
What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner
ear.
I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am
only guessing.
Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to
feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.
I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears
would
be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple
escape from 100ft.
As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out
relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could
get to the
surface easy enough.
If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas
some
time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to
equalise
& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the
surface
making stops if I felt able.
There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan &
practice, a
more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is
going
to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you
could equalise
for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a
knowledge
of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.
At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce
panic.
BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.
Alan
On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to
the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully
attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath
(not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout,
but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end
up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier,
hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is
actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing
around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent
while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how
impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as
a diver would do it.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
More thoughts on escape...
Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.
The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft
they were
filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a
horse shoe
BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a
BCD & large
tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it
& it would
only get me to the surface from about 100ft.
I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas &
having an
80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus
regulator
( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect
fitting on it that
a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.
So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then
when
outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose,
attaching
the BCD connection and un latching the tank.
It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in
about 15
seconds. Any thoughts on this?
Alan
On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Thanks Carsten,
I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar
BCD with a
13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).
It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push
button inflation.
I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.
The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air
to last in an emergency
you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the
manual inflation
mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have
the chance to
slow your ascent & do a decompression stop.
I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up
from with a 13 cu ft
tank.
I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for
snorkelling, so it won't be
sitting in a sub doing nothing.
Alan
<image1.PNG>
On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de
<mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de> via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a
Steinke hood (hard to get now)
or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air
bottle.
Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an
fast rise.
For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will
help muxh.
Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or
had make a course.
We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish
Psub scuttled in a pool .
First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the
water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind:
panic.
But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do
the escape exercice.
With training and the right gear I see no problem to get
out of a sub even from much greater dephts.
The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the
reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away
with a sub sunken in 30 m .
And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope
shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150
Kg at least.
Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift
the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy
"Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!"
vbr Carsten
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you
could do this
100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.
Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper
there is more
probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going
to be encountered
In shallower depths.
BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase
incrementally quicker as it
floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad
toward the end or
you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will
have freezing water
going in to your inner ear. That would increase your
chances of failure.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Hi all,
This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to
weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver
rather than a sub person.
My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced
diver (and even then), the chances of a successful
escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be
almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for
such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security -
and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.
A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends
have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping
a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging
up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with
the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to
cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't
underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it
makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator
without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably
already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or
low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a
desperate point. All of these cause significant mental
impairment before you even start on the escape.
Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up,
switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky
enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter
stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control
is unlikely to be possible.
So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the
best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple
setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified
ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen
on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on
board to give yourself a better chance of being able to
think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's
enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom)
"lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick
and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2
inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above
water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious -
won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be
better put towards things like extra life support
duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that
are as realistic as possible.
Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful
situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine
your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth
will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and
shallower they are a bit better.
I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB
diving, the inability to escape is just one of those
residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational
activity.
Cheers,
Steve Fordyce
Melbourne, Australia
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
I think all submarines should have an escape pod or
jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a
mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.
An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is
to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.
E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.
Hank
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT
via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
A compact bail out rebreather might be the most
surviveable solution however it would require a
significant commitment in training, maintenance as
well as the cost of the equipment itself. I
personally have not been following the development of
bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are
working on this. My dive group relies on planning for
open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather
failure.
If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC
Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and
deep water capability, you will find none better.
It will get you home and flies itself. It is an
electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user.
This is the unit I dive myself and feel very
confident in.
KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable
mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used
market in affordable price ranges.
Both would require significant equipment specific
training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with
only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR
duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same
irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest
end units will give you an hour plus.
On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be
monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing
loop and very likely adding oxygen manually -
particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.
The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell
for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact
package.
It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but
it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub
disabled in deep water.
What is a life worth?
How much risk can one accept for a hobby?
Food for thought anyhow.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
As an alternative to possible death or even worse,
the loss of your submarine,
I am in early stages of designing a buoy release
mechanism that is used
for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that
can be activated
with an electro magnet.
Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning
mechanism & have an
automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down
the braid but is fixed
to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to
the ring & let down untill
latch attaches to submarine. Pull up"
The automatic latch is a device that Phil described &
provided a drawing for,
but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat
latch ( used on release
& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am
still searching & if anyone
knows of one that may be suitable I would be
interested.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There is a significant difference between
submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with
regard to both the dive profile and the equipment
that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more
akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency
ascent in recreational diving, where you need to
get to the surface yesterday and all other
considerations are secondary. In this specific
case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would
significantly increase the incurred decompression
obligation that you must necessarily then blow
off as you ascend through the shallows,
introducing an even greater risk. You also have
the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not
equipped with exposure protection specifically
intended for submersion at depth. Being cold
reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to
keep to a target ascent rate or perform
decompression stops, you would need diving
instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would
need the skills and experience to perform gas
switches and hold stops, and would need
significantly more bulky equipment to have enough
gas to perform a proper decompression (slow
ascent, gas switches, etc.).
When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin
cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the
bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned
depth and time), plus three or four off-board
cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases
(typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus
a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.
Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.
Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and
rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear
of those depths where you are ongassing the most,
and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you
approach the surface, and then have your surface
support or emergency responders administer oxygen
as transport is arranged to recompression. To be
clear, an emergency escape from a disabled
submarine at these depths is not even remotely a
good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea
than dying on the bottom.
To illustrate, if you were to attempt a
continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth
is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres
absolute. If you assume a surface air
consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but
typical of a diver who is stressed or working
hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape
scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min
at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30
ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu.
ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous
ascent with no decompression stops, without
consideration for the gas consumed while blowing
down and locking out. You can judge for yourself
the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub
sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.
Sean
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David
Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary
at the same time. Accent rates form the old
Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a
recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At
300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed
gases would you need for a 10 minute accent
assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.
Best Regards,
David Colombo
804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com
<http://www.SeaQuestor.com>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
As an alternative to possible death or even worse,
the loss of your submarine,
I am in early stages of designing a buoy release
mechanism that is used
for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that
can be activated
with an electro magnet.
Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning
mechanism & have an
automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down
the braid but is fixed
to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to
the ring & let down untill
latch attaches to submarine. Pull up"
The automatic latch is a device that Phil described &
provided a drawing for,
but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat
latch ( used on release
& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am
still searching & if anyone
knows of one that may be suitable I would be
interested.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There is a significant difference between
submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with
regard to both the dive profile and the equipment
that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more
akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency
ascent in recreational diving, where you need to
get to the surface yesterday and all other
considerations are secondary. In this specific
case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would
significantly increase the incurred decompression
obligation that you must necessarily then blow
off as you ascend through the shallows,
introducing an even greater risk. You also have
the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not
equipped with exposure protection specifically
intended for submersion at depth. Being cold
reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to
keep to a target ascent rate or perform
decompression stops, you would need diving
instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would
need the skills and experience to perform gas
switches and hold stops, and would need
significantly more bulky equipment to have enough
gas to perform a proper decompression (slow
ascent, gas switches, etc.).
When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin
cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the
bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned
depth and time), plus three or four off-board
cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases
(typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus
a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.
Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.
Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and
rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear
of those depths where you are ongassing the most,
and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you
approach the surface, and then have your surface
support or emergency responders administer oxygen
as transport is arranged to recompression. To be
clear, an emergency escape from a disabled
submarine at these depths is not even remotely a
good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea
than dying on the bottom.
To illustrate, if you were to attempt a
continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth
is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres
absolute. If you assume a surface air
consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but
typical of a diver who is stressed or working
hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape
scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min
at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30
ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu.
ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous
ascent with no decompression stops, without
consideration for the gas consumed while blowing
down and locking out. You can judge for yourself
the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub
sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.
Sean
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David
Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary
at the same time. Accent rates form the old
Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a
recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At
300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed
gases would you need for a 10 minute accent
assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.
Best Regards,
David Colombo
804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com
<http://www.SeaQuestor.com>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20190426/bea55852/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Personal_Submersibles
mailing list