[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Thu Apr 25 19:01:46 EDT 2019
Hi Rick,
I did mention the tilting buoy.
it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two
caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure
I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker
beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection
between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or
thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy
upright.
the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to
lifevests like
https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994
the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool
(kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I
tested it at night live and it works pretty well;
[image: image.png]
regards
Antoine
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board
> for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was
> activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of
> accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate
> knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy.
> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is
> what makes this site so valuable!!!
> Rick
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent
>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max
>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed
>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim
>> 60ft/min.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> David Colombo
>>
>> 804 College Ave
>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
>> (707) 536-1424
>> www.SeaQuestor.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via
>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question.
>>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen
>>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12%
>>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to
>>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second
>>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and
>>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the
>>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same
>>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50%
>>> oxygen, balance nitrogen.
>>>
>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas
>>> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable
>>> to breathing air at 80 fsw.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2
>>> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to
>>> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser
>>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because
>>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression
>>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest
>>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still
>>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70
>>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at
>>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100%
>>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Sean.
>>>
>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 – 400 ft. Looking
>>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see
>>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the
>>> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply
>>> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T.
>>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM
>>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone
>>> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure
>>> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to
>>> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt
>>> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make
>>> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I
>>> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as
>>> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface
>>> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an
>>> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in
>>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at
>>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any
>>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only
>>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70.
>>>
>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement
>>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill
>>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas?
>>>
>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the
>>> minimum operating depth of the first gas.
>>>
>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a
>>> better safety margin.
>>>
>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities...
>>>
>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9
>>> CFM.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Very well said Sean.
>>>
>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing
>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at
>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub
>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no
>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may
>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause
>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue.
>>>
>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause
>>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to
>>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
>>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having
>>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas
>>> to verify its operation.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>> doing so.
>>>
>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>> examples of this.
>>>
>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>> 218 fsw.
>>>
>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>
>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>
>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>> understanding of it.
>>>
>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>
>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>
>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
>>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>
>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting
>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>
>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>> possibility of success.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>> doing so.
>>>
>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>> examples of this.
>>>
>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>> 218 fsw.
>>>
>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>
>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>
>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>> understanding of it.
>>>
>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>
>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>
>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
>>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>
>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting
>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>
>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>> possibility of success.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Very well said Sean.
>>>
>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing
>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at
>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub
>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no
>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may
>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause
>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue.
>>>
>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause
>>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to
>>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
>>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having
>>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas
>>> to verify its operation.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>> doing so.
>>>
>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>> examples of this.
>>>
>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>> 218 fsw.
>>>
>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>
>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>
>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>> understanding of it.
>>>
>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>
>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>
>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
>>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>
>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting
>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>
>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>> possibility of success.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>> doing so.
>>>
>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>> examples of this.
>>>
>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>> 218 fsw.
>>>
>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>
>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>
>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>> understanding of it.
>>>
>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>
>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>
>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
>>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>
>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting
>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>
>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>> possibility of success.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great analysis !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>
>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>
>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>
>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>
>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this
>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>
>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>
>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>> this discussion)
>>>
>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
>>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>
>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when
>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>
>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the
>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>
>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>
>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>> using air.
>>>
>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>
>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>
>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>
>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>
>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>
>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>> conventional
>>>
>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>
>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>
>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>
>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>> passenger.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>> toward
>>>
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
>>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
>>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
>>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
>>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
>>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>> as possible.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>> whole life!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CG requirements*
>>>
>>> air horn
>>>
>>> whistle
>>>
>>> life jackets
>>>
>>> fire extinguisher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *safety*
>>>
>>> fire blanket
>>>
>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>
>>> 2x spare air
>>>
>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>
>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>
>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>
>>> handheld radios
>>>
>>> uw radio system
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *repair kit*
>>>
>>> gorilla tape
>>>
>>> electrical tape
>>>
>>> butyl tape
>>>
>>> zip tie assortment
>>>
>>> spare battery terminals
>>>
>>> spare wire connectors
>>>
>>> spare wire
>>>
>>> splash zone
>>>
>>> JB weld
>>>
>>> steel tie wire
>>>
>>> steel strap
>>>
>>> e6000 glue
>>>
>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>
>>> screwdriver set
>>>
>>> adjustable wrench
>>>
>>> multi-tool
>>>
>>> hammer
>>>
>>> scissors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What's in your kits?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Shanee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>> Levi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :::::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
>>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
>>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
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