From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 00:41:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 21:41:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack Message-ID: Hi Guys, I decided to work outdoors today on the hp air tank rack. After a couple hours of fine tune grinding and cutting out the bottom of the upper tank boots the rack and boots are now ready. I am using tank boots as tank support and as a guide. The fiberglass exoskeleton will hide the entire tank except for the upper 4 inches of the tanks and valves. I thought was going to mock up the rear thrusters and linkage, untill I discovered that the hole cut thru the tank rack was cut 1/4" two small, so back to the grinding. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Image3424356072772615241.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 358020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 04:17:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 08:17:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475160953.14654547.1554106631061@mail.yahoo.com> David, ingenious!Hank On Sunday, March 31, 2019, 10:42:23 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, I decided to work outdoors today on the hp air tank rack. After a couple hours of fine tune grinding and cutting out the bottom of the upper tank boots the rack and boots are now ready. I am using tank boots as tank support and as a guide. The fiberglass exoskeleton will hide the entire tank except for the upper 4 inches of the tanks and valves. I thought was going to mock up the rear thrusters and linkage, untill I discovered that the hole cut thru the tank rack was cut 1/4" two small,? so back to the grinding.?David_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 13:02:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 13:02:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well I'm just recently back home to Pennsylvania after a weekend trip over to the East coast on some official submersible business, lol. For those who aren't aware, Alec Smyth helped me out a great deal on my overhaul of Snoopy by attaching some groovy new aluminum keels (thanks to Steve McQueen), adding new bumper rails, new weight trays and new battery trays? I will post photos, videos of the overhaul process when I get a chance. Dad and I also got a great overview of Shackleton's progress and Alec's ingenious (if, over-designed) rotating pilot seat. After leaving Alec's place, we headed back up to Baltimore to visit with Brian Hughes, look over his K-350, Harold, and pick up those motor pods. Brian was to the rescue with a coat hanger when we locked ourselves out of the car (!) and even gave mom a coat to wear during the lockout. As I reflect on the weekend and my interactions with both Alec and Brian, it dawns on me just how special our PSUBS group really is? made up of such an awesome cluster of talented, creative, innovative and (most importantly) kind people. I'm honored to be a part of it. ~ Doug S. On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:54 AM Douglas Suhr wrote: > Brian, what are you asking for them? I?m in the area tonight (Saturday) > and will be meeting Alec to pick up Snoopy tomorrow, so could grab em from > you tomorrow if that would work? Doug > > > > On Saturday, March 30, 2019, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Changing over to oil compensated trolling motors. Before I head to >> recycle, anyone want them? Side thruster motors work, large rear doesn't. >> In Columbia, Maryland, USA. >> >> Brian >> >> >> https://www.instagram.com/p/BvpGqK2BZQr/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=eshjg337tw66 >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 13:31:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 10:31:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001d4e8b0$b4de6970$1e9b3c50$@telus.net> Hi David, Excellent idea. I would have thought that the tank boots would have fit really tightly around the scuba tank. Are the tank boots used meant for tanks larger than the 80cuft tanks? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 9:42 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack Hi Guys, I decided to work outdoors today on the hp air tank rack. After a couple hours of fine tune grinding and cutting out the bottom of the upper tank boots the rack and boots are now ready. I am using tank boots as tank support and as a guide. The fiberglass exoskeleton will hide the entire tank except for the upper 4 inches of the tanks and valves. I thought was going to mock up the rear thrusters and linkage, untill I discovered that the hole cut thru the tank rack was cut 1/4" two small, so back to the grinding. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 14:30:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 11:30:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack In-Reply-To: <001001d4e8b0$b4de6970$1e9b3c50$@telus.net> References: <001001d4e8b0$b4de6970$1e9b3c50$@telus.net> Message-ID: Hi Tim, Yup there are two diameters, one for the 80cf alum and one for an 8" tank . I have the standard boot on my tank and the larger one is the receiver boot to sit in. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 10:32 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi David, > > Excellent idea. I would have thought that the tank boots would have fit > really tightly around the scuba tank. Are the tank boots used meant for > tanks larger than the 80cuft tanks? > > Tim > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Sunday, March 31, 2019 9:42 PM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack > > > > Hi Guys, I decided to work outdoors today on the hp air tank rack. After a > couple hours of fine tune grinding and cutting out the bottom of the upper > tank boots the rack and boots are now ready. I am using tank boots as tank > support and as a guide. The fiberglass exoskeleton will hide the entire > tank except for the upper 4 inches of the tanks and valves. I thought was > going to mock up the rear thrusters and linkage, untill I discovered that > the hole cut thru the tank rack was cut 1/4" two small, so back to the > grinding. > > David > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 16:25:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:25:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude .... Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 16:30:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:30:45 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack In-Reply-To: References: <001001d4e8b0$b4de6970$1e9b3c50$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1F6A4845-B0DB-4F20-8A31-157BFCE3C5FB@yahoo.com> David, the boots will be a good cushion when towing. Alan > On 2/04/2019, at 7:30 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Tim, Yup there are two diameters, one for the 80cf alum and one for an 8" tank . I have the standard boot on my tank and the larger one is the receiver boot to sit in. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 10:32 AM T Novak via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Excellent idea. I would have thought that the tank boots would have fit really tightly around the scuba tank. Are the tank boots used meant for tanks larger than the 80cuft tanks? >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 9:42 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SeaQuestor progress- HP air rack >> >> >> >> Hi Guys, I decided to work outdoors today on the hp air tank rack. After a couple hours of fine tune grinding and cutting out the bottom of the upper tank boots the rack and boots are now ready. I am using tank boots as tank support and as a guide. The fiberglass exoskeleton will hide the entire tank except for the upper 4 inches of the tanks and valves. I thought was going to mock up the rear thrusters and linkage, untill I discovered that the hole cut thru the tank rack was cut 1/4" two small, so back to the grinding. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 16:36:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:36:14 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> Brian, Doug, So do you want to discuss air conditioning systems ?? I bought a heap of peltiers for that & have done a bit of research. I second your thoughts on the group Doug. Best thing I did was travel to a few conferences & meet people. Alan > On 2/04/2019, at 9:25 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 21:18:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 01:18:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> References: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2032686582.15166729.1554167937859@mail.yahoo.com> Ya, pretty hard to top that seat mechanism.Hank On Monday, April 1, 2019, 2:36:39 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Brian, Doug,So do you want to discuss air conditioning systems ??I bought a heap of peltiers for that & have done a bit of research.I second your thoughts on the group Doug. Best thing I did was travel toa few conferences & meet people.?Alan On 2/04/2019, at 9:25 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 21:47:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:47:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> References: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <923168C0-6F9D-4CB3-8C9E-A80401729A8F@snyderemail.com> I am still a ?wanna be? and I get a lot just by lurking! Cool...by association. Best personal regards, Greg > On Apr 1, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Brian, Doug, > So do you want to discuss air conditioning systems ?? > I bought a heap of peltiers for that & have done a bit of research. > I second your thoughts on the group Doug. Best thing I did was travel to > a few conferences & meet people. > Alan > > On 2/04/2019, at 9:25 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. >> >> Brian >> Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and >> Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire >> >> Yes, Harold and Maude .... >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 1 21:58:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 01:58:07 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was an attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I couldn't get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to still be flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under vacuum, but that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they work better. Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 02:22:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:22:00 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian H., my idea is to paste the peltiers direct to the hull wall below the water line, as the heat differential you can get between the 2 sides of the peltier Improves efficiency. I intend to put a skin of fibreglass over them maybe raised 1/2" above the peltiers & blow air through. The peltiers are only 1/4 as efficient as a conventional air conditioner but take up a lot less space & only have the fan noise. The great thing about peltiers is you just reverse current & have a heater Just as efficient as a bar heater. Alan > On 2/04/2019, at 2:58 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was an attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I couldn't get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to still be flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under vacuum, but that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! > > OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they work better. > > Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 07:15:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 11:15:13 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat Message-ID: Alan, How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 08:10:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:10:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <923168C0-6F9D-4CB3-8C9E-A80401729A8F@snyderemail.com> References: <4DD80FF0-4B5C-4BE9-ACE6-5192017C1021@yahoo.com> <923168C0-6F9D-4CB3-8C9E-A80401729A8F@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: Yeah Alan, it was great to meet you in the Keys a few years back? also glad you provide us representation in NZ! Brian, I didn't realize you named your folding boat; did 'Maude' come from the 1970's TV show? For those not aware, Brian has a Porta Bote folding skiff that he can store flat underneath his K-350 for those dives when there aren't other support boats around? slick set-up. ~ Doug On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 9:50 PM Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I am still a ?wanna be? and I get a lot just by lurking! > Cool...by association. > Best personal regards, > Greg > > On Apr 1, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Brian, Doug, > So do you want to discuss air conditioning systems ?? > I bought a heap of peltiers for that & have done a bit of research. > I second your thoughts on the group Doug. Best thing I did was travel to > a few conferences & meet people. > Alan > > On 2/04/2019, at 9:25 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our > personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having > that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 08:14:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:14:24 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd heard of / seen the 'redneck' cooler A/C units, but I guess I failed to realize how far along you guys are in exploring various cooling possibilities (I don't always keep up with the list as I should). I get warm enough in Snoopy that it's definitely worth the investment to stay comfortable. I remember when Alec and Steve were diving down in FL, a big bag of ice helped to do the trick, but was a little 'drippy' just the same. Hey, for $2 I think that's a great way to stay cool! When you guys figure out what works best, I'm investing! ~ Doug On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:23 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian H., > my idea is to paste the peltiers direct to the hull wall below the water > line, > as the heat differential you can get between the 2 sides of the peltier > Improves efficiency. I intend to put a skin of fibreglass over them maybe > raised 1/2" above the peltiers & blow air through. The peltiers are only > 1/4 as efficient as a conventional air conditioner but take up a lot less > space > & only have the fan noise. > The great thing about peltiers is you just reverse current & have a heater > Just as efficient as a bar heater. > Alan > > > > > On 2/04/2019, at 2:58 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was an > attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I couldn't > get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to still be > flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under vacuum, but > that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! > > OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the > road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve > material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module > to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip > one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the > middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to > really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they > work better. > > Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a > fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 10:06:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 14:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1554212918014blob.jpg Type: image/png Size: 85393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 10:45:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 07:45:01 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201904021945.x32JjMS5046303@whoweb.com> Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:04:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 15:04:45 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 1) The concept of being too warm on a dive blows my mind. I obviously need to travel more. 2) Can you explain "heat index"? 3) Rather than build an AC unit with an integral reservoir for the condensed water, one might consider simply pumping any condensate to your VBT, if so equipped. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 08:06, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. > Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > [Inline image] > > It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a consequence, is was hard to see. > > There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered. > > If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would like to test in my boat. > > Cliff > > On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:20:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 11:20:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: <5ca37dd8.1c69fb81.97bf3.43b6@mx.google.com> Hmm ? You have me thinking again. A section of peltiers with a Kydex covering (only ?? off the surface rather than something tall enough to put a fan on one end) with a fan located in the middle, drawing outward, pulling air in from the two ends ? hmmm ?. But the humidity will need to go somewhere. Hmmm ?. Slanted at the bottom with a tub at one end to collect. I could make that mold easily and then back to the vacuum forming! Brian Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:35:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:35:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: <982050130.6109.1554219335207@wamui-megara.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:40:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:40:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <201904021945.x32JjMS5046303@whoweb.com> References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> <201904021945.x32JjMS5046303@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:45:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:45:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1795618774.13806705.1554219949910@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, I can relate, but that's because of our northern roots.? Summer water temps in the Florida Keys can reach 90F (32C for those of you still stuck in the metric system).? Just now April and water temp is already 77.5F. Absent some kind of air conditioning system, best time to dive down here is January/February when water temps drop to 70F. We should schedule another Islamorada dive. From: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available 1) The concept of being too warm on a dive blows my mind. I obviously need to travel more. 2) Can you explain "heat index"? 3) Rather than build an AC unit with an integral reservoir for the condensed water, one might consider simply pumping any condensate to your VBT, if so equipped. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:47:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:47:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> <201904021945.x32JjMS5046303@whoweb.com> <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1076313969.13814573.1554220037268@mail.yahoo.com> Is it possible to convert an automotive AC unit? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:53:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:53:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1650127639.15503229.1554220439095@mail.yahoo.com> Heat Index Equation | | | | | | | | | | | Heat Index Equation | | | https://www.weather.gov/safety/heat-index Sean see links above. This is sometimes called the "feels like temperature".? It accounts for two variables, the relative humidity and the ambient temperature.? As RH goes to zero, Heat Index or Feels link temp goes to ambient temperature. Yes, you do need to get out of Canada more often.? People in south Texas pay a lot of attention to heat index for safety reasons. As to dumping condensate into VB tank, on my boat I have removed my VBT and now use removable ballast at CG of boat much like a diver weights up for a dive.? To overboard condensate, I would need a small PD pump, SS internals that could overcome maximum ambient pressure. It would need to be something like the pump Alan has for his VB system. Best Regards Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:05:46 AM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 1) The concept of being too warm on a dive blows my mind. I obviously need to travel more. 2) Can you explain "heat index"? 3) Rather than build an AC unit with an integral reservoir for the condensed water, one might consider simply pumping any condensate to your VBT, if so equipped. Sean Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 08:06, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 11:56:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:56:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <1076313969.13814573.1554220037268@mail.yahoo.com> References: <939080273.15458137.1554214013036@mail.yahoo.com> <201904021945.x32JjMS5046303@whoweb.com> <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <1076313969.13814573.1554220037268@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2064498863.15550112.1554220598306@mail.yahoo.com> I think it would be possible.? They make small car OTC AC units that run off 12VDC.? I think it all doable, just need what I don't have enough of which is time. On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 10:48:11 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Is it possible to convert an automotive AC unit? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 12:44:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 09:44:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 13:49:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:49:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> Message-ID: <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " | | | | ImageViewer | | | What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 14:33:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 18:33:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) [ImageViewer](https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D) Seems like it is classified as a Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An asphyxiant gas is a nontoxic or minimally toxic [gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas) which reduces or displaces the normal [oxygen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen) concentration in breathing [air](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_composition). " > > https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D > > ImageViewer > > What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. > > Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if all the HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. > > If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Allen, > > Check these out. > > http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE > > http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. > Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > [Inline image] > > It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a consequence, is was hard to see. > > There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered. > > If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would like to test in my boat. > > Cliff > > On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 15:34:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:34:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Cliff and Sean, how the heck did you learn all this stuff?!? All I know about A/C units is that the one in my car doesn't work anymore (maybe it needs some more poison stuff!). (Kinda kidding here). What I'm getting out of this conversation is that if I want A/C in Snoopy, I'm probably best off building an ice cooler like Brian and the like have done. ~ Doug On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:34 PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of > HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as > HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in > the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your > atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. > HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert > asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to > find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. > > In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a > full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to > 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you > won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are > typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. > > That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider > the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended > exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate > refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol > heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of > dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for > HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) ImageViewer > > Seems like it is classified as a Simple Asphyxian which according to > Wikipidia "An *asphyxiant gas* is a nontoxic or minimally toxic gas > which reduces or displaces the normal > oxygen concentration in breathing > air . " > > ImageViewer > > > > > > > What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen > concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit > was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in > hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have > a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I > would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. > > Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with > hypoxia if all the HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm > cabin say 72 cuft? > > Cliff > > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. > > If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor > add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will > take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and > control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a > refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or > go thermo electric. > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work > great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. In > the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and > build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts > like a compressor, blower, coil .... > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Allen, > > Check these out. > > > http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE > > http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community > frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. > Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive > off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > [image: Inline image] > > It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin > temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat > index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the > boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin > environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the > towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a > consequence, is was hard to see. > > There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, it > would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is going > to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted > over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need to > be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact > AC unit that was DC powered. > > If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would > like to test in my boat. > > Cliff > > > > > > > On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our > personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having > that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 15:46:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:46:10 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: <5ca3bc02.1c69fb81.fc7bb.f06f@mx.google.com> Well Doug, sometimes If all else fails, the old ways are the best ways ? https://youtu.be/OKUw7G_cAbM Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 16:16:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 20:16:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <419548733.15722999.1554236189475@mail.yahoo.com> Good info.? Thanks.? Like everything on a psub, nothing is easy. Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 1:34:12 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " | | | | ImageViewer | | | What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 16:21:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:21:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <419548733.15722999.1554236189475@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> <419548733.15722999.1554236189475@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So true Brian? simpler is better! ~ Doug S. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 4:17 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Good info. Thanks. Like everything on a psub, nothing is easy. > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 1:34:12 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of > HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as > HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in > the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your > atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. > HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert > asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to > find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. > > In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a > full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to > 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you > won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are > typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. > > That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider > the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended > exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate > refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol > heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of > dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for > HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) ImageViewer > > Seems like it is classified as a Simple Asphyxian which according to > Wikipidia "An *asphyxiant gas* is a nontoxic or minimally toxic gas > which reduces or displaces the normal > oxygen concentration in breathing > air . " > > ImageViewer > > > > > > > What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen > concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit > was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in > hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have > a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I > would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. > > Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with > hypoxia if all the HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm > cabin say 72 cuft? > > Cliff > > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. > > If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor > add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will > take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and > control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a > refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or > go thermo electric. > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work > great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. In > the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and > build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts > like a compressor, blower, coil .... > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > Allen, > > Check these out. > > > http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE > > http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 > > Keith T. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community > frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. > Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive > off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > [image: Inline image] > > It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin > temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat > index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the > boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin > environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the > towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a > consequence, is was hard to see. > > There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, it > would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is going > to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted > over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need to > be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact > AC unit that was DC powered. > > If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would > like to test in my boat. > > Cliff > > > > > > > On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our > personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having > that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > Brian > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 16:23:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:23:27 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stick with the thermo-electric coolers. IIRC the air conditioning on Triton's submersibles use a peltier based units for the reason Sean brings up. Having a refrigerant leak inside the sub is bad. Having to have more hull penetrations than necessary for an external heat rejection coil is bad. Needing some sort of high pressure overboard pump for coolant/condensation is bad. All of these problems are exacerbated when you have the surveyor/inspector/insurance agent breathing down your neck. A half-foot thick acrylic sphere is a very good insulator, so requires almost constant use of the AC or else it can quickly become uninhabitable. The biggest heat management goals should be keeping the sun off of any domes, keeping the cabin circulated, and keeping humidity down to a reasonable level. As for battery consumption, most Psubs shouldn't have to worry. The general usage trend is plenty of short dives in a day, instead of one or two long ones. In that case, the limiting factor for endurance will be HP air capacity. -River J. Dolfi On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:34 PM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: K350 motors and housings - available > (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:34:01 -0400 > From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > Message-ID: > < > CAOGJjnJKpT68VToQvCiBrZNOy9Cbaawd6oCandUPZmSzU3EFJg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Cliff and Sean, how the heck did you learn all this stuff?!? All I know > about A/C units is that the one in my car doesn't work anymore (maybe it > needs some more poison stuff!). (Kinda kidding here). > > What I'm getting out of this conversation is that if I want A/C in Snoopy, > I'm probably best off building an ice cooler like Brian and the like have > done. ~ Doug > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:34 PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both > of > > HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as > > HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products > in > > the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your > > atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. > > HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert > > asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to > > find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. > > > > In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a > > full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to > > 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you > > won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are > > typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. > > > > That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would > consider > > the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended > > exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate > > refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol > > heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy > budgets. > > > > Sean > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea > of > > dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for > > HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) ImageViewer > > < > https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D > > > > Seems like it is classified as a Simple Asphyxian which according to > > Wikipidia "An *asphyxiant gas* is a nontoxic or minimally toxic gas > > which reduces or displaces the > normal > > oxygen concentration in breathing > > air . " > > > > ImageViewer > > > > > > < > https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D > > > > > > > > > > What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen > > concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit > > was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in > > hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I > have > > a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I > > would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. > > > > Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue > with > > hypoxia if all the HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm > > cabin say 72 cuft? > > > > Cliff > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. > > > > If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC > compressor > > add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will > > take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed > and > > control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a > > refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. > Or > > go thermo electric. > > > > Keith T. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > > > Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work > > great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. > In > > the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and > > build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts > > like a compressor, blower, coil .... > > > > Cliff > > > > On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via > Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > > > > > Allen, > > > > Check these out. > > > > > > > http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE > > > > http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 > > > > Keith T. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > > > To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community > > frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. > > Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub > dive > > off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > > > [image: Inline image] > > > > It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin > > temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat > > index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the > > boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin > > environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the > > towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a > > consequence, is was hard to see. > > > > There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, > it > > would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is > going > > to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water > extracted > > over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need > to > > be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact > > AC unit that was DC powered. > > > > If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would > > like to test in my boat. > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our > > personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having > > that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. > > > > Brian > > Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and > > Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire > > > > Yes, Harold and Maude .... > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20190402/d441b599/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 70, Issue 12 > ***************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 16:30:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:30:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] paint questions Message-ID: Hi all, We are trying to do a paint cover up on Fangtooth, she is banged up from a lot of use and those spots have rust that I'm trying to get under control. I was thinking of doing a rust converter and 2 part epoxy paint over the whole sub, but I've had enough bad experiences with epoxies lifting and not bonding properly that I want to solicit advice from others first. For those of you that have painted over the original paint job, what method/brands did you use? We're not going to sandblast under any circumstances :) Thanks! Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 17:56:43 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:56:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] paint questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately I don't have any answers for you at the moment Shanee, but in the not-too-distant future I will be sending little Snoopy to a commercial (oil and gas infrastructure) painting facility for a full sandblast and paint job, at which time I'll be able to report specifically on what products are used in the process. ~ Doug S. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 4:32 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > We are trying to do a paint cover up on Fangtooth, she is banged up from a > lot of use and those spots have rust that I'm trying to get under control. > I was thinking of doing a rust converter and 2 part epoxy paint over the > whole sub, but I've had enough bad experiences with epoxies lifting and not > bonding properly that I want to solicit advice from others first. > > For those of you that have painted over the original paint job, what > method/brands did you use? > > We're not going to sandblast under any circumstances :) > > Thanks! > Shanee > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 18:00:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 15:00:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201904030301.x3331BmA058023@whoweb.com> INMHO the only safe way to use a HFC cooler is to have the unit in a sealed box under vacuum, chilling water that is pumped to fan coils. If there is a leak, an alarm ( pressure & HFC detector activated) informs the operator so they can surface, while the sealed unit contains the refrigerant protecting the occupants. Keith T. The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: -------- Original message --------From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: 4/2/19 11:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " ImageViewer What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 18:34:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:34:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: <20190402153440.DB20FF2D@m0117457.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 19:55:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 23:55:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <1112404384.15531704.1554219646342@mail.yahoo.com> <201904022145.x32LjLAh047818@whoweb.com> <709724597.15580423.1554227341044@mail.yahoo.com> <419548733.15722999.1554236189475@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12767001.15853534.1554249344873@mail.yahoo.com> I am still cold in Gamma in August lol, ?I carry a blanket in case I get stuck orI will freeze lolHank On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 2:21:33 PM MDT, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: So true Brian? simpler is better! ~ Doug S.? On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 4:17 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Good info.? Thanks.? Like everything on a psub, nothing is easy. Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 1:34:12 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " | | | | ImageViewer | | | What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. ?It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive.? Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F.? To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement!? One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear.? I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport.? As a consequence, is was hard to see.?? There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs.? Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service.? The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time.? For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact.? Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered.? If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link.? I would like to test in my boat. Cliff On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers. Brian Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire Yes, Harold and Maude ....?? Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 21:18:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:18:07 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, I have just named a file "air conditioning" as I couldn't find any of my past research. I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. So when you really need AC in Florida, because the water is warm, the peltier will be less efficient ( as I presume the AC system will be ). Directing the ducted cold air on to you rather than trying to cool the whole sub is the best way to go. I have heard that some commercially available subs use a lot less power in their AC systems than cars. Cars don't sit in water, so subs have that advantage. As I have said, peltiers are an efficient heater, so there is no waste putting them in even if you have a not so good air conditioner. With the boat air conditioners you have to get rid of the heat they produce to the water which could be a problem with pressures that subs go down to. If you force an air stream over the peltiers moisture will condense on them so maybe mount them on a slope with a drain at the bottom. I was thinking of mounting them with a heat transfer glue either direct to the hull or on an Aluminium heat sink that is bolted in contact with the hull. If I went with the Aluminium heat sink I would have to ensure the contour of the heat sink matched the hull perfectly & add some heat transfer paste. I like the heated vest idea. Phil Nuyten said Nuytco used an external air conditioner & kept the sub cool that way before diving. They also had vests with pockets that they stored re freezeable chilly pads in. Alan > On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. > > As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? > > For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 21:22:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:22:34 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1586980C-B6BA-4EB7-9E83-DDA3B661A78F@yahoo.com> Doug, a bag of ice??? It was 9 & they had all melted by the time they got to the dive spot. An epic sacrifice by Alec & Steve to dive that reef! Alan > On 3/04/2019, at 1:14 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I'd heard of / seen the 'redneck' cooler A/C units, but I guess I failed to realize how far along you guys are in exploring various cooling possibilities (I don't always keep up with the list as I should). I get warm enough in Snoopy that it's definitely worth the investment to stay comfortable. I remember when Alec and Steve were diving down in FL, a big bag of ice helped to do the trick, but was a little 'drippy' just the same. Hey, for $2 I think that's a great way to stay cool! > > When you guys figure out what works best, I'm investing! ~ Doug > >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:23 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Brian H., >> my idea is to paste the peltiers direct to the hull wall below the water line, >> as the heat differential you can get between the 2 sides of the peltier >> Improves efficiency. I intend to put a skin of fibreglass over them maybe >> raised 1/2" above the peltiers & blow air through. The peltiers are only >> 1/4 as efficient as a conventional air conditioner but take up a lot less space >> & only have the fan noise. >> The great thing about peltiers is you just reverse current & have a heater >> Just as efficient as a bar heater. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >>> On 2/04/2019, at 2:58 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was an attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I couldn't get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to still be flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under vacuum, but that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! >>> >>> OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they work better. >>> >>> Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 21:29:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 18:29:48 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <20190402153440.DB20FF2D@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <201904030630.x336UB8n062950@whoweb.com> Brian, Have radio ( many actually), but no antenna up yet. Have had other things occupying my time and have to use a stealth unit due to restrictions. Guess I should build that DDRR antenna for HF. 73 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 3:34 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Keith? (k6fee)? ?Do you have a Ham radio yet ? Brian?kk6irc? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 15:00:50 -0700 INMHO the only safe way to use a HFC cooler is to have the unit in a sealed box under vacuum, chilling water that is pumped to fan coils. If there is a leak, an alarm ( pressure & HFC detector activated) informs the operator so they can surface, while the sealed unit contains the refrigerant protecting the occupants. Keith T. The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: -------- Original message --------From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: 4/2/19 11:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " ImageViewer What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 21:57:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 01:57:06 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat Message-ID: Alan, Here's how I chill Harold. https://www.instagram.com/p/BTboxSyl1eB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=76fuev90sauc Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 22:06:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (k6fee via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 19:06:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <20190402153440.DB20FF2D@m0117457.ppops.net> Message-ID: <201904030707.x3377K1G064044@whoweb.com> Brian, What band/frequency do you hang out on? -------- Original message --------From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 3:34 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Keith? (k6fee)? ?Do you have a Ham radio yet ? Brian?kk6irc? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 15:00:50 -0700 INMHO the only safe way to use a HFC cooler is to have the unit in a sealed box under vacuum, chilling water that is pumped to fan coils. If there is a leak, an alarm ( pressure & HFC detector activated) informs the operator so they can surface, while the sealed unit contains the refrigerant protecting the occupants. Keith T. The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: -------- Original message --------From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" Date: 4/2/19 11:33 AM (GMT-08:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak.? I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems)? ? ?ImageViewer? Seems like it is classified?as a?Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An?asphyxiant gas?is a nontoxic or minimally toxic?gas?which reduces or displaces the normal?oxygen?concentration in breathing?air. " ImageViewer What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator.? In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21%? So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if?all the?HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own.? It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Thanks for the links,? The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at? $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future.?In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units.? Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... Cliff On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Allen, Check these out. http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 Keith T. -------- Original message --------From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic.? As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 2 22:15:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:15:27 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81111DA3-53BD-4DF8-BFAE-3C5AB3663EE8@yahoo.com> Brian, yes that's the way to go! I just did a bit of googling on peltier coolers for single rooms & there were two at 250W. So not as frightening as the car comparison I gave. These units sit in the middle of the floor so they are not cooling the room, they are just blowing air from the cool side at you. I guess it will boil down to doing some experiments with the peltiers sinking to the hull with differing external temperatures that mimic what the seawater temperature might be. Better still, find out some stats on commercial sub peltier based AC systems & use that as a starting point. Alan > On 3/04/2019, at 2:57 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > Here's how I chill Harold. > > https://www.instagram.com/p/BTboxSyl1eB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=76fuev90sauc > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 08:43:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 12:43:56 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat Message-ID: ... and will the hull be a sufficient heat sink given the paint which insulates? Maybe one of the aluminum heat sinks that come with the peltier kits from China, one of the long flat ones, attached outside the hull opposite the inside chips. Larry Niven's SF book "Ringworld" came to mind as that's how the engineers cooled their structure, big fins stuck out into space. Not an engineer, but I've stayed at certain hotels and knew Poul Anderson. :-) Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 08:48:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 08:48:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <1586980C-B6BA-4EB7-9E83-DDA3B661A78F@yahoo.com> References: <1586980C-B6BA-4EB7-9E83-DDA3B661A78F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hahaha, I guess that's right? I just remember that it was too hot OUTSIDE the sub that day, so I can only imagine how miserable it must've been INSIDE the hull. I do recall after they disembarked Snoopy and hopped into the boat, Alec told us that at one point they were feeling light-headed so he bumped up the oxygen flow rate just a little bit and that helped. Like River points out, keeping the dome covered up from the sun is probably the best means of keeping the pilot(s) cool. ~ Doug On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:23 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Doug, > a bag of ice??? It was 9 & they had all melted by the time they got > to the dive spot. An epic sacrifice by Alec & Steve to dive that reef! > Alan > > On 3/04/2019, at 1:14 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I'd heard of / seen the 'redneck' cooler A/C units, but I guess I failed > to realize how far along you guys are in exploring various cooling > possibilities (I don't always keep up with the list as I should). I get > warm enough in Snoopy that it's definitely worth the investment to stay > comfortable. I remember when Alec and Steve were diving down in FL, a big > bag of ice helped to do the trick, but was a little 'drippy' just the same. > Hey, for $2 I think that's a great way to stay cool! > > When you guys figure out what works best, I'm investing! ~ Doug > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:23 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Brian H., >> my idea is to paste the peltiers direct to the hull wall below the water >> line, >> as the heat differential you can get between the 2 sides of the peltier >> Improves efficiency. I intend to put a skin of fibreglass over them maybe >> raised 1/2" above the peltiers & blow air through. The peltiers are only >> 1/4 as efficient as a conventional air conditioner but take up a lot less >> space >> & only have the fan noise. >> The great thing about peltiers is you just reverse current & have a heater >> Just as efficient as a bar heater. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> On 2/04/2019, at 2:58 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was an >> attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I couldn't >> get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to still be >> flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under vacuum, but >> that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! >> >> OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the >> road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve >> material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module >> to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip >> one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the >> middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to >> really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they >> work better. >> >> Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a >> fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 11:11:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 11:11:48 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: References: <1586980C-B6BA-4EB7-9E83-DDA3B661A78F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: We filled Snoopy with ice that day, and bungeed a towel over the dome during the tow, but the heat is such I really wonder if any A/C would make much of a difference. I like Brian's approach for its simplicity, it's really the only one I would try. But the ultimate solution I think is to make your boat so you can board at the end of the tow. Once submerged, even in Islamorada in the summer, it's perfectly pleasant. That is the intention with Shackleton, and is basically a matter of prioritizing freeboard and surfaced stability. I'm not sure if I'm there, tests will tell. Of course there is one solution that is low cost and never fails - pick Steve McQueen for your crew! He is completely impervious to heat, cold, or anything else. :) Alec On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 8:49 AM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hahaha, I guess that's right? I just remember that it was too hot OUTSIDE > the sub that day, so I can only imagine how miserable it must've been > INSIDE the hull. I do recall after they disembarked Snoopy and hopped into > the boat, Alec told us that at one point they were feeling light-headed so > he bumped up the oxygen flow rate just a little bit and that helped. Like > River points out, keeping the dome covered up from the sun is probably the > best means of keeping the pilot(s) cool. ~ Doug > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:23 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Doug, >> a bag of ice??? It was 9 & they had all melted by the time they got >> to the dive spot. An epic sacrifice by Alec & Steve to dive that reef! >> Alan >> >> On 3/04/2019, at 1:14 AM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> I'd heard of / seen the 'redneck' cooler A/C units, but I guess I failed >> to realize how far along you guys are in exploring various cooling >> possibilities (I don't always keep up with the list as I should). I get >> warm enough in Snoopy that it's definitely worth the investment to stay >> comfortable. I remember when Alec and Steve were diving down in FL, a big >> bag of ice helped to do the trick, but was a little 'drippy' just the same. >> Hey, for $2 I think that's a great way to stay cool! >> >> When you guys figure out what works best, I'm investing! ~ Doug >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:23 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Brian H., >>> my idea is to paste the peltiers direct to the hull wall below the water >>> line, >>> as the heat differential you can get between the 2 sides of the peltier >>> Improves efficiency. I intend to put a skin of fibreglass over them maybe >>> raised 1/2" above the peltiers & blow air through. The peltiers are only >>> 1/4 as efficient as a conventional air conditioner but take up a lot >>> less space >>> & only have the fan noise. >>> The great thing about peltiers is you just reverse current & have a >>> heater >>> Just as efficient as a bar heater. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/04/2019, at 2:58 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> As per AC, I also have a pile of them and been playing. The latest was >>> an attempt to vacuum mold a Kydex cover for an experiment. No joy. I >>> couldn't get the Kydex to vacuum around my mold before it cooled to much to >>> still be flexible. I tried hitting it with a heat gun while it was under >>> vacuum, but that just melted it. Not yet discouraged! >>> >>> OTOH, I picked up a Yong Heng compressor for filling tanks whilst on the >>> road. Haven't tried it yet, just got my activated charcoal and micro sieve >>> material for the filter, but I want to use a peltier water cooling module >>> to chill the water going into the compressor's cooling jacket. The 6 chip >>> one, with the water heat exchangers on the sides and cooling fins in the >>> middle, has a design problem. The supplied fan can't pull enough air to >>> really pull off the heat. Ordered a few sizes of radial fans to see if they >>> work better. >>> >>> Back to Harold, for now sticking with a small insulated ice chest with a >>> fan drawing air across frozen water bottles for my AC. Also dehumidifies. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 11:58:28 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 08:58:28 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rudders Message-ID: <20190403085828.DB2092F8@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Keel1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40475 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Keel2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 43973 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 12:46:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 09:46:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available Message-ID: <20190403094604.DB216C1C@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 13:03:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 17:03:18 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available In-Reply-To: <20190403094604.DB216C1C@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190403094604.DB216C1C@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: The Icom AH-2B antenna works with the AH-4 and is only 8.2 feet long. Supposedly that will work on 40 meters. I have an IC7100 in my truck that I use with an SG-7900 for 2m / 70cm. No HF as of yet, but it is possible on mobile installations, though performance is obviously reduced on a short antenna. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 3, 2019, 10:46, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Keith, > 40 meters seems to be the best , usually around 7.235 MHz. in the evening. I have a plan to put my rig on the sub, but have to get a different antenna. The antenna I have now is the back stay of the sailboat ( about 30' long) and I'm using the icom AH4 antenna tuner which requires the antenna to be at least 24' long and I can't get that on the sub . > > Brian > kk6irc > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 19:06:59 -0700 > > Brian, > > What band/frequency do you hang out on? > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles > Date: 4/2/19 3:34 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > > Keith (k6fee) Do you have a Ham radio yet ? > > Brian > > kk6irc > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available > Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 15:00:50 -0700 > > INMHO the only safe way to use a HFC cooler is to have the unit in a sealed box under vacuum, chilling water that is pumped to fan coils. If there is a leak, an alarm ( pressure & HFC detector activated) informs the operator so they can surface, while the sealed unit contains the refrigerant protecting the occupants. > > Keith T. > The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm. > > In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres. > > That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" >> Date: 4/2/19 11:33 AM (GMT-08:00) >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available >> >> Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) [ImageViewer](https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D) Seems like it is classified as a Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "An asphyxiant gas is a nontoxic or minimally toxic [gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas) which reduces or displaces the normal [oxygen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen) concentration in breathing [air](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_composition). " >> >> https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D >> >> ImageViewer >> >> What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly. >> >> Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if all the HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft? >> >> Cliff >> >> On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items. >> >> If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric. >> >> Keith T. >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) >> To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available >> >> Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil .... >> >> Cliff >> >> On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Allen, >> >> Check these out. >> >> http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE >> >> http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20 >> >> Keith T. >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles >> Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) >> To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available >> >> To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread. >> Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of Islamorada in August of 2017. > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 14:05:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 18:05:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rudders In-Reply-To: <20190403085828.DB2092F8@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190403085828.DB2092F8@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <469205404.16259356.1554314723520@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, they look pretty pro!Hank On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 9:58:44 AM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I finally got my rudders sorted out.? I made two fiberglass rudders , or actually I guess they are keels since they are stationary, mainly to keep me on track going straight, as my motor pods effect the turning of the sub.? Anyway , I use a Vinyl Ester polyester resin with 8 layers of 8 oz fiberglass on each side, and then finished it off with finishing resin with blue pigment.?? Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 15:41:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 12:41:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rudders In-Reply-To: <469205404.16259356.1554314723520@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190403085828.DB2092F8@m0117565.ppops.net> <469205404.16259356.1554314723520@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Looks good! How long did it take you to complete that construction? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:06 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, they look pretty pro! > Hank > > On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, 9:58:44 AM MDT, Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All, > I finally got my rudders sorted out. I made two > fiberglass rudders , or actually I guess they are keels since they are > stationary, mainly to keep me on track going straight, as my motor pods > effect the turning of the sub. Anyway , I use a Vinyl Ester polyester > resin with 8 layers of 8 oz fiberglass on each side, and then finished it > off with finishing resin with blue pigment. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 16:04:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 09:04:51 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, I have done a bit of experimentation with cooling other components like large LEDs & high powered mosfets, & certainly water is the best option. If the peltiers are mounted against the hull tightly & below the water line I don't think an external heat sink would be necessary. With the LEDs it is important to screw them tight to a smooth flat heat sink with a smear of heat transfer paste, or they burn out pretty quickly. Good point about the paint. Depending on how thick it is. If you have an Infrared thermometer ( great tool) you (or I ) could measure the cool side of the peltier against a painted & unpainted metal surface. I will hunt around & see what scraps of metal I have. The cold side should be less cold if the heat is not being transferred from the other side. Alec says that he doesn't think anything would have had much impact on the high temperatures generated in the sub. Perhaps some sort of exostructure or fibreglass shell that protects the hull from direct sunlight. Or reflective paint top side? Alan > On 4/04/2019, at 1:43 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > ... and will the hull be a sufficient heat sink given the paint which insulates? Maybe one of the aluminum heat sinks that come with the peltier kits from China, one of the long flat ones, attached outside the hull opposite the inside chips. > > Larry Niven's SF book "Ringworld" came to mind as that's how the engineers cooled their structure, big fins stuck out into space. Not an engineer, but I've stayed at certain hotels and knew Poul Anderson. :-) > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 16:05:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 13:05:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Rudders Message-ID: <20190403130504.DB216752@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 3 23:38:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 11:38:24 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty sure your calculations are off. Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. Marc On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system > on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 > as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W > to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are > more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between > sides. > > > > > On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > >> Alan, >> >> How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda >> planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a >> thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't >> thought fiberglass. Doh.? The real reason is I picked up for free a >> vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. >> >> As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you >> can get a home depot. Attach where needed.? Spread heat transfer paste >> on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for >> condensation runoff? >> >> For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can >> plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core >> warm, etc. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 00:42:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 17:42:56 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> Hello Marc, haven't heard from you for a while. What calculation was off? Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. 4 X 2980 = 11,920. Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. Alan > On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Pretty sure your calculations are off. > > Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. > > Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. > > Marc > >> On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system >> on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 >> as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W >> to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are >> more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. >>> On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>> Alan, >>> >>> How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. >>> >>> As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? >>> >>> For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 01:03:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 18:03:53 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> References: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> Am thinking about having 2 snorkel valves for cooling in transit. One for air in & one for air out, with a descent blower circulating the air. Any thoughts on how effective it would be? Hugh Fulton had a snorkel valve design on his Q-sub site but can't find it. Assume you would need a hollow ball that floats up & seals the inlet & an additional valve inside the hull for redundancy, with a blower on the designated Inlet. Alan > On 4/04/2019, at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hello Marc, > haven't heard from you for a while. > What calculation was off? > Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. > Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. > 4 X 2980 = 11,920. > Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of > batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. > I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel > system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. > Alan > >> On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Pretty sure your calculations are off. >> >> Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. >> >> Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. >> >> Marc >> >>> On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system >>> on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 >>> as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W >>> to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are >>> more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. >>>> On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>>> Alan, >>>> >>>> How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. >>>> >>>> As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? >>>> >>>> For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 03:41:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 20:41:58 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> References: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> Ok, while you guys have been sleeping I have been googling for a suitable snorkel valve, & come up with this Wagner item below. I searched under "inverted vent check valve". I am not sure of the price of the below item. If anyone knows of a good option I would be interested. Maybe there is a suitable valve that can be hacked! Ie. Use the valve seat & buy a hollow stainless ball. Alan https://wagerusa.com/pages/marine/1700series.html > On 4/04/2019, at 6:03 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am thinking about having 2 snorkel valves for cooling in transit. > One for air in & one for air out, with a descent blower circulating the air. > Any thoughts on how effective it would be? > Hugh Fulton had a snorkel valve design on his Q-sub site but can't find it. > Assume you would need a hollow ball that floats up & seals the inlet & > an additional valve inside the hull for redundancy, with a blower on the designated > Inlet. > Alan > > >> On 4/04/2019, at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hello Marc, >> haven't heard from you for a while. >> What calculation was off? >> Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. >> Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. >> 4 X 2980 = 11,920. >> Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of >> batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. >> I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel >> system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. >> Alan >> >>> On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Pretty sure your calculations are off. >>> >>> Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. >>> >>> Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. >>> >>> Marc >>> >>>> On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system >>>> on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 >>>> as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W >>>> to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are >>>> more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. >>>>> On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>>>> Alan, >>>>> >>>>> How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. >>>>> >>>>> As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? >>>>> >>>>> For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> -- >>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 405467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 04:39:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 21:39:07 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> References: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Have been thinking about the ball valve hack into a snorkel valve. If you look at the cut away of a 3 piece stainless ball valve below, you could replace the ball ( which has a hole down the middle) with a smaller hollow stainless ball, remove the seal at one end & drill holes around the third section ( where there is now no seal ) & that would be it. Put some mesh over the intake if you felt it was necessary. May also need to shorten the tap spindle. Alan > On 4/04/2019, at 8:41 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Ok, while you guys have been sleeping I have been googling for a > suitable snorkel valve, & come up with this Wagner item below. > I searched under "inverted vent check valve". I am not sure of the price of > the below item. > If anyone knows of a good option I would be interested. > Maybe there is a suitable valve that can be hacked! Ie. Use the valve seat > & buy a hollow stainless ball. > Alan > https://wagerusa.com/pages/marine/1700series.html > > >> On 4/04/2019, at 6:03 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Am thinking about having 2 snorkel valves for cooling in transit. >> One for air in & one for air out, with a descent blower circulating the air. >> Any thoughts on how effective it would be? >> Hugh Fulton had a snorkel valve design on his Q-sub site but can't find it. >> Assume you would need a hollow ball that floats up & seals the inlet & >> an additional valve inside the hull for redundancy, with a blower on the designated >> Inlet. >> Alan >> >> >>> On 4/04/2019, at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hello Marc, >>> haven't heard from you for a while. >>> What calculation was off? >>> Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. >>> Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. >>> 4 X 2980 = 11,920. >>> Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of >>> batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. >>> I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel >>> system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. >>> Alan >>> >>>> On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Pretty sure your calculations are off. >>>> >>>> Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. >>>> >>>> Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. >>>> >>>> Marc >>>> >>>>> On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system >>>>> on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 >>>>> as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W >>>>> to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are >>>>> more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. >>>>>> On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>>>>> Alan, >>>>>> >>>>>> How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. >>>>>> >>>>>> As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? >>>>>> >>>>>> For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 74587 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 17:57:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 10:57:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> References: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ff701d4eb31$5fce7dc0$1f6b7940$@gmail.com> Alan, that is not rated for a depth. Kittredge already has a design. Mine is a variation of his but 2". There are no pressure ratings on the balls. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2019 8:42 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat Ok, while you guys have been sleeping I have been googling for a suitable snorkel valve, & come up with this Wagner item below. I searched under "inverted vent check valve". I am not sure of the price of the below item. If anyone knows of a good option I would be interested. Maybe there is a suitable valve that can be hacked! Ie. Use the valve seat & buy a hollow stainless ball. Alan https://wagerusa.com/pages/marine/1700series.html image1.PNG On 4/04/2019, at 6:03 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Am thinking about having 2 snorkel valves for cooling in transit. One for air in & one for air out, with a descent blower circulating the air. Any thoughts on how effective it would be? Hugh Fulton had a snorkel valve design on his Q-sub site but can't find it. Assume you would need a hollow ball that floats up & seals the inlet & an additional valve inside the hull for redundancy, with a blower on the designated Inlet. Alan On 4/04/2019, at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello Marc, haven't heard from you for a while. What calculation was off? Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. 4 X 2980 = 11,920. Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. Alan On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Pretty sure your calculations are off. Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. Marc On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan, How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 405467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 19:17:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 12:17:15 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat In-Reply-To: <0ff701d4eb31$5fce7dc0$1f6b7940$@gmail.com> References: <7057B2DA-2C39-4D71-8D0E-442DC82ECF22@yahoo.com> <01CE0FDF-EF01-4F05-9134-EDF025089E2E@yahoo.com> <48387D41-2C47-4CA3-8814-FE3F33F31D77@yahoo.com> <0ff701d4eb31$5fce7dc0$1f6b7940$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A248CD8-F06C-4CF5-B1E7-7B8D6AF62DDE@yahoo.com> Hugh, was hoping you were out there. Couldn't find your snorkel valve on your site, how do I find it thanks & what price? ( alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com ) Where would I find the Kittredge design? Yes I would have to come up with a solution for 500psi but that was a starter. What do you think about my idea of using a 3 part ball valve & replacing the ball. It could be an inexpensive option if I bought an appropriate replacement hollow ball & pressure tested it. Of course there is a back up ball valve inside the hull that is also closed when diving so a failure of the snorkel valve would result in a bit of water coming In to the hull when I opened the hull stop valve on surfacing. Thanks Alan > On 5/04/2019, at 10:57 AM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, that is not rated for a depth. Kittredge already has a design. Mine is a variation of his but 2?. > There are no pressure ratings on the balls. Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2019 8:42 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pulled thread line - submarine AC and heat > > Ok, while you guys have been sleeping I have been googling for a > suitable snorkel valve, & come up with this Wagner item below. > I searched under "inverted vent check valve". I am not sure of the price of > the below item. > If anyone knows of a good option I would be interested. > Maybe there is a suitable valve that can be hacked! Ie. Use the valve seat > & buy a hollow stainless ball. > Alan > https://wagerusa.com/pages/marine/1700series.html > > > On 4/04/2019, at 6:03 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Am thinking about having 2 snorkel valves for cooling in transit. > One for air in & one for air out, with a descent blower circulating the air. > Any thoughts on how effective it would be? > Hugh Fulton had a snorkel valve design on his Q-sub site but can't find it. > Assume you would need a hollow ball that floats up & seals the inlet & > an additional valve inside the hull for redundancy, with a blower on the designated > Inlet. > Alan > > > > On 4/04/2019, at 5:42 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hello Marc, > haven't heard from you for a while. > What calculation was off? > Peltiers are 1/4 as efficient as conventional AC. > Average car AC system uses 4hp which is 2,980W. > 4 X 2980 = 11,920. > Wish it was off as I have bought 20 so far & I am going to need a lot of > batteries to keep up with a cars AC system. > I am starting to talk myself out of relying on them solely & in to a good snorkel > system that I could suck air through while transiting on the surface. > Alan > > On 4/04/2019, at 4:38 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Pretty sure your calculations are off. > > Did some work with Peltier effect coolers a few years back. > > Search for information on this technology as applied in the military. There are many applications for which vapor-compression refrigeration is not possible or too dangerous. > > Marc > > On 03/04/2019 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I don't know how many peltiers. If you based your air conditioning system > on a car which uses 4 hp or 2,980 Watts & factored in that peltiers are 1/4 > as efficient as conventional air conditioning then you would need 11,920 W > to get the equivalent cooling! And then it's an unknown as the peltiers are > more efficient when there is a larger temperature differential between sides. > On 3/04/2019, at 12:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Alan, > > How many peltier chips do you think you'll use? Or need? I was kinda planning the same idea, but was trying Kydex. I made a cover with a thin sheet of clear plastic, but I wondered about durability. Hadn't thought fiberglass. Doh. The real reason is I picked up for free a vacuum thermomolding machine and needed an excuse to play. > > As per attachment I was thinking magnets, the chrome covered ones you can get a home depot. Attach where needed. Spread heat transfer paste on the surface, etc. How will you attach yours? Building in piping for condensation runoff? > > For heat I'm going with a cigarette lighter socket into which I can plug my heated vest I use on cold days on the Harley. Keep the core warm, etc. > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 21:35:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 18:35:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question Message-ID: <20190404183550.EA198945@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 4 21:51:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 21:51:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question In-Reply-To: <20190404183550.EA198945@m0117567.ppops.net> References: <20190404183550.EA198945@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: You just put down a bead of silicone sealant before tightening them onto the hull with a strap. Like all of Kittredge's solutions, it's straight forward and works perfectly. Best, Alec On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, On the K boats , how do those front and back ballast hoods seal > to against the hull? - just curious. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 5 11:25:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 15:25:51 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yong Heng compressor - cheap remote fills Message-ID: Picked this up, delivered with shipping, for $260.00 US. Added a larger filter for activated charcoal and micro pore sieve pellets. Don't plan to breath air from it, but should work nicely to refill tanks when on the road. I'll let you know! https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv4Ox10BI8-/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ggzwkpkvvbvm Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 5 11:45:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:45:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yong Heng compressor - cheap remote fills In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For $260.00, if it works at all, I would call it a good deal. Might want to put it in an explosion-enclosure, just in case, lol. I'll be curious to know how fast it can fill an eighty. I bought a small gas-powered SCUBA compressor for about 3K and it takes about 20 minutes per tank. If this thing is anywhere near 20 minutes or less, I'm going to feel like I got ripped off! ~ Doug On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:28 AM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Picked this up, delivered with shipping, for $260.00 US. Added a larger > filter for activated charcoal and micro pore sieve pellets. Don't plan to > breath air from it, but should work nicely to refill tanks when on the > road. I'll let you know! > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv4Ox10BI8-/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ggzwkpkvvbvm > > Brian > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 5 13:11:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 07:11:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yong Heng compressor - cheap remote fills In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let us know it's cfm and is it electric? looking for something like that to fill scuba tanks while on my sailboat, Doug's price seems more like what I have been seeing,. Rick On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:46 AM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > For $260.00, if it works at all, I would call it a good deal. Might want > to put it in an explosion-enclosure, just in case, lol. > > I'll be curious to know how fast it can fill an eighty. I bought a small > gas-powered SCUBA compressor for about 3K and it takes about 20 minutes per > tank. If this thing is anywhere near 20 minutes or less, I'm going to feel > like I got ripped off! ~ Doug > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:28 AM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Picked this up, delivered with shipping, for $260.00 US. Added a larger >> filter for activated charcoal and micro pore sieve pellets. Don't plan to >> breath air from it, but should work nicely to refill tanks when on the >> road. I'll let you know! >> >> >> >> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv4Ox10BI8-/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ggzwkpkvvbvm >> >> Brian >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 5 13:33:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:33:17 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yong Heng compressor - cheap remote fills Message-ID: It's electric, this one 110v. Google Yong Heng compressor. All manner of YouTube opinions. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 5 17:42:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:42:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yong Heng compressor - cheap remote fills In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sweet, the fill time would be interesting. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 10:12 AM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Let us know it's cfm and is it electric? looking for something like that > to fill scuba tanks while on my sailboat, Doug's price seems more like what > I have been seeing,. > Rick > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 5:46 AM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> For $260.00, if it works at all, I would call it a good deal. Might want >> to put it in an explosion-enclosure, just in case, lol. >> >> I'll be curious to know how fast it can fill an eighty. I bought a small >> gas-powered SCUBA compressor for about 3K and it takes about 20 minutes per >> tank. If this thing is anywhere near 20 minutes or less, I'm going to feel >> like I got ripped off! ~ Doug >> >> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:28 AM Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Picked this up, delivered with shipping, for $260.00 US. Added a larger >>> filter for activated charcoal and micro pore sieve pellets. Don't plan to >>> breath air from it, but should work nicely to refill tanks when on the >>> road. I'll let you know! >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv4Ox10BI8-/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ggzwkpkvvbvm >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 17:57:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold References: <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361@mail.yahoo.com> Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 18:58:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 15:58:13 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Message-ID: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 19:13:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 13:13:54 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: Jon Are your tanks inside or out? Mine are outside and I break them down to LP before they come inside so I just made my own custom SS pipe manifold using schedule 40 pipe. Rick On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > McMaster Carr > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) > > > Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air? I'm having > a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range. > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 19:29:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 23:29:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: References: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2001353042.18280413.1554679762978@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I have upgraded my HP single steel tank to a pair of aluminum 80"s ? I am not confident that Gamma's original manifold can handle the higher pressure. ?I have installed a pressure regulator to drop the pressure on the intake side ?of the manifold. ?There is a benefit to that-the valves will seal easier with the reduced pressure. ?There is also less chance for a leak to develop with the reduced pressure.Hank On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 5:14:21 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: JonAre your tanks inside or out?Mine are outside and I break them down to LP before they come inside so I just made my own custom? SS pipe manifold using schedule 40 pipe.Rick On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: McMaster Carr? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 19:53:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2019 23:53:16 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Message-ID: <0c63cb1552c47b6026b3cc2ad2b2836bec5cdaf6@webmail> I found some dealers who supply scuba tank filling stations. Actually the paintball industry is another source. This should get you close. Thanks, Steve -----------------------------------------From: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Cc: Sent: Sunday April 7 2019 5:57:34PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 20:03:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 00:03:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: References: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <985147300.1022866.1554681828671@mail.yahoo.com> Two 80 cu ft Aluminum tanks inside the cabin.? What did you use for a pressure reducer? From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold JonAre your tanks inside or out?Mine are outside and I break them down to LP before they come inside so I just made my own custom? SS pipe manifold using schedule 40 pipe.Rick On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: McMaster Carr? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 20:08:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 00:08:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <466709166.1035023.1554682126604@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Brian.? Good source, found a manifold in no time. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold McMaster Carr? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 7 20:35:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 00:35:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: <466709166.1035023.1554682126604@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190407155813.EA187875@m0117565.ppops.net> <466709166.1035023.1554682126604@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2040006675.1148021.1554683741363@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,My 80"s are outside the hull and I use a 6000 psi regulator inside the hull.Hank On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 6:09:04 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Brian.? Good source, found a manifold in no time. From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold McMaster Carr? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 21:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 8 09:14:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 13:14:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1677851482.18556547.1554729274215@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, see attached ballast circuit diagram for my boat.? I use Swagelok fitting, valves and SS tubing to build all HP air and O2 manifolds. Swagelok fittings are available on Ebay at a fraction of their retail cost.? Can easily spec part at their website https://www.swagelok.com/en.? Also you an requested the Swagelok manual for free which is also good way to get the right part number. HP SS tubing is readily available at many sources in including Grainger stores also any store that sells hydraulic supplies has SS tubing. Cliff On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 4:58:45 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: R300-D02-002 Ballast Circuit.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 77127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 8 11:53:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 15:53:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold In-Reply-To: <1677851482.18556547.1554729274215@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1923172760.1000990.1554674254361@mail.yahoo.com> <1677851482.18556547.1554729274215@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1788003794.1333681.1554738828724@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Cliff! From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pneumatic HP manifold Jon, see attached ballast circuit diagram for my boat.? I use Swagelok fitting, valves and SS tubing to build all HP air and O2 manifolds. Swagelok fittings are available on Ebay at a fraction of their retail cost.? Can easily spec part at their website https://www.swagelok.com/en.? Also you an requested the Swagelok manual for free which is also good way to get the right part number. HP SS tubing is readily available at many sources in including Grainger stores also any store that sells hydraulic supplies has SS tubing. Cliff On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 4:58:45 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Where are people sourcing their manifolds for HP ballast air?? I'm having a difficult finding anything in the 3500 to 5000 range._______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 06:52:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:52:32 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question In-Reply-To: References: <20190404183550.EA198945@m0117567.ppops.net> Message-ID: I poked an O ring into the groove and shoved it in hard. Probably about a 6mm O ring. The idea was that i could get the tanks off easier without the silicone mess. The O ring works fine, but i havent taken the tanks off, and have no intention of, so probably silicone is just fine. On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 02:52, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > You just put down a bead of silicone sealant before tightening them onto > the hull with a strap. Like all of Kittredge's solutions, it's straight > forward and works perfectly. > > Best, > Alec > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, On the K boats , how do those front and back ballast hoods >> seal to against the hull? - just curious. >> >> Brian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 11:09:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 08:09:15 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question Message-ID: <20190409080915.EA1976CB@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 12:25:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 16:25:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question In-Reply-To: <20190409080915.EA1976CB@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190409080915.EA1976CB@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1419005877.572935.1554827137922@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, the K600 use some kind of caulking sealer on the bow tank and a self sticking rubber strip, sort of like window stripping but not very compressible, on the stern tank.? No clue if it was intentional or not.? Perhaps the rubber strip on the stern end was just temporary. On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,? ?On the K boats ,? how do those front and back ballast hoods seal to against the hull?? ?- just curious. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 17:03:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 17:03:34 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Message-ID: ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... Brian From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 18:05:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 18:05:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this for your comms? I should be able to lend you one. Best, Alec Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that. Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders. And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ... I'm open to other alternatives. Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 18:28:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:28:08 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, I am not sure if there was a thread prior to this, I am feeling I have been missing a few emails. What sort of connectors? High power? Have you looked at using blue globe cable glands? I have made up connectors that have been tested to 1000psi, but I thought a lot about how to do it properly & used expoxy, polyeurathane & a special PVC glue to adhere to the cable jacket. I looked at a video of Doug Jacksons on home made through hulls & he was getting a lot of failures, so not as easy as you think. There are Chinese companies making connectors for ROVs if you search on the Ali express site. However unless you get something tailor made you still have the problem of how to waterproof the end that doesn't attach to the hull, But may go to your lights or whatever. Cheers Alan > On 10/04/2019, at 9:03 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that. Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders. And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ... I'm open to other alternatives. Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 9 18:23:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1641589870.821589.1554848590757@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,?Do you need connectors or penetrators? ?I make all my own penetrators. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 3:03:52 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 02:53:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:53:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <1641589870.821589.1554848590757@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1641589870.821589.1554848590757@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1745717110.967033.1554879213718@mail.yahoo.com> I think he's trying to conform to a PSUBS design guideline for a universal comms connector, ie OTS, and finding that the part we spec'd out is difficult to get. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Brian,?Do you need connectors or penetrators? ?I make all my own penetrators. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 3:03:52 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 06:54:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:54:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Message-ID: Yep Jon, trying to install Subconn to be in line with PSubs specs. I can and have made my own. No problem there. But I can see the value of having several spec bulkhead connectors, especially as innerspacescience is picking up opportunities. For example: the Flathead, MT expedition. Lets say the researchers have a sensor they want to hang on the outside. Specs and easily obtained whip on their end would help in their prep for our arrival. But now we know that option, for now, wouldn't be available to them. The guy in California didn't sound hopeful, at least for the near term. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 09:01:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:01:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1880586773.654301.1554901307311@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, I suggest you contact Jacobo Aguilar at MacArtney.? His email address is Jag at macartney.com.? MacArtney is one of the biggest distributors for SubConn parts and their web site is actually better for describing SubConn parts than SubConns.? They keep a lot of the SubConn parts in inventory which potentially could solve your lead time issue.? Mention that you are with Psub.org and request Psub discount. Best Cliff On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 4:04:44 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs compliant. So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 10:18:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:18:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Message-ID: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> If by Macartney you mean their office in Boston, MA ? that?s one of the places I called yesterday. The woman I spoke with echoed the information I received from their California distributor ? One IL4M in stock, no bulkhead connectors ? 12 weeks minimum is when they start filling backorders. I?ll shoot your guy an email, but ? Brian Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 11:13:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 16:13:01 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question In-Reply-To: <20190409080915.EA1976CB@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190409080915.EA1976CB@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: Hi Brian No, ive never had a leak. It seems to work really well. I did add sikaflex to the outside of the seal mind. ie on the OD of the hull against where it meets the tank. So perhaps any tiny leaks are stopped by that? I honestly dont know. On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 16:10, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Ever get any leaks in that area? > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:52:32 +0100 > > I poked an O ring into the groove and shoved it in hard. Probably about a > 6mm O ring. The idea was that i could get the tanks off easier without the > silicone mess. The O ring works fine, but i havent taken the tanks off, > and have no intention of, so probably silicone is just fine. > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 02:52, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > You just put down a bead of silicone sealant before tightening them onto > the hull with a strap. Like all of Kittredge's solutions, it's straight > forward and works perfectly. > > Best, > Alec > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, On the K boats , how do those front and back ballast hoods seal > to against the hull? - just curious. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 12:13:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 16:13:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1613984039.780028.1554912786742@mail.yahoo.com> MacArtney is a big subsea supplier based out of Houston.? They are an authourisezed distributor for SubConn parts.? MacArtney keeps a lot of Subconn parts in inventory.? IT may be the parts you need are in their stock.? Worth a try.? I have used them (MacArney) for years. Cliff On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 9:19:09 AM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? If by Macartney you mean their office in Boston, MA ? that?s one of the places I called yesterday.? The woman I spoke with echoed the information I received from their California distributor ? ?One IL4M in stock, no bulkhead connectors ? 12 weeks minimum is when they start filling backorders. ? I?ll shoot your guy an email, but ? ? Brian ? ? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 13:19:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:19:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Subconn is only at 12 weeks? It was 18 last I asked. Seaconn quoted 26! Teledyne underwater cable company is asking for a $1200 minimum order PER LINE ITEM. Wet matable circular connectors were invented in the 1960s for Trieste 2. Most companies connectors are actually interchangeable, because they are mostly copies of the Trieste connector. You would think they would be commoditized and readily available by now. Or that the manufacturers would atleast stock common sizes, instead of doing custom everything. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F273422626457 I have been looking at these on ebay. I haven't purchased or tested any, so I cant vouch for the reliability. They also only sell connectors, not the cable assemblies. You could purchase 2 bulkhead ends, wire them to a wiring harness, then connect the bulkheads with oil filled vinyl tubing and hose clamps. That's standard practice with ROV's but messy and not 100% reliable. They typically sell connectors with barbed ends for that purpose, although im willing to be the threaded ends would work with a stretchy enough hose. River J Dolfi Rdolfi7 at gmail.com On Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 5:55 AM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) > 3. Re: SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) > 4. Re: SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) > 5. Re: SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) > 6. Re: SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 17:03:34 -0400 > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two > of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months > and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of > back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make > Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 18:05:49 -0400 > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Is this for your comms? I should be able to lend you one. > > Best, > Alec > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 9, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that. Fellow in California remarked that two of > the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and > connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders. > And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs > compliant. > > > > So ... I'm open to other alternatives. Don't hate me PSubs .... > > > > Brian > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:28:08 +1200 > From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Brian, > I am not sure if there was a thread prior to this, I am feeling I > have been missing a few emails. > What sort of connectors? High power? > Have you looked at using blue globe cable glands? > I have made up connectors that have been tested to 1000psi, but I thought > a lot about how to do it properly & used expoxy, polyeurathane & a special > PVC glue to adhere to the cable jacket. > I looked at a video of Doug Jacksons on home made through hulls & he was > getting a lot of failures, so not as easy as you think. > There are Chinese companies making connectors for ROVs if you search on > the Ali express site. However unless you get something tailor made you > still > have the problem of how to waterproof the end that doesn't attach to the > hull, > But may go to your lights or whatever. > Cheers Alan > > > > On 10/04/2019, at 9:03 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > > Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that. Fellow in California remarked that two of > the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months and > connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of back-orders. > And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make Harold PSubs > compliant. > > > > So ... I'm open to other alternatives. Don't hate me PSubs .... > > > > Brian > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:23:10 +0000 (UTC) > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: <1641589870.821589.1554848590757 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Brian,?Do you need connectors or penetrators? ?I make all my own > penetrators. ?Hank > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 3:03:52 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two > of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months > and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of > back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make > Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20190409/26a19e3c/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:53:33 +0000 (UTC) > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: <1745717110.967033.1554879213718 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > I think he's trying to conform to a PSUBS design guideline for a universal > comms connector, ie OTS, and finding that the part we spec'd out is > difficult to get. > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:11 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > > Brian,?Do you need connectors or penetrators? ?I make all my own > penetrators. ?Hank > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 3:03:52 PM MDT, Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two > of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months > and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of > back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make > Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20190410/6d98a2b8/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:54:49 +0000 > From: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles > > To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors > Message-ID: > < > DM5PR03MB3066AE6C99DBA75AA6BB3B30F02E0 at DM5PR03MB3066.namprd03.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yep Jon, trying to install Subconn to be in line with PSubs specs. I can > and have made my own. No problem there. But I can see the value of having > several spec bulkhead connectors, especially as innerspacescience is > picking up opportunities. > > For example: the Flathead, MT expedition. Lets say the researchers have a > sensor they want to hang on the outside. Specs and easily obtained whip on > their end would help in their prep for our arrival. But now we know that > option, for now, wouldn't be available to them. > > The guy in California didn't sound hopeful, at least for the near term. > > Brian > > Get Outlook for Android > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20190410/a6875f15/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 70, Issue 33 > ***************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 14:14:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:14:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <1613984039.780028.1554912786742@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190410181455.8W0ZL.73826.root@cdptpa-web08> I also used MacArtney. They seemed to have the general stuff in stock. Wiring whips took a while longer. I even ordered a connector (1 piece) with a custom thread length. It took awhile (6-8wks) but I got it with not major upcharges. Good customer service. Thanks, Steve ---- Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > MacArtney is a big subsea supplier based out of Houston.? They are an authourisezed distributor for SubConn parts.? MacArtney keeps a lot of Subconn parts in inventory.? IT may be the parts you need are in their stock.? Worth a try.? I have used them (MacArney) for years. > Cliff > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 9:19:09 AM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > ? > > If by Macartney you mean their office in Boston, MA ? that?s one of the places I called yesterday.? The woman I spoke with echoed the information I received from their California distributor ? ?One IL4M in stock, no bulkhead connectors ? 12 weeks minimum is when they start filling backorders. > > ? > > I?ll shoot your guy an email, but ? > > ? > > Brian > > ? > > ? > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 14:20:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:20:00 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190410182000.3WF90.73860.root@cdptpa-web08> I am planning on attaching my K250 tank shells soon. I was going to go with Sikaflex but decided to use Alec's approach of a more general sealant (easier to remove) between the fiberglass and hull. My plan is to be generous with the application. Thanks, Steve ---- James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Brian > No, ive never had a leak. It seems to work really well. I did add > sikaflex to the outside of the seal mind. ie on the OD of the hull against > where it meets the tank. So perhaps any tiny leaks are stopped by that? I > honestly dont know. > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 16:10, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Ever get any leaks in that area? > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > > > From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] k350 question > > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:52:32 +0100 > > > > I poked an O ring into the groove and shoved it in hard. Probably about a > > 6mm O ring. The idea was that i could get the tanks off easier without the > > silicone mess. The O ring works fine, but i havent taken the tanks off, > > and have no intention of, so probably silicone is just fine. > > > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 02:52, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > You just put down a bead of silicone sealant before tightening them onto > > the hull with a strap. Like all of Kittredge's solutions, it's straight > > forward and works perfectly. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Hi All, On the K boats , how do those front and back ballast hoods seal > > to against the hull? - just curious. > > > > Brian > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 14:21:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:21:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <1880586773.654301.1554901307311@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190410182133.HOUYS.73871.root@cdptpa-web08> FYI< I recently got the Psub discount from them. No issues. Thanks, Steve ---- Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Brian, I suggest you contact Jacobo Aguilar at MacArtney.? His email address is Jag at macartney.com.? MacArtney is one of the biggest distributors for SubConn parts and their web site is actually better for describing SubConn parts than SubConns.? They keep a lot of the SubConn parts in inventory which potentially could solve your lead time issue.? Mention that you are with Psub.org and request Psub discount. > Best > Cliff > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 4:04:44 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > ?Contacted their offices in California and Massachusetts: no joy - 12 > weeks at the soonest. If that.? Fellow in California remarked that two > of the largest connector companies imploded in the last couple of months > and connectors are really hard to find and they have a list of > back-orders.? And here I decided to join the cool kids club and make > Harold PSubs compliant. > > So ...? I'm open to other alternatives.? Don't hate me PSubs .... > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 14:34:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 08:34:03 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] fuses Message-ID: I have noticed that a couple of people building K subs had put their main fuse for their batteries inside the battery pod before the power comes threw into the hill and was wondering if there was an advantage to that over having the main fuse just inside the hull?? Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 15:03:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 07:03:23 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> Brian, I have some spares sitting around. But I am in NZ & are going away in 5hrs time for 8 days. If you send me your address in time, I could post them. As per photo, the cable is not that long. alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Cheers Alan > On 11/04/2019, at 2:18 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > If by Macartney you mean their office in Boston, MA ? that?s one of the places I called yesterday. The woman I spoke with echoed the information I received from their California distributor ? One IL4M in stock, no bulkhead connectors ? 12 weeks minimum is when they start filling backorders. > > I?ll shoot your guy an email, but ? > > Brian > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1670789 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 10 15:33:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 19:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> I called MacCartney and talked to the manager there who happens to be the wife of the previous manager that set us up with the discount.? She said a competitor went out of business which has created a huge draw on their manufacturing capacity.? She assured me that our small orders are not preempted by orders for 20,000 units.? She did say most items are on a 12-16 week back order. I will offer the following if anyone thinks it might help for the future...perhaps we could take some of our member dues money and use it to purchase some units that we keep locally to avoid this in the future.? Only problem is, I really do not want to be responsible for shipping.? Someone we know and trust would have to volunteer to hold the stock and ship items when our members order them. Otherwise, we will just have to wait patiently. Jon#yiv9201311544 #yiv9201311544 -- _filtered #yiv9201311544 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9201311544 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv9201311544 #yiv9201311544 p.yiv9201311544MsoNormal, #yiv9201311544 li.yiv9201311544MsoNormal, #yiv9201311544 div.yiv9201311544MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv9201311544 a:link, #yiv9201311544 span.yiv9201311544MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9201311544 a:visited, #yiv9201311544 span.yiv9201311544MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9201311544 .yiv9201311544MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv9201311544 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9201311544 div.yiv9201311544WordSection1 {}#yiv9201311544 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 15:50:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 09:50:58 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Was wondering if it is better to have the main fuse/circuit breaker inside the battery pod or just inside the hull or does it make any difference. I really lack in the electrical side of things. Rick On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:34 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I called MacCartney and talked to the manager there who happens to be the > wife of the previous manager that set us up with the discount. She said a > competitor went out of business which has created a huge draw on their > manufacturing capacity. She assured me that our small orders are not > preempted by orders for 20,000 units. She did say most items are on a > 12-16 week back order. > > I will offer the following if anyone thinks it might help for the > future...perhaps we could take some of our member dues money and use it to > purchase some units that we keep locally to avoid this in the future. Only > problem is, I really do not want to be responsible for shipping. Someone > we know and trust would have to volunteer to hold the stock and ship items > when our members order them. > > Otherwise, we will just have to wait patiently. > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 16:05:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:05:11 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Remember, on boats, and in submersibles, you want to have an ungrounded electrical system (no continuity between battery negative and hull / equipment chassis protective earth), and you will want main fuses / breakers on both the positive and the negative leads coming from the battery. Ideally, you want these protective devices as close to the battery bank(s) as possible, but accessable so that you can replace fuses or reset the breakers if you happened to cause the short or it is otherwise repairable before going live again. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 12, 2019, 13:50, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Was wondering if it is better to have the main fuse/circuit breaker inside the battery pod or just inside the hull or does it make any difference. I really lack in the electrical side of things. > Rick > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:34 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I called MacCartney and talked to the manager there who happens to be the wife of the previous manager that set us up with the discount. She said a competitor went out of business which has created a huge draw on their manufacturing capacity. She assured me that our small orders are not preempted by orders for 20,000 units. She did say most items are on a 12-16 week back order. >> >> I will offer the following if anyone thinks it might help for the future...perhaps we could take some of our member dues money and use it to purchase some units that we keep locally to avoid this in the future. Only problem is, I really do not want to be responsible for shipping. Someone we know and trust would have to volunteer to hold the stock and ship items when our members order them. >> >> Otherwise, we will just have to wait patiently. >> >> Jon >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 16:15:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:15:30 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold's redesigned redneck Air Conditioner Message-ID: Rainy day off so played. Larger than a potential peltier unit, but it works and is simple to make. Brian https://www.instagram.com/p/BwKx2YNh6aQ/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1jes1hmya0g0t Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 16:35:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:35:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, I have been very careful not to use the hull as a ground for obvious reasons but was just wondering if there was any drawbacks to having the breakers for the battery's attached to the lugs as soon as they inter the hull? I would prefure them to be inside because they would be easier to replace or reset plus I have a lot more room for them. Why do both pos and neg need to be protected with fuses? Rick On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:05 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Remember, on boats, and in submersibles, you want to have an ungrounded > electrical system (no continuity between battery negative and hull / > equipment chassis protective earth), and you will want main fuses / > breakers on both the positive and the negative leads coming from the > battery. Ideally, you want these protective devices as close to the battery > bank(s) as possible, but accessable so that you can replace fuses or reset > the breakers if you happened to cause the short or it is otherwise > repairable before going live again. > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 12, 2019, 13:50, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Was wondering if it is better to have the main fuse/circuit breaker inside > the battery pod or just inside the hull or does it make any difference. I > really lack in the electrical side of things. > Rick > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:34 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I called MacCartney and talked to the manager there who happens to be the >> wife of the previous manager that set us up with the discount. She said a >> competitor went out of business which has created a huge draw on their >> manufacturing capacity. She assured me that our small orders are not >> preempted by orders for 20,000 units. She did say most items are on a >> 12-16 week back order. >> >> I will offer the following if anyone thinks it might help for the >> future...perhaps we could take some of our member dues money and use it to >> purchase some units that we keep locally to avoid this in the future. Only >> problem is, I really do not want to be responsible for shipping. Someone >> we know and trust would have to volunteer to hold the stock and ship items >> when our members order them. >> >> Otherwise, we will just have to wait patiently. >> >> Jon >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 16:57:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:57:44 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Message-ID: <20190412135744.403E393@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 17:46:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:46:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold's redesigned redneck Air Conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5229F207-E267-4245-B21C-427CD7EBD14F@yahoo.com> Very good Brian, they work for cars so no doubt you'll get some benefit. I have concluded (for now) that I will have snorkel valves with a fan to pump air in through them. And also peltiers for dehumidification, extra cooling & heating. The snorkels will mean I can close the hatch fully when transiting on the surface, keep cool & not need life support on. Cheers Alan > On 13/04/2019, at 8:15 AM, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rainy day off so played. Larger than a potential peltier unit, but it works and is simple to make. > > Brian > > https://www.instagram.com/p/BwKx2YNh6aQ/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1jes1hmya0g0t > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 18:14:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:14:46 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5cadfb26.1c69fb81.db807.5993@mx.google.com> <414BC09D-E566-4FD9-89B1-7A4A6D8A193A@yahoo.com> <282324067.1336386.1554924795244@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It isn't strictly necessary to fuse both terminals under ordinary conditions. Doing so just extends the fault tolerance of the electrical system. A single fuse or breaker on either leg at the battery will protect against a DC high current short provided the fuse is in series somewhere in that short circuit. In a grounded electrical system, such as most automotive systems which have the battery negative terminal connected directly to the vehicle chassis, you actually can't fuse the negative side because if that negative fuse blows before the positive side fuse, then you still have a return current path through installed equipment such as radios etc., and that smaller wiring could start a fire if subjected to short circuit current. In the floating system (marine systems), the second fuse is permissible. Fusing both legs provides protection for shorts which might occur at the terminals themselves, or at the bus bars or main feeders which exist between the battery bank terminals and the circuit breaker / fuse box. If your battery shifts, or your sustain a seawater leak, for example, which produces a fault right at the positive terminal in off-board battery pods, the negative side fuse would protect the vessel in the event of a second fault. The only condition which is not protected by this configuration is a fault directly between terminals or bus bars / mains between the battery and the protection devices. If you are using circuit breakers instead of fuses, you want a breaker which interrupts both leads in response to a failure of either one. A non-grounded, or floating, electrical system is inherently single-fault tolerant, because any short between one battery terminal (positive or negative) and your hull will not cause current flow. You actually need two simultaneous failures (or a bridge between potentials) for a high current fault to occur, which provides for the ability to continuously monitor continuity between each potential and the hull, and throw an alarm to indicate the presence of such a single fault. The fuses or circuit breakers provide protection for the double-fault, and if you have a triple fault, you're going to have a bad day. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Friday, April 12, 2019 2:35 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean, > I have been very careful not to use the hull as a ground for obvious reasons but was just wondering if there was any drawbacks to having the breakers for the battery's attached to the lugs as soon as they inter the hull? I would prefure them to be inside because they would be easier to replace or reset plus I have a lot more room for them. > Why do both pos and neg need to be protected with fuses? > Rick > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:05 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Remember, on boats, and in submersibles, you want to have an ungrounded electrical system (no continuity between battery negative and hull / equipment chassis protective earth), and you will want main fuses / breakers on both the positive and the negative leads coming from the battery. Ideally, you want these protective devices as close to the battery bank(s) as possible, but accessable so that you can replace fuses or reset the breakers if you happened to cause the short or it is otherwise repairable before going live again. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 12, 2019, 13:50, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Was wondering if it is better to have the main fuse/circuit breaker inside the battery pod or just inside the hull or does it make any difference. I really lack in the electrical side of things. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:34 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> I called MacCartney and talked to the manager there who happens to be the wife of the previous manager that set us up with the discount. She said a competitor went out of business which has created a huge draw on their manufacturing capacity. She assured me that our small orders are not preempted by orders for 20,000 units. She did say most items are on a 12-16 week back order. >>>> >>>> I will offer the following if anyone thinks it might help for the future...perhaps we could take some of our member dues money and use it to purchase some units that we keep locally to avoid this in the future. Only problem is, I really do not want to be responsible for shipping. Someone we know and trust would have to volunteer to hold the stock and ship items when our members order them. >>>> >>>> Otherwise, we will just have to wait patiently. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 18:47:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:47:10 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold's redesigned redneck Air Conditioner Message-ID: I like it. Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 12 20:13:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:13:18 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubConn BH4F and IL4M Connectors Message-ID: <20190412171318.4038217@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 15:49:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 07:49:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive Message-ID: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 15:53:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 09:53:29 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank Are you happy with how the arm works? Do you know what you total financial outlay was to put it together? Rick On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:50 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Hank, > See on Facebook you have been diving! > Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. > How deep did you go etc. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 18:31:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 22:31:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. ?I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. ?I also had to add an expansion bladder.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 18:33:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 22:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1033512749.940596.1555281207664@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I am pretty darn pleased with it. ?It cost about 1,300 dollars.hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:53:59 PM MDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank Are you happy with how the arm works? Do you know what you total financial outlay was to put it together?Rick On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:50 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 19:21:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 11:21:16 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, what are the advantages of the linear actuators over a hydraulic manipulator. Is it just smoothness of control? No large valves? If you have to have hoses to the actuator for compensation, which you would have for hydraulics anyway, then is there much more of an advantage. You would need to find a linear actuator with a stainless piston rod. I am wanting to build a manipulator but still vacillating over the various options! Cheers Alan > On 15/04/2019, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. I also had to add an expansion bladder. > Hank > > On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > See on Facebook you have been diving! > Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. > How deep did you go etc. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 19:22:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:22:32 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <1033512749.940596.1555281207664@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <1033512749.940596.1555281207664@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you have drawings and specs that you could send out so others in the group could make one? Rick On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 12:34 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, I am pretty darn pleased with it. It cost about 1,300 dollars. > hank > > On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:53:59 PM MDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank > > Are you happy with how the arm works? Do you know what you total financial > outlay was to put it together? > Rick > > On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:50 AM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Hank, > See on Facebook you have been diving! > Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. > How deep did you go etc. > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 20:10:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:10:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1549595497.970565.1555287036338@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,I can help anyone build this, but I rarely draw things like this. ?I take an idea and a bunch of parts and go for it.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 5:21:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,what are the advantages of the linear actuators over a hydraulic manipulator.Is it just smoothness of control? No large valves? ?If you have to have hoses to the actuator for compensation, which you would have for hydraulics anyway, thenis there much more of an advantage. You would need to find a linear actuator witha stainless piston rod.I am wanting to build a manipulator but still vacillating over the various options!Cheers Alan? On 15/04/2019, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. ?I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. ?I also had to add an expansion bladder.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 20:17:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:17:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1950877911.2997740.1555287428900@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Advantages are huge, there is no pump or valves and the speed control is just amazing. ?The actuators have ss shafts. ?It takes about 1\2 hr to modify an actuator to oil or air compensation. ?You take it apart and drill a passage way in the body so air or oil can flow to the entire cavity. ?Then you make up a bunch of penetrators with a 1/4 in pipe fitting with two wires each. ?You also have to drill a port in the housing for the air or oil line, and you do that while it apart. ?If your sub has external scuba tanks with a first stage regulator, then air compensation is the way to go. ?If you don't have that set up go with oil. ?Just depends how your sub is set up.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 5:21:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,what are the advantages of the linear actuators over a hydraulic manipulator.Is it just smoothness of control? No large valves? ?If you have to have hoses to the actuator for compensation, which you would have for hydraulics anyway, thenis there much more of an advantage. You would need to find a linear actuator witha stainless piston rod.I am wanting to build a manipulator but still vacillating over the various options!Cheers Alan? On 15/04/2019, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. ?I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. ?I also had to add an expansion bladder.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 20:50:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 12:50:50 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <1950877911.2997740.1555287428900@mail.yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> <1950877911.2997740.1555287428900@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F5A8890-FB2E-4F9F-802C-02F3017647E9@yahoo.com> Thanks Hank, I believe you are using the Lenco actuators that have the ball bearing system at the end of the stroke. If anyone is going to emulate you, this is a good but expensive option. A word of warning about using other linear actuators; some use micro switches to control the stroke limit & there is the possibility that they could trigger under pressure if you are pressure compensating the inside of the actuator. I drilled a hole in to the limit switches in one of my actuators because of this concern. Would be a problem if you grabbed hold of a large object & couldn't let go. Also the small brushed motors in my actuators didn't work well in oil. Alan > On 15/04/2019, at 12:17 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > Advantages are huge, there is no pump or valves and the speed control is just amazing. The actuators have ss shafts. It takes about 1\2 hr to modify an actuator to oil or air compensation. You take it apart and drill a passage way in the body so air or oil can flow to the entire cavity. Then you make up a bunch of penetrators with a 1/4 in pipe fitting with two wires each. You also have to drill a port in the housing for the air or oil line, and you do that while it apart. If your sub has external scuba tanks with a first stage regulator, then air compensation is the way to go. If you don't have that set up go with oil. Just depends how your sub is set up. > Hank > > On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 5:21:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > what are the advantages of the linear actuators over a hydraulic manipulator. > Is it just smoothness of control? No large valves? If you have to have hoses to the actuator for compensation, which you would have for hydraulics anyway, then > is there much more of an advantage. You would need to find a linear actuator with > a stainless piston rod. > I am wanting to build a manipulator but still vacillating over the various options! > Cheers Alan > > On 15/04/2019, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Alan, >> It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. I also had to add an expansion bladder. >> Hank >> >> On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> See on Facebook you have been diving! >> Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. >> How deep did you go etc. >> Alan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 14 21:09:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 01:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hank's Dive In-Reply-To: <2F5A8890-FB2E-4F9F-802C-02F3017647E9@yahoo.com> References: <35ED14D1-23C4-4F82-8C73-E12D440C97E5@yahoo.com> <61157447.2306097.1555281114546@mail.yahoo.com> <1950877911.2997740.1555287428900@mail.yahoo.com> <2F5A8890-FB2E-4F9F-802C-02F3017647E9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1415161609.1227240.1555290562183@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,Yes they are Lenco, but I don't find them expensive for the quality.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 6:51:14 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank,I believe you are using the Lenco actuators that have the ball bearing systemat the end of the stroke. If anyone is going to emulate you, this is a good butexpensive option.?A word of warning about using other linear actuators; some use micro switchesto control the stroke limit & there is the possibility that they could trigger underpressure if you are pressure compensating the inside of the actuator.I drilled a hole in to the limit switches in one of my actuators because of this concern.Would be a problem if you grabbed hold of a large object & couldn't let go.Also the small brushed motors in my actuators didn't work well in oil.Alan On 15/04/2019, at 12:17 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,Advantages are huge, there is no pump or valves and the speed control is just amazing. ?The actuators have ss shafts. ?It takes about 1\2 hr to modify an actuator to oil or air compensation. ?You take it apart and drill a passage way in the body so air or oil can flow to the entire cavity. ?Then you make up a bunch of penetrators with a 1/4 in pipe fitting with two wires each. ?You also have to drill a port in the housing for the air or oil line, and you do that while it apart. ?If your sub has external scuba tanks with a first stage regulator, then air compensation is the way to go. ?If you don't have that set up go with oil. ?Just depends how your sub is set up.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 5:21:37 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,what are the advantages of the linear actuators over a hydraulic manipulator.Is it just smoothness of control? No large valves? ?If you have to have hoses to the actuator for compensation, which you would have for hydraulics anyway, thenis there much more of an advantage. You would need to find a linear actuator witha stainless piston rod.I am wanting to build a manipulator but still vacillating over the various options!Cheers Alan? On 15/04/2019, at 10:31 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,It was a shallow dive to get the sub balanced and ready for a job I have coming up. ?I had to make proper electric penetrators to keep the oil in. ?I also had to add an expansion bladder.Hank On Sunday, April 14, 2019, 1:49:38 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, See on Facebook you have been diving! Wondering what modifications you had to do on your electric arm. How deep did you go etc. Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 15 16:35:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:35:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. ?I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. ?Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. ?The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. ?I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. ?I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. ?It has solved the problem completely. ?In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. ?With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. ?Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. ?First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. ?Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. ?Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 15 17:28:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 09:28:05 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I have solenoid valves in my ambient & they worked really well. I controlled them off a PlayStation 2 controller. Mine were designed for air & were a quick solution at the time. I have pulled a few apart & the internal parts are susceptible to Corrosion. A diaphragm spring comes to mind. Yours may be different. I have designed a home made version that I am hoping will be more robust. Alan > On 16/04/2019, at 8:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 15 18:19:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 22:19:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1009687051.4113929.1555366746005@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,If I were in salt water I would worry about corrosion also, but in fresh water they are fine. ?Having said that, I will make an oil filled enclosure. ?There is not a serious risk if a valve failed. ?Gamma can surface with the drop weight and the escape pod bladder.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 3:28:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I have solenoid valves in my ambient & they worked really well.I controlled them off a PlayStation 2 controller.Mine were designed for air & were a quick solution at the time.I have pulled a few apart & the internal parts are susceptible to?Corrosion. A diaphragm spring comes to mind.Yours may be different. I have designed a home made version?that I am hoping will be more robust.Alan On 16/04/2019, at 8:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. ?I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. ?Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. ?The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. ?I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. ?I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. ?It has solved the problem completely. ?In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. ?With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. ?Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. ?First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. ?Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. ?Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 15 19:06:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:06:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1009687051.4113929.1555366746005@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <1009687051.4113929.1555366746005@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A7A825B-C4E3-479A-9BB8-73D07AEF68E3@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, I water proofed the solenoid & electrical sections but the problem was a small orifice that re-routed some of the water around a diaphragm in the Valve mechanism, even though this wasn't a pressure assisted solenoid valve. I remember Hugh looking at this option in detail, & I don't think he found a suitable off the shelf option. As you say, we will be mainly diving in salt water & need something more robust. Alan > On 16/04/2019, at 10:19 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > If I were in salt water I would worry about corrosion also, but in fresh water they are fine. Having said that, I will make an oil filled enclosure. There is not a serious risk if a valve failed. Gamma can surface with the drop weight and the escape pod bladder. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 3:28:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > I have solenoid valves in my ambient & they worked really well. > I controlled them off a PlayStation 2 controller. > Mine were designed for air & were a quick solution at the time. > I have pulled a few apart & the internal parts are susceptible to > Corrosion. A diaphragm spring comes to mind. > Yours may be different. I have designed a home made version > that I am hoping will be more robust. > Alan > >> On 16/04/2019, at 8:35 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. >> >> My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 15 21:39:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:39:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 01:15:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 00:15:02 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] U505 Submarine Message-ID: Hi Guys had an oppertunity to visit the U505 submarine museum in Chicago, and took the tour. Quite an amazing vessel. If anybody would like copies of the photos I took, let me know. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image1192466280781798288.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 373238 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image6202251164062747821.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 374713 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 05:16:27 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 09:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. ?Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. ?Turns out I only need two. ?The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. ?Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0692.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2460185 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 05:32:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 09:32:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1869445788.156811.1555407169954@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, ?this might be a duplicate email. ?The pneumatic valves are in E3000, so your memory is intact ;-) ? I needed to experiment first with the solenoid valves first. ?Turns out I only need two valves. ?I like the pneumatic valves except for the plumbing, regulating and valving. ?I like how simple the solenoid valves are and making an oil filled enclosure would be pretty easy. ?I think I will delete two of the valves for safety for now and think about it some more.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 06:45:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 06:45:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am > experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air > lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric > valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I > don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and > regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled > housing is built. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new > valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me > (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you > change that or am I wrong? > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 07:53:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:53:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1869445788.156811.1555407169954@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <1869445788.156811.1555407169954@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1196822677.1357351.1555415581688@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, have you spec'd a particular solenoid yet? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 5:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves Hi Alec, ?this might be a duplicate email. ?The pneumatic valves are in E3000, so your memory is intact ;-) ? I needed to experiment first with the solenoid valves first. ?Turns out I only need two valves. ?I like the pneumatic valves except for the plumbing, regulating and valving. ?I like how simple the solenoid valves are and making an oil filled enclosure would be pretty easy. ?I think I will delete two of the valves for safety for now and think about it some more.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 08:29:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 12:29:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1196822677.1357351.1555415581688@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <1869445788.156811.1555407169954@mail.yahoo.com> <1196822677.1357351.1555415581688@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1795155708.218633.1555417785430@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jon,I just bought 4 1inch solenoid valves off amazon.ca ?and so far they are great.Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 5:53:21 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, have you spec'd a particular solenoid yet? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 5:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves Hi Alec, ?this might be a duplicate email. ?The pneumatic valves are in E3000, so your memory is intact ;-) ? I needed to experiment first with the solenoid valves first. ?Turns out I only need two valves. ?I like the pneumatic valves except for the plumbing, regulating and valving. ?I like how simple the solenoid valves are and making an oil filled enclosure would be pretty easy. ?I think I will delete two of the valves for safety for now and think about it some more.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 08:32:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 12:32:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. ?Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 09:55:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 08:55:32 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, Did you use Brass or Stainless Steel? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 7:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my > log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. > Not one single failure. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about > the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure > prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am > experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air > lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric > valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I > don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and > regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled > housing is built. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new > valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me > (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you > change that or am I wrong? > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 10:01:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 10:01:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, > I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my > log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. > Not one single failure. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about > the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure > prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am > experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air > lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric > valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I > don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and > regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled > housing is built. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new > valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me > (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you > change that or am I wrong? > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 10:11:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 14:11:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> David,I used cheap brass valves,?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 10:11:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 14:11:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1479806168.271924.1555423912615@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,You got me there lol On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 10:26:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 09:26:05 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > David, > I used cheap brass valves, > Hank > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yes, but I meant in salt water. > > :) > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my > log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. > Not one single failure. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about > the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure > prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am > experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air > lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric > valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I > don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and > regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled > housing is built. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new > valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me > (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you > change that or am I wrong? > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image8871981334760983293.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 142447 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 11:54:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1576995829.357294.1555430093034@mail.yahoo.com> David,That looks like the ones I got. ?I wasn't to worried about pressure rating because there is only a slight pressure difference from side to side on them in this application.Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:26:39 AM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I used cheap brass valves,?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 14:36:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:36:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <1576995829.357294.1555430093034@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <1576995829.357294.1555430093034@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, thats what I thought. David On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 10:55 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, > That looks like the ones I got. I wasn't to worried about pressure rating > because there is only a slight pressure difference from side to side on > them in this application. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:26:39 AM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > David, > I used cheap brass valves, > Hank > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Yes, but I meant in salt water. > > :) > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my > log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. > Not one single failure. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about > the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure > prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alec, > The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am > experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air > lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric > valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I > don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and > regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled > housing is built. > Hank > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Hank, > > Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new > valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me > (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you > change that or am I wrong? > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent > lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized > that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues > but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was > having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. > I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could > not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving > closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an > experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two > valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the > two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow > compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. > > My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am > planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will > dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger > port assembly. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 15:04:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 19:04:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] U505 Submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2126465934.1608579.1555441453621@mail.yahoo.com> I'll take some pniedermayr at yahoo.com On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 5:19:47 AM GMT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys had an oppertunity to visit the U505 submarine museum in Chicago, and took the tour. Quite an amazing vessel. If anybody would like copies of the photos I took, let me know._______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 15:13:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 19:13:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale References: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am going to the Nuytco O2 meter, so I am selling my two Altair 4X meters with one brand new O2 sensor still in the package. ?the Kit includes a calibration gas tank and adaptor. ?I am asking 500 Canadian for both meters and accessories. ?Price the meters etc on Amazon and see the price for new ones.ThanksHank?picture will follow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 15:13:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:13:57 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi David, that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate without the help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above. Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won't dive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self acting was one. Cheers Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? > >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> David, >> I used cheap brass valves, >> Hank >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Yes, but I meant in salt water. >> >> :) >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. Not one single failure. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> >> Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. >> >> My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 15:26:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 19:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> Mine are 12V and work fineHank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David,that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate withoutthe help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above.Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won'tdive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self actingwas one.Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I used cheap brass valves,?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 15:59:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 19:59:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <702527305.1641967.1555444756088@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, do you have manufacturer and model number? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves Mine are 12V and work fineHank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David,that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate withoutthe help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above.Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won'tdive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self actingwas one.Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I used cheap brass valves,?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 16:06:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:06:37 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502AF63B-8340-4C37-AFC9-9DA9126D6FA5@yahoo.com> This link has an explanation on direct acting & pilot operated valves. There is another name like force activated, but forgotten. I had the 12V pilot operated valves for letting pressurized air from my tanks in to the ballast tanks, but the 24V direct acting valves for venting the ballast tanks. They have specs on minimum system pressure required to open. So if you read the specs you won't go wrong. But in my searches I had to go to 24V for a direct acting solenoid. http://valveproducts.net/solenoid-valve/types-of-solenoid-valve Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 7:26 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Mine are 12V and work fine > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi David, > that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate without > the help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above. > Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won't > dive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self acting > was one. > Cheers Alan > >> On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> David, >> I used cheap brass valves, >> Hank >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Yes, but I meant in salt water. >> >> :) >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. Not one single failure. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> >> Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. >> >> My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 16:21:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:21:58 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21A23BF2-3F97-4D9F-AAC8-AD11A56B15F8@yahoo.com> Another thought is that there may be enough system pressure with the weight of the sub compressing the air in your ballast tanks, to initially operate a pilot operated valve; but the air pressure in the ballast tank would be diminishing as you flooded the tank. You may find if you stop flooding & start again the valve wouldn't work! Cheers Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 7:26 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Mine are 12V and work fine > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi David, > that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate without > the help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above. > Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won't > dive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self acting > was one. > Cheers Alan > >> On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> David, >> I used cheap brass valves, >> Hank >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Yes, but I meant in salt water. >> >> :) >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. Not one single failure. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. >> >> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Alec, >> The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built. >> Hank >> >> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Hank, >> >> Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi All, >> When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. >> >> My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 16:47:48 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:47:48 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <21A23BF2-3F97-4D9F-AAC8-AD11A56B15F8@yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> <21A23BF2-3F97-4D9F-AAC8-AD11A56B15F8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Might I suggest: https://www.asco.com/en-us/Pages/solenoid-valves.aspx# I have extensive experience using these Asco valves - specifically the electronically enhanced line in 24 VDC, but there are lots of options. The catalogs all list a minimum operation pressure, so anything with a zero in that column should work. Check out the navy / marine line. Though specs say 115 VAC, most of these can be ordered with a 24 VDC coil. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 16, 2019, 14:21, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Another thought is that there may be enough system pressure with > the weight of the sub compressing the air in your ballast tanks, to > initially operate a pilot operated valve; but the air pressure in the ballast tank > would be diminishing as you flooded the tank. You may find if you stop > flooding & start again the valve wouldn't work! > Cheers Alan > > On 17/04/2019, at 7:26 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Mine are 12V and work fine >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi David, >> that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate without >> the help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above. >> Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won't >> dive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self acting >> was one. >> Cheers Alan >> >> On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> I used cheap brass valves, >>>> Hank >>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, but I meant in salt water. >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Alec, >>>>> I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. Not one single failure. >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Alec, >>>>>> The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built. >>>>>> Hank >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Hank, >>>>>> >>>>>> Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. >>>>>>> Hank >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 16:53:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:53:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <21A23BF2-3F97-4D9F-AAC8-AD11A56B15F8@yahoo.com> References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> <105773619.480575.1555442797021@mail.yahoo.com> <21A23BF2-3F97-4D9F-AAC8-AD11A56B15F8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <530898592.542014.1555447989749@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I guess I just got lucky then because they work no problem and I start and stop them often to keep the sub level and to test the functionality.Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:22:22 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Another thought is that there may be enough system pressure withthe weight of the sub compressing the air in your ballast tanks, toinitially operate a pilot operated valve; but the air pressure in the ballast tankwould be diminishing as you flooded the tank. You may find if you stop?flooding & start again the valve wouldn't work!Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 7:26 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Mine are 12V and work fineHank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 1:14:24 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi David,that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate withoutthe help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above.Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won'tdive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self actingwas one.Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David,I used cheap brass valves,?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,?I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end.? Not one single failure. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ?;-) ? I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines.? Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in.? Turns out I only need two.? The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving.? Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built.Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec? On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines.? I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock.? Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but ?at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral.? The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging.? I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage.? I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment.? It has solved the problem completely.? In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now.? With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds.? Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000.? First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop.? Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool.? Then I can work on a larger port assembly.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 16:56:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:56:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> Jon, ?here is what I boughtHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDTSubject: 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve? https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:04:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:04:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> References: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <770726029.543213.1555448646802@mail.yahoo.com> I guess I got lucky because it says 0 to 1 mpa ?working pressure?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:57:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, ?here is what I boughtHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDTSubject: 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve? https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:08:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:08:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valve In-Reply-To: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> References: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <652930692.1666861.1555448922980@mail.yahoo.com> Well that seems to make sense Hank since it is direct acting, so no pressure differential required.? I can't find any specs on it though, curious about duration of energizing it.? I'm sure long enough to dump air for our submarines but usually there's a recommended limit.?? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 4:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Jon, ?here is what I boughtHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDTSubject: 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve?https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:18:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:18:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <770726029.543213.1555448646802@mail.yahoo.com> References: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> <770726029.543213.1555448646802@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BC1FF8F-EFCC-4AB8-BC29-A10D3DD02060@yahoo.com> Hank, yes you were lucky lol. You got the direct acting which I thought started at a minimum of 24V. I would pull one apart & see what can rust though. Even the navy solenoids that Sean linked to need a bit of modification, as the solenoids were rated to 15ft underwater. Cheers Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 9:04 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I guess I got lucky because it says 0 to 1 mpa working pressure > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:57:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, here is what I bought > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: xxx xxxxx > To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDT > Subject: > > 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve > https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:20:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:20:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valve In-Reply-To: <652930692.1666861.1555448922980@mail.yahoo.com> References: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> <652930692.1666861.1555448922980@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2047397477.536945.1555449630709@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,They should be continues duty, plus they are water cooledHank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 3:09:00 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Well that seems to make sense Hank since it is direct acting, so no pressure differential required.? I can't find any specs on it though, curious about duration of energizing it.? I'm sure long enough to dump air for our submarines but usually there's a recommended limit.?? From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 4:58 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Jon, ?here is what I boughtHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDTSubject: 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve?https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:21:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:21:56 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valve In-Reply-To: <652930692.1666861.1555448922980@mail.yahoo.com> References: <396496860.545750.1555448216124@mail.yahoo.com> <652930692.1666861.1555448922980@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, good thinking. I made a solenoid valve & bought solenoids for testing & they get very hot very quickly. Hence the reason they would normally require at least 24V on the direct acting solenoids to reduce the amps. Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 9:08 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Well that seems to make sense Hank since it is direct acting, so no pressure differential required. I can't find any specs on it though, curious about duration of energizing it. I'm sure long enough to dump air for our submarines but usually there's a recommended limit. > > > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 4:58 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > > Jon, here is what I bought > Hank > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: xxx xxxxx > To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDT > Subject: > > 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve > https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:35:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:35:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: <12939503.2491218.1555360503496.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <12939503.2491218.1555360503496@mail.yahoo.com> <2142242890.176937.1555406188018@mail.yahoo.com> <1376293480.232005.1555417961029@mail.yahoo.com> <413703560.289525.1555423883620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <057401d4f49c$5c7a2010$156e6030$@gmail.com> I got a Parker solenoid valve for testing. The terminology is direct acting. Then it has no dp for opening. I had issues with the Comsub. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2019 7:14 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves Hi David, that one was 12V. In my experience the solenoids that activate without the help of air / water pressure were all 24V & above. Ie. If there is not enough pressure in the air in your ballast tank you won't dive. There is a couple of terminologies for this type. I think self acting was one. Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 2:26 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, this one on amazon is rated at .8mpa. Is yours rated for more? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:12 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: David, I used cheap brass valves, Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 8:02:20 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Yes, but I meant in salt water. :) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:33 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, I am sure I have mentioned it before, but, I used solenoid valves on my log salvage ROV that dove 200 feet deep every 7 minutes for months on end. Not one single failure. Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 4:45:46 AM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Ah, I didn't realize that was on the other sub! Yes, you're right about the simplicity of electrical. But pneumatic tends to be MUCH less failure prone in my opinion. Bottom line, both work. On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:19 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, The pneumatic valves are on E3000, so your memory is intact. ;-) I am experimenting with the solenoids mostly and you were correct about an air lock in the lines. Now I have to decide if I want to enclose the electric valves or put pneumatic valves in. Turns out I only need two. The thing I don't like about the pneumatic valves is all the darn plumbing and regulating and valving. Electric is so simple once a nice oil filled housing is built. Hank On Monday, April 15, 2019, 7:39:34 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Hank, Great the new valves work so well. I recall you posting photos of a new valve during the winter, but unless my memory is playing tricks on me (which it does) I recall a small pneumatic ram, not a solenoid. Did you change that or am I wrong? Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:36 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, When we were in Lake Tahoe, Alec asked if I get an air lock in my MBT vent lines. I said no, but that got me thinking, and I may not have realized that I was getting a air lock. Normally I dive Gamma heavy with no issues but at Lake Tahoe I was diving very close to neutral. The problem I was having at Lake Tahoe, was the sub leaning uncomfortable while submerging. I blame that on the weight of the sub and since the sub was light it could not push the water out of the vent lines casing a blockage. I like diving closer to neutral now so I installed 4 solenoid vent valves as an experiment. It has solved the problem completely. In fact I only need two valves to make it sink perfectly now. With all four valves open plus the two original valves open, the sub dives in 1 min and 30 seconds. Slow compared to Alec's sub but good for Gamma. My next challenge is to install a bigger port in E3000. First I am planning a proper poured concrete test pool in my new shop. Then I will dive E3000 a couple million times in the pool. Then I can work on a larger port assembly. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 17:39:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:39:55 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves Message-ID: My no holds barred solution would be to use one of the electronically enhanced 24 VDC solenoids for the lowest possible current draw / best electrical behaviour, to supply the pilot pressure to an air operated valve. This inherently provides a backup mechanism that doesn't depend on electricity if you also plumb air to that pilot line via a manual valve. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 16, 2019, 15:18, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hank, > yes you were lucky lol. > You got the direct acting which I thought started at a minimum of 24V. > I would pull one apart & see what can rust though. > Even the navy solenoids that Sean linked to need a bit of modification, > as the solenoids were rated to 15ft underwater. > Cheers Alan > > On 17/04/2019, at 9:04 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I guess I got lucky because it says 0 to 1 mpa working pressure >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:57:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Jon, here is what I bought >> Hank >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: xxx xxxxx >> To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDT >> Subject: >> >> 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve >> >> [https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1](https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2Fdp%2FB01GKX76HA%2Fref%3Dpe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 14:33:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 14:33:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] U505 Submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/16/2019 1:15 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Guys had an oppertunity to visit the U505 submarine museum in > Chicago, and took the tour. Quite an amazing vessel. If anybody would > like copies of the photos I took, let me know. I'd like to have copies.?? mholt at ohiohills.com Thanks. Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 18:27:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <940995291.592782.1555453631582@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I will run them for a while and decide what to do. ?I like my air valves on E3000, just not all the crap that goes with them to work. ?I can make oil filled enclosures easy enough also. ?I am planning a 250 foot dive Sunday and will see how they work. ?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 3:40:20 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: My no holds barred solution would be to use one of the electronically enhanced 24 VDC solenoids for the lowest possible current draw / best electrical behaviour, to supply the pilot pressure to an air operated valve. This inherently provides a backup mechanism that doesn't depend on electricity if you also plumb air to that pilot line via a manual valve. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 16, 2019, 15:18, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Hank,yes you were lucky lol.You got the direct acting which I thought started at a minimum of 24V.I would pull one apart & see what can rust though.Even the navy solenoids that Sean linked to need a bit of modification,as the solenoids were rated to 15ft underwater.Cheers Alan On 17/04/2019, at 9:04 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I guess I got lucky because it says 0 to 1 mpa ?working pressure?Hank On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:57:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon, ?here is what I boughtHank ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: xxx xxxxx To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDTSubject: 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve? https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 16 20:11:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:11:49 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] solenoid valves In-Reply-To: <940995291.592782.1555453631582@mail.yahoo.com> References: <940995291.592782.1555453631582@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DDCA85F-DAB2-4CF6-B991-FBE445DC87DC@yahoo.com> Hank, they will work ok, as you have the direct acting ( & you have tested them) There are so many different models out there that I couldn't comment on whether one is likely to rust out or not over another. I just remember that my direct acting was more complicated than expected & had a small diaphragm & spring in them that was liable to corrosion. Some of my ballast fill solenoids got water in them ( should have had a check valve) & have rusted. If I could find a good off the shelf option I would go for it. Alan > On 17/04/2019, at 10:27 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I will run them for a while and decide what to do. I like my air valves on E3000, just not all the crap that goes with them to work. I can make oil filled enclosures easy enough also. I am planning a 250 foot dive Sunday and will see how they work. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 3:40:20 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > My no holds barred solution would be to use one of the electronically enhanced 24 VDC solenoids for the lowest possible current draw / best electrical behaviour, to supply the pilot pressure to an air operated valve. This inherently provides a backup mechanism that doesn't depend on electricity if you also plumb air to that pilot line via a manual valve. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 16, 2019, 15:18, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hank, > yes you were lucky lol. > You got the direct acting which I thought started at a minimum of 24V. > I would pull one apart & see what can rust though. > Even the navy solenoids that Sean linked to need a bit of modification, > as the solenoids were rated to 15ft underwater. > Cheers Alan > > > >> On 17/04/2019, at 9:04 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I guess I got lucky because it says 0 to 1 mpa working pressure >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:57:15 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Jon, here is what I bought >> Hank >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: xxx xxxxx >> To: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019, 2:55:44 PM MDT >> Subject: >> >> 4x Baomain 1 inch DC 12V Brass Electric Solenoid Valve Water Air Fuels NC Valve >> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=2HGCBYFONUBF3&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190220181721884c6cc22cfe450c929003da3610p0na&R=3A7CCWYQZ1HW6&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01GKX76HA/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1&H=STLFF3IBADOSLNARVJP0NABQBY8A&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1 >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 17 21:12:25 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 18:12:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Message-ID: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 17 21:40:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 01:40:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump References: <1952209582.1305121.1555551649678.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1952209582.1305121.1555551649678@mail.yahoo.com> Lot of trouble when your topside crew could just use a shop vacuum on a spare penetrator--pull the vacuum, close the valve, set the seats, and let it hold for a leak check--sounds like a good boat ramp?pre-dive prep to meVance -----Original Message----- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Hi All,?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I have this little pressure pump for my internal ballast and I'm wondering if I could use it to pull a vacuum?on my sub.? I was thinking it would be nice to do before I submerge, to seal the hatch.? The pump I have is a 100W? 12volt pump that puts out 150psi and a flow of 8L / min.? ?Would I need to expel?water to pull the vacuum?? ?My internal ballast is about 5 1/2 gallons .? Not sure if the pump would pump air efficiently. Brian ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 17 21:56:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 18:56:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Message-ID: <20190417185654.23F4E180@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 00:26:34 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:26:34 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump In-Reply-To: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <16A2C5D6-789B-4169-B3C5-9478E6F3E3EF@yahoo.com> Brian, you could just hook the pump up & see if you get much pressure with just air. However you may need to then read the specs to see if it needs water running through it for lubrication or cooling. I am not sure how much air you would need to pump out to give a sufficient Vacuum to set the hatch seal. Maybe that is the first question. If you know how much air you need to pump out then if you pumped out water instead it would need to be the same volume. Alan > On 18/04/2019, at 1:12 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I have this little pressure pump for my internal ballast and I'm wondering if I could use it to pull a vacuum on my sub. I was thinking it would be nice to do before I submerge, to seal the hatch. The pump I have is a 100W 12volt pump that puts out 150psi and a flow of 8L / min. Would I need to expel water to pull the vacuum? My internal ballast is about 5 1/2 gallons . Not sure if the pump would pump air efficiently. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 06:23:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:23:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump In-Reply-To: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2143561989.1375593.1555583029544@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,If your tank is full of water and you pump it dry, you will have negative pressure in the sub, but not much. ?It should or might seal the hatch. ? ?Hank On Wednesday, April 17, 2019, 7:12:43 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I have this little pressure pump for my internal ballast and I'm wondering if I could use it to pull a vacuum?on my sub.? I was thinking it would be nice to do before I submerge, to seal the hatch.? The pump I have is a 100W? 12volt pump that puts out 150psi and a flow of 8L / min.? ?Would I need to expel?water to pull the vacuum?? ?My internal ballast is about 5 1/2 gallons .? Not sure if the pump would pump air efficiently. Brian ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 06:35:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:35:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump References: <1852308709.1413156.1555583729256.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1852308709.1413156.1555583729256@mail.yahoo.com> By yourself? -----Original Message----- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2019 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Yeah but what if I'm in the middle of the ocean? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: via Personal_Submersibles To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 01:40:49 +0000 (UTC) Lot of trouble when your topside crew could just use a shop vacuum on a spare penetrator--pull the vacuum, close the valve, set the seats, and let it hold for a leak check--sounds like a good boat ramp?pre-dive prep to meVance -----Original Message----- From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles To: PSubs Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Hi All,?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I have this little pressure pump for my internal ballast and I'm wondering if I could use it to pull a vacuum?on my sub.? I was thinking it would be nice to do before I submerge, to seal the hatch.? The pump I have is a 100W? 12volt pump that puts out 150psi and a flow of 8L / min.? ?Would I need to expel?water to pull the vacuum?? ?My internal ballast is about 5 1/2 gallons .? Not sure if the pump would pump air efficiently. Brian ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 09:20:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:20:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump In-Reply-To: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190417181225.23F4E2CF@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1338739970.2510587.1555593617286@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, what are you using for internal ballast containers? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 10:06:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:06:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale In-Reply-To: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You need to trade me : ) [image: PC-14 Battery Pods 4.JPG] On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:14 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I am going to the Nuytco O2 meter, so I am selling my two Altair 4X meters > with one brand new O2 sensor still in the package. the Kit includes a > calibration gas tank and adaptor. I am asking 500 Canadian for both meters > and accessories. Price the meters etc on Amazon and see the price for new > ones. > Thanks > Hank > picture will follow > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PC-14 Battery Pods 4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2806936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 13:59:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:59:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Message-ID: <20190418105942.23F4FBCF@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 14:00:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Message-ID: <20190418110058.23F4FB3E@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 17:37:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 09:37:12 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump In-Reply-To: <20190418110058.23F4FB3E@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190418110058.23F4FB3E@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <44268E41-5120-45D8-B78C-EA2176674364@yahoo.com> Brian, you could do a dry run by filling a container inside your sub with water & pumping the water out & checking the barometer. ( make sure you don't get trapped) Phil told us what vacuum they pulled on the Deep Workers, & I have the email. Out of town, will look it up when I get home. Alan > On 19/04/2019, at 6:00 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Jon, I have two vertical tubes that are 4" x 48" > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:20:17 +0000 (UTC) > > Brian, what are you using for internal ballast containers? > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 17:48:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:48:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure pump Message-ID: <20190418144859.23F4C251@m0117460.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 18:30:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 22:30:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale In-Reply-To: References: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1675281230.1722453.1555626645403@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve,I will trade but not for those. ?Only because I can't use them. ?Find something else fun to trade. ?Did you check the price of those meters. ?They are 2K each new and I just bought a 300 dollar sensor for one.Hank On Thursday, April 18, 2019, 8:06:19 AM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles wrote: You need to trade me : ) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:14 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am going to the Nuytco O2 meter, so I am selling my two Altair 4X meters with one brand new O2 sensor still in the package. ?the Kit includes a calibration gas tank and adaptor.? I am asking 500 Canadian for both meters and accessories.? Price the meters etc on Amazon and see the price for new ones.ThanksHank?picture will follow_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PC-14 Battery Pods 4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2806936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 19:32:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:32:32 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale In-Reply-To: <1675281230.1722453.1555626645403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> <1675281230.1722453.1555626645403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501d4f63e$ffab03f0$ff010bd0$@telus.net> What is the price of the Nuytco O2 meters? Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 3:31 PM To: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale Hi Steve, I will trade but not for those. Only because I can't use them. Find something else fun to trade. Did you check the price of those meters. They are 2K each new and I just bought a 300 dollar sensor for one. Hank On Thursday, April 18, 2019, 8:06:19 AM MDT, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: You need to trade me : ) On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:14 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi All, I am going to the Nuytco O2 meter, so I am selling my two Altair 4X meters with one brand new O2 sensor still in the package. the Kit includes a calibration gas tank and adaptor. I am asking 500 Canadian for both meters and accessories. Price the meters etc on Amazon and see the price for new ones. Thanks Hank picture will follow _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27336 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 18 19:46:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:46:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] O2 meters for sale In-Reply-To: <1675281230.1722453.1555626645403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1858337392.493824.1555442024021.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1858337392.493824.1555442024021@mail.yahoo.com> <1675281230.1722453.1555626645403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the delay. I'm in. How best to pay? Steve On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 6:33 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > I will trade but not for those. Only because I can't use them. Find > something else fun to trade. Did you check the price of those meters. > They are 2K each new and I just bought a 300 dollar sensor for one. > Hank > > On Thursday, April 18, 2019, 8:06:19 AM MDT, Steve McQueen via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > You need to trade me : ) > [image: PC-14 Battery Pods 4.JPG] > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:14 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I am going to the Nuytco O2 meter, so I am selling my two Altair 4X meters > with one brand new O2 sensor still in the package. the Kit includes a > calibration gas tank and adaptor. I am asking 500 Canadian for both meters > and accessories. Price the meters etc on Amazon and see the price for new > ones. > Thanks > Hank > picture will follow > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PC-14 Battery Pods 4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2806936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 10:11:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 14:11:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 10:48:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 14:48:32 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank - are you referring to the ASME Safety Standard for Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (PVHO-1), or something else? PVHO-1 exhaustively details required window geometries, but the fabrication section is relatively short. It does, however, outline the required annealing schedules. I was going to sit down today and try to answer your earlier email about your intended window. Between PVHO-1 and Jerry Stachiw's Handbook of Acrylics, all the info you need is in there. The PVHO standards are available directly from ASME: https://www.asme.org/products/codes-standards/pvho1-2016-safety-standard-pressure-vessels-human Stachiw's book I imagine is available from a variety of distributors. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi All, > I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. > Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 10:49:14 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 14:49:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43915489.3551634.1555858154978@mail.yahoo.com> PVHO rules come from ASME and they don't give them away for free.? If you look hard enough you can find them online.? I've got a 2010 set someplace on my server, I'll have to dig it out though.? I'll look later this evening if you haven't found them online by that time. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 10:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 13:47:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 17:47:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <138522968.2599737.1555868833940@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,I have Stachiw's book and I have reviewed all the temperature and minimum soak times for the annealing process etc. ?There is no chart for forming temperatures and soak times. ?There is mention in the forming section of maximum forming temperature but no details. ?I may have missed it.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 8:48:54 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank - are you referring to the ASME Safety Standard for Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (PVHO-1), or something else?? PVHO-1 exhaustively details required window geometries, but the fabrication section is relatively short.? It does, however, outline the required annealing schedules.? I was going to sit down today and try to answer your earlier email about your intended window.? Between PVHO-1 and Jerry Stachiw's Handbook of Acrylics, all the info you need is in there. The PVHO standards are available directly from ASME: https://www.asme.org/products/codes-standards/pvho1-2016-safety-standard-pressure-vessels-human Stachiw's book I imagine is available from a variety of distributors. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All, I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 13:48:25 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 17:48:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <43915489.3551634.1555858154978@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <43915489.3551634.1555858154978@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1605066476.2566921.1555868905010@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,I am specifically looking for the forming rules and temperatures.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 8:49:36 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: PVHO rules come from ASME and they don't give them away for free.? If you look hard enough you can find them online.? I've got a 2010 set someplace on my server, I'll have to dig it out though.? I'll look later this evening if you haven't found them online by that time. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 10:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 14:01:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 11:01:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Message-ID: <20190421110157.23F4B3BD@m0117565.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 14:14:50 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 18:14:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <20190421110157.23F4B3BD@m0117565.ppops.net> References: <20190421110157.23F4B3BD@m0117565.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1110842571.2598420.1555870490738@mail.yahoo.com> Brian,If I form it, yes I will make a form. ?I happen to have the correct size steel head here I can use for the form. ? The window is only a hemispherical segment, so not too big. ?I have to keep it under 26 inches so the ring (seat) ?will fit in my small lathe. The oven will be the size of a old school phone booth, remember those? ;-)Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 12:02:18 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank, you need to build a big oven!? ? ? ? ? ?Are you going to form it over a big mold? ? Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 17:48:25 +0000 (UTC) Jon,I am specifically looking for the forming rules and temperatures.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 8:49:36 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: PVHO rules come from ASME and they don't give them away for free.? If you look hard enough you can find them online.? I've got a 2010 set someplace on my server, I'll have to dig it out though.? I'll look later this evening if you haven't found them online by that time. From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 10:14 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 16:28:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:28:52 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure Required is going to be used. When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker Clamping rings made. Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. > Hank > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 16:30:59 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:30:59 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE. Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: > > Hank, > I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick > cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. > At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. > Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at > forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure > Required is going to be used. > When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker > Clamping rings made. > Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. > You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. > It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. > If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? > I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. > Alan > > >> On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 16:34:26 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 13:34:26 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): *CG requirements* air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher *safety* fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system *repair kit* gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 17:40:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 21:40:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: Hank,I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thickcast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven.At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber.Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is atforming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressureRequired is going to be used.When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thickerClamping rings made.Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience.You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements.It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine.If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward?I would imagine the stress would only be superficial.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 17:54:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:54:19 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I have vague memories of seeing literature from a major acrylic manufacturer that covered forming techniques & pressure required for forming at differing thicknesses; that would be handy to seek out to know what pressures are involved for clamping the material. What diameter is this 5" thick view port? Are you going to have a room like Emile's where you heat & press in the same area? Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure. > Hank > > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE. > Alan > >> On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: >> > > Hank, > I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick > cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. > At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. > Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at > forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure > Required is going to be used. > When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker > Clamping rings made. > Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. > You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. > It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. > If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? > I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. > Alan > > >> On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 18:33:21 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:33:21 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, If it is just 3" deflection then you would need to go to a 8" thick acrylic if you machined. Just thinking there would be less waste around the perimeter on a machined dome as apposed to a pressed dome & you would need to do some machining & polishing on a pressed dome anyway. Might be a lot easier to machine it & build a small oven, or if you know a potter or glass blower with a suitable kiln, get them to anneal it. Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure. > Hank > > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE. > Alan > >> On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: >> > > Hank, > I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick > cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. > At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. > Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at > forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure > Required is going to be used. > When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker > Clamping rings made. > Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. > You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. > It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. > If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? > I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. > Alan > > >> On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. >> Hank >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 18:33:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:33:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <1605066476.2566921.1555868905010@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <43915489.3551634.1555858154978@mail.yahoo.com> <1605066476.2566921.1555868905010@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <964210179.3630967.1555886033965@mail.yahoo.com> See the 2007 rules at the link below.? I see no mention of forming rules or temperatures.? Annealing yes, forming no.? I suspect the reference to "maximum forming temperature" you saw was merely meant to mean specs from the manufacturer. https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.asme.pvho-1.2007/asme.pvho-1.2007_djvu.txt From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Jon,I am specifically looking for the forming rules and temperatures.Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 18:49:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1338250564.2630314.1555886992620@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, here is the drawing of the window, big thanks to River for helping with that. ?I think it may be easier to just machine it also . ?I have sourced the acrylic at 8 inches think already. ?I am just waiting to finalize the frame seat design before I pull the trigger.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 4:33:47 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,If it is just 3" deflection then you would need to go to a 8" thick acrylic ifyou machined.Just thinking there would be less waste around the perimeter on a machineddome as apposed to a pressed dome & you would need to do some machining& polishing on a pressed dome anyway.Might be a lot easier to machine it & build a small oven, or if you know a potteror glass blower with a suitable kiln, get them to anneal it.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: Hank,I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thickcast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven.At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber.Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is atforming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressureRequired is going to be used.When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thickerClamping rings made.Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience.You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements.It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine.If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward?I would imagine the stress would only be superficial.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20ID dome conical seat 3523fsw Rev1.1.PDF Type: application/pdf Size: 71797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 18:51:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <964210179.3630967.1555886033965@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <43915489.3551634.1555858154978@mail.yahoo.com> <1605066476.2566921.1555868905010@mail.yahoo.com> <964210179.3630967.1555886033965@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1974932033.2653676.1555887082644@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,thank you for that, I will look through it for clues.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 4:34:16 PM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: See the 2007 rules at the link below.? I see no mention of forming rules or temperatures.? Annealing yes, forming no.? I suspect the reference to "maximum forming temperature" you saw was merely meant to mean specs from the manufacturer. https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.asme.pvho-1.2007/asme.pvho-1.2007_djvu.txt From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Jon,I am specifically looking for the forming rules and temperatures.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 18:55:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:55:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <105279688.2656787.1555887304775@mail.yahoo.com> Shanee,I also carry blankets and food, and I have every tool required to replace any part of the sub interior. ?Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:35:18 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 19:23:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:23:10 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <1338250564.2630314.1555886992620@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> <1338250564.2630314.1555886992620@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F41CB8-0574-419D-9AA9-EC1F2DCCCF6D@yahoo.com> Hank, that was great of River to help out! If it were me I would definitely machine it seeing you have to machine the clamping area off on a pressed dome anyway. Way less work in every way. BTW glass artists can ramp the temperature of their kiln down over 2 weeks with thick art work. May be ideal to find a local one. I am full of suggestions lol. Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, here is the drawing of the window, big thanks to River for helping with that. I think it may be easier to just machine it also . I have sourced the acrylic at 8 inches think already. I am just waiting to finalize the frame seat design before I pull the trigger. > Hank > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 4:33:47 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > If it is just 3" deflection then you would need to go to a 8" thick acrylic if > you machined. > Just thinking there would be less waste around the perimeter on a machined > dome as apposed to a pressed dome & you would need to do some machining > & polishing on a pressed dome anyway. > Might be a lot easier to machine it & build a small oven, or if you know a potter > or glass blower with a suitable kiln, get them to anneal it. > Alan > >> On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, >> The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure. >> Hank >> >> On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE. >> Alan >> >>> On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: >>> >> >> Hank, >> I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick >> cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. >> At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. >> Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at >> forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure >> Required is going to be used. >> When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker >> Clamping rings made. >> Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. >> You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. >> It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. >> If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? >> I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. >> Alan >> >> >>> On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. >>> Hank >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > <20ID dome conical seat 3523fsw Rev1.1.PDF> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 19:51:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 16:51:42 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <105279688.2656787.1555887304775@mail.yahoo.com> References: <105279688.2656787.1555887304775@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Shanee, even though the SeaQuestor is not finished, I had two specialty kits built for me in water proof cases. The first one is a first aid kit that has full triage capabilities, the second is an emergency food, and water supply designed for the full lenght 80 hour mission and rescue period for two people. David Colombo On Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Shanee, > I also carry blankets and food, and I have every tool required to replace > any part of the sub interior. > Hank > > > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:35:18 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > *CG requirements* > air horn > whistle > life jackets > fire extinguisher > > *safety* > fire blanket > 2x scuba masks > 2x spare air > primary gas analyzer > backup gas analyzer > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > handheld radios > uw radio system > > *repair kit* > gorilla tape > electrical tape > butyl tape > zip tie assortment > spare battery terminals > spare wire connectors > spare wire > splash zone > JB weld > steel tie wire > steel strap > e6000 glue > hose clamp assortment > screwdriver set > adjustable wrench > multi-tool > hammer > scissors > > What's in your kits? > > Best, > Shanee > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 20:09:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 00:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <55F41CB8-0574-419D-9AA9-EC1F2DCCCF6D@yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> <1338250564.2630314.1555886992620@mail.yahoo.com> <55F41CB8-0574-419D-9AA9-EC1F2DCCCF6D@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <362978863.2660505.1555891781868@mail.yahoo.com> Alan,I talked ?with Brian Cox because he annealed his own ports. ?He is Brilliant in the way he controls the heat. ?He uses a variable voltage supply instead of turning the heating elements on and off with a sensor and relay. ?He just pre determines the temperature at given voltages and then controls the voltage for constant temperature control. ?Just brilliant!Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 5:23:33 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,that was great of River to help out!If it were me I would definitely machine it seeing you have to machinethe clamping area off on a pressed dome anyway. Way less work inevery way.?BTW glass artists can ramp the temperature of their kiln down over2 weeks with thick art work. May be ideal to find a local one.I am full of suggestions lol.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, here is the drawing of the window, big thanks to River for helping with that. ?I think it may be easier to just machine it also . ?I have sourced the acrylic at 8 inches think already. ?I am just waiting to finalize the frame seat design before I pull the trigger.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 4:33:47 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,If it is just 3" deflection then you would need to go to a 8" thick acrylic ifyou machined.Just thinking there would be less waste around the perimeter on a machineddome as apposed to a pressed dome & you would need to do some machining& polishing on a pressed dome anyway.Might be a lot easier to machine it & build a small oven, or if you know a potteror glass blower with a suitable kiln, get them to anneal it.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan,The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure.Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: Hank,I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thickcast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven.At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber.Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is atforming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressureRequired is going to be used.When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thickerClamping rings made.Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience.You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements.It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine.If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward?I would imagine the stress would only be superficial.Alan On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All,I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. ?I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. ?I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming ?or from machining out of a thick slab. ?I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules.Hank _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles <20ID dome conical seat 3523fsw Rev1.1.PDF> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 20:52:06 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 17:52:06 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <105279688.2656787.1555887304775@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007f01d4f8a5$9cc27930$d6476b90$@telus.net> David, Don't forget some absorbent gel pads for use as an onboard head. Without them your wait will be most excruciating. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 4:52 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Hi Shanee, even though the SeaQuestor is not finished, I had two specialty kits built for me in water proof cases. The first one is a first aid kit that has full triage capabilities, the second is an emergency food, and water supply designed for the full lenght 80 hour mission and rescue period for two people. David Colombo On Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Shanee, I also carry blankets and food, and I have every tool required to replace any part of the sub interior. Hank On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:35:18 PM MDT, Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 20:57:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:57:15 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules In-Reply-To: <362978863.2660505.1555891781868@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1014922889.2549210.1555855907059@mail.yahoo.com> <477989843.2643290.1555882823013@mail.yahoo.com> <1338250564.2630314.1555886992620@mail.yahoo.com> <55F41CB8-0574-419D-9AA9-EC1F2DCCCF6D@yahoo.com> <362978863.2660505.1555891781868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, not quite following you on that. Modern temperature controllers have PID control. They predict when to turn on or off rather than react to the sensor hitting a certain temperature. Lots of cheap ones out there. Not saying this is ideal but just an example... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Controller-Furnace-Kiln-Oven-Thermocouple/230780863978?hash=item35bb9c85ea:g:8AAAAOSwPcVVk5Iq When I was annealing my acrylic I had to drop the temperature by a degree every hour & was monitoring it through the night. Much better to be able to program the ramping of the temperature. Alan > On 22/04/2019, at 12:09 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > I talked with Brian Cox because he annealed his own ports. He is Brilliant in the way he controls the heat. He uses a variable voltage supply instead of turning the heating elements on and off with a sensor and relay. He just pre determines the temperature at given voltages and then controls the voltage for constant temperature control. Just brilliant! > Hank > > On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 5:23:33 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, > that was great of River to help out! > If it were me I would definitely machine it seeing you have to machine > the clamping area off on a pressed dome anyway. Way less work in > every way. > BTW glass artists can ramp the temperature of their kiln down over > 2 weeks with thick art work. May be ideal to find a local one. > I am full of suggestions lol. > Alan > >> On 22/04/2019, at 10:49 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan, here is the drawing of the window, big thanks to River for helping with that. I think it may be easier to just machine it also . I have sourced the acrylic at 8 inches think already. I am just waiting to finalize the frame seat design before I pull the trigger. >> Hank >> On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 4:33:47 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, >> If it is just 3" deflection then you would need to go to a 8" thick acrylic if >> you machined. >> Just thinking there would be less waste around the perimeter on a machined >> dome as apposed to a pressed dome & you would need to do some machining >> & polishing on a pressed dome anyway. >> Might be a lot easier to machine it & build a small oven, or if you know a potter >> or glass blower with a suitable kiln, get them to anneal it. >> Alan >> >>> On 22/04/2019, at 9:40 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan, >>> The lucky thing is it only has approximately 3 inch deflection and I will use hydraulic pressure. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Sunday, April 21, 2019, 2:31:25 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> Spelling mistake. Pressure is going to be HUGE. >>> Alan >>> >>>> On 22/04/2019, at 8:28 AM, Alan wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Hank, >>> I had a go at forming an acrylic ring out of a straight piece of 1" thick >>> cast acrylic, using a modified kitchen oven. >>> At forming temperature the acrylic was like the hardness of eraser rubber. >>> Maybe there is technical literature on what shore hardness it actually is at >>> forming temperature. Anyway if you are forming a 5" block the pressure >>> Required is going to be used. >>> When I had a 1" thick dome blown for me they had to stop & get thicker >>> Clamping rings made. >>> Emile or Greg may like to comment on this as they have had a lot more experience. >>> You will need a temperature controller for a kiln, & program it for your requirements. >>> It will be a few days in the oven I would imagine. >>> If you machine it, can you get away with not heat treating it afterward? >>> I would imagine the stress would only be superficial. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>>> On 22/04/2019, at 2:11 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I am looking for the actual PVHO rules for Acrylic forming. I can find all the references to the rules but not the rules. I am planning to make a 5 inch thick 60 degree Hemispherical segment either from forming or from machining out of a thick slab. I prefer to form it because I will need an oven to heat treat it after anyways, but I don't want to form it without the rules. >>>> Hank >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> <20ID dome conical seat 3523fsw Rev1.1.PDF> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 21 21:57:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 21:57:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > *CG requirements* > air horn > whistle > life jackets > fire extinguisher > > *safety* > fire blanket > 2x scuba masks > 2x spare air > primary gas analyzer > backup gas analyzer > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > handheld radios > uw radio system > > *repair kit* > gorilla tape > electrical tape > butyl tape > zip tie assortment > spare battery terminals > spare wire connectors > spare wire > splash zone > JB weld > steel tie wire > steel strap > e6000 glue > hose clamp assortment > screwdriver set > adjustable wrench > multi-tool > hammer > scissors > > What's in your kits? > > Best, > Shanee > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 01:25:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:25:11 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PVHO rules Message-ID: <20190421222511.23F4BA80@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 08:18:28 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:18:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass In-Reply-To: References: <579308381.19654.1540860176767@wamui-merida.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <175955786.18724473.1540861814615@mail.yahoo.com> <1743910480.20115076.1540946161327@mail.yahoo.com> <2D6E121D-7C04-481B-A94C-D3C77371829F@yahoo.com> <2142179184.20458472.1540998039458@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> Alan, It's been a while, but I can report back now.??I just finished building a display for Hank using the CMPS12 sensor and it seems to be a good low cost alternative to the HMC6343.? I like the fact that it has an option for TTL serial communication and the tilt-compensation seems to be quite stable.? I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and I'm going to get one for myself even though I already have the HMC6343. Jon From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass Jon,I have to buy a compass some time so looked it up but it's pretty expensiveat $188-. I also saw a video on it dated 2010, so it's at least 8 years old.There are modules for less than $20- but not tilt compensated.It does say it is "high end" but is there much difference between a cheap& expensive compass? ( I know nothing about this).The thought came to mind that you could possibly cover it with resin &mount it outside the hull away from magnetic interference.Alan? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 10:29:13 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 14:29:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass In-Reply-To: <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> References: <579308381.19654.1540860176767@wamui-merida.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <175955786.18724473.1540861814615@mail.yahoo.com> <1743910480.20115076.1540946161327@mail.yahoo.com> <2D6E121D-7C04-481B-A94C-D3C77371829F@yahoo.com> <2142179184.20458472.1540998039458@mail.yahoo.com> <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1338129496.2905597.1555943353974@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,? the?CMPS12 sensor you are working with is quite similar?to the Ocean-Server OS5000 I use on the R300.? I use RS-232 serial communication with the compass rather than the TTL serial which is one of the option on the?CMPS12.? I note the higher voltages of RS232 serial communication?protocol? would actually fry the electronics on the?CMPS12. Compass Module with Tilt Compensation - OS5000-S | | | | | | | | | | | Compass Module with Tilt Compensation - OS5000-S **Replacement:** None. There is no direct replacement for this part but check out our [magneto sensors](http://w... | | | https://ocean-server.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/OS5000_Compass_Manual.pdf A couple of observations on magnetic compass usage that I found from my experience on the R300:1) I machined a small enclosure out of aluminum so that the sensor can be located outside of the steel pressure hull.? The sensor would not work without this.2) I found that it was necessary to do a hard iron calibration to get good results.? To do this I built a compass calibration skid.? See picture of skid I made out of an old truck axle.? To calibrate the compass I alighted the skid to magnetic north then sat the R300 on the frame.? I then rotated the R300 through 360 degrees logging the boat heading from the compass skid and the magnetic compass heading from the OS5000.? The calibration process for the sensor? was to position the compass at the cardinal points then tell the unit when I was at these points.? Without this calibration the compass was up to 25 degrees off at some headings.? Also the error would vary with heading.3) As you are setting up the display for Hank, have you considered delineation angle, the angle difference between true north and magnetic north?? As an example, where I live in Devine Texas, the declination angle is 4.32 E while at Flathead lake, it is 13.25 E.? On the R300, I have a HMI screen for compass calibration. On the screen I give the operator the ability to change the declination angle.? I also allow the operator to display either magnetic heading or the true heading corrected by this delineation angle.4) On the?OS5000 compass, tilt and roll sensor I use, it's serial communication?conforms?to NMEA 0183 which defines the ASCII strings being sent for compass?heading, roll angle, pitch angle, temperature ...? ?On the CMPS12 I don't see this.? Does the?CMPS12 send ASCII strings??? I note on the?CMPS12 sensor data sheet as you mention?that you can use either 12C or TTL serial.? Which did you implement for Hank's compass?? I see that almost all the RC usage of these sensors use 12C. It is amazing to me the cost reduction that has occurred on these small IC magnetic compass sensors.? When I first built the R300, 7 years ago, I paid over $500 for this sensor which is no longer being sold.? This was cheap at the time with similar units going for $2K.? You can now by essentially the same IC with the?CMPS12? for $30. So now the real cost for having one of these magnetic compasses is the machine work to make the enclosure. ?Now if they could just get the hearing aid manufactures to get on this price-quality slope, it would be great!? It is sad when you get old and start having all these equipment failures! Best? Cliff On Monday, April 22, 2019, 7:20:11 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, It's been a while, but I can report back now.??I just finished building a display for Hank using the CMPS12 sensor and it seems to be a good low cost alternative to the HMC6343.? I like the fact that it has an option for TTL serial communication and the tilt-compensation seems to be quite stable.? I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and I'm going to get one for myself even though I already have the HMC6343. Jon From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass Jon,I have to buy a compass some time so looked it up but it's pretty expensiveat $188-. I also saw a video on it dated 2010, so it's at least 8 years old.There are modules for less than $20- but not tilt compensated.It does say it is "high end" but is there much difference between a cheap& expensive compass? ( I know nothing about this).The thought came to mind that you could possibly cover it with resin &mount it outside the hull away from magnetic interference.Alan? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Compass Calibration Frame.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1821046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 12:20:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:20:04 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] curtis distributor Message-ID: <20190422092004.23F49115@m0117567.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 12:31:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:31:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass In-Reply-To: <1338129496.2905597.1555943353974@mail.yahoo.com> References: <579308381.19654.1540860176767@wamui-merida.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <175955786.18724473.1540861814615@mail.yahoo.com> <1743910480.20115076.1540946161327@mail.yahoo.com> <2D6E121D-7C04-481B-A94C-D3C77371829F@yahoo.com> <2142179184.20458472.1540998039458@mail.yahoo.com> <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> <1338129496.2905597.1555943353974@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <881423240.3949471.1555950693730@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Cliff, I agree with you regarding technology advancement.? I was initially wary of this unit because it was so inexpensive but it seems to be as good as my $150 Honeywell HMC6343, and certainly good enough for the basic navigation we may require for our subs. I am letting Hank figure out his own housing based upon the dynamics of his submarine, but for my own housing I chose 1 inch PVC pipe with a cap on each end.? The sensor just fits on top of the pipe end without impeding the PVC cap from attaching to the pipe normally.? I think the 1 inch PVC is strong enough at 1ATM for my own purposes, but the housing could be oil compensated or potted for deeper diving. Regarding calibration and declination deviation, I have convinced myself these issues are largely irrelevant for my own purposes and probably most of our community.? I expect most usage to be of the kind whereby a visual reference is made on the surface to one or more particular headings or bearings.? For example, point submarine at "the beach" and compass reads 350, so to get back to "the beach" I have to head 350.? In that context the accuracy of the compass to true north really doesn't matter.? Alternatively, I added a push button to Hanks unit that allows override of the sensed heading and converts it to "north" or 000.? For example, let's say on the surface you turn the sub to true north and the compass reads 025 due to metal and declination deviation.? Press this button and the compass now reads 000 and the software takes care of calculating further readings from the sensor.? Instant calibration assuming you already know where true north is located. The CMPS12 does not output ASCII strings, it instead outputs two bytes that have to be combined into a 16 bit number.? Heading is a four digit number from 0000 to 3599 with the "ones" place representing tenths of a degree and displayed as 000.0 to 359.9 degrees.? Pitch, roll, and temperature are similar but Hank was only interested in the compass functionality so I did not implement the other options.? I have read some reviews that the temperature sensor is not extremely accurate.? I prefer to use an LM34 variant for temperature readings anyway. The mode pin on CMPS12 lets you choose between I2C and serial.? I implemented serial because of the length of cable necessary to get out of, and then away from, the submarine in order to minimize iron effects on the sensor.? I've done a lot of research on maximum I2C cable length and there isn't any good rule of thumb other than figuring out total capacitive value of cable and pull-ups, and then potentially changing bus speed.? Too much effort to consider when serial is an option.??I2C was primarily designed for PCB mounted devices and is popular in the ROBOT field because everything is in close proximity.? For sensors in close proximity of the microprocessor it would be fine.? My HMC6343 is I2C only and I prototyped it with 7 feet of CAT-5 cable which seemed to work fine, but it was also the only device on the I2C bus.? In any event, I prefer serial communication whether ASCII or byte format because it is so dependable. Jon From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass Jon,? the?CMPS12 sensor you are working with is quite similar?to the Ocean-Server OS5000 I use on the R300.? I use RS-232 serial communication with the compass rather than the TTL serial which is one of the option on the?CMPS12.? I note the higher voltages of RS232 serial communication?protocol? would actually fry the electronics on the?CMPS12. Compass Module with Tilt Compensation - OS5000-S | | | | | | | | | | | Compass Module with Tilt Compensation - OS5000-S **Replacement:** None. There is no direct replacement for this part but check out our [magneto sensors](http://w... | | | https://ocean-server.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/OS5000_Compass_Manual.pdf A couple of observations on magnetic compass usage that I found from my experience on the R300:1) I machined a small enclosure out of aluminum so that the sensor can be located outside of the steel pressure hull.? The sensor would not work without this.2) I found that it was necessary to do a hard iron calibration to get good results.? To do this I built a compass calibration skid.? See picture of skid I made out of an old truck axle.? To calibrate the compass I alighted the skid to magnetic north then sat the R300 on the frame.? I then rotated the R300 through 360 degrees logging the boat heading from the compass skid and the magnetic compass heading from the OS5000.? The calibration process for the sensor? was to position the compass at the cardinal points then tell the unit when I was at these points.? Without this calibration the compass was up to 25 degrees off at some headings.? Also the error would vary with heading.3) As you are setting up the display for Hank, have you considered delineation angle, the angle difference between true north and magnetic north?? As an example, where I live in Devine Texas, the declination angle is 4.32 E while at Flathead lake, it is 13.25 E.? On the R300, I have a HMI screen for compass calibration. On the screen I give the operator the ability to change the declination angle.? I also allow the operator to display either magnetic heading or the true heading corrected by this delineation angle.4) On the?OS5000 compass, tilt and roll sensor I use, it's serial communication?conforms?to NMEA 0183 which defines the ASCII strings being sent for compass?heading, roll angle, pitch angle, temperature ...? ?On the CMPS12 I don't see this.? Does the?CMPS12 send ASCII strings??? I note on the?CMPS12 sensor data sheet as you mention?that you can use either 12C or TTL serial.? Which did you implement for Hank's compass?? I see that almost all the RC usage of these sensors use 12C. It is amazing to me the cost reduction that has occurred on these small IC magnetic compass sensors.? When I first built the R300, 7 years ago, I paid over $500 for this sensor which is no longer being sold.? This was cheap at the time with similar units going for $2K.? You can now by essentially the same IC with the?CMPS12? for $30. So now the real cost for having one of these magnetic compasses is the machine work to make the enclosure. ?Now if they could just get the hearing aid manufactures to get on this price-quality slope, it would be great!? It is sad when you get old and start having all these equipment failures! Best? Cliff On Monday, April 22, 2019, 7:20:11 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan, It's been a while, but I can report back now.??I just finished building a display for Hank using the CMPS12 sensor and it seems to be a good low cost alternative to the HMC6343.? I like the fact that it has an option for TTL serial communication and the tilt-compensation seems to be quite stable.? I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and I'm going to get one for myself even though I already have the HMC6343. Jon From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass Jon,I have to buy a compass some time so looked it up but it's pretty expensiveat $188-. I also saw a video on it dated 2010, so it's at least 8 years old.There are modules for less than $20- but not tilt compensated.It does say it is "high end" but is there much difference between a cheap& expensive compass? ( I know nothing about this).The thought came to mind that you could possibly cover it with resin &mount it outside the hull away from magnetic interference.Alan? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 12:51:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:51:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] diveceL3 replacement Message-ID: <20190422095103.23F49749@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 13:13:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:13:40 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Shanee, > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> *CG requirements* >> air horn >> whistle >> life jackets >> fire extinguisher >> >> *safety* >> fire blanket >> 2x scuba masks >> 2x spare air >> primary gas analyzer >> backup gas analyzer >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> handheld radios >> uw radio system >> >> *repair kit* >> gorilla tape >> electrical tape >> butyl tape >> zip tie assortment >> spare battery terminals >> spare wire connectors >> spare wire >> splash zone >> JB weld >> steel tie wire >> steel strap >> e6000 glue >> hose clamp assortment >> screwdriver set >> adjustable wrench >> multi-tool >> hammer >> scissors >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> Best, >> Shanee >> >> -- >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> ::::: >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> ::::: >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 14:38:24 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:38:24 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Shanee, >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> air horn >>> whistle >>> life jackets >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> *safety* >>> fire blanket >>> 2x scuba masks >>> 2x spare air >>> primary gas analyzer >>> backup gas analyzer >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> handheld radios >>> uw radio system >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> gorilla tape >>> electrical tape >>> butyl tape >>> zip tie assortment >>> spare battery terminals >>> spare wire connectors >>> spare wire >>> splash zone >>> JB weld >>> steel tie wire >>> steel strap >>> e6000 glue >>> hose clamp assortment >>> screwdriver set >>> adjustable wrench >>> multi-tool >>> hammer >>> scissors >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> Best, >>> Shanee >>> >>> -- >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 15:36:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 19:36:12 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rick - Be careful with using mixed gas in a submarine escape application. Helium is not typically used to reduce decompression obligations, but rather to alleviate inert gas narcosis. Often this is at the expense of an increased decompression obligation in comparison to an equivalent nitrox. Helium is a fast-diffusing gas, and on short exposures like submarine escape will likely increase the risk of bends as compared to nitrogen. On the basis of oxygen content alone, air can be breathed down to about 218 fsw. Below that, you have to reduce the oxygen content, but you don't want to reduce it to the extent that you end up with a dangerously hypoxic gas at the surface. 16% is about as low as you can go without guaranteeing a surface blackout. A 16% oxygen gas would be good down to about 300 fsw. Deeper than that, and you run a severe risk of oxygen toxicity convulsions (single breath and go scenario notwithstanding) without further reducing the oxygen content. Of course, at 300 fsw, the narcosis would be huge, but given that your task load during a submarine escape is hopefully both of short duration and of simple nature, the risk imposed by having to lock out under the influence of the narcosis is likely far less than the risk of incurring a greater decompression obligation during the lockout and ascent by using a helium based gas for this application as opposed to nitrogen which has a slower uptake. Of course, an escape scenario lets you get away with a lot more than if you were planning an ambient pressure dive, as a result of the limited duration lockout and rapid ascent, so YMMV. In any case, give these issues some careful consideration. At the end of the day, bends can be treated. Drowning, not so much. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, April 22, 2019 12:38 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Shanee > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. > Rick > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> air horn >>>> whistle >>>> life jackets >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> safety >>>> fire blanket >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> 2x spare air >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> handheld radios >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> gorilla tape >>>> electrical tape >>>> butyl tape >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> spare wire >>>> splash zone >>>> JB weld >>>> steel tie wire >>>> steel strap >>>> e6000 glue >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> screwdriver set >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> multi-tool >>>> hammer >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> ::::: >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >> >> ::::: >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 15:36:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 15:36:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Shanee > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > Rick > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> Best, >>> Alec >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> air horn >>>> whistle >>>> life jackets >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> fire blanket >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> 2x spare air >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> handheld radios >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> gorilla tape >>>> electrical tape >>>> butyl tape >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> spare wire >>>> splash zone >>>> JB weld >>>> steel tie wire >>>> steel strap >>>> e6000 glue >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> screwdriver set >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> multi-tool >>>> hammer >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> >> >> -- >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> ::::: >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> ::::: >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 15:44:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:44:31 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 16:09:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:09:35 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> References: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: I have a friend that I keep in contact with that was a rack operator back in the day that mixed the gas for the sat systems that I used to be in and was going to have him do the math to get the proper mix and gases so that I wouldn't have the 02 toxicity problems that you speak of. As long as you don't go lower than the 16% PP02 to sustain life and you don't dilly dally at depth which you wouldn't, it should be fine. My flood valve is 2" ID so should flood sub quite quickly but probably going to come away with blown eardrums even though I am really good at clearing my ears. My bailouts are also 30 Cu. Ft. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 9:45 AM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Would be good to have a small pony bottle so you could make a > decompression saftey stop a 15 feet. > > Brian > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 15:36:05 -0400 > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > Rick > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > *CG requirements* > air horn > whistle > life jackets > fire extinguisher > > *safety* > fire blanket > 2x scuba masks > 2x spare air > primary gas analyzer > backup gas analyzer > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > handheld radios > uw radio system > > *repair kit* > gorilla tape > electrical tape > butyl tape > zip tie assortment > spare battery terminals > spare wire connectors > spare wire > splash zone > JB weld > steel tie wire > steel strap > e6000 glue > hose clamp assortment > screwdriver set > adjustable wrench > multi-tool > hammer > scissors > > What's in your kits? > > Best, > Shanee > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > -- > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > ::::: > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > ::::: > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 17:40:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:40:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Saturation is a different animal entirely. In sat, your PPO2 is likely kept below 0.4 atm because of the indefinite exposure duration, and your excursion limits change as opposed to surface-oriented (bounce) diving. A sub escape is ideally a really rapid bounce, blowing down as fast as you can equalize, locking out and ascending as fast as possible when deep, and if at all possible, slowing down a bit as you approach the surface. Getting on 100% oxygen once you have surfaced is going to be a big help for survivability too. As you say though, blown eardrums (barotrauma), bends (decompression sickness), hypothermia and all the rest are secondary considerations to just getting the hell out and getting to air. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, April 22, 2019 2:09 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have a friend that I keep in contact with that was a rack operator back in the day that mixed the gas for the sat systems that I used to be in and was going to have him do the math to get the proper mix and gases so that I wouldn't have the 02 toxicity problems that you speak of. As long as you don't go lower than the 16% PP02 to sustain life and you don't dilly dally at depth which you wouldn't, it should be fine. My flood valve is 2" ID so should flood sub quite quickly but probably going to come away with blown eardrums even though I am really good at clearing my ears. My bailouts are also 30 Cu. Ft. > Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 17:46:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 14:46:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: <2115CD6C-1522-48D2-84FC-E8A813260046@gmail.com> Have there been many submersible escapes historically? I know submarines yes, but wondering if there are incident reports in the world or peoples brains about anyone escaping a submersible and what the circumstances were. Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > On Apr 22, 2019, at 2:40 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Saturation is a different animal entirely. In sat, your PPO2 is likely kept below 0.4 atm because of the indefinite exposure duration, and your excursion limits change as opposed to surface-oriented (bounce) diving. A sub escape is ideally a really rapid bounce, blowing down as fast as you can equalize, locking out and ascending as fast as possible when deep, and if at all possible, slowing down a bit as you approach the surface. Getting on 100% oxygen once you have surfaced is going to be a big help for survivability too. As you say though, blown eardrums (barotrauma), bends (decompression sickness), hypothermia and all the rest are secondary considerations to just getting the hell out and getting to air. > > Sean > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Monday, April 22, 2019 2:09 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I have a friend that I keep in contact with that was a rack operator back in the day that mixed the gas for the sat systems that I used to be in and was going to have him do the math to get the proper mix and gases so that I wouldn't have the 02 toxicity problems that you speak of. As long as you don't go lower than the 16% PP02 to sustain life and you don't dilly dally at depth which you wouldn't, it should be fine. My flood valve is 2" ID so should flood sub quite quickly but probably going to come away with blown eardrums even though I am really good at clearing my ears. My bailouts are also 30 Cu. Ft. >> Rick > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 17:49:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:49:41 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422124431.23F4A009@m0117459.ppops.net> Message-ID: Sean, I was trying to convey that my friend knows how to figure out partial pressures ( I used to ) and what different gasses do and why you would want to use them for an exact reason. Hope I never have to use the bailout though!! Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:42 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Saturation is a different animal entirely. In sat, your PPO2 is likely > kept below 0.4 atm because of the indefinite exposure duration, and your > excursion limits change as opposed to surface-oriented (bounce) diving. A > sub escape is ideally a really rapid bounce, blowing down as fast as you > can equalize, locking out and ascending as fast as possible when deep, and > if at all possible, slowing down a bit as you approach the surface. > Getting on 100% oxygen once you have surfaced is going to be a big help for > survivability too. As you say though, blown eardrums (barotrauma), bends > (decompression sickness), hypothermia and all the rest are secondary > considerations to just getting the hell out and getting to air. > > Sean > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Monday, April 22, 2019 2:09 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I have a friend that I keep in contact with that was a rack operator back > in the day that mixed the gas for the sat systems that I used to be in and > was going to have him do the math to get the proper mix and gases so that I > wouldn't have the 02 toxicity problems that you speak of. As long as you > don't go lower than the 16% PP02 to sustain life and you don't dilly dally > at depth which you wouldn't, it should be fine. My flood valve is 2" ID so > should flood sub quite quickly but probably going to come away with blown > eardrums even though I am really good at clearing my ears. My bailouts are > also 30 Cu. Ft. > Rick > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 18:07:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:07:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate of pressurisation. To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft equivalent. That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds.. So I have changed to two one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space. 3? valve IMHO is too big. I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs. i.e. escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub. The reason I chased that scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch. Deduction was that they were narc?d. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 18:12:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:12:53 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> References: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe our body needs at least 16% ppo2 at any given depth before feeling drowsy and passing out? Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:08 PM Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate > of pressurisation. To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft > equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft > equivalent. That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would > mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds.. So I have changed to two > one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space. 3? valve IMHO is > too big. > > I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft > and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without > narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you > breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs. i.e. > escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub. The reason I chased that > scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch > open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch. Deduction was > that they were narc?d. Chs Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 18:26:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:26:29 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <098401d4f95a$70f36840$52da38c0$@gmail.com> Sorry you are right as I just found the email I had from him and it is as below. Hugh Most of the question you pose are answered (in theory) in the 2009 paper I sent, and they would advocate the use of air; even from that depth. However, that work was done with mass escapees in mind where air is probably the only option. You may have others. For example, if you could flush your hood with oxygen-helium 16:84 that would completely circumvent the narcosis problem and 16% oxygen would still sustain consciousness at the surface. However, you might make DCS more likely or worse. Maybe a trimix with some helium to ameliorate narcosis would be better, but the oxygen fraction must NOT be less than 16% and I repeat that by using helium you may increase the possibility of severe DCS. No easy answers I?m afraid and for simplicity, you may be best sticking with air (and hope its never necessary). Simon M Associate Professor Simon J. Mitchell MB ChB, PhD, DipDHM. DipOccMed, FUHM, FANZCA Consultant Anaesthesiologist and Diving Physician From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:13 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear I believe our body needs at least 16% ppo2 at any given depth before feeling drowsy and passing out? Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:08 PM Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate of pressurisation. To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft equivalent. That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds.. So I have changed to two one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space. 3? valve IMHO is too big. I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs. i.e. escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub. The reason I chased that scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch. Deduction was that they were narc?d. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 18:41:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:41:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> References: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6Ic6cvc_thabEDviZxQWM4r5QjMFKhPv2t_hbkQe0isrxiDoI4HaXy7BH0vQuNn-j6Pz5SkGKuTuXcDq5NFvjeFfLoA1eH6cEafiO8Oy2ww=@protonmail.com> 12% would only become hypoxic (<0.209 PPO2) at 24 fsw, and only dangerously hypoxic (<0.16 PPO2) at 11 fsw. Given the likely rate of ascent, that's unlikely to be a real problem provided you were able to get the hood off and breathe the ambient air as soon as you broke the surface. If you surfaced unconscious, however, you would promptly succumb to hypoxia in the absence of ventilation. I guess this is where design judgement comes into play. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, April 22, 2019 4:07 PM, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate of pressurisation. To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft equivalent. That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds.. So I have changed to two one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space. 3? valve IMHO is too big. > > I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs. i.e. escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub. The reason I chased that scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch. Deduction was that they were narc?d. Chs Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > Best, > > Alec > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Shanee >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> CG requirements >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> safety >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> repair kit >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 18:41:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:41:49 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <098901d4f95c$956fb320$c04f1960$@gmail.com> I just found all the correspondence and the papers given for sub escapes to 1000 ft. There are 2 papers Ferrrigno et al. If anyone is interested I can send direct or is there another method of giving access. Just shows my memory is rubbish but OK if I can find the stuff. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:13 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear I believe our body needs at least 16% ppo2 at any given depth before feeling drowsy and passing out? Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:08 PM Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate of pressurisation. To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft equivalent. That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds.. So I have changed to two one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space. 3? valve IMHO is too big. I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs. i.e. escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub. The reason I chased that scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch. Deduction was that they were narc?d. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 19:31:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 23:31:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <098901d4f95c$956fb320$c04f1960$@gmail.com> References: <096401d4f957$cd515f00$67f41d00$@gmail.com> <098901d4f95c$956fb320$c04f1960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <157700580.3225878.1555975899802@mail.yahoo.com> These are the reasons Gamma has an escape podHank On Monday, April 22, 2019, 4:42:18 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: #yiv3846836233 #yiv3846836233 -- _filtered #yiv3846836233 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3846836233 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3846836233 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;}#yiv3846836233 #yiv3846836233 p.yiv3846836233MsoNormal, #yiv3846836233 li.yiv3846836233MsoNormal, #yiv3846836233 div.yiv3846836233MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New;}#yiv3846836233 a:link, #yiv3846836233 span.yiv3846836233MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3846836233 a:visited, #yiv3846836233 span.yiv3846836233MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3846836233 p.yiv3846836233MsoAcetate, #yiv3846836233 li.yiv3846836233MsoAcetate, #yiv3846836233 div.yiv3846836233MsoAcetate {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv3846836233 span.yiv3846836233EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3846836233 span.yiv3846836233BalloonTextChar {}#yiv3846836233 .yiv3846836233MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv3846836233 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv3846836233 div.yiv3846836233WordSection1 {}#yiv3846836233 I just found all the correspondence and the papers given for sub escapes to 1000 ft.? There are 2 papers Ferrrigno et al.? If anyone is interested I can send direct or is there another method of giving access.? Just shows my memory is rubbish but OK if I can find the stuff.? Hugh ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:13 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear ? I believe our body needs at least 16% ppo2 at any given depth before feeling drowsy and passing out? Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:08 PM Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I started with two inch and a half valves but was concerned about the rate of pressurisation.? To half fill the sub it means you are only at 33 ft equivalent. The next stop at ? full is supposedly around 100 ft equivalent.? That is where it needs to slow down as the same flowrate would mean 300 ft of increase in only a few seconds..? So I have changed to two one inch valves for approx. 1.5 ? 2.0 m3 of cabin space.? 3? valve IMHO is too big. ?I asked a bloke at the local university what mix it should be for 400 ft and I think he said about 12% O2 with helium to get out of the sub without narcosis but if you fill the Steinke with air then as it escapes and you breathe the mix in the hood it will deplete the mix in your lungs.? i.e. escape mix reg is only used to exit the sub.? ??The reason I chased that scenario is that evidently many sunken subs in the war had escape hatch open and the submariners lying outside around the hatch.? Deduction was that they were narc?d.? Chs Hugh ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:36 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear ? Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 19:37:01 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:37:01 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > Best, > Alec > >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Shanee >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >> Rick >> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> CG requirements >>>>> air horn >>>>> whistle >>>>> life jackets >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> safety >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> repair kit >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> spare wire >>>>> splash zone >>>>> JB weld >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> steel strap >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> hammer >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 19:40:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:40:39 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass In-Reply-To: <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> References: <579308381.19654.1540860176767@wamui-merida.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <175955786.18724473.1540861814615@mail.yahoo.com> <1743910480.20115076.1540946161327@mail.yahoo.com> <2D6E121D-7C04-481B-A94C-D3C77371829F@yahoo.com> <2142179184.20458472.1540998039458@mail.yahoo.com> <1356141768.3804755.1555935508363@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, thanks, I bought the CMPS12 so will file the emails that discuss it for when I connect it up. Alan > On 23/04/2019, at 12:18 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan, > > It's been a while, but I can report back now. I just finished building a display for Hank using the CMPS12 sensor and it seems to be a good low cost alternative to the HMC6343. I like the fact that it has an option for TTL serial communication and the tilt-compensation seems to be quite stable. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it and I'm going to get one for myself even though I already have the HMC6343. > > Jon > > > >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:46 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] compass >> >> Jon, >> I have to buy a compass some time so looked it up but it's pretty expensive >> at $188-. I also saw a video on it dated 2010, so it's at least 8 years old. >> There are modules for less than $20- but not tilt compensated. >> It does say it is "high end" but is there much difference between a cheap >> & expensive compass? ( I know nothing about this). >> The thought came to mind that you could possibly cover it with resin & >> mount it outside the hull away from magnetic interference. >> Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 20:30:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 00:30:45 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> References: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Shanee >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>> Rick >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>> >>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>> air horn >>>>>> whistle >>>>>> life jackets >>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>> >>>>>> safety >>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>> >>>>>> repair kit >>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>> spare wire >>>>>> splash zone >>>>>> JB weld >>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>> steel strap >>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>> hammer >>>>>> scissors >>>>>> >>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 20:58:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:58:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. > Alan > >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Shanee >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>> Rick >>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>> >>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>> air horn >>>>>> whistle >>>>>> life jackets >>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>> >>>>>> safety >>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>> >>>>>> repair kit >>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>> spare wire >>>>>> splash zone >>>>>> JB weld >>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>> steel strap >>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>> hammer >>>>>> scissors >>>>>> >>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 22:24:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! ? If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. > Alan > >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Shanee >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>> Rick >>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>> >>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>> air horn >>>>>> whistle >>>>>> life jackets >>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>> >>>>>> safety >>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>> >>>>>> repair kit >>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>> spare wire >>>>>> splash zone >>>>>> JB weld >>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>> steel strap >>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>> hammer >>>>>> scissors >>>>>> >>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 23:03:57 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:03:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 23:27:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:27:35 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <7CWFAA2mfEKbVFDb1Ds6XLeft6vXtc0ojKZR8LbZBsDNJZ2zQ-uLEZUCqMIUEWwEcnOScn5YIgeQeFsPRfqCNOmgJjEi8mJVxYz4PlGXvTU=@protonmail.com> Free diving / breath hold diving does not subject the diver to the same risks, because the total oxygen content in the free diver's lungs is limited to the surface contents at first submersion. SCUBA and surface supplied divers breathe additional gas under pressure, so despite having the same PPO2 at depth, the toxicity potential of a lung full of air is much greater when you are inhaling large quantities of it at the ambient pressure at depth. 218 fsw is the limit for air based on oxygen toxicity alone, though this is typically contraindicated on SCUBA due to the narcotic potential. Oxygen limits for a diver in the water (surface-oriented diving) are typically 1.6 ATM for decompression / recommended maximum, though a maximum of 1.2 to 1.4 is typical for planned bottom / working phases of the dive, and this is typically reduced as the dives get longer in order to reduce total cumulative exposure. 0.4 is the maximum that can be tolerated indefinitely, so that or less is used in saturation operations. Higher PPO2s can be tolerated in a gas space, so accelerated decompression in habitats or chambers can expose a diver to higher oxygen levels than can be tolerated in the water, due to the vertical pressure differential across the lungs. Obviously a planned SCUBA dive to 300 fsw would employ different gases than you might use for submarine escape from that same depth, because cumulative exposure is a non issue when you're just locking out and rocketing to the surface. You would want to max out your PPO2 at 1.6 for escape, instead of planning about 1.2 for a bottom gas that might be appropriate for a dive, since the duration of that 1.6 will be minimal during an escape. Similarly, a SCUBA dive to that depth might employ 21/35, 35/25, 50/0 and 100/0 as decompression gases, requiring gas switches on the ascent. In an escape scenario, you can't easily switch gases, but it's almost a moot point because the exposure time is limited, and ascent rate / profile is well outside the bounds of any reasonable planned dive. A submarine escape from that depth is essentially making a conscious decision to choose decompression sickness over drowning or asphyxiation in the cabin atmosphere in the disabled vessel. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 21:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > Tom > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> Sean, >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > escape for those classes of submersibles. > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > Inflate much against the water pressure. > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 23:41:02 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 22 23:49:16 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 15:49:16 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a0701d4f987$8838ec00$98aac400$@gmail.com> This is a scary, but fascinating subject. Glad we have a few experts out there. Glad to find out now that my simplistic approach was a no-go zone. So if we were to have an escape system that had to address these issues starting at 350-400 ft which is where some of you crazy techs get to, what mixes should we look for. 12% for getting out of the sub at depth, then 16% when you hit 250 ft and then air at 150 ft. Would that be something to aim for? Possibly with 3 cylinders as small as possible and mechanical changeover valves at those depths. It is hardly what would be considered by a tech diver but it is possibly something that gives us a better than even chance of getting to the surface in a recoverable state. Is this an option worth pursuing? Possibly the biggest cylinder, if 3 stages are acceptable, would have to be for the max depth, without a rebreather, and could be calculated with the next biggest for Mid range depth and so on. Obviously my depth suggestions are only nominal without tech considerations. What are the minimum number of mixes that should be considered for these depths? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 2:25 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! ? If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 00:01:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 04:01:42 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <0a0701d4f987$8838ec00$98aac400$@gmail.com> References: <20620442-2D7C-4828-927E-F0C18E01186E@yahoo.com> <0a0701d4f987$8838ec00$98aac400$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably two. Whatever the 1.6 ATM PPO2 gas is for the escape depth, in either heliox or an appropriate trimix to reduce the equivalent narcotic depth to 80-100 fsw or so, and then 100% oxygen which you would trigger from 20 fsw on up. This would still leave you with a narrow hypoxic window between 35 fsw or so and 20 fsw while you're still on the low FO2 escape gas, but in an escape scenario you are passing through this range quickly during the emergency ascent instead of hanging out and breathing it, and having 100% oxygen available at the surface provides the greatest possible therapeutic effect to treat the bend that you are likely to develop during the escape ascent. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 21:49, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > This is a scary, but fascinating subject. Glad we have a few experts out there. Glad to find out now that my simplistic approach was a no-go zone. > So if we were to have an escape system that had to address these issues starting at 350-400 ft which is where some of you crazy techs get to, what mixes should we look for. 12% for getting out of the sub at depth, then 16% when you hit 250 ft and then air at 150 ft. Would that be something to aim for? Possibly with 3 cylinders as small as possible and mechanical changeover valves at those depths. It is hardly what would be considered by a tech diver but it is possibly something that gives us a better than even chance of getting to the surface in a recoverable state. > > Is this an option worth pursuing? Possibly the biggest cylinder, if 3 stages are acceptable, would have to be for the max depth, without a rebreather, and could be calculated with the next biggest for Mid range depth and so on. Obviously my depth suggestions are only nominal without tech considerations. What are the minimum number of mixes that should be considered for these depths? Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 2:25 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! ? > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 00:01:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:01:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness.? I wonder,? if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 00:21:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. Just running some numbers for gas quantities... At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness.? I wonder,? if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness.? I wonder,? if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ?Great analysis? ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean,Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escapingat varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario forescape for those classes of submersibles.Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventionallife jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn'tInflate much against the water pressure.We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your armsand provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water comingthrough the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation requiredto open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down towardthe end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossibledue to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? Best,Alec?? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best,Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? CG requirementsair hornwhistlelife jacketsfire extinguisher safetyfire blanket2x scuba masks2x spare airprimary gas analyzerbackup gas analyzerspare CO2 scrubber - battery poweredhandheld radiosuw radio system repair kitgorilla tapeelectrical tapebutyl tapezip tie assortmentspare battery terminalsspare wire connectorsspare wiresplash zoneJB weldsteel tie wiresteel strape6000 glue?hose clamp assortmentscrewdriver setadjustable wrenchmulti-toolhammerscissors What's in your kits? Best,Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 00:58:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 04:58:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? > You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. > At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. > Just running some numbers for gas quantities... > At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> Very well said Sean. >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>> >>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> Tom >>>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sean >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>>>> Alan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> Tom >>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>>> Sean, >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> Tom >>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>>> Sean, >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> Tom >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Very well said Sean. > I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. > The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> Tom >>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>>> Sean, >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> Tom >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> Tom >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >>> Sean, >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>>> Rick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > Tom > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> Sean, >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shanee >>>>>> >>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > escape for those classes of submersibles. > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > Inflate much against the water pressure. > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 01:44:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:44:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> Thanks Sean. What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. Just running some numbers for gas quantities... At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 07:51:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:51:39 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Thanks Sean. > What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. > > I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? > > You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. > > At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. > > Just running some numbers for gas quantities... > > At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Very well said Sean. > > I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. > > The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Very well said Sean. > > I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. > > The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? > > Great analysis ! > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>> >>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>> >>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>> >>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>> >>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>> >>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>> >>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 08:22:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:22:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Thanks Sean. >> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >> >> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >> >> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. >> >> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. >> >> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >> >> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> Brian >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>>>> >>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CG requirements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> air horn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whistle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> life jackets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safety >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> fire blanket >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2x spare air >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> handheld radios >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> uw radio system >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> repair kit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gorilla tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> electrical tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> butyl tape >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> spare wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> splash zone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JB weld >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel tie wire >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> steel strap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> e6000 glue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> screwdriver set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> multi-tool >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hammer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> scissors >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shanee >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ::::: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>>> >>>>>> ::::: >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 14:32:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:32:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. > Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen > percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% > oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to > describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second > number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and > nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the > oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same > as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% > oxygen, balance nitrogen. > > END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas > mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable > to breathing air at 80 fsw. > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 > of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to > the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser > decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because > the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression > obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest > 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still > reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 > fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at > the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% > oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Sean. > > What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking > for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see > how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the > necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply > it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. Stevenson > via Personal_Submersibles > *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone > with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure > is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to > arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt > oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make > the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I > could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as > the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface > support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an > evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in > order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at > survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any > decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only > get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. > > I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates > the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you > must ensure somehow that this is not possible. > > Sean > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? > > You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the > minimum operating depth of the first gas. > > At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a > better safety margin. > > Just running some numbers for gas quantities... > > At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Very well said Sean. > > I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression > sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that > situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would > be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert > gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time > to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of > ascent might be an issue. > > The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause > loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to > that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. > Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having > exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas > to verify its operation. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing > so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples > of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of > partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that > it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at > 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also > experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber > where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the > shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. > 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a > single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free > radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is > overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified > understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more > quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust > that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is > drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to > avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting > equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress > could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility > of success. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing > so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples > of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of > partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that > it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at > 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also > experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber > where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the > shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. > 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a > single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free > radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is > overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified > understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more > quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust > that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is > drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to > avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting > equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress > could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility > of success. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Very well said Sean. > > I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression > sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that > situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would > be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert > gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time > to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of > ascent might be an issue. > > The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause > loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to > that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. > Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having > exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas > to verify its operation. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing > so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples > of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of > partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that > it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at > 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also > experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber > where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the > shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. > 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a > single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free > radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is > overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified > understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more > quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust > that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is > drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to > avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting > equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress > could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility > of success. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing > so. > > Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples > of this. > > The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of > partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that > it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at > 218 fsw. > > Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also > experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber > where tolerance is greater. > > It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the > shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. > 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a > single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) > > The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free > radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is > overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified > understanding of it. > > The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more > quickly a person may be affected. > > As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust > that is enough to keep us alive. > > Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is > drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. > > In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to > avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting > equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress > could predispose to ox tox also. > > If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility > of success. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And > free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. > > > > Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely > because of oxygen toxicity? > > > > Great analysis ! > > > > Brian > > > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel > qualified to comment on this. > > Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is > borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired > under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. > > Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in > varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be > tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into > consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. > > The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial > pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these > are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably > drowning. > > Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this > means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. > For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. > The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will > produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial > pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport > oxygen into the body.. > > In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. > > 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie > travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to > this discussion) > > 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to > maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very > expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. > > I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when > escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas > without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. > > 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the > surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) > > An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with > 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) > > The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure > using air. > > Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and > even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. > > Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient > breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is > increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing > your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of > approximately 218 ft. > > I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A > > If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Sean, > > Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. > > I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping > > at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for > > escape for those classes of submersibles. > > Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A > conventional > > life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't > > Inflate much against the water pressure. > > We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms > > and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the > narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? > I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable > to leave the bottom. > > Sean > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming > > through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. > > Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required > > to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward > > the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible > > due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out > anyway. > > Alan > > > On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me > in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how > big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you > had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets > say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is > 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. > Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened > the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose > in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your > cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 > feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized > because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Shanee > > > > Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free > accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize > to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits > for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid > pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and > as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at > 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would > have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to > make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are > that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at > possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws > up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface > in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me > time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal > as possible. > > Rick > > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, > blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my > whole life! > > > > Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them > myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects > happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very > familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm > not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other > than all your organs getting squished, of course. > > > > Thanks for your input everybody! > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Shanee, > > > > That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. > But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a > flashlight. > > > > Best, > > Alec > > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what > 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): > > > > *CG requirements* > > air horn > > whistle > > life jackets > > fire extinguisher > > > > *safety* > > fire blanket > > 2x scuba masks > > 2x spare air > > primary gas analyzer > > backup gas analyzer > > spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered > > handheld radios > > uw radio system > > > > *repair kit* > > gorilla tape > > electrical tape > > butyl tape > > zip tie assortment > > spare battery terminals > > spare wire connectors > > spare wire > > splash zone > > JB weld > > steel tie wire > > steel strap > > e6000 glue > > hose clamp assortment > > screwdriver set > > adjustable wrench > > multi-tool > > hammer > > scissors > > > > What's in your kits? > > > > Best, > > Shanee > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > -- > > Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project > > > > ::::: > > > > 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal > cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness > crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo > Levi > > > > ::::: > > > > 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host > of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is > all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human > matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves > in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of > an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other > eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of > wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other > voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities > to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, > and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 16:14:35 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 22:14:35 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: hello all, on board pilot fish I have: for surface: inflatable life jackets portable VHF, walkie talkie if I count what is in the emergency buoy: flash probe that activates when the buoy tilts up when released, spot trace satellite tracker. I also have small 4L air tanks with regs just outside the hatch. they can be used for full external blow of MBTs (just connecting direct system to the MBT), or for emergency ascent if we have still an active neuron to grab it when exiting (we have no real steinke hoods). True if we ascend from deep down, we could be narced and hyperoxied. But hopefully this emergency ascent would be plan F after plan A, B, C, D, E... I don't think the oxy is the issue. with a short ascent you can probably tolerate high oxy partial pressure up to 3bar temporarily, whereas if you arrive on surface hypoxied, you may well die. and highish oxy will always be good to desaturate air/helium. inside: fire extinguisher air sensors (O2, CO2, CO) barometer and humidity level. CO2 scrubber and charcoal+catalyst filter to remove smell. small tool box from soft material (was the protective bag for my hand grinder) with a bunch of key tools and consumables needed on board. I had some glue in it to fix potential holes in flexible water bladder but removed it due to the smell. paperwork (plastified registration of sub for UK flag, radio license, some plastified diagrams of the systems on the sub) UW phone 2 regs for spare air and 2 diving masks box with basic first aid stuff and tissues/garbage bags. toddler toilet seat with soft cushioning to ensure air tightness between butt and shitbags. small laptops with all classic submarine movies cushion and recline seat to sleep regards Antoine Garanti sans virus. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >> >> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas >> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable >> to breathing air at 80 fsw. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 >> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to >> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Sean. >> >> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> >> >> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone >> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure >> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to >> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt >> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make >> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I >> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as >> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface >> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an >> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >> >> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates >> the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you >> must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >> >> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >> >> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >> better safety margin. >> >> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >> >> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >> to verify its operation. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >> to verify its operation. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > Garanti sans virus. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 18:51:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 22:51:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 19:34:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:34:32 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 19:38:43 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:38:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 20:56:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:56:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. ?I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. ?An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. ?E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 21:25:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 01:25:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <343868975.205872.1556069145473@mail.yahoo.com> I have been following this thread with interest because it is highly relative to me.? The R300 if an operational, one atm boat with a maximum operating depth of 300 ft.? NOP calls for not operating the boat where bottom is deeper than 300 ft.??I have a flowchart that is accessible from pilot HMI to the help pilot make a bailout no bailout decision.? Key is bailout is last resort if :1) boat is flooding2) there is fire on board3) CO2% is greater than 1% (10,000 PPM)?4) O2%< 13%5) Cabin pressure is >18psia and climbing6) Atmosphere is toxic7) Depth is less than 450 ftThese criteria came out of a US Navy safety document for the Steinke hood.? Because I have a small sub, I don't have room for any of the mixed gas options being discussed.? I do have a BIBS.? Given the stress the operator would be under, I think Sean calls out the only practical solution for my boat which is buoyant emergency ascent.? If I have to bail, I have a Steinke hood on board.? The calculations for a 300 ft bailout for my boat with a 1" NPT? scuttle valve (ball type) is that the water level in at boat will reach chest level in 64 seconds with the pressure at that point being 44 psia.? At 94 seconds the pressure in the boat has equalized and the hatch will snap open.? The ascent rate for the Steinke hood from US Navy documentation is 425 ft/min for a fully inflated hood.? In a perfect world I would have 100% O2 on surface.?? The specific steps I would take on making the decision to bailout are:? ? ? ? ? ? 1.???? Releasehatch latches.??????????? 2.???? Turnon the dive light attached to life jacket.? ? ? ? ? ?3.???? Locate?Steinke hood?, set snorkel valve to ?open position? and place hood over headand bite down on mouth piece. ??????????? 4.???? Orallyinflate the ?Steinke hood? ballast chamber. ??????????? 5.???? Turnoff both the master switch and the circuit breaker. ??????????? 6.???? Fullyopen scuttle valve.? ? ? ?? 7.???? Whenwater level reaches level A (approximately chest level), repeat oral inflationof Steinke hood ballast chamber, close snorkel valveon Steinke hood and grip hatch handle.? ? ? ? ? ? 8.???? Whenhatch opens, launch yourself upwards through the hatch. Breathe normally during ascent to prevent lung over inflation.? ? ? ? ? 9.???? Onsurfacing, open snorkel valve to breathe surface air then inflate (embedded CO2cartridge) life jacket to increase buoyancy. If calm sea state, remove Steinkehood. I like Sean's caveat and agree completely,??"To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. I am going to get narced badly and I am probably?going to burst my ear drums during ascent but given the relatively?short exposure time to air at depth, I don't think decompression sickness will be my top concern. What I would really like to do is do a training?bailout at this depth in a controlled environment?with safety divers on hand to see how bad the nitrogen?narcosis is at 300 ft.? My only experience?with?nitrogen?narcosis was as part of my Advanced Open Water PADI certification.?? Cliff On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:52:11 PM CDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Emergency procedure.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 92834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 23 23:45:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 15:45:12 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <0b0001d4fa50$21194960$634bdc20$@gmail.com> Thanks Sean, Tom et al, It certainly is a complex subject. I think that my original idea is best. I designed my sub to do only 400 ft for safety but really not to go over about 200 because 400 is where you Techy divers can get to and if all else fails then there is a reasonable chance that a decent rope can be attached and winch it up. Hopefully within 3 days. My float rope is good for 2000 lbs so if entangled a decent winch and blowing ballast would hopefully dislodge me. Mean time I?m going to try and get my head around it all. What mechanical brand would be regarded as best? Just for playing with to understand a little of what is going on? Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2019 12:23 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Thanks Sean. What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. Just running some numbers for gas quantities... At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 00:12:28 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 14:12:28 +1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant > sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for > one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod > making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution > however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance > as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been > following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that > some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit > bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In > terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which > maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very > confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, > often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get > you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR > duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of > operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen > level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually > - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be > integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional > answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 02:22:08 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:22:08 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant >> sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for >> one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod >> making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution >> however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance >> as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been >> following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that >> some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit >> bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In >> terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which >> maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very >> confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, >> often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get >> you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR >> duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of >> operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen >> level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually >> - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be >> integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional >> answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >> submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >> untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >> for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >> anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. >> each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >> dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >> submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >> untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >> for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >> anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. >> each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >> dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 03:15:23 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:15:23 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8BABE22D-CF37-415D-9561-31D9432ABE3F@yahoo.com> Shanee, Sounds like you need to add to your list a pen & pad to say goodbye to your loved ones & make adjustments to your will. And don't forget to leave a note for Psubs to explain what went wrong as we would all be interested! Alan > On 24/04/2019, at 6:22 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug > >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> David Colombo >>>>> >>>>> 804 College Ave >>>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> David Colombo >>>>> >>>>> 804 College Ave >>>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 05:58:30 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:58:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1529719494.351135.1556099910342@mail.yahoo.com> I built my escape pod because I am pretty darn sure I would not survive a emergency bail out. ?I am not a diver and can't really swim either. ?The escape pod is only good for one person and is not tested. ?A good friend is always nagging at me to put a Kevlar buoy line on Gamma strong enough to lift the sub even full of water. ?I always argue cost and will the rope be strong enough to overcome the entanglement. ?I think we figured it would cost 5K but maybe it would be well worth it. ?In my case it would make sense because I already have a lifting barge capable of lifting 6,000 lbs with its centre mounted winch. ?the barge is even portable with no permits. ?I would like to hear ideas around this idea. ?I would be willing to do this unless there is something I am missing?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 12:22:30 AM MDT, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug? On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 06:08:03 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:08:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1529719494.351135.1556099910342@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1529719494.351135.1556099910342@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2021870177.316317.1556100483331@mail.yahoo.com> Wow, looks like Kevlar rope has come way down in price. ?For 1500 dollars you can have a 600 foot rope that has a tensile strength of 9500 lbs. ? ?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 3:58:52 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I built my escape pod because I am pretty darn sure I would not survive a emergency bail out. ?I am not a diver and can't really swim either. ?The escape pod is only good for one person and is not tested. ?A good friend is always nagging at me to put a Kevlar buoy line on Gamma strong enough to lift the sub even full of water. ?I always argue cost and will the rope be strong enough to overcome the entanglement. ?I think we figured it would cost 5K but maybe it would be well worth it. ?In my case it would make sense because I already have a lifting barge capable of lifting 6,000 lbs with its centre mounted winch. ?the barge is even portable with no permits. ?I would like to hear ideas around this idea. ?I would be willing to do this unless there is something I am missing?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 12:22:30 AM MDT, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug? On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 11:26:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 15:26:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1881484967.5083344.1556119575447@mail.yahoo.com> Slight off-topic, thanks to Sean, Tom, Rick, Stephen and others for sharing their expertise on this topic.? You guys are incredible and an absolute wealth of knowledge.? Can't believe how lucky we are to have you in our group. My own thoughts are that in terms of actual implementation Stephen's message is the most realistic.? It's not just the R300 that doesn't have room to carry the gaseous equipment for such escape, it's almost certainly the vast majority of K-subs and those based off the Kittredge design.? That's why taking this activity seriously, fabricating to standards, testing to standards, peer review by fellow submariners, maintenance and safety plans is so important.? Our greatest and most dependable safety plan is a vessel that survives diving parameters and returns to the surface every time.? That reduces risk to issues such as entanglement that might necessitate escape, however like all extreme activities I think it is axiomatic that ours is not without risk. Jon From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 15:45:17 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:45:17 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <2021870177.316317.1556100483331@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1529719494.351135.1556099910342@mail.yahoo.com> <2021870177.316317.1556100483331@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, I think putting a strong line on your sub may be more of a danger than a benefit. If you were dragging it with a float it may get caught in an underwater tree or structure. Or if it came loose it could tangle. That is why, apart from the size, I am planning on using a 150lb braid. At least I could break free. Alan > On 24/04/2019, at 10:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Wow, looks like Kevlar rope has come way down in price. For 1500 dollars you can have a 600 foot rope that has a tensile strength of 9500 lbs. > Hank > > On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 3:58:52 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I built my escape pod because I am pretty darn sure I would not survive a emergency bail out. I am not a diver and can't really swim either. The escape pod is only good for one person and is not tested. A good friend is always nagging at me to put a Kevlar buoy line on Gamma strong enough to lift the sub even full of water. I always argue cost and will the rope be strong enough to overcome the entanglement. I think we figured it would cost 5K but maybe it would be well worth it. In my case it would make sense because I already have a lifting barge capable of lifting 6,000 lbs with its centre mounted winch. the barge is even portable with no permits. > I would like to hear ideas around this idea. I would be willing to do this unless there is something I am missing? > Hank > > On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 12:22:30 AM MDT, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 15:49:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:49:47 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1881484967.5083344.1556119575447@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1881484967.5083344.1556119575447@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, I will add to that; designing & maintaining a sub that is entanglement free. Alec hit a cable & was catapulted backward, the R300 got caught on a rope & my ambient on it's first pool test got caught on a rope before it went 10ft. Alan > On 25/04/2019, at 3:26 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Slight off-topic, thanks to Sean, Tom, Rick, Stephen and others for sharing their expertise on this topic. You guys are incredible and an absolute wealth of knowledge. Can't believe how lucky we are to have you in our group. > > My own thoughts are that in terms of actual implementation Stephen's message is the most realistic. It's not just the R300 that doesn't have room to carry the gaseous equipment for such escape, it's almost certainly the vast majority of K-subs and those based off the Kittredge design. That's why taking this activity seriously, fabricating to standards, testing to standards, peer review by fellow submariners, maintenance and safety plans is so important. Our greatest and most dependable safety plan is a vessel that survives diving parameters and returns to the surface every time. That reduces risk to issues such as entanglement that might necessitate escape, however like all extreme activities I think it is axiomatic that ours is not without risk. > > Jon > > From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 12:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 15:52:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:52:49 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is what makes this site so valuable!!! Rick On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >> >> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas >> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable >> to breathing air at 80 fsw. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 >> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to >> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Sean. >> >> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> >> >> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone >> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure >> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to >> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt >> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make >> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I >> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as >> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface >> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an >> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >> >> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates >> the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you >> must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >> >> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >> >> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >> better safety margin. >> >> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >> >> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >> to verify its operation. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Very well said Sean. >> >> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >> >> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >> to verify its operation. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing >> so. >> >> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples >> of this. >> >> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >> 218 fsw. >> >> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >> where tolerance is greater. >> >> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the >> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. >> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a >> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >> >> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >> understanding of it. >> >> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >> more quickly a person may be affected. >> >> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >> that is enough to keep us alive. >> >> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >> >> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >> could predispose to ox tox also. >> >> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility >> of success. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And >> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >> >> >> >> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >> >> >> >> Great analysis ! >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >> >> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >> qualified to comment on this. >> >> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >> >> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >> >> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >> is inevitably drowning. >> >> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >> oxygen into the body.. >> >> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >> >> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie >> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >> this discussion) >> >> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >> >> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >> >> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >> >> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with >> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >> >> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >> using air. >> >> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and >> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >> >> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >> approximately 218 ft. >> >> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >> >> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >> >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> Sean, >> >> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >> >> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >> >> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >> >> escape for those classes of submersibles. >> >> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >> conventional >> >> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >> >> Inflate much against the water pressure. >> >> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >> >> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >> to leave the bottom. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >> >> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >> >> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >> >> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >> >> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >> >> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >> anyway. >> >> Alan >> >> >> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >> as possible. >> >> Rick >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >> whole life! >> >> >> >> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input everybody! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Shanee, >> >> >> >> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. >> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a >> flashlight. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what >> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >> >> >> >> *CG requirements* >> >> air horn >> >> whistle >> >> life jackets >> >> fire extinguisher >> >> >> >> *safety* >> >> fire blanket >> >> 2x scuba masks >> >> 2x spare air >> >> primary gas analyzer >> >> backup gas analyzer >> >> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >> >> handheld radios >> >> uw radio system >> >> >> >> *repair kit* >> >> gorilla tape >> >> electrical tape >> >> butyl tape >> >> zip tie assortment >> >> spare battery terminals >> >> spare wire connectors >> >> spare wire >> >> splash zone >> >> JB weld >> >> steel tie wire >> >> steel strap >> >> e6000 glue >> >> hose clamp assortment >> >> screwdriver set >> >> adjustable wrench >> >> multi-tool >> >> hammer >> >> scissors >> >> >> >> What's in your kits? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Shanee >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >> Levi >> >> >> >> ::::: >> >> >> >> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 16:00:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:00:42 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: As soon as I sent in my request for who has the emergency buoy that activates when tilted, the person at the top of the long thread appeared in my inbox with who I was looking for at the top. That was fast! Antoine guess that was you. Let me know the brand and model and maker if you can for your emergency buoy strobe. Also, did it come in a water tight housing rated for depth or did you have to make a housing for it? Thanks Rick On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 10:16 AM Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > hello all, > > on board pilot fish I have: > > for surface: > inflatable life jackets > portable VHF, walkie talkie > if I count what is in the emergency buoy: flash probe that activates when > the buoy tilts up when released, spot trace satellite tracker. > I also have small 4L air tanks with regs just outside the hatch. they can > be used for full external blow of MBTs (just connecting direct system to > the MBT), or for emergency ascent if we have still an active neuron to grab > it when exiting (we have no real steinke hoods). True if we ascend from > deep down, we could be narced and hyperoxied. But hopefully this emergency > ascent would be plan F after plan A, B, C, D, E... > I don't think the oxy is the issue. with a short ascent you can probably > tolerate high oxy partial pressure up to 3bar temporarily, whereas if you > arrive on surface hypoxied, you may well die. and highish oxy will always > be good to desaturate air/helium. > > inside: > fire extinguisher > air sensors (O2, CO2, CO) barometer and humidity level. CO2 scrubber and > charcoal+catalyst filter to remove smell. > small tool box from soft material (was the protective bag for my hand > grinder) with a bunch of key tools and consumables needed on board. I had > some glue in it to fix potential holes in flexible water bladder but > removed it due to the smell. > paperwork (plastified registration of sub for UK flag, radio license, some > plastified diagrams of the systems on the sub) > UW phone > 2 regs for spare air and 2 diving masks > box with basic first aid stuff and tissues/garbage bags. > toddler toilet seat with soft cushioning to ensure air tightness between > butt and shitbags. > small laptops with all classic submarine movies > cushion and recline seat to sleep > > regards > Antoine > > > Garanti > sans virus. www.avg.com > > <#m_8768351155908240777_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 PM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >>> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>> >>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas >>> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable >>> to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 >>> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to >>> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Sean. >>> >>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >>> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >>> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> >>> >>> >>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone >>> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure >>> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to >>> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt >>> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make >>> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I >>> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as >>> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface >>> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an >>> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>> >>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement >>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill >>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>> >>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >>> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>> >>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >>> better safety margin. >>> >>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>> >>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 >>> CFM. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Very well said Sean. >>> >>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>> >>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >>> to verify its operation. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Very well said Sean. >>> >>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>> >>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >>> to verify its operation. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > > Garanti > sans virus. www.avg.com > > <#m_8768351155908240777_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 16:02:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1529719494.351135.1556099910342@mail.yahoo.com> <2021870177.316317.1556100483331@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77671055.12300.1556136166748@mail.yahoo.com> Alan. I am not talking a permanent buoy line. I mean a spool with float that is released in an emergency?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 1:45:42 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank,I think putting a strong line on your sub may be more of a danger than a?benefit. If you were dragging it with a float it may get caught in an underwatertree or structure. Or if it came loose it could tangle.That is why, apart from the size, I am planning on using a 150lb braid. At leastI could break free.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:08 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Wow, looks like Kevlar rope has come way down in price. ?For 1500 dollars you can have a 600 foot rope that has a tensile strength of 9500 lbs. ? ?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 3:58:52 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I built my escape pod because I am pretty darn sure I would not survive a emergency bail out. ?I am not a diver and can't really swim either. ?The escape pod is only good for one person and is not tested. ?A good friend is always nagging at me to put a Kevlar buoy line on Gamma strong enough to lift the sub even full of water. ?I always argue cost and will the rope be strong enough to overcome the entanglement. ?I think we figured it would cost 5K but maybe it would be well worth it. ?In my case it would make sense because I already have a lifting barge capable of lifting 6,000 lbs with its centre mounted winch. ?the barge is even portable with no permits. ?I would like to hear ideas around this idea. ?I would be willing to do this unless there is something I am missing?Hank On Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 12:22:30 AM MDT, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I do not speak with the same authority as Steve (being an experienced technical diver and all) but in my own opinion, the idea of bailing out of a sub at ANY depth seems crazy. In my own mind, I've always likened U/W escape to wearing a parachute while flying in an airplane. Yes, theoretically in some situations it will save you, but practically speaking it seems like more of a false sense of security than a practical solution for survival. Then again, if your situation is so dire that you're about to die anyway, might as well give it a shot. Personally, I would rather believe someone on the surface is going to be able to perform a rescue with lift bags where I can get back to the surface dry. ~ Doug? On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:13 AM Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 17:20:09 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 21:20:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] VAST boat rejoins the fleet Message-ID: Alec Smyth and I spent the morning helping Mark Ragan launch his refurbished Kittridge original. A pocket sub ready again for adventures! https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwo-EY7hiZy/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=sbm69g6907ul Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 18:05:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:05:45 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 21:35:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:35:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Silicone Message-ID: <20190424183551.4C88EBB9@m0117566.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Apr 24 22:03:10 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 16:03:10 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Silicone In-Reply-To: <20190424183551.4C88EBB9@m0117566.ppops.net> References: <20190424183551.4C88EBB9@m0117566.ppops.net> Message-ID: Thanks Brian, There is a Sherwin Williams on the Island which is not far away so they can probably barge it the their outlet here if Oahu guy's don't have it. I bought my sailboat down in Long Beach and shipped her up I-5 to Seattle. Rick On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 3:36 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I was just down a the Long Beach ProLine paint Co. ( > owned by Sherman Williams) I was asking about shipping to Hawaii. They > were telling me that there is a Sherman Williams in Honolulu that does a > lot of business with the Navy. ( I believe there is some sort of Navy base > there, Pearl something) Anyway , the epoxy barrier product that you want > is called Seaguard 5000 HS epoxy , then there is the coating that goes > over that which is a polyurethane , but I'm not sure what that would be as > far as a Sherman Williams product name, but the ProLine name is 4800 > polyurethane . So Basically everything comes out of their Reno warehouse > and would go to Oakland or LA to get shipped over, which would take a > couple of weeks if they didn't have it in stock. They could get the > Proline Poly 4800 for you unless there is an equivalent Sherman Williams > paint, but make sure that it is a fully immersible grade . They can't ship > by air. > > Brian > > > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Silicone > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 07:46:23 -1000 > > Alan > There is only one boat yard on the Island and all they do is provide slips > with no water or power for your boat and dry storage for smaller boats. > They lease out space for vendors like a machine shop and such but pretty > primitive. I'll see if I can find a vendor that can do a professional job > of painting but not holding my breath. This is a third world setting but at > least it's nice weather and water! > Rick > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 8:49 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > Are there any boat yards near you that might do it. > Even if they just sand blast it & prime it. > I presume you won't be keeping your sub permanently in the water so no > Need for anti fouling. > Alan > > On 27/03/2019, at 7:00 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Brian, I'll ring them up tomorrow. This is part of the sub building > process that I am NOT looking forward to. I hate painting! > Rick > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 7:52 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, I get my paint from an outfit in Long Beach - Pro-Line paint. > It's a two paint process, the undercoat is epoxy barrier coat ( two part) > and the final coat is a linear polyurethane ( also two parts) > > Brian > > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: > > From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Silicone > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 17:09:53 -1000 > > Thanks guys > Dan H said he used an epoxy paint of some sort but they discontinued it > because it caused cancer, I think he said emron or something but I thought > the gist of the group here used an epoxy paint but when I mentioned that > the other day at our Sherwin-Williams, they were adamant that it shouldn't > be used in a semi underwater application, but like Jon says, I don't know > any that are. > Jon, let me know if you can locate what you were talking about and David, > go ahead and send me your contact in Cal. > Thanks again > Just had another pretty big earthquake but no Lava this time > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 4:50 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > > Ditto what David Colombo wrote. I wish I could remember how the Sherwin > Williams Rep steered us back in 2012 (I think it was) but there were > certain products that they had which he highly recommended although none of > them were in any way associated for underwater application. I'm going to > have to search through archives to see if I can pick up any info. > > Absent that, epoxy based paint is used by most that I am aware of. I know > Alec Smyth just used a roller for SNOOPY which provided a matt orange-peel > type finish instead of a high gloss sheen, but like he said, it was wicked > easy to patch a scratch or scrape that inevitably shows up due to bumping > into things, etc. I am likely going to follow that lead on the K-600. > > Jon > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2019 8:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Silicone > > Thanks Ian > I know there are a lot of boats out there that are painted so was > surprised to not get any feedback. > Sherwin-Williams here on the big island said that they don't have anything > that will work for an underwater application. > Rick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 03:42:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:42:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 19:01:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 01:01:46 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, I did mention the tilting buoy. it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy upright. the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to lifevests like https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well; [image: image.png] regards Antoine On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board > for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was > activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of > accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate > knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. > Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is > what makes this site so valuable!!! > Rick > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >>> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>> >>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas >>> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable >>> to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 >>> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to >>> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Sean. >>> >>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >>> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >>> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> >>> >>> >>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone >>> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure >>> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to >>> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt >>> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make >>> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I >>> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as >>> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface >>> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an >>> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>> >>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement >>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill >>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>> >>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >>> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>> >>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >>> better safety margin. >>> >>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>> >>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 >>> CFM. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Very well said Sean. >>> >>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>> >>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >>> to verify its operation. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Very well said Sean. >>> >>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>> >>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause >>> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to >>> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. >>> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having >>> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas >>> to verify its operation. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>> doing so. >>> >>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>> examples of this. >>> >>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>> 218 fsw. >>> >>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>> where tolerance is greater. >>> >>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>> >>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>> understanding of it. >>> >>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>> >>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>> >>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is >>> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>> >>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>> >>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>> possibility of success. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>> >>> >>> >>> Great analysis ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>> >>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>> qualified to comment on this. >>> >>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>> >>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>> >>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>> is inevitably drowning. >>> >>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>> oxygen into the body.. >>> >>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>> >>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>> this discussion) >>> >>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to >>> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>> >>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>> >>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>> >>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>> >>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>> using air. >>> >>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>> >>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>> approximately 218 ft. >>> >>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>> >>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean, >>> >>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>> >>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>> >>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>> >>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>> >>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>> conventional >>> >>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>> >>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>> >>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>> >>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>> passenger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>> to leave the bottom. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>> >>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>> >>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>> >>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>> toward >>> >>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>> impossible >>> >>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>> anyway. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me >>> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how >>> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you >>> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets >>> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is >>> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>> as possible. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>> whole life! >>> >>> >>> >>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shanee, >>> >>> >>> >>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>> thing... a flashlight. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>> >>> >>> >>> *CG requirements* >>> >>> air horn >>> >>> whistle >>> >>> life jackets >>> >>> fire extinguisher >>> >>> >>> >>> *safety* >>> >>> fire blanket >>> >>> 2x scuba masks >>> >>> 2x spare air >>> >>> primary gas analyzer >>> >>> backup gas analyzer >>> >>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>> >>> handheld radios >>> >>> uw radio system >>> >>> >>> >>> *repair kit* >>> >>> gorilla tape >>> >>> electrical tape >>> >>> butyl tape >>> >>> zip tie assortment >>> >>> spare battery terminals >>> >>> spare wire connectors >>> >>> spare wire >>> >>> splash zone >>> >>> JB weld >>> >>> steel tie wire >>> >>> steel strap >>> >>> e6000 glue >>> >>> hose clamp assortment >>> >>> screwdriver set >>> >>> adjustable wrench >>> >>> multi-tool >>> >>> hammer >>> >>> scissors >>> >>> >>> >>> What's in your kits? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Shanee >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>> Levi >>> >>> >>> >>> ::::: >>> >>> >>> >>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host >>> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is >>> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1065599 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 21:24:25 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 18:24:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] potentiometer issues Message-ID: <20190425182425.4C8A56D2@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 21:38:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:38:44 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 38654 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 21:39:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:39:54 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Looks pretty impressive Antoine, well done. Alan > On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I did mention the tilting buoy. > it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure > I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy upright. > the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to lifevests like https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 > the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well; > > > regards > Antoine > >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. >> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is what makes this site so valuable!!! >> Rick >> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>>> >>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Sean. >>>> >>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>>> >>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>>> >>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>>> >>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. >>>> >>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>>> >>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 21:53:56 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:53:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: This is a bit out of my realm, but the topic has me intrigued. Are these available to be used? https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Submarine_Escape_Immersion_Equipment.html Get Outlook for Android On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:40 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Looks pretty impressive Antoine,well done.Alan On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Rick, I did mention the tilting buoy.?it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressureI has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy upright.?the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to lifevests like?https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well;? regardsAntoine? On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy.?Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is what makes this site so valuable!!! Rick On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Thanks Sean. What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at ?350 ? 400 ft.? Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths.? Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving.? It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep.? Regards, Hugh ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear ? 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. Just running some numbers for gas quantities... At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. Get Outlook for Android ? On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness.? I wonder,? if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness.? I wonder,? if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure.? This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure,? the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say!? I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.? ?And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.? ? ? Tom,? ?does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? ? ?Great analysis? ! ? Brian ? --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,? what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem,? but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum? to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.? Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature,? I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".? ? Best, Alec?? ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Shanee ? Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! ? Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.? ? Thanks for your input everybody! ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Shanee, ? That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. ? Best, Alec ? On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, ? I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):? ? CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher ? safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system ? repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue? hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors ? What's in your kits? ? Best, Shanee ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ? ::::: ? 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi? ? ::::: ? 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Looks pretty impressive Antoine, well done. Alan > On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I did mention the tilting buoy. > it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure > I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy upright. > the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to lifevests like https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 > the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well; > > > regards > Antoine > >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. >> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is what makes this site so valuable!!! >> Rick >> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>>> >>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Sean. >>>> >>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>>> >>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>>> >>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>>> >>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. >>>> >>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>>> >>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CG requirements >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> safety >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> repair kit >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 22:05:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:05:22 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: Here's a link. Wonder if we could get a PSubs discount? https://survitecgroup.com/survitecproducts/15494/SEIEMK11 Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Apr 25 22:44:44 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 16:44:44 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Antoine Thanks for the reply. That's quite a set up you have there. Do you happen to know what the depth rating is for the housing? Rick On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:04 PM Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Rick, > I did mention the tilting buoy. > it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two > caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure > I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker > beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection > between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or > thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy > upright. > the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach > to lifevests like > https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 > the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool > (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I > tested it at night live and it works pretty well; > [image: image.png] > > regards > Antoine > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board >> for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was >> activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of >> accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate >> knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. >> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is >> what makes this site so valuable!!! >> Rick >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >>> 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >>>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >>>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >>>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >>>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >>>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >>>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >>>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >>>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >>>> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>>> >>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the >>>> gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect >>>> comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a >>>> PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer >>>> to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >>>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >>>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >>>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >>>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >>>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >>>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >>>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >>>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Sean. >>>> >>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >>>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >>>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >>>> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >>>> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >>>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic >>>> zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric >>>> pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency >>>> response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, >>>> prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can >>>> make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. >>>> If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then >>>> 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without >>>> surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for >>>> an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >>>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >>>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >>>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >>>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>>> >>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement >>>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill >>>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>>> >>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >>>> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>>> >>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >>>> better safety margin. >>>> >>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>>> >>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 >>>> CFM. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1065599 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 00:44:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 18:44:20 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Antoine Looked up the strobe web site you gave me. Neat little unit. I see it's depth rating is 328' as it is so I would be pushing the limits at 350' Did you build the tilt switch or buy it and if so where did you buy it. Rick On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 4:44 PM Rick Patton wrote: > Antoine > > Thanks for the reply. That's quite a set up you have there. Do you happen > to know what the depth rating is for the housing? > Rick > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:04 PM Antoine Delafargue via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Hi Rick, >> I did mention the tilting buoy. >> it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two >> caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure >> I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker >> beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection >> between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or >> thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy >> upright. >> the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach >> to lifevests like >> https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 >> the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool >> (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I >> tested it at night live and it works pretty well; >> [image: image.png] >> >> regards >> Antoine >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on >>> board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe >>> that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of >>> accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate >>> knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. >>> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is >>> what makes this site so valuable!!! >>> Rick >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >>>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >>>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >>>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >>>> 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >>>>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >>>>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >>>>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >>>>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >>>>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >>>>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >>>>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >>>>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >>>>> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>>>> >>>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the >>>>> gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect >>>>> comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a >>>>> PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer >>>>> to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >>>>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >>>>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >>>>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >>>>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >>>>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >>>>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >>>>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >>>>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Sean. >>>>> >>>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. >>>>> Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I >>>>> can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look >>>>> at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable >>>>> simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >>>>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>>>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic >>>>> zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric >>>>> pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency >>>>> response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, >>>>> prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can >>>>> make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. >>>>> If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then >>>>> 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without >>>>> surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for >>>>> an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >>>>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >>>>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >>>>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >>>>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>>>> >>>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement >>>>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill >>>>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>>>> >>>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on >>>>> the minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>>>> >>>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides >>>>> a better safety margin. >>>>> >>>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>>>> >>>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 >>>>> CFM. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Very well said Sean. >>>>> >>>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>>> >>>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>>> doing so. >>>>> >>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>>> examples of this. >>>>> >>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>>> 218 fsw. >>>>> >>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>>> >>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>>> >>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>>> understanding of it. >>>>> >>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>>> >>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>>> >>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>>> >>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>>> >>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>>> possibility of success. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>>> doing so. >>>>> >>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>>> examples of this. >>>>> >>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>>> 218 fsw. >>>>> >>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>>> >>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>>> >>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>>> understanding of it. >>>>> >>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>>> >>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>>> >>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>>> >>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>>> >>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>>> possibility of success. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Very well said Sean. >>>>> >>>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>>> >>>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>>> doing so. >>>>> >>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>>> examples of this. >>>>> >>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>>> 218 fsw. >>>>> >>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>>> >>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>>> >>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>>> understanding of it. >>>>> >>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>>> >>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>>> >>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>>> >>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>>> >>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>>> possibility of success. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>>> doing so. >>>>> >>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>>> examples of this. >>>>> >>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>>> 218 fsw. >>>>> >>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>>> >>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>>> >>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>>> understanding of it. >>>>> >>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>>> >>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>>> >>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>>> >>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>>> >>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>>> possibility of success. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Great analysis ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>>> >>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>>> >>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and >>>>> helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would >>>>> have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>>> >>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>>> >>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>>> >>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>>> >>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>>> this discussion) >>>>> >>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>>> >>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>>> >>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>>> >>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent >>>>> exposure using air. >>>>> >>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>>> >>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your >>>>> ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside >>>>> is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be >>>>> breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a >>>>> depth of approximately 218 ft. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sean, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>>> >>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for >>>>> escaping >>>>> >>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>>> >>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>>> >>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>>> conventional >>>>> >>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>>> >>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>>> >>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>>> >>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>>> passenger. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>>> to leave the bottom. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>>> >>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>>> sub. >>>>> >>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>>> required >>>>> >>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>>> toward >>>>> >>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>>> impossible >>>>> >>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>>> anyway. >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>>> whole life! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shanee, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CG requirements* >>>>> >>>>> air horn >>>>> >>>>> whistle >>>>> >>>>> life jackets >>>>> >>>>> fire extinguisher >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *safety* >>>>> >>>>> fire blanket >>>>> >>>>> 2x scuba masks >>>>> >>>>> 2x spare air >>>>> >>>>> primary gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> backup gas analyzer >>>>> >>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>>> >>>>> handheld radios >>>>> >>>>> uw radio system >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *repair kit* >>>>> >>>>> gorilla tape >>>>> >>>>> electrical tape >>>>> >>>>> butyl tape >>>>> >>>>> zip tie assortment >>>>> >>>>> spare battery terminals >>>>> >>>>> spare wire connectors >>>>> >>>>> spare wire >>>>> >>>>> splash zone >>>>> >>>>> JB weld >>>>> >>>>> steel tie wire >>>>> >>>>> steel strap >>>>> >>>>> e6000 glue >>>>> >>>>> hose clamp assortment >>>>> >>>>> screwdriver set >>>>> >>>>> adjustable wrench >>>>> >>>>> multi-tool >>>>> >>>>> hammer >>>>> >>>>> scissors >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What's in your kits? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Shanee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our >>>>> verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of >>>>> playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the >>>>> clouds.' ~ Primo Levi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ::::: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1065599 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 01:39:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 17:39:40 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 02:46:45 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:46:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <1556261205513.2211097.1e39acf51b02952f7144a35088d0210e7292f731@spica.telekom.de> Hi Antoine, nice work, looks like a copy of Euronauts optronic mast.. :-) Its 100 x 10 mm by 2 meters acrylic and as pipe normaly use in the chemical industry up to an internal pressur of 80 bars. Make sure that in not use condition it will be covered against sun light. https://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_2894.JPG vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T03:41:58+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Looks pretty impressive Antoine, well done. Alan On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Rick, I did mention the tilting buoy. it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy upright. the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach to lifevests like https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well; regards Antoine On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is what makes this site so valuable!!! Rick On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen. END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Sean. What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto: personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org ] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas. At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a better safety margin. Just running some numbers for gas quantities... At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Very well said Sean. I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity? Great analysis ! Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning. Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion) 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft. I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Sean, Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for escape for those classes of submersibles. Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't Inflate much against the water pressure. We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub. Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway. Alan On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Shanee Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible. Rick On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life! Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. Thanks for your input everybody! On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Shanee, That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight. Best, Alec On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): CG requirements air horn whistle life jackets fire extinguisher safety fire blanket 2x scuba masks 2x spare air primary gas analyzer backup gas analyzer spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered handheld radios uw radio system repair kit gorilla tape electrical tape butyl tape zip tie assortment spare battery terminals spare wire connectors spare wire splash zone JB weld steel tie wire steel strap e6000 glue hose clamp assortment screwdriver set adjustable wrench multi-tool hammer scissors What's in your kits? Best, Shanee -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project ::::: 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi ::::: 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 04:12:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 01:12:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive manuals, checklists, operations and maintenance documentation Message-ID: Hi all, I know most of you are not in my situation of needing to do regular knowledge transfers, but I am wondering what kinds of documentation you have/keep for operations and maintenance of your subs. We are starting to put our manuals, courses, checklists and maintenance plans together and want to make sure we are not forgetting essential topics (don't worry, we are of course also working with professional sub pilots/engineers!) I'm interested in getting as many perspectives as possible on what the essential knowledge for pilots and crew is. I'm also trying to learn as much about the systems people use to keep operations running safely and smoothly, both in the water and at home in between dives. I know this is a very broad topic, and I'm looking forward to hearing people's thoughts in whatever direction you want to take it. Also as an aside, I will do my best to create documentation that synthesizes the information everyone shares on these topics I'm inquiring about. The last thread about escape methods and safety should be summarized for easy digestion of incredible knowledge! Thanks again, this group is indispensable! Best, Shanee -- ::::: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 07:06:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:06:32 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556261205513.2211097.1e39acf51b02952f7144a35088d0210e7292f731@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <0a4201d4f997$a2be37a0$e83aa6e0$@gmail.com> <8WLPhgIVRfmDC_3CVfIIHLLMKUSfvYweSblY3Xcmj-DooOYnmfUaIzQNeN4_h44VrH12O6NcTBLsB-Gwmq82QttujlHW7iIYi-m5tWNW4OE=@protonmail.com> <8FvwblCn59ruXFwi0PmInI6jZfQlircWvB_xCnB7bLDjjgwd_BYlrPayfB0bhlscrlGTrzBOBzYGfT6iOzddc6IvuVF5tLl_K36xhxSfW9Q=@protonmail.com> <1556261205513.2211097.1e39acf51b02952f7144a35088d0210e7292f731@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Hi Carsten, you are right, there is definitely some Euronaut inspiration my tube is 80mm diameter, 5mm thick. Emile hydro tested a portion to external pressure. (don t remember the pressure on top of my head, was around 40 bars I think). We had an issue with slight variability of the internal diameter, requiring adjusting machining of each plug/internal reinforcement ring. but as it is not a periscope but a buoy, there is a tradeoff with buoyancy and strength. I actually thought about adding a buoyancy ring mid way around the tube for better visibility and stability on surface. regards, Antoine On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:48 AM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Antoine, nice work, looks like a copy of Euronauts optronic mast.. :-) > > > > Its 100 x 10 mm by 2 meters acrylic and as pipe normaly use in the > chemical industry up to an internal pressur of 80 bars. > > > > Make sure that in not use condition it will be covered against sun light. > > > > https://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_2894.JPG > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T03:41:58+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Looks pretty impressive Antoine, > well done. > Alan > > On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > I did mention the tilting buoy. > it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two > caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure > I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker > beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection > between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or > thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy > upright. > the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach > to lifevests like > https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994 > the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool > (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I > tested it at night live and it works pretty well; > > > regards > Antoine > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board >> for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was >> activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of >> accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate >> knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy. >> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is >> what makes this site so valuable!!! >> Rick >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >>> 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question. >>>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen >>>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% >>>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to >>>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second >>>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and >>>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the >>>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same >>>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% >>>> oxygen, balance nitrogen. >>>> >>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the >>>> gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect >>>> comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a >>>> PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer >>>> to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser >>>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because >>>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression >>>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest >>>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still >>>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70 >>>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at >>>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100% >>>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Sean. >>>> >>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 ? 400 ft. Looking >>>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths. Then I can see >>>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the >>>> necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply >>>> it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. >>>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM >>>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic >>>> zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric >>>> pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency >>>> response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, >>>> prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can >>>> make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. >>>> If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then >>>> 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without >>>> surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for >>>> an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in >>>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at >>>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any >>>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only >>>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70. >>>> >>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement >>>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill >>>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas? >>>> >>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the >>>> minimum operating depth of the first gas. >>>> >>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a >>>> better safety margin. >>>> >>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities... >>>> >>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 >>>> CFM. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very well said Sean. >>>> >>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing >>>> decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at >>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub >>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no >>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may >>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause >>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue. >>>> >>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may >>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less >>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too >>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never >>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom >>>> bailout gas to verify its operation. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished >>>> doing so. >>>> >>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent >>>> examples of this. >>>> >>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of >>>> partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that >>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at >>>> 218 fsw. >>>> >>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also >>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber >>>> where tolerance is greater. >>>> >>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure >>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be >>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 >>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) >>>> >>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free >>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is >>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified >>>> understanding of it. >>>> >>>> The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and >>>> more quickly a person may be affected. >>>> >>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust >>>> that is enough to keep us alive. >>>> >>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities >>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. >>>> >>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to >>>> avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting >>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress >>>> could predispose to ox tox also. >>>> >>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest >>>> possibility of success. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via >>>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. >>>> And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is >>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Great analysis ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: >>>> >>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel >>>> qualified to comment on this. >>>> >>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is >>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired >>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. >>>> >>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium >>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to >>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into >>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated >>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. >>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death >>>> is inevitably drowning. >>>> >>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this >>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. >>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. >>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will >>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial >>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport >>>> oxygen into the body.. >>>> >>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. >>>> >>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... >>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to >>>> this discussion) >>>> >>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly >>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very >>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba. >>>> >>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when >>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas >>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning. >>>> >>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the >>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.) >>>> >>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this >>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%) >>>> >>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure >>>> using air. >>>> >>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, >>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. >>>> >>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient >>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is >>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing >>>> your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of >>>> approximately 218 ft. >>>> >>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A >>>> >>>> If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean, >>>> >>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub. >>>> >>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping >>>> >>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for >>>> >>>> escape for those classes of submersibles. >>>> >>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A >>>> conventional >>>> >>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't >>>> >>>> Inflate much against the water pressure. >>>> >>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms >>>> >>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 >>>> passenger. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the >>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? >>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable >>>> to leave the bottom. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming >>>> >>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the >>>> sub. >>>> >>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation >>>> required >>>> >>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down >>>> toward >>>> >>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near >>>> impossible >>>> >>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out >>>> anyway. >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to >>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just >>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine >>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now >>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure >>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. >>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened >>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose >>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your >>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 >>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized >>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free >>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize >>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits >>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid >>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and >>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at >>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would >>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to >>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are >>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at >>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws >>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface >>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me >>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> Rick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, >>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my >>>> whole life! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them >>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects >>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very >>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm >>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other >>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your input everybody! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Shanee, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all >>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple >>>> thing... a flashlight. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via >>>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or >>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *CG requirements* >>>> >>>> air horn >>>> >>>> whistle >>>> >>>> life jackets >>>> >>>> fire extinguisher >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *safety* >>>> >>>> fire blanket >>>> >>>> 2x scuba masks >>>> >>>> 2x spare air >>>> >>>> primary gas analyzer >>>> >>>> backup gas analyzer >>>> >>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered >>>> >>>> handheld radios >>>> >>>> uw radio system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *repair kit* >>>> >>>> gorilla tape >>>> >>>> electrical tape >>>> >>>> butyl tape >>>> >>>> zip tie assortment >>>> >>>> spare battery terminals >>>> >>>> spare wire connectors >>>> >>>> spare wire >>>> >>>> splash zone >>>> >>>> JB weld >>>> >>>> steel tie wire >>>> >>>> steel strap >>>> >>>> e6000 glue >>>> >>>> hose clamp assortment >>>> >>>> screwdriver set >>>> >>>> adjustable wrench >>>> >>>> multi-tool >>>> >>>> hammer >>>> >>>> scissors >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What's in your kits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Shanee >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal >>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness >>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo >>>> Levi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ::::: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a >>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it >>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human >>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves >>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of >>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other >>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of >>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other >>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities >>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, >>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 07:43:05 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:43:05 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dive manuals, checklists, operations and maintenance documentation Message-ID: Love it Shanee. Is it just me or does there seem to be a resurgence of interest in submersibles? A decade ago it appeared ROVs would completely replace them. For commercial work they pretty much have. OTOH, it appears a new generation of explorers and researchers want to rove the bottom of the seas themselves, peek through thick potholes, experience the wonder in person. Look at all the companies now selling million dollar versions. Well, most of us can't afford a Triton, so we make do. And have for years. But something feels different. And Shanee your ongoing story IMHO, is a prime example! Those who haven't seen it, check out Alec's "amateur" video of the Tahoe expedition. He beautifully caught the joy of young researchers. https://youtu.be/wx062xJ3G8o PSubs community - it feels like we're back and feeling the love! Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 08:17:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 12:17:37 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >>> >>> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >>> >>> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >>> >>> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >>> >>> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >>> >>> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >>> >>> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >>> >>> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >>> >>> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >>> >>> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >>> >>> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >>> >>> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> >>> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >>> >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >>> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >>> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >>> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >>> In shallower depths. >>> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >>> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >>> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >>> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >>>> >>>> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >>>> >>>> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >>>> >>>> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >>>> >>>> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >>>> >>>> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >>>> >>>> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steve Fordyce >>>> Melbourne, Australia >>>> >>>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>>>> Hank >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>>>> >>>>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>>>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>>>> >>>>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>>>> >>>>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>>>> >>>>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>>>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>>>> >>>>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>>>> What is a life worth? >>>>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>>>> >>>>> Food for thought anyhow. >>>>> >>>>> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36) >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>>> with an electro magnet. >>>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>>>> >>>>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>>>> >>>>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sean >>>>>> >>>>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> David Colombo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 804 College Ave >>>>>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>>>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>>>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>>> with an electro magnet. >>>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>>>> >>>>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>>>> >>>>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sean >>>>>> >>>>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> David Colombo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 804 College Ave >>>>>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>>>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>>>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> ? >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 10:12:07 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:12:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 Message-ID: I've been lurking on this board for several years now. I've built a couple surface boats and am an avid scuba diver. I'm also a blue collar metal worker,? so I pick my projects carefully. Can anyone comment on the actual materials cost of building a K350 ? I would be doing all of the welding, machining and fabricating myself. After i'm finished my current boat project,? this could be next. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 13:16:19 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (T Novak via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <004701d4fc53$c495e530$4dc1af90$@telus.net> These thoughts sound really good, Sean. This discussion reminds me of the time Nekton Beta, piloted by Richard Slater, was struck at 150 feet by a sinking speed boat, breaking a CT port and causing Beta to crash on the bottom at about 240 feet. Once Beta had flooded enough to equalize to ambient and allow the hatch to open, both Richard and his passenger Larry did a free ascent to the surface. Richard blacked out during the ascent and was found face down on the surface. He was successfully resuscitated. Larry did not survive. Slater probably suffered from shallow water blackout, common to apnea divers. Although he was exhaling all the way up for the two minutes it took, there was likely too low a PPO2 left in his lungs as he approached the surface. Richard Slater may still hold the record for the deepest unequipped successful ascent from a submarine. He did not mention feeling narked, but he did feel very peaceful, calm, and all was quiet when he deliberately ripped his jeans that were caught as he exited through the hatch. Calm and peaceful are feelings some divers have when they are narked on nitrogen, others may feel anxious and nervous. I think it would be best to wear a horse collar BCD like Alan suggests, carry a dive mask on board, don the mask as the sub floods. Exit through the hatch where a quick release 60cuft tank and regulator is available along with an emergency float to drag you to the surface, whereupon the float inflates into an emergency raft. All in all, this would likely only be successful for depths not much more than 200 feet, and would also depend on how you personally react to nitrogen narcosis. As some have suggested, the bailout bottle could contain heliox with a lower PPO2. Tim From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 5:18 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 14:55:39 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Hermann via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:55:39 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Mailing list in 2019? Message-ID: Hello everyone, I am very interested in the topic of personal submersibles, though at the moment I have neither the time nor the money to build one, so I am lurking in the mailing list. However I asked myself quite a few times why you use a mailing list in 2019? Every other community I know moved to a web based forum a long time ago, as it offers so many advantages. Is there a reason psubs chose to stay on the mailing-list format? Thanks Daniel From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 17:01:33 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:01:33 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >>> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >>> >>> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >>> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >>> >>> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >>> >>> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >>> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >>> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >>> >>> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >>> >>> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >>> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >>> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >>> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >>> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >>> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >>> In shallower depths. >>> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >>> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >>> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >>> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >>> >>> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >>> >>> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >>> >>> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >>> >>> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >>> >>> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >>> >>> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> Melbourne, Australia >>> >>>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>>> >>>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>>> >>>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>>> >>>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>>> >>>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>>> >>>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>>> What is a life worth? >>>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>>> >>>> Food for thought anyhow. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>> with an electro magnet. >>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>> with an electro magnet. >>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 17:45:20 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:45:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 19:27:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:27:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, I haven't quoted any 516Gr70 lately but I think if your really resourceful you might be able to build a basic K350 for about 30k (+/-) . Keep in mind the bare hull is the cheap part :) . Dan Lance On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:13 AM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I've been lurking on this board for several years now. I've built a couple > surface boats and am an avid scuba diver. > I'm also a blue collar metal worker, so I pick my projects carefully. > > Can anyone comment on the actual materials cost of building a K350 ? I > would be doing all of the welding, machining and fabricating myself. After > i'm finished my current boat project, this could be next. > > Cheers, > Tom > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 20:13:38 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 12:13:38 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 21:47:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 01:47:12 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 Message-ID: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 22:24:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:24:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ? Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going? to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge? of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan ? ? ? ? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ? More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were? filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an? 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.? So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan ? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft? tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan ? ? ? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ? Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this? 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths.? BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water? going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. ? My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. ? A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. ? Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. ? So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. ? Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. ? I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. ? Cheers, Steve Fordyce? Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank ? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? ? A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ? As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated? with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). ? When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. ? ? ? To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. ? Sean ? ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. ? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? ? As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated? with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). ? When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. ? ? ? To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. ? Sean ? ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. ? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 22:58:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:58:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Apr 26 23:22:49 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 15:22:49 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >>> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >>> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >>> >>> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >>> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >>> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >>> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >>> >>> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >>> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >>> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >>> for bouancy. >>> >>> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >>> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >>> >>> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >>> >>> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >>> >>> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >>> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >>> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sean / all, >>> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >>> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >>> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >>> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >>> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >>> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >>> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >>> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >>> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >>> escape from 100ft. >>> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >>> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >>> surface easy enough. >>> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >>> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >>> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >>> making stops if I felt able. >>> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >>> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >>> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >>> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >>> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >>> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >>> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> More thoughts on escape... >>> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >>> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >>> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >>> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >>> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >>> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >>> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >>> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >>> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >>> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >>> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >>> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >>> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >>> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >>> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thanks Carsten, >>> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >>> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >>> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >>> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >>> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >>> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >>> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >>> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >>> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >>> tank. >>> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >>> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >>> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >>> >>> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >>> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >>> >>> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >>> >>> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >>> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >>> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >>> >>> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >>> >>> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >>> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >>> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >>> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >>> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >>> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >>> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >>> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >>> In shallower depths. >>> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >>> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >>> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >>> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >>> >>> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >>> >>> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >>> >>> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >>> >>> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >>> >>> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >>> >>> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steve Fordyce >>> Melbourne, Australia >>> >>>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>>> >>>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>>> >>>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>>> >>>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>>> >>>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>>> >>>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>>> What is a life worth? >>>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>>> >>>> Food for thought anyhow. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>> with an electro magnet. >>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>>> with an electro magnet. >>>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>>> >>>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> David Colombo >>>> >>>> 804 College Ave >>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>>> (707) 536-1424 >>>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 27 02:35:00 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:35:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, the SeaQuestor used 2640lbs of 516gr70 steel for its hull. 3/8" hull x 9ft and 3/4" sails x 32"od x2. All told prior to welding 14k. Dan is right thats the cheap part of the build. David Colombo On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 4:29 PM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Tom, > I haven't quoted any 516Gr70 lately but I think if your really resourceful > you might be able to build a basic K350 for about 30k (+/-) . Keep in mind > the bare hull is the cheap part :) . > Dan Lance > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:13 AM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I've been lurking on this board for several years now. I've built a >> couple surface boats and am an avid scuba diver. >> I'm also a blue collar metal worker, so I pick my projects carefully. >> >> Can anyone comment on the actual materials cost of building a K350 ? I >> would be doing all of the welding, machining and fabricating myself. After >> i'm finished my current boat project, this could be next. >> >> Cheers, >> Tom >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 27 10:00:28 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 16:00:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <2120100201.205956.1556067371097@mail.yahoo.com> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1556373628592.2332176.b5f6f2e07326def83ce97c157ed02e0635349f80@spica.telekom.de> Alan there is a desinfection liquid for Hospital breathing mask, Gasmask and diver rebreather. You can use it to clean the BCD after using it for scuba diving. As emergency devices I would simple recommend simple use an unused new BCD. Desinfection like something like these here: https://www.google.com/search?q=desinfektionsmittel+rebreather&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3jtaUtPDhAhVBU1AKHeNXBR4Q_AUIDygC&biw=1130&bih=825 But at least a dive course were they training the emergency exit will also much help to bring you to the safer side. My deepest emergency surfaceing without a gear was from 24 meters (abt 80 feet) - my rebreather stalled. My deepest emergency surfaceing with scuba gear was from 42 meter (138feet), a sharp steel from the wreck of a WWII GB Submarine destroy my dry suit on one leg side and it start very cold and fast flooding. Lucky no bents or other issues after all - just exhaust. So I have some training with BCB, Dive gears and Steinke Hoods. If I should select I would first try the Steine Hood, than the BCD and at last a small scuba gear. Simple becuas the scuba gear gives you no extra bouancy. But this is my personal chooise. Other guys may have other preferences. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T02:15:15+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 27 10:10:40 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 16:10:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Apr 27 18:58:53 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 12:58:53 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: I used to have a BC back around 1968 that was called a Buoy Fenzy and it had it's own pony bottle attached to it for inflation and you could re fill the bottle by attaching it to a scuba tank to equalize or have shop fill it. It had a lot more volume than the CO2 inflation type and had a hose with a mouth piece and button to push to breath out of it if you had to. I haven't seen them for ages so must not be made anymore but this would be great to have on board for escape as it would give you a lot more air at depth than the CO2 type and you could breath off of it without loosing any air like a closed circuit system and a bit more air to breath as it expanded on ascent. Rick On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 4:11 AM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which > can expant into your blood. > > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than > with your lungs. > > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with > training it was easy over 2. > > > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine > exit is - training. > > > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the > last 10 meters to the surface. > > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it > will help a lot. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little > of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non > narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in > keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster > than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much > time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching > the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it > will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have > heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally > passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally > wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained > divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with > cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are > exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is > never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a > lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival > even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub > as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after > considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have > minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would > however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy > under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on > the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in > this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand > a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which > will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot > use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. > The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow > you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on >> the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can >> equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of >> mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of >> the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this >> tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the >> pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath >> from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you >> leave the sub. >> >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand >> all the >> >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you >> leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will >> leave via the overpressure vale. >> >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first >> filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may >> exhaust you also. >> >> >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a >> depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 >> liters which you need on the surface >> >> for bouancy. >> >> >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the >> valve to fill the vest. >> >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch >> the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 >> meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and >> dive gear including suits. >> >> >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was >> sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 >> meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence >> survifed all. >> >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the >> other guys to get out - >> >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for >> some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 >> seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner >> ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am >> only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears >> would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a >> simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could >> get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas >> some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to >> equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the >> surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & >> practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is >> going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you >> could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a >> knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce >> panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to >> the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting >> to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you >> should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood >> of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some >> of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as >> will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP >> than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff >> slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to >> illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an >> ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they >> were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse >> shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & >> large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it >> would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & >> having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus >> regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting >> on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, >> attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about >> 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button >> inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in >> an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a >> 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so >> it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard >> to get now) >> >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a >> course. >> >> >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled >> in a pool . >> >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in >> and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape >> exercice. >> >> >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub >> even from much greater dephts. >> >> >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a >> 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall >> resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on >> these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on >> the rope!" >> >> >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be >> encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as >> it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing >> water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as >> an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even >> then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so >> low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is >> (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be >> diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of >> airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's >> probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with >> the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning >> much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it >> makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a >> skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, >> high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a >> desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before >> you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do >> decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and >> thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy >> control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for >> survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a >> rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen >> on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself >> a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium >> if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" >> and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person >> shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above >> water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but >> will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life >> support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as >> realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and >> die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of >> winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and >> shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to >> escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a >> recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant >>> sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for >>> one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod >>> making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution >>> however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance >>> as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been >>> following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that >>> some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit >>> bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In >>> terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which >>> maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very >>> confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, >>> often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get >>> you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR >>> duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of >>> operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen >>> level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually >>> - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be >>> integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional >>> answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >>> submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >>> untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >>> for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on >>> release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >>> anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >>> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >>> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >>> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >>> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >>> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >>> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >>> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >>> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >>> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >>> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >>> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >>> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >>> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >>> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >>> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. >>> ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >>> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >>> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >>> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >>> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >>> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >>> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >>> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >>> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >>> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >>> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >>> dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >>> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >>> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >>> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >>> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >>> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >>> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >>> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >>> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >>> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >>> 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >>> submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >>> untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >>> for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on >>> release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >>> anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >>> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >>> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >>> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >>> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >>> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >>> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >>> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >>> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >>> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >>> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >>> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >>> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >>> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >>> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >>> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. >>> ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >>> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >>> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >>> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >>> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >>> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >>> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >>> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >>> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >>> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >>> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >>> dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >>> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >>> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >>> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >>> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >>> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >>> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >>> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >>> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >>> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >>> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >>> 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can > equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the > hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank > to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the > pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath > from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you > leave the sub. > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand > all the > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you > leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will > leave via the overpressure vale. > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first > filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may > exhaust you also. > > > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a > depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 > liters which you need on the surface > > for bouancy. > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the > valve to fill the vest. > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch > the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 > meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and > dive gear including suits. > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was > sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 > meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence > survifed all. > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other > guys to get out - > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for > some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 > seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner > ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am > only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears > would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could > get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas > some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to > equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the > surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & > practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is > going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you > could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a > knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce > panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the > surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to > limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you > should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood > of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some > of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as > will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP > than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff > slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to > illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an > ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they > were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse > shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & > large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it > would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having > an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting > on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, > attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about > 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button > inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in > an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a > 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so > it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard > to get now) > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a > course. > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in > a pool . > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in > and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape > exercice. > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even > from much greater dephts. > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a > 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall > resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on > these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on > the rope!" > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be > encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as > it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing > water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant >> sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for >> one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod >> making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution >> however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance >> as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been >> following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that >> some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit >> bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In >> terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which >> maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very >> confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, >> often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get >> you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR >> duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of >> operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen >> level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually >> - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be >> integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional >> answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >> submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >> untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >> for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >> anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. >> each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >> dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your >> submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down >> untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing >> for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if >> anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned >> SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you >> can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant >> emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the >> surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this >> specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly >> increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily >> then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even >> greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are >> not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion >> at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep >> to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need >> diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and >> experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need >> significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper >> decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. >> each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned >> depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the >> decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a >> small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you >> are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and >> rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you >> are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you >> approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency >> responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To >> be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is >> not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than >> dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, >> the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If >> you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but >> typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in >> a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the >> average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 >> minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with >> no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while >> blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality >> of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent >> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max >> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed >> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim >> 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 28 09:56:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:56:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1556459806010.2467875.0d0eae2b22bdca0e6193d1b2d29e3497d0dce6b6@spica.telekom.de> Rick we never discuss the co2 type. We discuss the BCD with the air pony bottle. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-28T01:00:42+0200 Von: "Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I used to have a BC back around 1968 that was called a Buoy Fenzy and it had it's own pony bottle attached to it for inflation and you could re fill the bottle by attaching it to a scuba tank to equalize or have shop fill it. It had a lot more volume than the CO2 inflation type and had a hose with a mouth piece and button to push to breath out of it if you had to. I haven't seen them for ages so must not be made anymore but this would be great to have on board for escape as it would give you a lot more air at depth than the CO2 type and you could breath off of it without loosing any air like a closed circuit system and a bit more air to breath as it expanded on ascent. Rick On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 4:11 AM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > wrote: Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Carsten, yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from the BCD. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve. Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sean / all, the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds grabbing an external tank won't be major. What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple escape from 100ft. As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the surface easy enough. If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface making stops if I felt able. There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. Alan On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: More thoughts on escape... Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would only get me to the surface from about 100ft. I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching the BCD connection and un latching the tank. It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 seconds. Any thoughts on this? Alan On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Thanks Carsten, I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft tank. I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be sitting in a sub doing nothing. Alan On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered In shallower depths. BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi all, This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. Cheers, Steve Fordyce Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. Hank On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. What is a life worth? How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated with an electro magnet. Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. Sean ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 28 10:04:32 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 16:04:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sgt.Peppers for sale 2019 In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1556460272392.2424942.e68d0a219dd24876718269f3b4f2be2bee0a7c8c@spica.telekom.de> I annouce here that the one man midget submarine Sgt.Peppers on his trailer is for sale by the new owner. Is has an complete overhault last year and is operational and in good condition. Fix price is 13.000 USD or 11.200 Euro. Be aware that these offer is not for fat people.. vbr Carsten ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 58673924_1220545658105273_6631230957275840512_n.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 177976 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Apr 28 15:31:43 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:31:43 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <76FE478C-FA57-4F05-9E04-A29E12D490A8@yahoo.com> Carsten, Will have to do a bit more homework on this one. If I went with a 12/65 Heliox mix as Sean suggested for a 400ft bail out, then I would have a lower O2 content & would be more prone to blacking out if I breath hold. Certainly there would be very little air expansion over the first couple of hundred feet. Alan > On 28/04/2019, at 2:10 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> Carsten, >> yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good >> practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need >> to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! >> I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the >> volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise >> your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 >> Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed >> gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. >> Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed >> gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, >> this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to >> act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony >> bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from >> the BCD. >> Alan >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. >> During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the >> time and leave via the overpressure valve. >> >> Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? >> Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. >> Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe >> vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. >> >> A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. >> If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. >> And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface >> for bouancy. >> >> In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. >> Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. >> >> If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. >> >> On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. >> >> On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. >> The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - >> and died later on decompression thickness. :-( >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Sean / all, >> the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some >> time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds >> grabbing an external tank won't be major. >> What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. >> I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. >> Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to >> feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. >> I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would >> be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple >> escape from 100ft. >> As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out >> relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the >> surface easy enough. >> If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some >> time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise >> & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface >> making stops if I felt able. >> There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a >> more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going >> to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise >> for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge >> of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. >> At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. >> BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. >> >> Sean >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> More thoughts on escape... >> Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. >> The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were >> filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe >> BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large >> tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would >> only get me to the surface from about 100ft. >> I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an >> 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator >> ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that >> a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. >> So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when >> outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching >> the BCD connection and un latching the tank. >> It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 >> seconds. Any thoughts on this? >> Alan >> >> >> On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Thanks Carsten, >> I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a >> 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). >> It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. >> I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. >> The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency >> you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation >> mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to >> slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. >> I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft >> tank. >> I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be >> sitting in a sub doing nothing. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) >> or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. >> >> Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. >> For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. >> >> Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. >> >> We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . >> First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. >> But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. >> >> With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. >> >> The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . >> And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. >> Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear >> Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 >> Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this >> 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. >> Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more >> probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered >> In shallower depths. >> BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it >> floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or >> you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water >> going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. >> >> My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. >> >> A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. >> >> Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. >> >> So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. >> >> Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. >> >> I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. >> >> Cheers, >> Steve Fordyce >> Melbourne, Australia >> >>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >>> Hank >>> >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> >>> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >>> >>> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >>> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >>> >>> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >>> >>> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >>> >>> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >>> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >>> >>> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >>> What is a life worth? >>> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >>> >>> Food for thought anyhow. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >>> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >>> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >>> with an electro magnet. >>> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >>> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >>> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >>> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >>> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >>> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >>> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >>> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >>> Alan >>> >>> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >>> >>> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >>> >>> >>> >>> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> ??????? Original Message ??????? >>> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> www.SeaQuestor.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > for bouancy. > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > vbr Carsten > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. >> Hank >> >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. >> >> If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. >> It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. >> >> KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. >> >> Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. >> >> On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. >> The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. >> >> It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. >> What is a life worth? >> How much risk can one accept for a hobby? >> >> Food for thought anyhow. >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, >> I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used >> for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated >> with an electro magnet. >> Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an >> automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed >> to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untill >> latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" >> The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for, >> but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release >> & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyone >> knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. >> Alan >> >> On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). >> >> When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. >> >> >> >> To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. >> >> Sean >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> www.SeaQuestor.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 29 19:03:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:03:37 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum Message-ID: <20190429160337.4C84D8F7@m0117164.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 29 20:31:42 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:31:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. > Cheers, > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> > Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to > buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give > some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 29 20:36:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm actually up in Canada Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:32 PM -0400, "Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. > Cheers, > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> > Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to > buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give > some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. > > Brian > > > > Get Outlook for Android > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 29 22:14:46 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:14:46 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum In-Reply-To: <20190429160337.4C84D8F7@m0117164.ppops.net> References: <20190429160337.4C84D8F7@m0117164.ppops.net> Message-ID: <7F5BE623-01A0-45F1-945A-57A15695D2A5@yahoo.com> Brian, I am wondering if it is worth doing! None of the Psubs do it that I know of ( correct me if I'm wrong). If you pulled a vacuum & the sub stayed at that pressure then you would need to pressurise the hull to get out! But good test to see that the hatch is sealing ok. Alan > On 30/04/2019, at 11:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi All, > Tried the Vacuum cleaner , shop vac , method of pulling a vacuum on the sub today. Works really great! I pulled about neg 2 psi and it pulled the hatch down instantly and is holding nicely. The large volume of air vacuum works a lot better than using a vacuum pump since it tends to pull surface area of the hatch all at once , where as when using the vacuum pump I remember having to sit on the hatch to make it grab. I'm trying to remember Phil Nuytten's procedure after the vacuum is pulled, was it to bring the cabin pressure gauge dial back to zero by turning the dial indicator? And with his bellows add system there was another adjustment I believe. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Apr 29 22:23:47 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:23:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum Message-ID: <20190429192347.4C8B3DD9@m0117568.ppops.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 05:03:04 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:03:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum In-Reply-To: <20190429192347.4C8B3DD9@m0117568.ppops.net> References: <20190429192347.4C8B3DD9@m0117568.ppops.net> Message-ID: <1556614984008.2704260.bf9cf0bc5b01b89c6bc244fe0f5ab51140f44274@spica.telekom.de> Why you not use just the Dieselengine for that purpose.. :-) -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum Datum: 2019-04-30T04:24:45+0200 Von: "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Alan, All you would need to do is open a valve. But I was mainly just doing it to test that I have everything back together that I took apart. It's a hell of a lot easier that hooking up a vacuum pump. The other thing is that if your hatch dogs are not compressing your hatch down very hard ( like mine ) then potentially if you were lingering at the surface right at the hatch level you could get some leakage passed the hatch o ring. Brian --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote: From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:14:46 +1200 Brian, I am wondering if it is worth doing! None of the Psubs do it that I know of ( correct me if I'm wrong). If you pulled a vacuum & the sub stayed at that pressure then you would need to pressurise the hull to get out! But good test to see that the hatch is sealing ok. Alan On 30/04/2019, at 11:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi All, Tried the Vacuum cleaner , shop vac , method of pulling a vacuum on the sub today. Works really great! I pulled about neg 2 psi and it pulled the hatch down instantly and is holding nicely. The large volume of air vacuum works a lot better than using a vacuum pump since it tends to pull surface area of the hatch all at once , where as when using the vacuum pump I remember having to sit on the hatch to make it grab. I'm trying to remember Phil Nuytten's procedure after the vacuum is pulled, was it to bring the cabin pressure gauge dial back to zero by turning the dial indicator? And with his bellows add system there was another adjustment I believe. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 07:06:51 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:06:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Vacuum vacuum In-Reply-To: <7F5BE623-01A0-45F1-945A-57A15695D2A5@yahoo.com> References: <20190429160337.4C84D8F7@m0117164.ppops.net> <7F5BE623-01A0-45F1-945A-57A15695D2A5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I always use the vacuum cleaner as a check before heading out to dive the sub. The Nuytco guys have a portable vacuum, so they do it before launching and as I recall actually launch the sub with a slight vacuum so they know the O rings are all seated. In my case, as I don't have a portable vacuum I just do it as a way to ensure the seals are in working order before I leave my garage. I simply hold the shop vac hose over the over-pressure valve for thirty seconds or so and watch the cabin pressure gauge through a viewport for ten minutes afterwards. If the needle doesn't move, we'll be watertight. Best, Alec On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:15 PM Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Brian, > I am wondering if it is worth doing! > None of the Psubs do it that I know of ( correct me if I'm wrong). > If you pulled a vacuum & the sub stayed at that pressure then you > would need to pressurise the hull to get out! But good test to see > that the hatch is sealing ok. > Alan > > On 30/04/2019, at 11:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > Tried the Vacuum cleaner , shop vac , method of pulling > a vacuum on the sub today. Works really great! I pulled about neg 2 psi > and it pulled the hatch down instantly and is holding nicely. The large > volume of air vacuum works a lot better than using a vacuum pump since it > tends to pull surface area of the hatch all at once , where as when using > the vacuum pump I remember having to sit on the hatch to make it grab. > I'm trying to remember Phil Nuytten's procedure after the vacuum is > pulled, was it to bring the cabin pressure gauge dial back to zero by > turning the dial indicator? And with his bellows add system there was > another adjustment I believe. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 07:34:29 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:34:29 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom , Please excuse me for assuming you live in the US . My bad ! If your up for it let's converse off the list . I might be able to help you with your K350 interest . Dan Lance , email: lanceind at gmail.com On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 8:36 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I'm actually up in Canada > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:32 PM -0400, "Daniel Lance via > Personal_Submersibles" wrote: > > Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? >> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. >>> Cheers, >>> Tom >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via >>> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >>> >>> Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >>>> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >>>> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>> Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >>> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >>> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> > Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. >> Cheers, >> Tom >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via >> Personal_Submersibles" wrote: >> >> Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >>> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >>> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >> Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to >> buy it and complete. Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give >> some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for Android >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 07:44:15 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180292276.2596054.1556624655991@mail.yahoo.com> Tom, where in Canada? ?nice to add another Canadian sub.Hank On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:34:56 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tom ,Please excuse me for assuming you live in the US . My bad !? If your up for it let's converse off the list . I might be able to help you with your K350 interest .Dan Lance ,? email: lanceind at gmail.com? On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 8:36 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm actually up in Canada Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:32 PM -0400, "Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 08:27:11 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:27:11 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K 350 In-Reply-To: <1180292276.2596054.1556624655991@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1180292276.2596054.1556624655991@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm located in Sault Ste Marie, ON. I'm not ready to begin another project just yet though as I still have a couple others that are outstanding! Tom Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 7:44 AM -0400, "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Tom, where in Canada? ?nice to add another Canadian sub.Hank On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:34:56 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tom ,Please excuse me for assuming you live in the US . My bad !? If your up for it let's converse off the list . I might be able to help you with your K350 interest .Dan Lance ,? email: lanceind at gmail.com? On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 8:36 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm actually up in Canada Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:32 PM -0400, "Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Tom, where in Canada? ?nice to add another Canadian sub.Hank On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:34:56 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Tom ,Please excuse me for assuming you live in the US . My bad !? If your up for it let's converse off the list . I might be able to help you with your K350 interest .Dan Lance ,? email: lanceind at gmail.com? On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, 8:36 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm actually up in Canada Get Outlook for Android On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:32 PM -0400, "Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Hey Tom Whent , What state in the US do you live in ? On Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 10:59 PM TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks ! I should buy a set of plans to see what I'm up against. Cheers, Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:47 PM -0400, "Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android Scott Waters had a K350 hull he was trying to sell. Might be cheaper to buy it and complete.? Mark Guetre is almost done with his. He could give some pointers. Both those guys are also on Facebook. Brian Get Outlook for Android _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 17:08:18 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:08:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2.? ? But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. ? The lung can overexpant easy? but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Thanks Tom, a lot to think about.Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as thegas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as yousay you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 17:42:12 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:42:12 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on > submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my > boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on > Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which > can expant into your blood. > > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than > with your lungs. > > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with > training it was easy over 2. > > > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine > exit is - training. > > > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the > last 10 meters to the surface. > > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it > will help a lot. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little > of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non > narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in > keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster > than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much > time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching > the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it > will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have > heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally > passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally > wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained > divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with > cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are > exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is > never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a > lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival > even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub > as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after > considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have > minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would > however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy > under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on > the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in > this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand > a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which > will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot > use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. > The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow > you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can > equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the > hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank > to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the > pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath > from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you > leave the sub. > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand > all the > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you > leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will > leave via the overpressure vale. > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first > filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may > exhaust you also. > > > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a > depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 > liters which you need on the surface > > for bouancy. > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the > valve to fill the vest. > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch > the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 > meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and > dive gear including suits. > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was > sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 > meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence > survifed all. > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other > guys to get out - > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for > some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 > seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner > ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am > only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears > would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could > get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas > some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to > equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the > surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & > practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is > going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you > could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a > knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce > panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the > surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to > limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you > should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood > of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some > of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as > will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP > than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff > slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to > illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an > ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they > were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse > shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & > large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it > would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having > an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting > on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, > attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about > 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button > inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in > an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a > 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so > it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard > to get now) > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a > course. > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in > a pool . > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in > and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape > exercice. > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even > from much greater dephts. > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a > 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall > resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on > these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on > the rope!" > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be > encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as > it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing > water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant > sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for > one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod > making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution > however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance > as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been > following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that > some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit > bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In > terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which > maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very > confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, > often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get > you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR > duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of > operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen > level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually > - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be > integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional > answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can > equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the > hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank > to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the > pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath > from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you > leave the sub. > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand > all the > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you > leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will > leave via the overpressure vale. > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first > filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may > exhaust you also. > > > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a > depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 > liters which you need on the surface > > for bouancy. > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the > valve to fill the vest. > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch > the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 > meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and > dive gear including suits. > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was > sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 > meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence > survifed all. > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other > guys to get out - > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for > some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 > seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner > ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am > only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears > would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could > get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas > some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to > equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the > surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & > practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is > going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you > could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a > knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce > panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the > surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to > limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you > should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood > of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some > of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as > will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP > than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff > slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to > illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an > ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they > were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse > shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & > large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it > would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having > an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting > on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, > attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about > 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button > inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in > an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a > 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so > it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard > to get now) > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a > course. > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in > a pool . > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in > and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape > exercice. > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even > from much greater dephts. > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a > 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall > resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on > these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on > the rope!" > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be > encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as > it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing > water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant > sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for > one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod > making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution > however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance > as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been > following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that > some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit > bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In > terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which > maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very > confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, > often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get > you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR > duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of > operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen > level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually > - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be > integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional > answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 17:47:37 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (JERRY KOONTZ via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:47:37 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: <2a43aa22-e345-4c45-b741-14360c1bd23e@iPhone> I used that device back in the 60?s when I was the diver on my submarine. We tested it from up to 500 feet. It is a very good device. Sent from Xfinity Connect App ------ Original Message ------ From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: April 30, 2019 at 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood.I use this appliance on my boat.Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > > > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > > > > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. > > > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. > > > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. > > > > > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. > > > > > > The lung can overexpant easybut this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. > > > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet&as you > say you could easily consume it&reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > > > Whatever solution you choose,it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > > > > Tom > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > Carsten, > > > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > > > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > > > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > > > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > > > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > > > your ears&what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent&O2 > > > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > > > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > > > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > > > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > > > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > > > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > > > bottle full of mixed gas&inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > > > the BCD. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > > > > > > > > > > > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > > > > > > > > > > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > > > > > > > > > > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A filled 220 bar by0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > > > > > > > > > > > > for bouancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > > > > > > > > > > > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > > > > > > > > > > > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > > > > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > > > > time while the submarine fills with water&equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > > > > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > > > > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums,&freezing water in the inner ear. > > > > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > > > > Some people have more problems than others equalising&once you start to > > > > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > > > > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > > > > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > > > > escape from 100ft. > > > > As Emile&Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > > > > relatively easily,&with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > > > > surface easy enough. > > > > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > > > > time after the equivalent of 150ft&this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > > > > &save my ears, then escape&use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > > > > making stops if I felt able. > > > > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan&practice, a > > > > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > > > > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > > > > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you&have a knowledge > > > > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > > > > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown&reduce panic. > > > > BTW I am a diver&amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > More thoughts on escape... > > > > > > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > > > > > > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > > > > > > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > > > > > > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD&large > > > > > > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it&it would > > > > > > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > > > > > > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas&having an > > > > > > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > > > > > > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80&a quick disconnect fitting on it that > > > > > > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > > > > > > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding&escaping, then when > > > > > > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > > > > > > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > > > > > > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed&done in about 15 > > > > > > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Carsten, > > > > > > > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > > > > > > > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > > > > > > > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation&push button inflation. > > > > > > > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > > > > > > > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > > > > > > > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > > > > > > > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > > > > > > > slow your ascent&do a decompression stop. > > > > > > > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > > > > > > > tank. > > > > > > > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > > > > > > > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second it willhelp you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > > > > > > > > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > > > > > > > > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > > > > > > > > probability that entanglements like ropes&nets are going to be encountered > > > > > > > > In shallower depths. > > > > > > > > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > > > > > > > > floods&you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > > > > > > > > you'll burst your ear drums,&aside from that pain, will have freezing water > > > > > > > > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Steve Fordyce > > > > > > > > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > > > > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,you will find none better. > > > > > > > > > > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > > > > > > > > > > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > > > > > > > > > > What is a life worth? > > > > > > > > > > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Food for thought anyhow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Carsten, > > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > > your ears&what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent&O2 > > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > > bottle full of mixed gas&inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > > the BCD. > > Alan > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > > > > > > > > > > > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > > > > > > > > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > > > > > > > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > > > > > > > > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > > > > > > > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A filled 220 bar by0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > > > > > > > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > > > > > > > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > > > > > > > > > for bouancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > > > > > > > > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > > > > > > > > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > > > > > > > > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > > > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > > > time while the submarine fills with water&equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > > > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > > > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums,&freezing water in the inner ear. > > > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > > > Some people have more problems than others equalising&once you start to > > > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > > > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > > > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > > > escape from 100ft. > > > As Emile&Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > > > relatively easily,&with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > > > surface easy enough. > > > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > > > time after the equivalent of 150ft&this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > > > &save my ears, then escape&use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > > > making stops if I felt able. > > > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan&practice, a > > > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > > > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > > > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you&have a knowledge > > > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > > > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown&reduce panic. > > > BTW I am a diver&amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > More thoughts on escape... > > > > > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > > > > > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > > > > > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > > > > > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD&large > > > > > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it&it would > > > > > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > > > > > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas&having an > > > > > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > > > > > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80&a quick disconnect fitting on it that > > > > > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > > > > > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding&escaping, then when > > > > > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > > > > > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > > > > > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed&done in about 15 > > > > > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Carsten, > > > > > > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > > > > > > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > > > > > > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation&push button inflation. > > > > > > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > > > > > > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > > > > > > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > > > > > > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > > > > > > slow your ascent&do a decompression stop. > > > > > > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > > > > > > tank. > > > > > > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > > > > > > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second it willhelp you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > > > > > > > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > > > > > > > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > > > > > > > probability that entanglements like ropes&nets are going to be encountered > > > > > > > In shallower depths. > > > > > > > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > > > > > > > floods&you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > > > > > > > you'll burst your ear drums,&aside from that pain, will have freezing water > > > > > > > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Steve Fordyce > > > > > > > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > > > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,you will find none better. > > > > > > > > > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > > > > > > > > > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > > > > > > > > > What is a life worth? > > > > > > > > > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Food for thought anyhow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 17:49:41 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:49:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <812267332.2990266.1556660981630@mail.yahoo.com> David, there was one on eBay recently but i asked the seller if the neck seal was stiff. ?Of coarse it is too stiff to fit over his head. ?Make sure the neck seal is supple, unless you want to fabricate a new seal.Hank On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 3:42:43 PM MDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2.? ? But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. ? The lung can overexpant easy? but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Thanks Tom, a lot to think about.Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as thegas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as yousay you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 17:54:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:54:58 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <812267332.2990266.1556660981630@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <812267332.2990266.1556660981630@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, I reached out to a possible lead as well. Thanks for the advice. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:51 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > David, there was one on eBay recently but i asked the seller if the neck > seal was stiff. Of coarse it is too stiff to fit over his head. Make sure > the neck seal is supple, unless you want to fabricate a new seal. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 3:42:43 PM MDT, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on > submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my > boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on > Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which > can expant into your blood. > > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than > with your lungs. > > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with > training it was easy over 2. > > > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine > exit is - training. > > > > The lung can overexpant easy but this will happend more or less on the > last 10 meters to the surface. > > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it > will help a lot. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as you > say you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little > of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non > narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in > keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards 2.7 times faster > than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much > time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching > the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it > will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have > heard that it is painful. > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally > passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally > wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained > divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with > cold hands or in panic. > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are > exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is > never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a > lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival > even if you do reach the surface. > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub > as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after > considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have > minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would > however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > Whatever solution you choose, it will have to be simple enough to deploy > under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on > the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in > this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand > a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which > will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot > use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. > The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow > you to pinch it for equalizing. > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > Tom > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can > equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the > hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank > to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the > pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath > from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you > leave the sub. > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand > all the > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you > leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will > leave via the overpressure vale. > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first > filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may > exhaust you also. > > > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a > depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 > liters which you need on the surface > > for bouancy. > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the > valve to fill the vest. > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch > the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 > meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and > dive gear including suits. > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was > sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 > meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence > survifed all. > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other > guys to get out - > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for > some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 > seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner > ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am > only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears > would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could > get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas > some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to > equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the > surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & > practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is > going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you > could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a > knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce > panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the > surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to > limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you > should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood > of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some > of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as > will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP > than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff > slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to > illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an > ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they > were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse > shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & > large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it > would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having > an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting > on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, > attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about > 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button > inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in > an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a > 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so > it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard > to get now) > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a > course. > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in > a pool . > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in > and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape > exercice. > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even > from much greater dephts. > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a > 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall > resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on > these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on > the rope!" > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be > encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as > it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing > water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant > sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for > one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod > making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution > however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance > as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been > following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that > some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit > bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In > terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which > maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very > confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, > often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get > you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR > duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of > operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen > level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually > - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be > integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional > answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > Carsten, > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can > equalise > your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2 > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the > hull, > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank > to > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the > pony > bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath > from > the BCD. > Alan > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you > leave the sub. > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand > all the > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you > leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will > leave via the overpressure vale. > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first > filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may > exhaust you also. > > > > A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a > depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 > liters which you need on the surface > > for bouancy. > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the > valve to fill the vest. > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch > the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 > meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and > dive gear including suits. > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was > sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 > meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence > survifed all. > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other > guys to get out - > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for > some > time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 > seconds > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner > ear. > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am > only guessing. > Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start to > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears > would > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > escape from 100ft. > As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could > get to the > surface easy enough. > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas > some > time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to > equalise > & save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the > surface > making stops if I felt able. > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & > practice, a > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is > going > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you > could equalise > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a > knowledge > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce > panic. > BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > Alan > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the > surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to > limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you > should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood > of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some > of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as > will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP > than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff > slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to > illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an > ascent as a diver would do it. > > Sean > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > More thoughts on escape... > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they > were > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse > shoe > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & > large > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it > would > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having > an > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting > on it that > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then when > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, > attaching > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about > 15 > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > Alan > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Carsten, > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & push button > inflation. > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in > an emergency > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > slow your ascent & do a decompression stop. > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a > 13 cu ft > tank. > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so > it won't be > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > Alan > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard > to get now) > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a > course. > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in > a pool . > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in > and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape > exercice. > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even > from much greater dephts. > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel. Otherwise a > 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall > resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on > these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on > the rope!" > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be > encountered > In shallower depths. > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as > it > floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing > water > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an > experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even > then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so > low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is > (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be > diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of > airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's > probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with > the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning > much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it > makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a > skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, > high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a > desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before > you even start on the escape. > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do > decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and > thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy > control is unlikely to be possible. > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for > survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a > rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen > on the surface. Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself > a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium > if it's enough to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" > and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person > shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above > water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but > will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life > support duration. Consider doing regular practise drills that are as > realistic as possible. > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die > with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging > it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they > are a bit better. > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to > escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a > recreational activity. > > Cheers, > Steve Fordyce > Melbourne, Australia > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant > sphere. I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for > one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod > making it big enough for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > Hank > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution > however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance > as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been > following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that > some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit > bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In > terms of robustness and deep water capability, you will find none better. > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which > maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very > confident in. > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, > often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get > you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR > duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of > operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen > level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually > - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be > integrated easily in one compact package. > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional > answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > What is a life worth? > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > Food for thought anyhow. > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your > submarine, > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > with an electro magnet. > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have an > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down > untill > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing > for, > but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > & retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if > anyone > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > Alan > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned > SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you > can reasonably carry. An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant > emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the > surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary. In this > specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly > increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily > then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even > greater risk. You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are > not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion > at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep > to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need > diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and > experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need > significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper > decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. > each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned > depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the > decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a > small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as an escapee you > are not so equipped. Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and > rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you > are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you > approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency > responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression. To > be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is > not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than > dying on the bottom. > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, > the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute. If > you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but > typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in > a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the > average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 > minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with > no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while > blowing down and locking out. You can judge for yourself the practicality > of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > Sean > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent > rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max > accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed > gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim > 60ft/min. > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 18:30:36 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 22:30:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> One question...what's the proper way to breath in that thing? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 19:22:52 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 23:22:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> Hood has a mouth piece and valve connected to the mouthpiece.? Prior to ascent, with the hood on you put mouthpiece in your mouth and breath cabin air through the hood? with the open valve.? Just prior to escape, you inflate the buoyancy bladder on the hood, remove the mouthpiece and close the hood valve.? From this point until you surface, you breath air in the hood. Excess air on ascent is vented out hood. At surface if you want to keep the hood on, you put the mouth piece back in and open the hood valve and breath surface air.? If sea state is low, you unzip the hood and breath normally. This topic is covered pretty well in training video. Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:31:31 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: One question...what's the proper way to breath in that thing? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 19:54:55 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:54:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Cliff, do you use the mouth inflate tube or do you have a hp air hose to fill the hood prior to escape? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 4:24 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hood has a mouth piece and valve connected to the mouthpiece. Prior to > ascent, with the hood on you put mouthpiece in your mouth and breath cabin > air through the hood with the open valve. Just prior to escape, you > inflate the buoyancy bladder on the hood, remove the mouthpiece and close > the hood valve. From this point until you surface, you breath air in the > hood. Excess air on ascent is vented out hood. At surface if you want to > keep the hood on, you put the mouth piece back in and open the hood valve > and breath surface air. If sea state is low, you unzip the hood and breath > normally. > > This topic is covered pretty well in training video. > > Cliff > > On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:31:31 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > One question...what's the proper way to breath in that thing? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on > submarine escape, you might want enjoy this. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood. I use this appliance on my > boat. Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on > Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 20:11:58 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 00:11:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1121636657.715220.1556669518539@mail.yahoo.com> Sorry to make you type all that Cliff.? I was trying to be funny...looking for "breath through YOUR MOUTH" which is stated repeatedly in the video like the 800 number of a infomercial.? :) :) From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Hood has a mouth piece and valve connected to the mouthpiece.? Prior to ascent, with the hood on you put mouthpiece in your mouth and breath cabin air through the hood? with the open valve.? Just prior to escape, you inflate the buoyancy bladder on the hood, remove the mouthpiece and close the hood valve.? From this point until you surface, you breath air in the hood. Excess air on ascent is vented out hood. At surface if you want to keep the hood on, you put the mouth piece back in and open the hood valve and breath surface air.? If sea state is low, you unzip the hood and breath normally. This topic is covered pretty well in training video. Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:31:31 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: One question...what's the proper way to breath in that thing? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 21:12:54 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 01:12:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: References: <20190422200357.23F57DD2@m0117566.ppops.net> <1556178142178.2035848.9649dadcaec0078672b275bc2126cf0842d4ed8d@spica.telekom.de> <3C296FC9-BC33-42CC-A5C0-92C43885E4D7@yahoo.com> <11E613BF-8C90-49EA-ADA2-1D5CE36A1F10@yahoo.com> <3fM-QQlGpBki2lSd0VjqwWY9fHIAIuiSwNYihOHDYK7uKceKp-wHcsRB6NBTbHzWXy4aTSS2-4BN3Q2HH9I2lDjr4xM86rmWtgFU-3-s4UI=@protonmail.com> <66D57064-F047-4563-97C9-F521F82D7F4F@yahoo.com> <1556315120712.2333001.0d96ef471b2db27d3c4b4eaefebb5fd26ef18de8@spica.telekom.de> <00082B36-DA44-415D-9954-B68C1B469145@yahoo.com> <1556374240246.2312539.9deb7690a77b098f228329022927fa3197ff98f5@spica.telekom.de> <952479680.2946517.1556658498150@mail.yahoo.com> <44048219.2862896.1556663436191@mail.yahoo.com> <1031642849.3059352.1556666572028@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <782278062.3036131.1556673174487@mail.yahoo.com> I have a LP air disconnect in the boat for my BIBS second stage regulator.? I could use this to inflate the Steinke Hood but as of now, I just use the oral inflater on the appliance. Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 6:56:02 PM CDT, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Cliff, do you use the mouth inflate tube or do you have a hp air hose to fill the hood prior to escape? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 4:24 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hood has a mouth piece and valve connected to the mouthpiece.? Prior to ascent, with the hood on you put mouthpiece in your mouth and breath cabin air through the hood? with the open valve.? Just prior to escape, you inflate the buoyancy bladder on the hood, remove the mouthpiece and close the hood valve.? From this point until you surface, you breath air in the hood. Excess air on ascent is vented out hood. At surface if you want to keep the hood on, you put the mouth piece back in and open the hood valve and breath surface air.? If sea state is low, you unzip the hood and breath normally. This topic is covered pretty well in training video. Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 5:31:31 PM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: One question...what's the proper way to breath in that thing? From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 21:17:22 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 01:17:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear In-Reply-To: <2a43aa22-e345-4c45-b741-14360c1bd23e@iPhone> References: <2a43aa22-e345-4c45-b741-14360c1bd23e@iPhone> Message-ID: <1355913952.3075995.1556673442733@mail.yahoo.com> Jerry, I would be very interested to hear more about your experience with the Steinke Hood.? What was the deepest you used the unit?? Did you go through one of the Navy training facilities get training on the unit.? Paperwork on unit and Video calls out 450 ft max depth.? Can you discuss this 500 ft test? Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 4:49:00 PM CDT, JERRY KOONTZ via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I used that device back in the 60?s when I was the diver on my submarine. We tested it from up to 500 feet. It is a very good device. Sent from Xfinity Connect App ------ Original Message ------ From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: April 30, 2019 at 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles wrote: If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs The training is on using the Steinke Hood.? I use this appliance on my boat.? Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. Cliff On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2.? ? But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. ? The lung can overexpant easy? but this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Thanks Tom, a lot to think about.Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as thegas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet & as yousay you could easily consume it & reduce your flotation.Alan On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards? 2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. Whatever solution you choose,? it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. The hood and escape suits look better all the time. Tom Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?Carsten,yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a goodpractice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would needto find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on thevolume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equaliseyour ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed?gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixedgas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull,this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank toact as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the ponybottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath fromthe BCD.Alan?? On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the time and leave via the overpressure valve.? ? Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. ? A filled 220 bar by? 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface for bouancy. ? In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. ? If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. ? On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. ? On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - and died later on decompression thickness. :-( ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Sean / all,the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for sometime while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15 secondsgrabbing an external tank won't be major.What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the inner ear.I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing.Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start tofeel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears wouldbe an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simpleescape from 100ft.As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get outrelatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to thesurface easy enough.If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas sometime after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to equalise& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surfacemaking stops if I felt able.There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan & practice, amore complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going?to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalisefor varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a knowledge?of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce panic.BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces.Alan???? On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: ?More thoughts on escape...Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles.The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were?filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoeBCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD & largetank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it & it wouldonly get me to the surface from about 100ft.I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas & having an?80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick disconnect fitting on it thata hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.?So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping, then whenoutside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attachingthe BCD connection and un latching the tank.It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed & done in about 15seconds. Any thoughts on this?Alan? On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Thanks Carsten,I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation & ?push button inflation.I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergencyyou could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflationmouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance toslow your ascent & do a decompression stop.I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft?tank.I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't besitting in a sub doing nothing.Alan??? On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. ? Second it will? help you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. ? We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool .? First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. ? With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. ? The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.? Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" ? vbr Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this?100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is moreprobability that entanglements like ropes & nets are going to be encounteredIn shallower depths.?BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as itfloods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end oryou'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain, will have freezing water?going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi all,This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person.?My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.?A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape.?Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.?So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.? Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.? Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.? Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible.?Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.?I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity.?Cheers,Steve Fordyce?Melbourne, Australia On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.? I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.? An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.? E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere.Hank?On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles wrote:??A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,? you will find none better.It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent.The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water.What is a life worth?How much risk can one accept for a hobby? Food for thought anyhow. Get Outlook for Android On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" wrote: ? ?As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ??As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine,I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is usedfor surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated?with an electro magnet.Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism & have anautomatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixedto the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring & let down untilllatch attaches to submarine. Pull up"The automatic latch is a device that Phil described & provided a drawing for,but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching & if anyoneknows of one that may be suitable I would be interested.Alan On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.? An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.? In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.? You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.).?When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.? Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.? Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.? To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom.???To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.? If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.? At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.? You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes.?Sean???????? Original Message ???????On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.?Best Regards,David Colombo804 College AveSanta Rosa, CA. 95404(707) 536-1424www.SeaQuestor.com ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Apr 30 22:52:31 2019 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (JERRY KOONTZ via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:52:31 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Message-ID: <4e754011-ecd9-4136-a4a6-32d77d4cf2e8@iPhone> I was one of many that tested the device. We all did several simulated escapes from different depths and escape methods. One escape was from 500 feet, it worked but very iffy. As a result of our test escapes it was determined by those in the know to set the escape depth to what they felt was a save depth. Sent from Xfinity Connect App ------ Original Message ------ From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles To: JERRY KOONTZ via Personal_Submersibles Sent: April 30, 2019 at 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Jerry, I would be very interested to hear more about your experience with the Steinke Hood.What was the deepest you used the unit?Did you go through one of the Navy training facilities get training on the unit.Paperwork on unit and Video calls out 450 ft max depth.Can you discuss this 500 ft test? Cliff On Tuesday, April 30, 2019, 4:49:00 PM CDT, JERRY KOONTZ via Personal_Submersibleswrote: I used that device back in the 60?s when I was the diver on my submarine. We tested it from up to 500 feet. It is a very good device. Sent from Xfinity Connect App ------ Original Message ------ From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: April 30, 2019 at 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear Thanks Cliff, Great instructional video. Now to find one! Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 2:09 PM Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > If you have not had a chance to see this old US Navy training film on submarine escape, you might want enjoy this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOJEJwWSbs > > The training is on using the Steinke Hood.I use this appliance on my boat.Even though it is getting harder to find this hoods, they surface on Ebay periodically. > > Cliff > > On Saturday, April 27, 2019, 9:11:53 AM CDT,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > Why you want to breath the first minute of your fly? > > > Just ensure that the gas can get out of our lungs to not overpressure it. > > > > And by the way - if you not breath you can not get additional gas which can expant into your blood. > > > And how long you can stop breathing has more to do with your brain - than with your lungs. > > > I am now 54 and can stop not more than 1 minute. In my best time and with training it was easy over 2. > > > > > > But this is pure theoretical. The best equipment to surfive a submarine exit is - training. > > > > > > The lung can overexpant easybut this will happend more or less on the last 10 meters to the surface. > > > If you have the training and expierence to slow down your speed there it will help a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > Datum: 2019-04-27T05:24:20+0200 > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom, a lot to think about. > Yes breathing from the BCD could be problematic on a deep ascent as the > gas would be expanding very little over the first few hundred feet&as you > say you could easily consume it&reduce your flotation. > Alan > > On 27/04/2019, at 2:24 PM, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > That is a whole lot of task loading for an emergency. Chances are little of this will be reflexive from repeated practice. Having a good non narcotic gas to breathe during flood/exit procedures would be beneficial in keeping your head. Keep in mind that helium on boards2.7 times faster than nitrogen and also comes out of your tissues that much faster. Too much time breathing on it might cause you to be severely bent before reaching the surface on a fast ascent. Most helium bends occur under water and it will even off gas through your eyes. I've never experienced this but I have heard that it is painful. > > > > Breathing from a BCD seems like a bad idea to me. It would be marginally passable as long as you are certain that you are ascending. Accidentally wasting or venting your buoyancy gas would be disastrous. Many trained divers struggle with buoyancy control and can't manipulate inflators with cold hands or in panic. > > > > Coming up fast from any depth, you will need to ensure that you are exhaling continually, or able to breath in and out so that your airway is never closed. You have no pain mechanism in your body to alert you to a lung overpressure. If you rupture a lung you have no chance of survival even if you do reach the surface. > > > > I had thought about the idea of wearing a neoprene wetsuit inside the sub as an alternate means of buoyancy and environmental protection but after considering the depths you guys are escaping from, that too would have minimal buoyancy due to the crush on the suit from the pressure. It would however provide some warmth, even if marginally. > > > > Whatever solution you choose,it will have to be simple enough to deploy under the worst conditions imaginable and preferably protect your airway on the surface if you should lose consciousness. > > > > I'm generally not an advocate of full face masks for scuba diving, but in this circumstance, if you had one and a means of flotation, you would stand a better chance of survival than using a regulator (or BCD inflator) which will fall out of your mouth if you lose consciousness. You generally cannot use the firefighter style face mask, but must use one designed for diving. The reason being that the latter will have a flexible nose pocket to allow you to pinch it for equalizing. > > The hood and escape suits look better all the time. > > > > > > Tom > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 8:14 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > Carsten, > > > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > > > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > > > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > > > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > > > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > > > your ears&what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent&O2 > > > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > > > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > > > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > > > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > > > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > > > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > > > bottle full of mixed gas&inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > > > the BCD. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > > > > > > > > > > > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > > > > > > > > > > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > > > > > > > > > > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A filled 220 bar by0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > > > > > > > > > > > > for bouancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > > > > > > > > > > > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > > > > > > > > > > > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > > > > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > > > > time while the submarine fills with water&equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > > > > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > > > > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums,&freezing water in the inner ear. > > > > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > > > > Some people have more problems than others equalising&once you start to > > > > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > > > > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > > > > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > > > > escape from 100ft. > > > > As Emile&Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > > > > relatively easily,&with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > > > > surface easy enough. > > > > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > > > > time after the equivalent of 150ft&this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > > > > &save my ears, then escape&use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > > > > making stops if I felt able. > > > > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan&practice, a > > > > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > > > > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > > > > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you&have a knowledge > > > > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > > > > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown&reduce panic. > > > > BTW I am a diver&amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > More thoughts on escape... > > > > > > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > > > > > > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > > > > > > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > > > > > > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD&large > > > > > > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it&it would > > > > > > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > > > > > > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas&having an > > > > > > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > > > > > > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80&a quick disconnect fitting on it that > > > > > > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > > > > > > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding&escaping, then when > > > > > > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > > > > > > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > > > > > > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed&done in about 15 > > > > > > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Carsten, > > > > > > > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > > > > > > > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > > > > > > > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation&push button inflation. > > > > > > > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > > > > > > > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > > > > > > > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > > > > > > > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > > > > > > > slow your ascent&do a decompression stop. > > > > > > > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > > > > > > > tank. > > > > > > > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > > > > > > > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second it willhelp you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > > > > > > > > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > > > > > > > > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > > > > > > > > probability that entanglements like ropes&nets are going to be encountered > > > > > > > > In shallower depths. > > > > > > > > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > > > > > > > > floods&you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > > > > > > > > you'll burst your ear drums,&aside from that pain, will have freezing water > > > > > > > > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Steve Fordyce > > > > > > > > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > > > > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,you will find none better. > > > > > > > > > > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > > > > > > > > > > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > > > > > > > > > > What is a life worth? > > > > > > > > > > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Food for thought anyhow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > Carsten, > > yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good > > practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need > > to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency! > > I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the > > volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can equalise > > your ears&what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent&O2 > > Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed > > gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised. > > Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed > > gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the hull, > > this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank to > > act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the pony > > bottle full of mixed gas&inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath from > > the BCD. > > Alan > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you leave the sub. > > > > > > > > > > > > During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest expand all the > > > > > > > > > time and leave via the overpressure valve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you leave the sub in 100 meter deeps? > > > > > > > > > Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will leave via the overpressure vale. > > > > > > > > > Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first filling- so you have not to fill tthe > > > > > > > > > vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may exhaust you also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A filled 220 bar by0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand gas. > > > > > > > > > If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts. > > > > > > > > > And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last 4 liters which you need on the surface > > > > > > > > > for bouancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the valve to fill the vest. > > > > > > > > > Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4 meter depth pool to get an feeling for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods and dive gear including suits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40 meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence survifed all. > > > > > > > > > The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the other guys to get out - > > > > > > > > > and died later on decompression thickness. :-( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200 > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean / all, > > > the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for some > > > time while the submarine fills with water&equalises. So the extra 15 seconds > > > grabbing an external tank won't be major. > > > What I fear most is bursting my ear drums,&freezing water in the inner ear. > > > I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am only guessing. > > > Some people have more problems than others equalising&once you start to > > > feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise. > > > I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your ears would > > > be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a simple > > > escape from 100ft. > > > As Emile&Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get out > > > relatively easily,&with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you could get to the > > > surface easy enough. > > > If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas some > > > time after the equivalent of 150ft&this would buy me a bit of time to equalise > > > &save my ears, then escape&use my large mixed gas tank to go to the surface > > > making stops if I felt able. > > > There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan&practice, a > > > more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it is going > > > to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you could equalise > > > for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you&have a knowledge > > > of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from. > > > At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown&reduce panic. > > > BTW I am a diver&amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight spaces. > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > More thoughts on escape... > > > > > Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony bottles. > > > > > The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu ft they were > > > > > filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use of a horse shoe > > > > > BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub wearing a BCD&large > > > > > tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to import it&it would > > > > > only get me to the surface from about 100ft. > > > > > I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed gas&having an > > > > > 80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an octopus regulator > > > > > ( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80&a quick disconnect fitting on it that > > > > > a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow. > > > > > So you breath through your pony reg while flooding&escaping, then when > > > > > outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast hose, attaching > > > > > the BCD connection and un latching the tank. > > > > > It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed&done in about 15 > > > > > seconds. Any thoughts on this? > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Carsten, > > > > > > I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse collar BCD with a > > > > > > 13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below). > > > > > > It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation&push button inflation. > > > > > > I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well. > > > > > > The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your air to last in an emergency > > > > > > you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the manual inflation > > > > > > mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you have the chance to > > > > > > slow your ascent&do a decompression stop. > > > > > > I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come up from with a 13 cu ft > > > > > > tank. > > > > > > I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for snorkelling, so it won't be > > > > > > sitting in a sub doing nothing. > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM,MerlinSub at t-online.de(mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de)via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a Steinke hood (hard to get now) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air bottle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make an fast rise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will help muxh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second it willhelp you a lot if you allready a diver or had make a course. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi finish Psub scuttled in a pool . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First go out were really bad feelings and schock about the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in mind: panic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun to do the escape exercice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With training and the right gear I see no problem to get out of a sub even from much greater dephts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the reel.Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away with a sub sunken in 30 m . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it - say 150 Kg at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as you could do this > > > > > > > 100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing. > > > > > > > Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper there is more > > > > > > > probability that entanglements like ropes&nets are going to be encountered > > > > > > > In shallower depths. > > > > > > > BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase incrementally quicker as it > > > > > > > floods&you need to keep equalising your ears like mad toward the end or > > > > > > > you'll burst your ear drums,&aside from that pain, will have freezing water > > > > > > > going in to your inner ear. That would increase your chances of failure. > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave diver rather than a sub person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My feel is that unless the escapee is an experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely false sense of security - and energy should be diverted elsewhere to reduce risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden immersion are likely to cause death by drowning much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit. Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in itself. You're probably already suffering from fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate point. All of these cause significant mental impairment before you even start on the escape. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up, switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest the best chance for survival is to plan on a very simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent medical attention and oxygen on the surface.Maybe carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give yourself a better chance of being able to think, but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough to be useful.Use a divers (with closed bottom) "lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a quick and easy way to get a person shooting upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but will expand on way up) Might be better put towards things like extra life support duration.Consider doing regular practise drills that are as realistic as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in stressful situations and die with sad regularity. Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of winging it at depth will be anything other than tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB diving, the inability to escape is just one of those residual risks that can be accepted for a recreational activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Steve Fordyce > > > > > > > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think all submarines should have an escape pod or jettisoning occupant sphere.I admit I made a mistake with my escape pod by making it only for one.An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and that is to stretch the pod making it big enough for two.E3000 has a jettisoning occupant sphere. > > > > > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A compact bail out rebreather might be the most surviveable solution however it would require a significant commitment in training, maintenance as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I personally have not been following the development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm aware that some are working on this. My dive group relies on planning for open circuit bailout in the event of rebreather failure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and deep water capability,you will find none better. > > > > > > > > > It will get you home and flies itself. It is an electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user. This is the unit I dive myself and feel very confident in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the used market in affordable price ranges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both would require significant equipment specific training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam with only two small cylinders and gas to spare. CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is the same irrespective of operational depth. Even the lowest end units will give you an hour plus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be monitoring the oxygen level display in the breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a fast ascent. > > > > > > > > > The other benefit of this setup is that an air cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one compact package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver, but it is a functional answer to the risks of a sub disabled in deep water. > > > > > > > > > What is a life worth? > > > > > > > > > How much risk can one accept for a hobby? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Food for thought anyhow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GetOutlook for Android(https://aka.ms/ghei36) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > As an alternative to possible death or even worse, the loss of your submarine, > > > > > > > > > I am in early stages of designing a buoy release mechanism that is used > > > > > > > > > for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon that can be activated > > > > > > > > > with an electro magnet. > > > > > > > > > Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a tensioning mechanism&have an > > > > > > > > > automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide down the braid but is fixed > > > > > > > > > to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope to the ring&let down untill > > > > > > > > > latch attaches to submarine. Pull up" > > > > > > > > > The automatic latch is a device that Phil described&provided a drawing for, > > > > > > > > > but there may be a cheap&suitable automatic boat latch ( used on release > > > > > > > > > &retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am still searching&if anyone > > > > > > > > > knows of one that may be suitable I would be interested. > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a significant difference between submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive with regard to both the dive profile and the equipment that you can reasonably carry.An escape is more akin to what is known as a buoyant emergency ascent in recreational diving, where you need to get to the surface yesterday and all other considerations are secondary.In this specific case, trying to keep to a slow ascent rate would significantly increase the incurred decompression obligation that you must necessarily then blow off as you ascend through the shallows, introducing an even greater risk.You also have the hypothermia issue to deal with if you are not equipped with exposure protection specifically intended for submersion at depth. Being cold reduces decompression effectiveness. In order to keep to a target ascent rate or perform decompression stops, you would need diving instrumentation (depth gauge and timer), would need the skills and experience to perform gas switches and hold stops, and would need significantly more bulky equipment to have enough gas to perform a proper decompression (slow ascent, gas switches, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for the planned depth and time), plus three or four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25, EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of argon for drysuit inflation.Obviously, as an escapee you are not so equipped.Far better to lockout as quickly as possible and rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get clear of those depths where you are ongassing the most, and if at all possible, to slow the ascent as you approach the surface, and then have your surface support or emergency responders administer oxygen as transport is arranged to recompression.To be clear, an emergency escape from a disabled submarine at these depths is not even remotely a good idea - it is simply a marginally better idea than dying on the bottom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To illustrate, if you were to attempt a continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5 atmospheres absolute.If you assume a surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. / minute (high, but typical of a diver who is stressed or working hard, which is inevitable in a submarine escape scenario), that corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the average depth of the ascent.At a 30 ft/min ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft. of gas consumed just for the continuous ascent with no decompression stops, without consideration for the gas consumed while blowing down and locking out.You can judge for yourself the practicality of carrying an 80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency escape purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibleswrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > David Colombo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 804 College Ave > > > > > > > > > > > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > > > > > > > > > > > (707) 536-1424 > > > > > > > > > > > www.SeaQuestor.com(http://www.SeaQuestor.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org(mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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